Thread: Oil colour after service?

Originally Posted by cafe latte

Thanks, if this is fresh oil I am more convinced about 10k oil changes, 20k would be very black.
Chris

Chris, FYI, I just checked my oil, not far off 10,000km and it's a lot darker than your pics of dipstick. While I'm not a professional mechanic, I've done many oil changes over the years. I suspect yours is just residue of old oil colouring new oil. But happy to be corrected anytime by a pro.

While a related but separate issue to your original question, all this oil tech discussion is great to read, thanks guys, especially semi-synthetic vs full synthetic. However while in warranty surely we can really only go by LR specified oil: Castrol Professional 5W40.

What needs to be taken into consideration is the specification of the oils that are available now days, and the efficiency of the combustion process and fuel metering.
Back in the old days when oils were not so refined, fuel metering was poor, and the level of soot out of the exhaust was the same as an old Layland bus, you had to change your oil every 5000Km.
I change my oil every 20,000km as my Defender is mostly a highway commute averaging 50,000km a year, engine oil reaches temperature which cooks off any condensation contamination in the oil.
If it was a city vehicle I would change the oil every 10,000Km as there is more oil contamination.
Oil is supposed to get dirty as it captures minute suspended particles of carbon, which can be drained away, oil life is effected on the ability of the polymer chains to bind the oil together to hold the shear strength of the oil film between bearing surfaces, going too long between oil changes, oil contamination from condensation, coolant leakage, overheating all reduce the ability of the oil to maintain the shear strength.

Originally Posted by cafe latte

What point at which the oil changes are excessive I dont know, but IMO changing the oil before carbon has change to build up is wise and if the oil is starting to get black it is a good time which seems is way before 20k.
Chris

Soot is only one factor, air filtration is probably the most important factor in oil life, followed by usage.
From what I know and been told short trips will kill an oil faster than soot loading will create wear
.
The short trips allow moisture buildup, the moisture reacts with combustion by-products and becomes acidic, the alkalinity reserve built into the oil (measured by a scale, Total Base Number, TBN) becomes depleted, the additive package becomes depleted trying to continue protecting and on it goes.
At this point we could still have a relatively clean looking oil.

Fuel dilution and coolant contamination mean all bets are off. The oil is toast, nothing can protect against those two, and we'll still have relatively clean looking oil.

We can also have the situation I talked of above with the TD42T Patrol engine.
It's an indirect injected engine so supposedly dirty, and the oil did get black pretty quickly but the test results kept saying the oil was fine so I kept pushing the change intervals out to where it sounded crazy being a Japanese diesel engine but wear was minimised and we were saving money.
At that time the ex was racking up about 12,500km a month towing horses to competitions, clinics, vets, etc.

When it stopped doing those silly miles and relatively shorter trips I pulled the OCI back to 10,000km

That engine is up around 500,000km now and AFAIK running like a top, just a little puff of oil smoke from valve stem seals on a trailing throttle first thing in the morning when I last saw it five or so months ago.

Originally Posted by DazzaTD5

haha good on you Frank..... thats all I was looking for, some actual real world experience and not just a comment from another arm chair mechanic.

I'm aware of and agree with the need for a break-in or run-in oil, everytime I do a small diesel engine rebuild I use a low spec diesel oil (for the benefit of others, a small diesel engine is anything in a 4WD, Land Rover or a light truck, Isuzu etc). The industry I came from originally is the Crane, Mobile Elevated Work Platforms, Generators. We had the flexibility to change oil specs on engines to suit different load environments, this was especially useful with diesel generators (upto 600Kva). Doing exactly as you mentioned, a different oil for run in hours.

Unfortunately owners of light vehicles dont have that option, if they want to keep their warranty, they have to use an oil that meets the manufacturers specs. (a manufacturers spec is generally an easy requirement for an oil company to meet or exceed, unlike ISO standards).

With all due respect, as a tradesman I am aware of the need for detergent oils in diesel engines. Where I can I use a semi synthetic diesel oil (Penrite HPR Diesel 5 semi synthetic) for most vehicles I work on (I pretty well only do diesels), Jeep, Land Rover a like, and only go to a full synthetic when the semi synthetic doesnt meet the required spec, such as DPF/DPD equipped vehicles. As it meets numerous Ford specs its perfect for use in new Defender TDCi models. Diesels Ive been servicing from new that have been running on semi synthetic engine oil are the ones with high km's on them now and run better than new ones that have had servicing done using a full synthetic.

To further what you have said and in agreement, I've had engines come in where they have had many km's running on full synthetic and gotten a bit blue smokey on idle, I've changed them over to Penrite HPR Diesel 5 5W40 and have come good by the next oil change.

I'm in full agreement to what you have said, except the "its a waste of oil" but did add that 10,000km servicing is perfectly acceptable and pointing that 20,000kms isnt so good.

just as a side note for the odd customer that gets all funny about me putting a "semi synthetic" into their Jeep or Land Rover because "they only use the best fully synthetic by royal oil company bluh bluh bluh" .....

The oil you buy thats labeled "full synthetic" if it doesnt have "PAO or Ester base" on it..... then its Mineral oil, same goes for "semi synthetic", its mineral oil. Its a loop hole in legality that allows oil companies to label products as such. Saying that modern engine oil is so far from the oils of old with regards to offering outstanding protection, heat, mechanical shear resistance etc etc.

I also find it odd when people/repairers say things like "oh that oil is too thin for our conditions" and want to put in a 10W40, 15W40, 20W40/50 etc etc. As an example a multi grade semi synthetic oil such as a 5W40 will have the flow characteristics of a SAE 5 oil at that oh so important cold engine start up (where as your base thicker oils wont), but at that hot engine running temp of 100 deg C will have the protection of a SAE 40 oil. Some of the additives (polymers/plastics) they put into engine oil are heat reactive, as in they swell up and make the oil thicker as it heats up. (thats an incredibly basic explanation though).

Regards
Daz

In 2003 I bought (new) a Ford BA GT, this engine came from the factory with Castrol edge(?) 0W-40, I was using almost a litre of oil/5K.
At 15K with no improvement in oil consumption, Ford swapped out my engine for a brand new engine (same engine #, old engine crushed)and used Penrite 20w-40 for 5K and I drove it like I stole it, after 5K and not using oil like before went back to Castrol edge, no more oil problems.
Perkins also states under NO circumstances to use Synthetic engine oil in their 6354T line of engines.
Oil is to lubricate, to keep a film of oil between bearing surface and crank (whatever) and suspend soot particles that bypass piston rings and and deposits on cylinder walls.
Diesels when Idling or at low revs (pressures) do not expand the compression ring effectively, allowing soot to by-pass.
If this soot is not washed off the cylinder walls and suspended in the oil till it reaches the oil filter then the engine will fail early, now oil filters only take out the rocks and boulders, very fine particulate matter stays suspended in the oil making it turn black.
So if a diesel engine oil comes out clean there is a problem.
Modern oils are strong enough to be changed at 10K no worries, back in the 80's I was doing 10K oil changes on my Mack, I changed over to Marina M (Shell) to try to extend oil changes to 15K. As my Mack had a 60L sump, 3 oil Filters, 2 fuel Filters, 1 water filter and I was clocking over 5K/week it got to be an expensive exercise.
This New oil leaked out of every orifice and then some, the engine rattled and I used 20L of oil from syd. to adel. and back, this oil also came out clean.
I complained to Shell and they sent me a 44 of Rimula X to shut me up.
So alarm bells ring if I see clean oil esp. in a diesel engine, IME., Regards Frank.

Originally Posted by 1nando

It depends how you see it....

I have invested a lot of money into my Landy, i want to keep my Landy for a long time and want to enjoy driving it hassle-free for as long as possible.

Im in the transport industry and although we dont change the oil every 5k we do change the smaller trucks around 10k.

Why? Its a cheap insurance policy as i see it.

My egr has been switched off and blanked, i have an intercooler, decat straight through exhaust and remap.....

So YES my oil is still clean!

All I can say is it is still a waste of money and oil, do you have any evidence that using oil for half of it's recommended working life instead of it's full working life has a beneficial effect, other than feeling good about it, because it seems you are saying that if you follow the Land Rover engineers and oil manufacturers advice then you are shortening the working life of your Land Rover.
If your oil comes out clean you have a problem, regards Frank.

Geez I don't even check the oil between services.........than alone look at the colour.

Originally Posted by Tank

In 2003 I bought (new) a Ford BA GT, this engine came from the factory with Castrol edge(?) 0W-40, I was using almost a litre of oil/5K.
At 15K with no improvement in oil consumption, Ford swapped out my engine for a brand new engine (same engine #, old engine crushed)and used Penrite 20w-40 for 5K and I drove it like I stole it, after 5K and not using oil like before went back to Castrol edge, no more oil problems.
Perkins also states under NO circumstances to use Synthetic engine oil in their 6354T line of engines.
Oil is to lubricate, to keep a film of oil between bearing surface and crank (whatever) and suspend soot particles that bypass piston rings and and deposits on cylinder walls.
Diesels when Idling or at low revs (pressures) do not expand the compression ring effectively, allowing soot to by-pass.
If this soot is not washed off the cylinder walls and suspended in the oil till it reaches the oil filter then the engine will fail early, now oil filters only take out the rocks and boulders, very fine particulate matter stays suspended in the oil making it turn black.
So if a diesel engine oil comes out clean there is a problem.
Modern oils are strong enough to be changed at 10K no worries, back in the 80's I was doing 10K oil changes on my Mack, I changed over to Marina M (Shell) to try to extend oil changes to 15K. As my Mack had a 60L sump, 3 oil Filters, 2 fuel Filters, 1 water filter and I was clocking over 5K/week it got to be an expensive exercise.
This New oil leaked out of every orifice and then some, the engine rattled and I used 20L of oil from syd. to adel. and back, this oil also came out clean.
I complained to Shell and they sent me a 44 of Rimula X to shut me up.
So alarm bells ring if I see clean oil esp. in a diesel engine, IME., Regards Frank.

"R" Model Mack?.....Maxidyne/Thermodyne?
Regards, Pickles.

Originally Posted by Babs

Daz,

That's some real good info you posted up there.

This is something I pulled off another post that another member had posted as the recommendation for a Puma 2.2

"OIL. Penrite HPR5 full synthetic. This has the requisite specs (WSS-M2C913-B or C) for the 2.2 non DPF"

Daz what is your recommendation for an oil for the Puma 2.2❓

I wasn't planning on sticking with the manufacturers 20k service intervals and am planning on dropping oil every 10k. I hadn't thought of doing all filters but after reading your comments I will be doing all filters every 10k.

👍👍👍

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

The oil I use in bulk (everything that is NON DPF/DPD) Penrite HPR Diesel 5 5W40 Semi Synthetic, it also meets the Ford 913 spec.

I had thought that maybe the very last of the Defender TDCi in Australia might be DPF/DPD (Diesel particulate filter / defuser), but the last couple I've had in, although the Cat is different, its not a DPF and there is a blank plug at the top where I would expect the flow sensor to be. I also confimed this after the fact on Phil's Heritage "HUGH 166" when I got to see it yesterday and two other new Defenders with build dates of AUG/OCT 2015 and the specs list as "EURO STAGE 4 EMISSIONS".

As I previously mentioned, engines that I've changed over to it run noticeably better in all respects. Cold start running is quieter, I find this most noticeable in the old 200/300tdi engines that have a big noise difference from cold running to operating temperature.

Its also worth noting that engine sludge is caused by the engine oil breaking down (or rather the additives used in that oil) due to such factors as heat, impurity loading (there is a technical word for that somewhere) and mechanical shear. Once an oil has broken down, its ability to resist such factors as mechanical shear is greatly reduced, which then compounds the sludge issue. Heavy sludge is a sign that the oil running in an engine is not the correct specification, as in real world specifications, the oil is breaking down and not doing its intended job.

Obviously while I'm sold on the Penrite brand, its the spec of the oil thats important and not the brand, I'm sure everyone's fav brand will have a similar spec semi synthetic diesel oil.

Regards
Daz