·Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

·Disappointed with God? Try worshipping Milk! Exactly the same answered-prayer rate and you know it exists!

·An atheist says to a Christian, "Neither one of us is going to heaven." When the Christian asks why, the atheist says, "I'm not going because I don't believe in heaven, and you're not going because there isn't one."

·In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..……… no seriously! Stop laughing!

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I agree.....but it helps if ya like bacon and eggs...

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RobHay
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Thanks for your comments, believe me I know about those who don't take a literal view of genesis, my grandmother is one of them. As you said repentance is a continuous thing, its not a case of saying "gee, I'm sorry God" as a once off, its a life lived turning away from sin and things of the flesh.

Peter has to be one of my favourite people from the Bible, he stuffed up big time - all the time - but his heart was in the right place and after he had been humbled Christ used him to build the church. If there is hope for Peter, David, Saul/Paul than there is hope for all of us.

Christ did not come to save the righteous, he came to save those who were in sin. One of the most challanging passages of scripture for me is where He says (and I paraphrase loosely) that it will be worse in the day of judgement for those Christians who were lukewarm than it shall be for those of Sodom and Gomorrah.

As I mentioned before, if God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent than He wouldn't have had any trouble at all creating the universe and all that is in it in 6 days. What you believe about creation is not a salvation issue, but as a believer I am prepared to defend the Bible from the very first verse because to often I have seen people that ignore Genisis go on to ignore other parts of the Bible, parts that are essential to the Gospel. Its not the Gospel if we only preach the parts we like. Its not following Christ if we gloss over sin because we don't want to hurt somebodies feelings.

Showing compassion and love to somebody while telling them that what they are doing is a sin and not condemning them at the same time is a difficult thing to do. It is often helpful in this situation to remind us of what Paul said, "This is a faithful saying, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am chief." No matter if we have repented and accepted Christ we are still reprobate sinners in need of grace. Christ showed compassion, He showed love, He demonstrated forgiveness and then he said "Go, and sin no more".

Quote: Now the words that I think you take offence to :- "God said it, the bible shows it, I believe it." in the context that "there is no more enquiry need here" are not actually my words. The words or words to that effect (I think expressed as 'The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it' ) were taken from a creationist web site on how to interpret the fossil record.

Clearly there is no room for questions or enquiry expressed in these words. You seem to support the sentiment echoed in these words by ending some of your own pronouncements with similar certainty - 'That's all', 'There is no other way' etc.

Does this demonstrate open minded tendencies? Quote:

That's one of my favourite statements and it has been around for a very long time, its a way I express my faith. But there is a catch, the Bible calls us to have an answer for the questions that we are asked and to be able to defend the faith. Stating that quote in response to a question is not a defense and it is not an answer, it is simply an expression of personal faith. And a very poor attempt to get around having to answer.

There is a constant wondering and marveling through out the Bible at the works of the Creators hands, we should be exploring and discovering more about creation on a daily basis, inquisitivness is a characteristic of mankind. Taking the view that the universe and the earth are created should in no way be a detriment to good scientific study, I have met and read the articles of a number of "Creation Scientists" and some of them do behave in way that is contrary to scripture and they do sound like that website you quoted above, there are others who are well spoken who present well thought out arguements and a clear case for what they believe in. These are generally the ones that never, ever quote Darwin when trying to refute a point. Anyway that's enough for tonight, I need some sleep.

jplambs wrote:

This is not the place to discuss our differences on this. My comments are for those who are grossly offended by the notion that (in their thinking) they have to put their brains on hold in order to treat Genesis 1-3 literally, thus alienating them from the rest of what the Bible might be on about (ultimately about Jesus and the cross, as you know).

The cross is enough of a stumbling block to get in the way of belief in God, let alone introducing red herrings such as the need to believe in 6 literal days of creation.

By the way, did you watch 'Did Darwin kill God?' on Compass last night. If not you can still catch it on Youtube. Well worth a look imho.

Cheers

My apologies to lutherans and others, my post was poorly written. It should have said that SOME other forms of christianity would condemn the child. I am quite unfamiliar with most christian religions because, as a catholic child, I was brought up to believe the rest were cults.

It seems to me that most Australian's take the more compassionate view. We probably get a disproportionate amount of exposure to Southern American "evangalism", don't judge all christians by their rantings.

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Paul

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Cheers,
Paul

2000 TD5 D2
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Buying a Landrover is like becoming a Buddhist. Surviving the criticism from Nissan owners is part of the path to enlightenment.

Discostew wrote:

Yes the line of thought that has come out of that neck of the woods over the last century or more is pretty poor stuff.... taking the mystery, the grandeur and the depth out of theology, literalism ruling when it shouldn't , and resorting to 'proof-texting' in a way that abuses the original intention of the good book... No wonder many people cast off Christians as a bunch of cranks.

No, I didn't, I don't have a television and I was watching tv on the computer with a little digital dongle thing-oh but I left it in S.A. last time I was visiting by accident.

Another thing that would be worth listening to is the interview John Cleary did last night on the ABC with a British Prof. of evolutionary biology. I only heard half of it as my car radio was really dodgy when I got away from towns. Anyway the chap being interviewed was a Christian and while I didn't agree with him, he made some very interesting points. Well worth listening to; I think that you would probably agree with him. (Not meaning to presume, just going by what you have brought up thus far).

Jonathan

Was in hospital recovering from an operation while the posts on most of this interesting thread was being written so missed most of this interesting discussion at the time this discussion took place.

if you look up the saying "When in Rome do as the Romans do" in dictonaries of quotations you will find it has every thing to do with the Sabbath vs Sunday question.

Sorry but in your quoted post you do say "Jesus was not crucified on a cross, Why? Because that just how it wasn't done at that time…."

Sorry but Crucifixion on a cross was actually practiced in the first Century AD. For example the very famous first century Roman philosopher, writer and Statesman named Seneca, who lived from 4BC to 65 AD, a man living contempory to Jesus & all of the Apostles of Jesus Christ [Jesus Christ was born probably in 5 BC, certainly before March 4 BC, the time it is recorded that King Herod died], clearly desribes three different methods of the first century methods of Romans putting criminals to death. Seneca wrote, "Can anyone be found who would prefer wasting away in pain dying limb by limb, or letting out his life drop by drop, rather than expiring once for all? Can any man by found willing to be fastened to the accursed tree, long sickly, already deformed, swelling with ugly wounds on shoulders and chest, and drawing the breath of life amid long drawn-out agony? He would have many excuses for dying even before mounting the cross" (Dialogue 3:2.2).

The ancients considered death by crucifixion to be not just any execution, but the most obscene, the most disgraceful, the most horrific execution known to man.

Seneca also wrote; "I see crosses there, not just of one kind but made in many different ways: some have their victims with head down to the ground; some impale their private parts; others stretch out their arms on the gibbet."[14]" Some victims were hung up by the neck. That is not how Jesus Christ was crucified. Seneca also says that some criminals were impaled through their private parts, that is through their Genitals. Very clearly that is not how Jesus Christ was crucified. Seneca also says other first century crucifixion victims were hung up on a tree/beam with their arms outstretched. That is very clearly how Jesus was crucified. And this comes from this Roman philosopher/Historian, Seneca, who lived at that very time that Jesus Christ was crucified.

We also know from ancient records that Crucifixion on a Cross was also done during the first century B.C. The Cross is found on many many coins dating from the first century BC, to the first century AD.

The Historian Josephus records that after he was captured by the Romans around 70AD, at the time destruction of Jerusalem by General Titus [70 AD], [Titus later becoming Caesar], the Roman army had trouble finding enough trees to make crosses to Crucify all the Jews that they captured while sneaking out of that starving city of Jerusalem. In fact, so many Jews were crucified outside of the walls that "there was not enough room for the crosses and not enough crosses for the bodies" (Josephus, Wars of the Jews 5:11.1).

Dionysius of Halicarnassus (first century B.C.) described this ancient practice:
"A Roman citizen of no obscure station, having ordered one of his slaves to be put to death, delivered him to his fellow-slaves to be led away, and in order that his punishment might be witnessed by all, directed them to drag him through the Forum and every other conspicuous part of the city as they whipped him, and that he should go ahead of the procession which the Romans were at the time conducting in honour of the god. The men ordered to lead the slave to his punishment, having stretched out both hands and fastened them to a piece of wood (tas kheiras apoteinantes amphoteras kai xul' prosdasantes) which extended across his chest and shoulders as far as his wrists, followed him, tearing his naked body with whips" (Roman Antiquities, 7.69.1-2).

I could have given several other first century BC to first Century AD quotes, but you get the picture.

Also many Old Testament Symbolisms show the Messiah had to be crucified on a Cross, no other way.

For example, in the Bible, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, the royal steed of all the kings of Israel. Why do you think that a donkey was the royal steed of the Kings of Israel, instead of a handsome Arabian stallion? Look at the fur on a donkey’s back and you will see the cross there in its fur. See God knew that Jesus, “the king of the Jews” was to be crucified on a cross, hence that Bible symbolism of the Cross was given for all “Kings of the Jews,” and so when the people wanted to make Jesus their King he rode the donkey to show the people that he was to be put on the Cross portrayed in fur on the donkey’s back [all Middle Eastern/North African donkeys have this cross in their fur. Some Donkeys from parts of Asia do not].

Jewish writings tell us that when the sacrificial lamb was burnt on the altar of sacrifice, sacrifices that represented the Coming Death of Jesus Christ as the "Lamb of God," the Jewish priest threw in two sticks of hyssop tied together in a cross shape with a scarlet cord.

The Jewish tabernacle/temple also had its furniture laid out in a cross shape, representing what would happen to the Coming Messiah—Jesus Christ.

In the Bible, the Ezekiel chapter 9 prophecy of a day soon to come, the people who are accepted by God are Marked in their foreheads. Those who do not have this Mark from God, are ordered slaughtered by God’s Angel. The Ezekiel 9 Hebrew word translated as “Mark” is the Hebrew word “HaTau.” In Hebrew the prefix “Ha” means “the,” so “HaTau” is simply “the Tau,” Tau being just one letter, the very last letter of the Hebrew alphabet.

In English we could say from A to Z. In Greek we could say “the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.” In Hebrew to say the same thing we would say from “Aleph to Tau,” the letter Aleph being the first Hebrew Letter and Tau being the last letter of that Hebrew alphabet.

Today Tau in Hebrew is now written like the surrounds of a door frame. But anciently this Hebrew letter named Tau was written like we would write a X or a t , in other words, the Hebrew letter Tau was anciently written in the shape of a Cross.

These people in Ezekiel’s prophecy have the cross marked in their foreheads showing us that they are Christian.

The frontal lobe of the brain, the area just inside our foreheads is where our conscience and judgement reside. Years ago in order to try to cure some psychiatric patients surgeons surgically removed people's frontal lobe. They discovered they had surgically removed these people’s conscience and judgement.

I do suggest the Ezekiel 9 passage talking of this Mark given to those who obey God is talking of a Mark put in their Conscience, not a Mark visible to people, except visible to others only by observing people’s actions.