Thread: Hydrogen Fuel

A friend recently put a water to gas convertor in his TD5 D2 and reckons he's using up to 16% less fuel. But still early days and he's waiting to get more milage.

Basically electrodes in water make Browns Gas, which is seperating the oxygen and the hydrogen atoms which bubble up and get sucked into the air intake. I can't remember if he put it pre or post turbo.

I haven't heard of anything that makes enough gas to power the vehicle completely. There's a lot of (often conflicting) opinion on the net. I'd like to get a chance to play around with the unit in the Disco and see how much gas per min it actually produces.

I can understand how a TD5 may lean out the mix, but I don't know how a Tdi will improve economy if it relies on mechanical injection.

err.................................rubbish.

Two things:

First, the energy required to separate hydrogen from water is huge, you're talking power stations, not alternators!

Second, if it was so simple, we'd all be doing it.

A good article can be found here.

http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1769/

Originally Posted by cartm58

... a litre of distilled water makes 18,000 litres of gas

At what pressure?? A fundamental gas law is that a gas will expand to occupy its container. From 1 litre of water, 111g of hydrogen is produced. Put it what ever sized container you like and claim the volume you want!

Originally Posted by WhiteD3

err.................................rubbish.

Two things:

First, the energy required to separate hydrogen from water is huge, you're talking power stations, not alternators!

Well ... not quite. It can be done with low power supplies, but you can not produce hydrogen at a rate that is anywhere near sufficient to power a car or to improve an existing fuel supply. I have separated water many times as a demo for science classes. In 40mins you are lucky to produce 100mL of hydrogen (at atmospheric pressure). Not enough to power a car, but enough to make an impressive pop when ignited.

Simply looking at energy conversions and losses, it is simply not and will never be viable to power an internal combustion engine with hydrogen as it is being produced from electroyzed water.


Paul

A friend of mine has his 130 4BD1 turbo on it, and has claimed a lot better fuel efficiency.
The only thing I'm concerned about, (although apparently there is a VERY low risk of this actually happening,) is that it is drawn in to the intake system and then compressed through the turbo, intercooler and then forced into the inlet manifold therefore creating a compressed mixture of air and Hydrogen gas, which Is highly combustible with even the smallest of ignition sources.(IE the Hindenberg...)

My concern is that at any given time, a highly flammable gas is under pressure in an easily rupturable (in the case of a vehicle accident) vessel, an aluminium intercooler, front mounted....One spark after a collision and

The science of adding hydrogen gas to the intake system is as far as I can tell sound, but I am worried about the safety issues with turboed engines. Naturally aspirated diesels don't have anywhere near the risks..................No compressed extremely flammable gasses.

JC

Originally Posted by awabbit6

Well ... not quite. It can be done with low power supplies, but you can not produce hydrogen at a rate that is anywhere near sufficient to power a car or to improve an existing fuel supply.

Touche'.

What I was trying to say, none too clearly, was that you can't get something for nothing, ie free energy. To create hydrogen from water with current technology, you have to put in more energy (electricity) than the energy (hydrogen) you get out.

Nothing is free, you always lose something.

Now find me a kit that sits in the garage, which is full of algae or bacteria which breaks down the water to give hydrogen, which I can then compress overnight and pump into a tank in my car, which will run it for say 100k (daily commute)................and I'm sold!

The subject has been broached before and from experience you will get a lot of negative feedback and possibly some quite nasty replies from people who do not believe hydrogen is a viable option. If this belief was held by all we would not have electricity, lpg, space travel, aeroplanes etc etc, most of these and many more have broken scientific boundaries. Probablly at this time it is not a cost effective option as a stand alone fuel, but there is some evidence of benefits of it being used as an assist fuel. Set up costs may also still be prohibitive.
There is a lot of work going on in this area and who knows in 10 or 20 years time someone may unravel some widely held scientific beliefs and make it work on large scale. One can only hope someone does crack it. There have been a few shows on foxtel lately relating to this subject and the research is very interesting.

Craig,

Don't get me wrong; I'm a believer in the hydrogen economy (or at least transport), with LPG/LNG being the bridging fuel until we get the technology right.

What I'm against is people using the hype to rip others off!

Lot of misinformation here.

Hi WhiteD3, your half correct. While you actually can use low voltages to produce large quantities of hydrogen, the problem is not low the volt voltage but that a huge amount of current is required to make enough hydrogen to power a vehicle, many time the amount of energy that the hydrogen would be able to supply.

Hi Justic, I think you will find the hydrogen and air mixture is no more dangerous then the existing fuel air mixture found in any petrol powered vehicle and an other point, the Hindenburg was not bought down by it’s hydrogen flotation gas but by the rocket fuel they used to put a reflective coating on the outside surface of the Zeppelin.

In the future, hydrogen may very well be the fuel of fuels but at this present time, both the extraordinary weight of the storage vessel needed to carry the gas and huge amounts of power needed to produce hydrogen in quantities of much less power makes it a fuel of little use, at this time, for day to day transport.

If anyone is interested in finding out the real facts about hydrogen, do a google search for “dr Billings”, he is probably the worlds leading expert on the subject.