Auto Transmission for Puma

Hi Babs

Ritters in Melbourne can also do the Ashcroft conversion for about the same price.

It is better to go with the compushift because the auto conversion with the manual kick down will make the defender gutless.

Cheers

Steve

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Originally Posted by Babs

Ok. I have had a chat to Davies Performance Landies and have been talk out of the Ashcroft Auto conversion. The reason apparently the conversion leaves you with a loss of power, and overheating when towing. It's apparently the 300tdi disco 4 speed auto.

Then I had a phone call back today from Wholesale Automatics in Melbourne and he's spoken with Ascroft and will bring in the adapters, get a local box and rebuild it (so new box) and they are already a Compushift dealer. He has quoted me 14K drive away with warranty.

He has a different opinion to DPL and does not think it will overheat, as you can change the settings with the Compushift to suit the type of driving you do. As far as a loss of power he says it is minimal "barely noticeable" were his words. He said around 5% or less power loss but an increase in torque with the lock up torque converter. He seems to think it will be a good thing.

The question is, will the old TDi box be a good reliable auto conversion. I need to speak with people who have already had this conversion done. I'm thinking UK forums, does anyone have any suggestions?

Any 300 TDi auto Disco owners that could comment, it would be appreciated.

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Originally Posted by Steve Td5 130

Hi Babs Ritters in Melbourne can also do the Ashcroft conversion for about the same price. It is better to go with the compushift because the auto conversion with the manual kick down will make the defender gutless. Cheers Steve

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Cheers.

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Originally Posted by Bush65

Wholesale Automatics have a good reputation and their conversions for Toyota transmissions are favoured in the USA (but they complain about the pricing).

From memory, the ZF22 from a Tdi disco can be beefed up with extra clutch plates, etc. However the torque convertor size is limited by the available space in the bell housing, it has the advantage $$$$wise in not being electronic controlled. If going to this trouble, I would think twice before using the 300Tdi auto in a heavier and more powerful Defender.

IIRC the torque convertor size issue is one important reason why Ashcroft use the stronger ZF24 from a rangie. Unfortunately being electronic controlled you would need to add the very expensive compushift.

Some people in this thread are indicating the Disco II has the same transmission as the rangie, but IIRC it is simply an electronic controlled version of the smaller ZF22, not 24 as used in rangies.

This should be on the Ashcroft website, but you may need to dig down a bit to find all. If Ashcroft contradict my ramblings, then be guided by them.

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Hi,

We use the disco 2 V8 electronic 4HP22 with a new bellhousing and the Compushift to control it,

You don't need the 24 with the TDCi engine the 22 is fine, we have done over 150 of these now,

The cooler we use works fine but we have fitted an additional cooler on a couple of vehicles, ie very heavy 110 overlanding in Africa,

We do now actually fit the V8 converter in place of the smaller 300 one, great for tuned 300's and 2.8's running on the 300 Autobox :

300 TDi Heavy Duty Torque Converter - Ashcroft Transmissions

Dave

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Originally Posted by ashtrans

Hi, We use the disco 2 V8 electronic 4HP22 with a new bellhousing and the Compushift to control it, You don't need the 24 with the TDCi engine the 22 is fine, we have done over 150 of these now, The cooler we use works fine but we have fitted an additional cooler on a couple of vehicles, ie very heavy 110 overlanding in Africa, We do now actually fit the V8 converter in place of the smaller 300 one, great for tuned 300's and 2.8's running on the 300 Autobox : 300 TDi Heavy Duty Torque Converter - Ashcroft Transmissions Dave

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Hi Dave,

I have been told that towing with the 2.2 Puma and your auto conversion that I will get overheating and a loss of power especially on take off????

Apparently there is a European couple who are travelling around the world that were here in OZ and were having that exact same problem, they have apparently since converted back to a manual gearbox. ????

I'm keen to do an auto conversion but not at a sacrifice of overheating when towing or significant power loss??? Any thoughts????

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just to be clear, when you say over heating, are you referring to the gearbox or engine?

will your remapped 2.2 put out more torque than the remapped TD5's?
Lots of Td5's running around towing stuff.
The ZF22's will run all day if the temps are controlled. synthetic oil and an extra gearbox oil cooler covers that.
Engine temp is a whole 'nother ball game. but a decent pyrometer and water temp guage will soon tell you the truth.;)

Autos do reduce available power, because of internal losses (that is the heat that is created).

The loss is greatly reduced when the torque convertor is 'locked'.

Power is a function of velocity, it will always be low during take-off. This is when torque is important. The engine never produces sufficient torque, so gearing by reducing rpm's, multiply the torque.

The torque convertor performs a similar, but different function. It increases the available torque at the road, by slipping so the engine operating speed is higher and can develop more torque.

Once the vehicle is up to speed the torque convertor locks up, reducing power losses and the heat created.

So yes the auto will be more sluggish compared to a manual, but ........

Some members here have had issues with Puma engine overheating. The ECU protects the engine from overheating, but the worry is the sudden loss of power, at times when that can get you into trouble. You might need a change of pants if you overtook a semi up a hill, pulled back into the same lane, then lost all power while xx tonnes is rapidly filling your rear view mirrors.

An automatic transmission cooler in front of the radiator will have an impact on the engine cooling system.

Until someone sorts out the issues, it will cost money, trial and rework. What works in the UK, won't guarantee the same results here, with summer temps double what they have.

I recall George130 on aulro, bought the automatic TD5 130 that had belonged to Bruce Davis' wife (before her tragic accident). It had been worked over by Bruce so had much more power than stock. George130 had a good deal of problems with the auto, mostly relating to overheating, and took a lot to sort out.

I don't doubt what Dave Ashcroft says, but if it was me, I would use the biggest transmission cooler I could get, and would also upgrade the radiator. Be aware that another member bought an upgraded radiator for a Puma from Alisport in the UK and it made little change to his cooling problems. Again I caution about differences between here and the UK.

Wholesale Autos working with Dave Ashcroft should put you straight on the transmission side, but no one has yet gone to a 'real' specialist in cooling systems here to get the engine cooling system sorted - the issue is not whether they can do it, rather the lack of experience with Land Rovers, and the time and cost of one off custom work.

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Originally Posted by uninformed

just to be clear, when you say over heating, are you referring to the gearbox or engine?

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Gearbox. :)

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Originally Posted by Bush65

Autos do reduce available power, because of internal losses (that is the heat that is created). The loss is greatly reduced when the torque convertor is 'locked'. Power is a function of velocity, it will always be low during take-off. This is when torque is important. The engine never produces sufficient torque, so gearing by reducing rpm's, multiply the torque. The torque convertor performs a similar, but different function. It increases the available torque at the road, by slipping so the engine operating speed is higher and can develop more torque. Once the vehicle is up to speed the torque convertor locks up, reducing power losses and the heat created. So yes the auto will be more sluggish compared to a manual, but ........ Some members here have had issues with Puma engine overheating. The ECU protects the engine from overheating, but the worry is the sudden loss of power, at times when that can get you into trouble. You might need a change of pants if you overtook a semi up a hill, pulled back into the same lane, then lost all power while xx tonnes is rapidly filling your rear view mirrors. An automatic transmission cooler in front of the radiator will have an impact on the engine cooling system. Until someone sorts out the issues, it will cost money, trial and rework. What works in the UK, won't guarantee the same results here, with summer temps double what they have. I recall George130 on aulro, bought the automatic TD5 130 that had belonged to Bruce Davis' wife (before her tragic accident). It had been worked over by Bruce so had much more power than stock. George130 had a good deal of problems with the auto, mostly relating to overheating, and took a lot to sort out. I don't doubt what Dave Ashcroft says, but if it was me, I would use the biggest transmission cooler I could get, and would also upgrade the radiator. Be aware that another member bought an upgraded radiator for a Puma from Alisport in the UK and it made little change to his cooling problems. Again I caution about differences between here and the UK. Wholesale Autos working with Dave Ashcroft should put you straight on the transmission side, but no one has yet gone to a 'real' specialist in cooling systems here to get the engine cooling system sorted - the issue is not whether they can do it, rather the lack of experience with Land Rovers, and the time and cost of one off custom work.

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Well said ;)

And that's the correct information I was looking for. "Nail on the Head"

Thanks Bush.

So the auto is now out of the question, time for a new post on a booster to lighten the clutch. :)

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Hi John,

I wouldn't disagree with any of that,

when used in your extreme environment you need to take a holistic approach for a conversion to be reliable, this means that you need to look at gearing, cooling, converter lockup speed for both economy and less heat generation and engine cooling.

I will leave the engine as this is outside my domain but as suggested the transmission heat will have an effect on the engine rad efficiency. I was not aware they suffer from poor cooling in stock form, a prime example of the differences we see in different continents.

It would depend what you were towing but to get this type of vehicle anywhere near reliable you would want to drop the transfer case from 1.211 to 1.667 or 1.410, adjust the converter lockup speed to 5mph under your normal cruising speed and as John suggested fitting a good size cooler, on a normal puma we fit one between the fan and rad, inside the cowl which is 300 x 300 x 50mm, on a few vehicles we have fitted a second one in front of the rad by moving the AC rad to the side and putting it next to it, also fit a transmission temp gauge and a overheat lamp.

Its all about the gearing, e.g. one customer pulls tourist trains in low box all day in 40 deg heat with a train weight of 12 tonnes, another customer uses the 2.4, 2.2 and 3.2 with the ZF in 7 tonne crop sprayers. The UK MOD use a 2.8 TDi with the ZF , a 1.6 transfer case and 4.11 gears in the axles,

I was aware of some traveling Germans who had a problem in Australia with an auto puma which we supplied and was installed by a garage in Germany, I dont know the cause of their problems but I guarantee it will be because the gearing / heat issues weren't addressed.

I short they can be made to be reliable but all these factors need to be considered and fully tested before I would venture into the bush with confidence, you also have the issue that should you have a failure, an auto box takes specialist knowledge, a bush mechanic has a far greater chance fixing a manual.

Dave