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Series II and IIA Chat specifically relating to Series II and IIA leaf sprung series Land Rovers and variations.

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Old 13th December 2011, 08:15 PM
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ser 2a brake upgrade

I currently have a ser2a 88in that has a 173 holden engine standard brakes all round, standard brake master cylinder and a VH40 booster.

I have been told by a friend who has a 2a 109 that the brakes should be upgraded to a ser 3. Being a 12" drum with ser 3 brakes and twin wheel cylinders, as well as a ser 3 booster and master cylinder. However he didnt explain which ser 3 model to use, i want to assume a 6cyl 109" but im not sure.

The shoes and cylinders need to be replaced as its been sitting for the last 6 years so i thought if i was going to replace them i might as well start the upgrade.

I dont have a large amount of money but have good prices on most things and right now i just want to get it through to rego and after that gradually get it to what i want it to be (super charger and muddies

I also have to decide whether to put stainless steel or just gal steel brake pipes through the car as the ones it had where all seized and rusted.

Any help in this area would be greatly appreciated as this is my first landy and my biggest project.

Thanks
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Old 13th December 2011, 08:19 PM
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Some information is wrong.

88" had 10: drum brakes all round.

109" had 11" x 2 1/2" drums all round.

Six cylinder SIIa and SIII six cylinder had 11" drum brakes 2 1/2" wide on the rear 3" wide on the front.

These brakes were also fitted to the SIII Stage 1 V8 and Isuzu.

Series LR never had 12" brakes.

The six cylinder from about 1970 also had a mastervac (master cylinder with booster on the pedal), this is the preferred upgrade but you will need to modify the hole in the footwell for the pedal box.

From about 1978 SIII also had dual circuit brakes, which allow you to have one circuit fail and still have some braking.

you can upgrade to the 11" brakes with ease, but if you use SIII the holes for the studs are 16mm where you have smaller 9/16" so you should order new drums for a SIIa which will have the correct stud holes.
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Old 13th December 2011, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies View Post
Some information is wrong.

Six cylinder SIIa from about 1970 and SIII six cylinder had 11" drum brakes 2 1/2" wide on the rear 3" wide on the front.

These brakes were also fitted to the SIII Stage 1 V8 and Isuzu.

Never had 12"

Thanks for the quick response

Its possible i heard wrong. Am going to find out tomorrow what he meant.

So any ser 6cyl 11" brake shoes etc would work?
What about the master cylinder and booster?
twin or single wheel cylinders?
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Old 13th December 2011, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Landygirl View Post
Thanks for the quick response

Its possible i heard wrong. Am going to find out tomorrow what he meant.

So any ser 6cyl 11" brake shoes etc would work?
What about the master cylinder and booster?
twin or single wheel cylinders?
I had posted a partial post.

For an 88" 11" brakes are very adequate but the 3" fronts allow you that little extra.

All 11" brakes have double leading shoes on the front and leading trailing on the back.

You need to acquire the entire brake backing plates, and springs etc. correct for your desired conversion. I would advise getting new shoes and cylinders all round when you do the conversion.

The best option would be the dual circuit but you will need a brake place to make up the extra pipes. You should also fit a brake balance switch which will do the circuit splitting and also allow you to have a brake fail warning lamp on the dash.
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Old 13th December 2011, 08:58 PM
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Couple of additions to the above.

The 11" two leading shoe front brakes are a worthwhile improvement to the 88, and braking balance is probably best with the 11" rear brakes as well, although this is probably not strictly necessary since the weight on the back axle is less on the 88.

The wider brakes are an improvement again, but probably not necessary on the 88, and parts are possibly harder to find. In any case, you should use the 109 master cylinder. If you retain the VH44, the boosted master cylinder will offer no advantages except easier bleeding.

While fitting the dual braking system out of a late Series 3 is an advantage in that it retains braking in the event of a single failure, you need to be aware that it entails not only a new pedal box, master cylinder, booster, equaliser, pipes, but also on the 2a will require body modifications to the inner mudguard and probably the mudguard itself. Strictly speaking, dual braking systems should have a circuit failure warning light fitted, as otherwise you could drive for ages under the false impression that all is good. This is an additional complication. Single circuit brakes rarely fail suddenly unless badly neglected.

John
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Old 13th December 2011, 09:08 PM
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Thanks guys. Its all so confusing so many different opinions with the people i have around me its gets a little over whelming.

Didnt know you would have to do so much to switch it to dual cylinders!

What about the clutch slave and master is there anything i need to change there?
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Old 14th December 2011, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Landygirl View Post
right now i just want to get it through to rego and after that gradually get it to what i want it to be (super charger and muddies

I also have to decide whether to put stainless steel or just gal steel brake pipes through the car as the ones it had where all seized and rusted.
I agree with John - stick with the single circuit brakes in good order.

For brake pipe use bundy-tube available from any motor spares store. I have never heard of stainless brake tube but bundy-tube has a zinc-looking finish and is very easy to bend by hand.

I have made a complete set of pipes for my single-circuit S3 - it is very easy to do but you need to borrow or buy a double flaring tool and a small tube bender (search the net) for tight bends, such as on the front backing-plates. Doing this would be significantly cheaper than buying ready-made pipes,

Cheers Charlie
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Old 14th December 2011, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chazza View Post
For brake pipe use bundy-tube available from any motor spares store. I have never heard of stainless brake tube but bundy-tube has a zinc-looking finish and is very easy to bend by hand.
It is also possible to buy copper plated brake pipe, which I think looks very neat with brass fittings. But I might be biased because they're what I'm used to - in the UK we always used to use solid copper brake pipes, though these are apparently illegal in Australia, which is something to be aware of if you import a set from a UK supplier!


Quote:
Originally Posted by JDNSW View Post
The 11" two leading shoe front brakes are a worthwhile improvement to the 88, and braking balance is probably best with the 11" rear brakes as well, although this is probably not strictly necessary since the weight on the back axle is less on the 88.

While fitting the dual braking system out of a late Series 3 is an advantage in that it retains braking in the event of a single failure, you need to be aware that it entails not only a new pedal box, master cylinder, booster, equaliser, pipes, but also on the 2a will require body modifications to the inner mudguard and probably the mudguard itself.
Is the booster type pedal box on the 6 cylinder 109" 2A the same as the Series 3 dual circuit version?

I have also read about a further upgrade to improve braking when travelling backwards (after a failed hill ascent or launching a boat, for example). The theory is that with the twin leading shoe brakes up front there is reduced braking in reverse (effectively twin trailing shoe), so in reverse only the "trailing" shoe on the rear is acting as a leading shoe. To counter this it was suggested to fit TLS (109" front) brakes to the rear, but swapped so as to normally act as twin trailing shoes, but become twin leading shoes when going backwards. The suggestion was that this does not massively reduce the braking when travelling forwards (11" twin trailing vs. 10" single leading) but gives a big improvement in reverse. Does anyone have any thoughts or experience of this modification?

Finally, if the decision is to leave 10" drums on the back, is there any significant advantage to using the Series 2 adjustable backplate as opposed to the 2A fixed one?
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Old 14th December 2011, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warb View Post
It is also possible to buy copper plated brake pipe, which I think looks very neat with brass fittings. But I might be biased because they're what I'm used to - in the UK we always used to use solid copper brake pipes, though these are apparently illegal in Australia, which is something to be aware of if you import a set from a UK supplier!...
There is actually thick walled copper brake pipe available in Australia. This is branded as brake pipe and perfectly legal. What isn't legal is thin walled copper tubing used as brake pipe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warb View Post
...Finally, if the decision is to leave 10" drums on the back, is there any significant advantage to using the Series 2 adjustable backplate as opposed to the 2A fixed one?
I think you are getting confused about the difference between S1/SII 11" rear brakes with the bottom adjuster. The 10" backing plates are the same in the SII/SIIa/SIII
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Old 14th December 2011, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies View Post
I think you are getting confused about the difference between S1/SII 11" rear brakes with the bottom adjuster. The 10" backing plates are the same in the SII/SIIa/SIII
Indeed, not only a typo but also badly phrased... Insufficient caffeine in the blood!

I meant to ask:

If the decision is to leave the 11" single leading shoe drums on the back (as opposed to reversed TLS as mentioned), is there any advantage/disadvantage to using the Series 2 plate with the adjustable bottom mount as opposed to the Series 2A with the fixed mount (and snail cams)?

It's good to know that copper brake pipe is legal. I never understood why it shouldn't be, I found it far easier to work with (and to me it looks nicer) than steel, and doesn't rust even on the salted UK roads. But everyone I've talked to over here has been convinced it's illegal.
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