Which Defender to choose?

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Originally Posted by isuzurover

Specialist tools aren't necessary IME.

I recently replaced a belt on my 300Tdi, the only "specialist" tools needed were a spanner I had to grind thinner to remove the fan, drill bits to hold the pump and flywheel (flywheel - drill bit inside steel tube, held in place using a block of wood and a jack) in place and a torque wrench than can read low enough for the belt.

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:D Yeah - I recently did about the same, but vowed that next time I would at least make a puller for the crank pulley. I'm not telling how I got it off :cool:....

You didn't need two torque wrenches to tension the belt - deflecting beam to apply the tension and another to tighten the bolt?

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Originally Posted by rainman

:D Yeah - I recently did about the same, but vowed that next time I would at least make a puller for the crank pulley. I'm not telling how I got it off :cool:....

You didn't need two torque wrenches to tension the belt - deflecting beam to apply the tension and another to tighten the bolt?

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I used the starter method to undo the crank bolt, and the pulley slid off fairly easily... (maybe I was lucky?).

As for the 2nd - no, but then after reading a recent thread I may have tensioned it too much...

You were lucky! I didn't have too much drama undoing the bolt (apart from slightly pulling the tendons in my elbow), but the pulley certainly didn't "slide off".

Sorry for thread hijack jimb. In answer to your TD5 timing chain replacement question, chains last a lot longer than belts so they are normally changed during other major work like head gasket replacement or head overhaul.


James.

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Originally Posted by MLD

Hi Jimb,

In July this year I was posed with the same Q and did a lot of test driving and research on this forum. I bought a '99 TD5 for the simple reasons that i picked it up for the same asking price as a 300 Tdi, it was more refined that the 300 and tunable. What I learned. The 200Tdi is a rough old girl, torquey off road but not refined on the bitumen. Sound deadening will be your first upgrade. The 300 Tdi is a different engine to the 200Tdi. LR refined the engine thus more pleasant to drive on the bitumen and about the same off road. Some LR mechanics I spoke to held the view that the 200 was more reliable and less prone to mechanical fault. If you are buying a 300 with kms most of the shortcomings of the 300 have been resolved with little upgrades ie the timing belt pulley mentioned earlier.

Can't speak for the TC and gearbox in the 200 or 300. My TD5 has 340k on the clock. The engine is strong as is the gearbox and TC. No metal filings at the recent major service. I expect 500k from the drive train before having to put my hand in my pocket. That said, the service history is the largest contributor to engine, GB and TC longevity. Keep clean oil up to it and it should repay you with a long life.

I've been told that an engine rebuild will set you back about $10,000. Might be overpriced by a few grand but expect to budget $8k for an engine. A gearbox is about $2k. A TC is about $1,500 (the gears are about $300 + labour).

The TD5 has a timing chain and does not require a scheduled replacement. My mechanic (a defender nut) said he has replaced 3 chains in his life and each was part of an engine rebuild.

With standard rubber the TD5 is torquey off road but has a different feel to the 300 which feels like it has more torque at crawl. I upgraded to 33" rubber which affects the crawl torque. A little right foot is needed. On road she pulls with plenty of torque and is somewhat refined. It's a defender. At 60kph the stereo volume is at 14 on the dial. At 80 kph it's at 20/22. At 100 kph it's at 27 to listen to it at the same audible volume.

For $15k you will be looking at a '99 to '01 without the extreme pack (traction control and ABS). Those features became standard from '04 (I think). I was at Mt Airlie on the weekend. There were several stock defenders with ABS and TC doing the track with the same ease as my locked TD5. Considering you can drive out of the showroom onto a track like Mt Airlie and do it with ease, the TC and ABS features a marvellous tool. Early 2000 extremes are going for +- $20k.

I am mechanically inept and fear a track side problem. If you are the same the TD5 is a greater risk than the 200 or 300. Being mechanical they are easy to repair roadside and any mechanic with a ticket will be able to get you on the road again. That said, the defender is a simple car by design and the things that go wrong are well canvassed on this forum. Read the forums and over time you will recognise the possible fault even if the skills of repair are lacking.

If you fear mechanical fault in the bush, buy a toyota. Sad but a reality for LR owners (availability of parts mostly). Of the 300 and TD5, the 300 is the most reliable because such few things can go wrong, the TD5 is a much better car to drive around town and if prepared meticulously it should get you to your destination and back. Don't buy a 200 because you will tire of the crudeness of it for bitumen duties. On a budget of $15,000 my money would be to invest $10,000 into the purchase price, fit a truetrac in the front diff and a truetrac or detroit locker in the rear ($3,500 for both), 1 inch lift and all terrain tyres. The basics for an unstoppable off road truck that will take you over 90% of the tracks with ease.

It's fun toying with all the options out there. Enjoy the experience. I love my TD5 and it's money well spent.

cheer MLD

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Fella's,
Thanks for all the advice. Really appreciating it and helps at least feel like I know why I will buy one over another even it doesn't turn out to be the case.


MLD: Thanks for the great reply! (What is a truetrac? is it traction control?)

Rainman: thanks for all that TB info.

We have been servicing TD5s since they first came out, and we have never had to replace a timing chain. We have only seen two engine failures, both caused by one problem...the driver! One tried to sqeeze too much power out of it and melted a piston, the other decided to keep going when the temperature gauge went into the red. After all, he was only 100 miles from home... :confused:

A handfull of head gaskets, and a fair share of wiring looms, but other than that the TD5 is a great engine.

Hi Jimb,

There is the auto locker made by detroit that everyone knows of. Detroit also make a automatic torque biased locker called a truetrac. While it operates by different mechanical means to an LSD, it's effect is similar. It's objective is to transfer torque, by biasing the differential, from the wheel with less traction to the wheel with traction. Depending on the manufacturer (Ashcroft, Truetrac, Gold trac, Quaiffe, and others) the torque bias preload is different (when the mechanism kicks in) and the bias (how much torque is transferred from one axle to the other) is different. Unlike a full locker the automatic torque bias will always permit the wheel with less traction to spin. The bias is generally about 60/40. 40% to the wheel with more traction.

They are more forgiving on the axle components because of the limited slip that it permits. In a full locker if one wheel on an axle is in the air the other wheel will get 100% of the torque from the engine (allocated to that end of the car) and the stress that it imposes on the drive components, thus the need to fit heavy duty axles etc. If combined with traction control the automatic torque biased locker are a great traction aid. One of the shortcomings of an automatic torque biased locker is that when one wheel is completely in the air there is no resistance to transfer torque to the wheel with traction. It can be overcome with a little left foot braking, which is what the traction control does for you without your involvement.

A ATB locker does not affect your steering like a full locker on the front. It's heavier than normal but you have steering. With a full locker in the front the driver is bit of a passenger as the wheels fight for traction and pull one way or the other. Lots of good things to be said about full lockers and I've fitted one the rear and love it. The front axle is more subjective. The question is whether you want selectable full traction with compromised steering to get you out of trouble or subtle contribution to traction with full steering all of the time.

Have a read on the Ashcroft site to get an idea. My understanding is that the ashcroft ATB locker mechanically operates the same as the Truetrac.
Ashcroft Transmissions

Enjoy the journey. I found that with plenty of research the right car for my needs came to me in my sleep. I did previously suggest the 300 Tdi as a car of minimal risk, but I've had no mechanical trouble with the TD5 bar a fuse. As mentioned by someone else, BMW owned LR when they were developed and they benefit from the lessons learned on the 300 Tdi and the Discovery.

cheers MLD

Guys,
Maybe I am emotional right now as I am about to emigrate back to AUS after 10 years in Amsterdam, but jesus these replies make me feel like Aussie's are some of the best people in the world. Heaps of advice... can almost see the smile.

The more I am learning the more I am realising how bloody ignorant I am... like you say MLD.. its a journey.. Enjoy it!

Anyway, hope one day I can buy you blokes a beer!

Will check out that site you mentioned and do some googling to understand all the stuff you mentioned.

TERRAIN VEHICLES
What sort of problems do you usual have with Td5's? Just want to make sure when stuff comes up I can afford it and I don't have my dream car sitting on the street undriveable like a broke uni student.. Great to know about those timing chains. Had a mercedes station wagen (not what you think) bought it for 200 euro, 1997, beats on the autobaan, 3.2 litre motor and the family were safe as hell driving on summer holidays.. but it also had a chain... and I only found that out when a guy was buying it last weekend and he was haggling price and said he would need to do the timing belt soon .. bla bla.. anyway, BS.


Well, the car doesnt just come in my sleep it is on my brain every minute of the day. For sure it is sold by the time I get to AUS, get to Sydney and check it out.. but I figure just wait again for the right vehicle to come up.

Thanks again.. (please tell me anything you think a 4 year odl should know.. I'll appreciate it)

Jim

Bloody Td5 off the market as of this arvo. bugger. was really after the wagen, but there is a 300Tdi dual cab that is cheaper but obviously older.. mmm?

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Originally Posted by Terrain Vehicles

We have been servicing TD5s since they first came out, and we have never had to replace a timing chain. We have only seen two engine failures, both caused by one problem...the driver! One tried to sqeeze too much power out of it and melted a piston, the other decided to keep going when the temperature gauge went into the red. After all, he was only 100 miles from home... :confused:

A handfull of head gaskets, and a fair share of wiring looms, but other than that the TD5 is a great engine.

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I've seen the timing chain adjusters fail and go bad

Injector loom, failed turbos, oil pump bolts, injector looms, head gaskets, injector looms, head gaskets, injector looms:D

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Originally Posted by jimb

Guys,
TERRAIN VEHICLES
What sort of problems do you usual have with Td5's? Just want to make sure when stuff comes up I can afford it and I don't have my dream car sitting on the street undriveable like a broke uni student.. Great to know about those timing chains. Had a mercedes station wagen (not what you think) bought it for 200 euro, 1997, beats on the autobaan, 3.2 litre motor and the family were safe as hell driving on summer holidays.. but it also had a chain... and I only found that out when a guy was buying it last weekend and he was haggling price and said he would need to do the timing belt soon .. bla bla.. anyway, BS.

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As mentioned above, oil in the injector wiring loom which if left un-checked will creep along the engine loom to the ECU and cause rough running/misfire. Normally cured by replacing the short injector loom, main engine loom, rocker cover gasket, etc. Parts cost £250-300 depending on age/model of the vehicle.

ABS sensors can cause problems, as can the hub bearings as you need to replace the whole hub if the latter goes.

Air springs are a bit of a weak spot if being used heavily, but you can get coil spring conversion kits.

Other than that, they are pretty good really. Service them when they need and they shouldn't let you down.