Thread: The Ultimate FC

Found this video, which will help people understand the role of the Stalwart in Germany. The vehicle was specifically speced to work in BAOR supporting the front line in woods and on heathland, and very few were used in the UK, solely for training. Mk 1's served in Aden, but never got to the Gulf war

Originally Posted by 101 Ron

The threate draw down unit veh coy didn't exist until about 1991 as that unit was formed to redirect vehicles back to UK or for sale because the cold war was ending .

I understand the on line vehicle movement records were hand written to a online service and therefore errors may exist.
Thanks
Ron
Humble stalwart owner.

RAOC had a number of large warehouses in Belgium for the entire time of BAOR, stuffed full of vehicles. It's from there that new vehicles were sent to units in Germany, and where old vehicles were (Drawn down) sent back to or when a unit was disbanded and the vehicles sent back. Many of the vehicles there were War reserve, waiting for trainloads of TA to arrive from the UK.

This is Olen and Emblem in Holland.

1a2.jpg 1a2a.jpg

Some vehicles at release were sent to Monchengladbach in Germany for sale.


Vehicle records were recorded on B cards.

B-Card-01BT09.jpg

Remember how old the British army is, computerising the vehicle records started in 1984 under the new program Merlin.
There are a number of errors and omissions on Merlin, partially because they had thousands of cards to enter.
Aus-Ron-B-Card.JPG

Many of the B cards were entered onto Merlin by and at the expense of the RCT Association rather then MOD. This might explain some of the errors compared to just using volunteers to enter the data.

There was at least 140 Mk 1 Stalwart chassis made, which includes somewhere between 11 and 14 prototypes and those few sold to Sweden.
There was at least 956 Mk 2 Stalwart Chassis made, which includes some sold to Sweden.

Of the 1095 chassis, there is some 170 chassis with no registration or vehicle type associated with the chassis no on Merlin.

Purchase-numbers-stalwat-2.JPG

Most were withdrawn in 1989, and replaced with Bedford TM 6x6 - cheaper to run and maintain.
In the winter of 82, we were banned from using petrol vehicles and all unnecessary transport was stopped. This included putting tracked vehicles on blocks of wood to stop troops from moving them, and any transport was done in Bedfords instead of Land Rovers.

BAOR coast the British tax payer a fortune. Our Government refused to ask Germany for money for WW2, and we didn't finish paying the war loan back to the Americans until 2006. Mean whilst, Millions of troops from America, Britain, Holland and Canada who were being paid by their own country's taxes but spending their wages in German bars, shops, clubs, garages. Germany laughed all the way to the bank after WW2.

What you can possibly be sure of is that your stolly served with a Royal Artillery unit, or Armoured corps in Germany. Royal Engineer units and REME had the 624 version.

Originally Posted by Mark_E

I agree about Facebook security, and I'm glad that you've found and enjoyed the group. Most members forget to browse the photo albums of the group, and also don't look in the Files section. You know I'm going to use your photos for the group, right
I'm currently looking for a PDF of the Operators handbook, to share on the group.

By the way, this is the stowage case for the Operator handbook rather than a map case.
Attachment 160213


I'm sure you've seen this. People put the wrong substance in certain things. On my course at Leconfield, we were wrongly told by the Royal Artillery instructors to put grease in the torsion bars, but it's gearbox oil.

Attachment 160205


Your's has clearly been modified by a civilian owner. The rust is because it was probably swam in the sea too much without being cleaned. Whilst they are sea worthy (and one soldier did come half way across the channel in one) they were designed for crossing German canals

At the back of the cab above the fuel filer pipe should be a Vehicle identification plate, which I'm guessing he removed
Attachment 160206 Attachment 160207

Whilst Germany trialed a protoype, and France trialed a couple of Mk 1s, Sweden was the only other country to buy the Stalwart

Attachment 160208
Swedish Mk 1's have the hydraulic winch fitted externally on the front of the cab, which guess inspired Alvis to fit the winch as standard on the Mk 2. all Mk 2 were made with winches.

Britain trialed various vehicles in Thailand at the same time as the Americans.We were building roads and airports for Thailand.
No sales came from the trials. The other vehicle is the FV437 Pathfinder. The idea being for it to swim across a canal and then winch any other vehicles up any step banks.

Attachment 160209 Attachment 160214

But the Combat Engineer Tractor (CET) made that surplus to requirement, and FV437 never went in to production.
The CET sits very low in the water , even with it's additional buoyancy tanks
Attachment 160210

The two German Mk 2 on the internet are actually ex British army that someone bought and painted up as German.

Someone mentioned about the Stalwart ousting a tracked 430 series load carrier. This is the FV431
Attachment 160211 Attachment 160212

Radios were rarely fitted - and never fitted in fuel carrying vehicles. Most Stalwarts carried fuel or ammo. Some carried mines, some carried the Troops G1098 equipment.
Vehicles only carried radios and CS kit when going out on exercise, so radios in the sigs wing and CS in the MT store when not going out. Included in the Stalwart CS is two 25 litre water jerry cans, which sit on that plate in the corner of the louvres - that area at the back where the heat expels from the radiator. It gave lovely warm water to wash in on arrival at harbour area.
In the two years that I was on Stollys, we only fitted radios on one exercise - which was a one week squadron exercise. Stolly were used for carrying pallets of concrete Mk 7 AT mines, which guys passed over the side and others laid on the floor.
They used FV 432 for laying Barmines as they're sat protected in an armoured metal box in case of any enemy fire. Normally, Bedfords would be parked at the edge with the 432 going back for more

Attachment 160215

Your Stolly has clearly been played with by the previous owner. The clansman speakers you show were fitted in APCs so the troops could hear any broadcast. Never fitted in any Stolly. Whatever was fitted in that rear corner also wasn't original, and looks from the holes like they had a few different things fitted over time.
Army heavy duty vehicle batteries are square things that fit anything from the back of FFR Land Rovers to tanks. Could you share some pictures of your batteries and tray, because that's not original?

Someone mentioned diesel engines. Some have fitted the Bedford 500 engine with good result, and some the Rolls Royce K60 which is a multi fuel engine. The MOD liked multi fuel engines in the 60s. The Bedford MK was a multi fuel engine, where as the MJ was pure diesel only. Whilst Alvis looked in to converting them to diesels, the need for amphibious vehicles had dropped and the Stalwart is costly to maintain. So the army ended up with Bedford TMs and the Foden/Scammell DROPS vehicles.

Someone also disputed the grunt of the Stalwart, but fails to acknowledge the hub reduction on these things. I slipped the off side wheels off the side of a road once as we stopped to let another convoy past. I had to turn round and join the other convoy, and she merrily grunted up the step bank with it's nose in the air to get it back on the road.
This is Arthur Dent, who fitted a Rolls Royce K60 engine - dragging a Chieftain. It's not struggling because of the weight, but because of the tracks being rusted.
YouTube

There is an Army recruitment film that I saw in the 70s (not yet found it anywhere) of supporting the front line. It's about cooks, and bringing supplies up to the front line. In the film, a Stolly drags a dead centurion tank along a gravel road.

I only ever got stuck once. Coming in to a harbour area in the woods one night I suddenly lost forward movement. I'd driven over a tree stump that was just the right height to stop it going forward or backwards. My main Stolly carried pack fuel. A max of 344 25 ltr jerry cans, which is around 7.5 tons. It should be remembered to keep the two hull drain plugs left out unless you are about to swim. Jerry cans are quite secure when closed properly, and I never saw any fire. There was one recorded fire in BAOR, which was a disgruntled soldier.
Attachment 160217

But drain plugs should be left out to stop the hull filling with rain water. I know it's a tadge warmer on Australia, but I've seen a Stolly with frozen ice surrounding the engine.

You mentions about air lockers for the drive shafts. Remembering that it's a limited slip differential, you might find that you have as much trouble/damage just because there is no diff side to side.
PeeWee mentions that they don't like changing gear when going round the corner, but it's dipping the clutch that they don't like. I still clearly remember following a CVRT Spartan round a bend, but the driver had got his speed wrong and had to slow down halfway round the bend. The sight of the Staff Sargent leaning forward and beating the driver over the head with the microphone as I was forced to dip my clutch and kangaroo round was a happy sight

The Saracen has a higher ratio transfer box, which would give a higher road speed. I've driven from Osnabruck to Munster and back without problem, but had the knowledge of REME support if I needed it at the tax payers expense.

This is the limited B card for 90ET44 from RLC's website
Attachment 160216

Which is got from Vehicle search - RLC Digital Archive
Also 90ET44 Vehicle History
- Merlin Archive

Some history was lost when the RCT museum at Leconfield closed and everything passed to RLC Deepcut.


Something else you need to do it the Bridge weight on the front.
The 622 GS version weighs 8.5, carries 5 tonnes and is a max of 14 tonne bridge classification.
The 623/624 Limber version weighs 10 tones and can only carry 4 tones to take it up to the 14 tonne max.
We had a guy go on an Instructors course at Leconfield before he'd done even a unit Operators course. When he returned they made him IC HMLCs and his first mistake was to paint all the Stolly at 15 instead of 14 Bridge classification. He'd somehow added the 10 t of limber to 5 of GS and made it 15. Embarrassed himself in front of the whole regiment.

Some civilian then decided that because the crane can lift 3 tons, that should be added to the 10 and 5 and came up with a Bridge classification of 18 - and that's why your's has 18 painted on the front instead of 14.

Attached is some pictures of the battery tray.
It all appears to be original.
The heavy duty original cable and the original battery terminal clamps appear to be still present.
The batteries currently fitted are smaller than the English ones than it was shipped to Australia with.
the nuts on the battery hold down bar appear to be original cast items, but the hold down bar/frame is mostly likely not original.
There is no signs of cables or brackets ever been fitted to the RHS rear of the cabin....ie below the boiling vessel.
I have seen inside the cabin of the other FV623 stalwart here in Australia and it has a battery either side of the cabin and it is a slightly earlier build than mine.
Comparing the two different set ups for the batteries I like mine with the two batteries on the LHS under the generator control box and battery isolation switch.
It is a more simple battery cable layout and gives much more room in the cabin.
The area under the boiling vessel on the RHS rear of the cabin is free and I fitted a 12 volt outlet via a non standard invertor as I have a small fridge to keep beverages cool which fits in nicely .
One thing I have done which frees up more room in the cabin is removing the hand bilge pump from behind the drivers seat..( my Stalwart was missing this pump anyhow) and the hosing.
To replace it I have another electric bilge pump the same as the standard one on a MK11 stalwart mounted on the hull between the parking brake drums. working though the hand bilge pump outlet on the LHS of the cabin...…...I also fitted a stainless steel auto float switch to it with a manual over ride.
I feel this is a much better arrangement especially when a Limber version of the stalwart floats nose down in the water.
I have enough room behind the driver seat to store a duffel bag.
Another thing I have never worked out is what the soft flap is for clamped to the cabin vent intake pipe.
I think it will be shown in the last photo I post.
I am not certain which way around it goes...……..my only thoughts is it may stop sun glare for some reason ?
Ron

Originally Posted by 101 Ron

...

On the rear of it you should be able to see a clansman speaker mounted on the rear of the tool box and a light with a diecast alloy guard.
I have never seen a photo of a stalwart with this set up any where and have been wondering the purpose of the extra speakers and light.
The guard for the light is the same guard used for the fire warning light inside the cabin which leads me to think it must have been a in service fitment.
There is a professionally wired in extra clansman speaker on the RHS out side of the cabin too.
The extra cabin outside speaker I have found in some old service photos on other Stalwarts.

The Clansman speak is normally used in FV432s and Spartans and the like for people to hear a broadcast. I've never seen a picture of speakers on the back and never seen one on the back, but will ask the UK lot. Never say never, but um ...

The diecast guard is not standard.

Please point me to the other photos of external speakers so I can delve deeper

The diecast guard on yours is not standard Fire system. They bolt to the sides of the unit, rather than on to the face like on the back of yours

DSCF6951-David-tite-Stalwart-cab-Yeminster-August-9-2015.jpg

Originally Posted by Mark_E

RAOC had a number of large warehouses in Belgium for the entire time of BAOR, stuffed full of vehicles. It's from there that new vehicles were sent to units in Germany, and where old vehicles were (Drawn down) sent back to or when a unit was disbanded and the vehicles sent back. Many of the vehicles there were War reserve, waiting for trainloads of TA to arrive from the UK.

This is Olen and Emblem in Holland.

1a2.jpg 1a2a.jpg

Some vehicles at release were sent to Monchengladbach in Germany for sale.


Vehicle records were recorded on B cards.

B-Card-01BT09.jpg

Remember how old the British army is, computerising the vehicle records started in 1984 under the new program Merlin.
There are a number of errors and omissions on Merlin, partially because they had thousands of cards to enter.
Aus-Ron-B-Card.JPG

Many of the B cards were entered onto Merlin by and at the expense of the RCT Association rather then MOD. This might explain some of the errors compared to just using volunteers to enter the data.

There was at least 140 Mk 1 Stalwart chassis made, which includes somewhere between 11 and 14 prototypes and those few sold to Sweden.
There was at least 956 Mk 2 Stalwart Chassis made, which includes some sold to Sweden.

Of the 1095 chassis, there is some 170 chassis with no registration or vehicle type associated with the chassis no on Merlin.

Purchase-numbers-stalwat-2.JPG

Most were withdrawn in 1989, and replaced with Bedford TM 6x6 - cheaper to run and maintain.
In the winter of 82, we were banned from using petrol vehicles and all unnecessary transport was stopped. This included putting tracked vehicles on blocks of wood to stop troops from moving them, and any transport was done in Bedfords instead of Land Rovers.

BAOR coast the British tax payer a fortune. Our Government refused to ask Germany for money for WW2, and we didn't finish paying the war loan back to the Americans until 2006. Mean whilst, Millions of troops from America, Britain, Holland and Canada who were being paid by their own country's taxes but spending their wages in German bars, shops, clubs, garages. Germany laughed all the way to the bank after WW2.

What you can possibly be sure of is that your stolly served with a Royal Artillery unit, or Armoured corps in Germany. Royal Engineer units and REME had the 624 version.

My Stalwart has every sign of not being used and just stored, and mostly likely why I cannot find a picture of it in service.
It had just over 200 miles on the odometer when I got it.
I didn't believe the miles were original.
Every thing I pull apart from a wear point of view is like new and I am starting to believe those miles may have been original.
The corrosion in the vehicle appears to be from outside uncovered storage and from snow.
My biggest problem has been that corrosion and the lack of use causing various oil seals to leak.

The die cast guard on the rear and light was smashed during transport to Australia and some one had thrown the remains of it in to the cabin so I don't have much to go on other than the UK photo.
The metal plate to the rear clansman was professionally welded on the tool box......I have removed it now.
Wiring running back to the light and wiring to rear clansman speaker was poorly done in a hurry.

This picture was taken today in the rain
It is the Cabin RHS out side clansman speaker.
The extinguisher is non original one I fitted as the standard ones are illegal here.
the wiring to this speaker is though a water proof bulk head fitting though the hull and the lead is long enough to run to the radio stand area in side the cabin.

Originally Posted by 101 Ron

...
My stalwart also had brackets on the inside of the rear tailgate which I have been I am told , may have been for a ladder.
Any ideas what this stalwart may have been used for.
...

Whilst you might think that these items are original, it is possible that after service life someone has installed them to a higher then usual standard. Remember that these were being sold off from 1990's, 30 years ago.

The only thing on the inside of the tailgate should be the mounting and storage grooves for the louvre boards - but I've never seen louvre boards.

RCT-louver-2.JPG RCT-louver.JPG

They have landed all over the world in private hands, and doing film work. And some of them have been totally abused.

It's possible that yours was used for beach tours or water tours after it left the army, with people getting in through the tailgate

Crane vehicles never had canopy poles fitted. This is in America

623-pole-2.jpg 623-pole-6.JPG

Some animal did this

play-2.jpg play-1.jpg play-4.jpg

Back plate removed and welded up.

play-3.jpg play-5.jpg

Used for diamond mining in some film

Stalwart-diamond.jpeg Stalwart-Film-Prop-Dimond-1.jpg

and WTH

wtf-1.jpg

In Canada

stalwart-canada-1.jpg

And in South America

stalwart-stretch.jpg

A German bought these and bodged a splash board

stalwart-german-1.jpg

A front tow bar welded on, which blocks the winch

front-tow-bar.JPG

And this just offensive