There's nothing wrong with passion. :D. PatQuote:
Originally Posted by Andrew86
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There's nothing wrong with passion. :D. PatQuote:
Originally Posted by Andrew86
I've been considering JDNSW's previous post, sage advice and history. Thanks John. Yes it's easy to forget how collective consciousness builds over time and also how circumstances affect outcomes across time as well.
"...despite their success, Landrover is still a small manufacturer in global terms, and I have to wonder whether they will attempt to wrest this market back from the likes of Toyota, or simply merge the Defender label into their existing, successful, market."
It's a testament to the design of 90/110/130 (and its predecessors) that it has survived, despite all of the circumstances that would have seen a lesser design fade into memory long ago. To me this illustrates what is so special about these vehicles, the visionary simplicity of the design.. and to me this plays a big part in explaining the unexplainable... that intangible feeling we all get when we drive them.
Of course a small vehicle manufacturer in trouble needs to take the route of developing vehicles that will sell en mass. And Land Rover have done an amazing job of reinventing the brand with Range Rover and Discovery and in the process saving the brand financially and also becoming arguably the leader in new market segments of high end ultra capable and tech advanced 4wheel drive vehicles. Who would have thought that the exclusive and expensive Range Rover would pave the way for such a massive expansion of city based large 4wd ownership... Etc.
I wonder though, if the same commitment were made to evolving the Defender earlier and not reducing customer service outside city centres... what its market share right across this country would be now?
In the meantime however, the market segment that Defender grew out of: the work oriented, no frills, ultra heavy duty vehicle became a neglected category (and not only by LR, also notably by Toyota and Nissan) ...this is why the lighter duty dualcabs have begun to fill that space to an extent (especially when 5 star ancap became mandatory on mine sites). The so-called 'dinosaur' vehicles of Defender and Tojo 70 series have not evolved to anywhere near the same extent. This, as JDNSW points out, is a legacy of financial necessity and manufacturers focussing on what was perceived as the main game - the mass recreational and burgeoning luxury markets. The New Nissan Patrol is a case in point too, it has really become a saloon and is no longer a serious 4WD.
So where to from here? Is the serious HD fullsize working 4WD really a dinosaur? or is there the potential to re-design for the future? ...Many here have the conviction that this is what the next Defender will be. I think it's entirely possible, but I'm yet to see the evidence. Statements from Land Rover about "competing with Hilux", "wheels being interchangeable with Hilux (what the!?)" and aiming for the "look of durability" are more weighted towards the outcome for the new Defender not being what I'd hope for.
Hence my (sometimes provocative banter I agree) approach to the discussion. ...someone's gotta keep the ******** honest B)
Cheers,
"Statements from LR saying compete with hilux .... Wheels from hilux"
Settling on wheels with the same PCD as hilux means what? To me it doesn't mean the new defender will BE like a hilux in many more ways. Just solved the mass market problem for one potential accessory, more choices for rims and more chance to find spares in remote places.
Nothing but a good move. Happy if that extended to many other "commodity" parts.
What does "aiming to compete with hilux" mean? Must that mean lookalike? Must that mean perform like, and be built like hilux?
May I posit that competitors to hilux already include complete lookalike, built alike, perform alike models from a number of manufacturers. Other competitors already break that formula (Amarok, no transfer case etc).
I reckon LR can break further from the "hilux formula" and still be a "competitor". A competitor without being a clone.
Waiting on official news on the new Defender.
Attachment 101634
"A replacement model for the Defender was being developed to be launched in December 2016, said the manufacturer."
Land Rover Defender Solihull production line ends - BBC News
The article has been ammended so that the last line no longer has a date
Regards,
Tote
"Indecision delays the appearance of Land Rover's Defender replacement for at least three years"
"In the JLR backrooms, they know life would be easier without either the Defender or the need to provide a replacement. The trouble is, whenever you ask people what a Land Rover is, they point out, or sketch, their version of the off-road icon."
I'd hazard a guess, the problem is that none of the designers drive Defenders!
That's a good point Mr Landy, and its a worry. Designers these days are just that. They all go to the same schools and spew out the same dross in slightly different form, much the same as fashion designers.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLandy
The original design for the Land Rover was an Engineer,who saw a need and filled it.
Is there still a need for such a vehicle? Can a simple vehicle still be produced for a special purpose, whilst having to comply with all the Nanny State rules which have been put in place to prevent it from doing harm when not in it's designated environment?
Despite all these concerns, I am still confident they can and will. Because if they do, they will undoubtedly clean up. At least for that period if time it takes for their competitors to come up with a copy.
The needs of customers have changed though, and so too have expectations of comfort, refinement and versatility. People expect cars to be a lot of things now. Rugged enough to be a work horse, comfortable enough for long trips with the family, powerful and fuel efficient, reliable etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by cuppabillytea
To design the new Defender to meet just one of those needs (as was the case with the original) just wouldn't work today. It'll need to do a lot of things well if they're going to reach their 70,000 units/year target.
I don't think versatility takes away from the purity of the Defender name, as long as it can still do the important things as well as the original.
The series 1 was popular as it met a need better than anything else on the market. Other makers responded and began making something similar, then innovated further and further to meet a broader need. Innovation in design was inevitable. LR did and still does some great innovating. The Defender design while a good vehicle was more antique than innovative compared to other offerings and didn't appeal to enough buyers to be viable.
