TD5 or PUMA? The perpetual question!

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Originally Posted by manic

A 2008 TDCI would be considered old by some. A 2013 is getting old and I doubt the TDCI ages any better than the older models. The 2008 TDCI on our trip was wandering all over the place with loose steering and leaked into the footwells when it rained.... Same old story.

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You cannot say that the new tdci powered defender is superior to the older motors because it has not stood the same test of time.

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See there you go - can't have it both ways. In a universe where old and new defenders are "the same" - how can the new not have stood the test of time!?

How can the new not have the "essence" steane proclaims to be the domain only of older Defenders - if there is nothing new about new Defenders!?

And if there is nothing different between old models and TDCi's - I most certainly claim TDCi's are better, just because they ARE newer. (C'mon: shiny new item vs same item but old --- new one is better.)

Truth is - the cry of "nothing new" about TDCi's is bollocks. Some things seem to never change (leaks in footwell etc) . But clearly some significant changes are in play. And because of that, you and steane do have a case - the TDCi does have to prove itself. (Are we there yet? - ref: the previous post about 230k mile TDCi)

We agree that the chassis/handling may only be better in a new TDCi because it's new. But then your point that a 2013 TDCi may be seen by some as old does have legs. How about my old 2013 TDCi, it still handles as well as new, even at high speeds, no suspension or steering parts yet changed, doesn't wander all over the road.

So is the "better only because it's new" argument getting a bit thin too? Now that there "old" TDCi's around and at least one I know of is still going well on original running gear (and a whole lot more too I reckon). Can't have that both ways either.

Never owned a TD5, so I'm only one of those guys who's "read" about it!!, but I DO know that TD5 owners LOVE their engine, and obviously for good reason.
However, IMHO, the Puma 2.2 does a good job, a VERY good job, in view of its small capacity, & weight of the Defender.
But for me, the advantage of the Puma, is not the engine, but the 6 speed OD gearbox, which makes long distance driving an absolute dream,....around 2000rpm @ 100ks,.....that is the main benefit for me, plus of course the A/C system is better, as is the stereo, but for me mainly, it's the OD gearbox.
Pickles.

Got to agree about the gearbox. Our 2.4 2010 pulls our small 1.5t van much much better than our 3ltr Prado did. In that if you kicked down a gear all you got was more noise no extra grunt.
Plus the vehicle drives as straight as it ever did at 140K without wandering or other older car habits. Apart from axles made from cheese that is.:(
Not a bad vehicle so far.
AlanH.

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Originally Posted by Pickles2

Never owned a TD5, so I'm only one of those guys who's "read" about it!!, but I DO know that TD5 owners LOVE their engine, and obviously for good reason.
However, IMHO, the Puma 2.2 does a good job, a VERY good job, in view of its small capacity, & weight of the Defender.
But for me, the advantage of the Puma, is not the engine, but the 6 speed OD gearbox, which makes long distance driving an absolute dream,....around 2000rpm @ 100ks,.....that is the main benefit for me, plus of course the A/C system is better, as is the stereo, but for me mainly, it's the OD gearbox.
Pickles.

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Had both (still have the TDCi) and the TDci is a cut above...

Saying that, would have a TD5 any day, brilliant engine...

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Originally Posted by ATH

Got to agree about the gearbox. Our 2.4 2010 pulls our small 1.5t van much much better than our 3ltr Prado did. In that if you kicked down a gear all you got was more noise no extra grunt.
Plus the vehicle drives as straight as it ever did at 140K without wandering or other older car habits. Apart from axles made from cheese that is.:(
Not a bad vehicle so far.
AlanH.

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Absolutely! The gearbox is damn good. The OD 6th is excellent on the highways.

Equally good (and far different to earlier Defenders) is the very low 1st gear in off-road and towing scenarios (and even bumper to bumper traffic jams)

Getting rid of a LOT of driveline slack recently with installation of HD drive flanges was an eye opener for me. Driving away from the workshop (yes I paid someone to do such a simple job for me) I really thought "Hey! Did the mechanic slip a full Toyota driveline in!?"

I.e. The excellent gearbox, with much reduced driveline slop, was allowed to shine even more!

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Originally Posted by tact

See there you go - can't have it both ways. In a universe where old and new defenders are "the same" - how can the new not have stood the test of time!?

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Don't get silly now.

I fear you may have a tendency to twist words in absurd ways. I observed that not much has changed. Perhaps I should rephrase that and say that they come across as incredibly similar. The puma's feel more refined on the road.

The post about the 200,000 mile puma is not very impressive considering it was serviced with new oil and filters every week. There are 400,000+ mile TDI's running around on vegetable oil.

Personally I hope the TDCI's run on and on and turn out to be the most reliable, rust free and lasting Defender ever. Perhaps it will turn out to be the best generation to ever leave Solihull. The jury is still out. But what is great about the `defender` is that from 1980's to present all of them can be built up beyond current factory spec in your own back yard!

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Originally Posted by MrLandy

Has anyone done 200,000km in a TDCI? Interested to know how engine/gearbox are feeling at middle age?

Obviously the body, chassis and dynamics haven't changed, but quietness and smoothness have changed a little. But mercifly not too much! ...Otherwise it would be a 'new' Defender!

Everything definately loosens up. Rattles. My 2014 already has classic Defender body creaks over rough terrain. Flex. Like an airplane. Love it. Character and smooth humble power. The Defender TDCI is beautiful.

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There's probably more TDCi's with 200K on the clock,and flogged all the way than you can poke a stick at.Engine life is a stupid question in my opinion. Pat

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Originally Posted by manic

Don't get silly now.

I fear you may have a tendency to twist words in absurd ways. I observed that not much has changed. Perhaps I should rephrase that and say that they come across as incredibly similar. The puma's feel more refined on the road.

The post about the 200,000 mile puma is not very impressive considering it was serviced with new oil and filters every week. There are 400,000+ mile TDI's running around on vegetable oil.

Personally I hope the TDCI's run on and on and turn out to be the most reliable, rust free and lasting Defender ever. Perhaps it will turn out to be the best generation to ever leave Solihull. The jury is still out. But what is great about the `defender` is that from 1980's to present all of them can be built up beyond current factory spec in your own back yard!

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Fear not, good Sir. Change the 4 occurrences where I used words to the effect of "the same". Change them to "incredibly similar" or words to that effect.

The result is incredibly little impact on my points. Without any twisting or turning.

In any case I really don't subscribe to the idea that the older defenders and the TDCi's are "incredibly similar".

Whilst there are major similarities (chassis, suspension, most body work, and some of the driveline are shared), there are major differences in very key areas:
- totally different engines with different, variable, turbos
- better power delivery i.e. more of it and better spread than TD5 per my 2013 Defender product brochure from Land Rover. Better for the highway, towing, and off-road also per the brochure from LR. (Yes, the TD5 is actually in print on the LR TDCi brochure as noted here).
- totally different gearbox. "Slicker" gear changes were also mentioned in the brochure, improving the driving experience. There seems to be a body of user experience also backing this up.
- with more gears, lower low gear, higher top gear (and again according to the LR brochure brings improvements over past models on the highway, off-road, and towing.)

So my conclusion is that in the very significant areas where the older defenders and TDCi models ARE incredibly similar, perhaps "the same" - newer is better just because it is new.

In the major areas where the old and new models are vastly different - then perhaps it's arguable whether the TDCi will in time prove to be as durable as the older models. What is not arguable is that TDCi's are by and large doing pretty well and some are getting up there in the age and mileage stakes.

Evolution is a gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.

Accept the change for what it is, whether you like it or not the puma is the cherry on the cake when it comes to defenders.

My opinion.


Sent from my GT-I9505 using AULRO mobile app

This is AULRO,we don't like change,well some don't. Pat