Rear wheel bearings

Hi 200 defenda, I didn't drill and tap the maxidrive flanges they are made of 4140 steel, and i was worried about breaking the tap.

to drain the oil I unbolt the drive flanges and let the oil run out onto a sheet of tin and into a tray.

yes the hubs share the diff oil, they will fill from the diff , but will not drain back when you drain the diff.

be sure to put some teflon tape & a little grease on the big hex steel drive flange hub caps the thread is fine and they can be very hard to remove , ( especially i the bush) if you leave them for a while, I recommend you remove & refit them every year.

cheers simmo

pm sent

X2 for the thread tape and grease.
DON’T use thread sealant. The nut will be very difficult to remove the next time if you do.

I have only ever used gas sealant as it doesn’t set......

I have seen difficulties (one case) in removing the nut when thread tape was applied.

Purchased my 1995 130 in 1998 with 70,838km with standard axle shafts and seals. disks all round. Salsbury diff. 300tdi
70,838km to 162,299km - have no records but rear bearings frequently needing attention
162,299km regreased rear bearings and replaced plastic caps
165,661km replaced rear bearings and grease
183,019km installed Maxidrive axles, flanges, and difflock. (splines on drive flange and axle shot.). Seals changed such that bearings now oil-lubricated.
310,687km. Adjusted bearings as wobble in brake disk was forcing brake pads apart too much, requiring extra brake pedal effort/travel.
374,699km. Again adjusted bearings as wobble in brake disk was forcing brake pads apart too much, requiring extra brake pedal effort/travel.
408,870km on vehicle now.
My conclusions:
1. Original LR arrangement of grease no good as spilnes insufficently lubricated.
2. Maxidrive equipment and change to oil-lubrication proven over almost 250,000km

I have seen this argument many times and I am curious.....
(My puma defender comes with grease lubbed hub bearings..And I have been thinking of changing to oil lub)

Correct me if I am wrong. My understanding is that oil and grease both are lubricants.(onky discuss mineral oil here)

So first the mineral oil was invented as lubricants. It serves as a barrier between rolling surface...

Then people wanted to increase the viscosity of the oil. So they thicken the mineral oil by adding e.g. lithium based soap and born the grease...

So the bearing grease is just thicken oil....And the difference is essentially only viscosity....

Why would anyone prefer a lubricants with low viscosity for 4wd bearings? Is it to achieve low friction? Ease of maintenance?

I understand an avoidance of engergy lost due to friction and high speed are the reason why the transfer case and gearbox choose oil as lubricants...But it is the same for the road wheels? Where contamination is a bit of a problem? And also load bearing concerns (slow rotation)?

I changed my wheel bearings twice now, in both times, bearing grease was contaminated by external abbrasives (likely via the stupid rubber cap). And these destroy the race and bearing surface..

If oil is used there, won't the grits dirt travel further to the diff and destroy the diff as well?

To recap, I think oil as lubricants is applicable in the case of high speed rotation (e.g. gearbox transfer box engine). And grease is prefered in the case of load bearing and likely contamination,e.g. wheel bearings, propshafts

And for these reasons I choose not to convert to oil lub bearings..

Cheers
Martin

The reason LR (BMW) changed to grease was for one part to stop oil leaks and unhappy customers. It’s not better than oil and many years have proved this. Do what makes you feel warm and fuzzy but don’t confuse that with sound engineering practices.

Not just Land Rover. I have done my research and Toyota Nissan they all moved from oil to grease. Even all the mining vehicles use grease now. But these heavy machines used automatic grease lubricator.

So if you use oil to lubricathe wheel bearings. It is splash lubrication so it is important to determine the oil level in the hub. And this will also need to be check routinely. and how would you do that?

Also if you raise the oil level in the diff, bear in mind that the diff is also splash lubricated, so it is likely the diff will be running hot because of that.

I suspect with the factory oil lub setup, the diff oil cavity is slightly raised so that to maintain the optimal oil level and temperature. Maybe an experienced expert can confirm this? Maybe land rover just doesn't care?


I never buy the "it has been working so it must be good" theory. First of all people usually don't report failure. This is report Bias.
Secondaly, I only live so long and see so many cars and obverses so many bearings.
My sample size is too small to draw any generalizable conclusions. Without sufficient database, the only supporting evidence one will have is theory....
But maybe an expert have more knowledge but yet he will also be limited by recall bias (meaning things he saw in the past was not documented at that time so what he recall now for the purpose of our discussion maybe biased towards his pre-set conclusion unconsciously

I am happy to learn new knowledge all day everyday....

Cheers
Martin

My experience with Defender axles is that problems are experienced with the splines at the drive flange ends with the standard Defender setup. The standard flanges have a rubber seal which is rather ineffective in tough conditions resulting in moisture getting in. No attempt seems to be made at the factory to provide lubrication for the splines so they fret & wear, leaving a red rusty powder deposit.

The conversion to oil lubrication solves this, provided better drive flanges are used (eg. Maxidrive/HiTuff/Ashcroft). Oil works its way along the stub-axle & into the hub assembly, & the spline ends get some oil as well. with front axles there are some downsides, the main one being the need to regularly inspect the swivel ball seals for leakage, & of course, to top up the swivel housing periodically, depending on which seals one removes.

With front axles there are advocates for the various methods of lubrication - one-shot grease for the swivels & separate greasing for the splines, oil from the axle seal outwards while leaving the axle tube seal in place, or removal of the axle tube seal allowing the diff oil to travel right out to the drive flange. Each has their good points, but the general concensus from many years of experience seems to be that oil lubrication is better, if one is prepared for the increase in maintenance which may be required.

With the rears, IMHO there is no doubt that oil is better as it is basically a "set & forget" scenario. It is messy at brake disc renewal time, but this is a small price to pay for better spline & bearing lubrication.

Cheers.

Lionel

Quote:

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Originally Posted by martnH

Not just Land Rover. I have done my research and Toyota Nissan they all moved from oil to grease. Even all the mining vehicles use grease now. But these heavy machines used automatic grease lubricator.

So if you use oil to lubricathe wheel bearings. It is splash lubrication so it is important to determine the oil level in the hub. And this will also need to be check routinely. and how would you do that?

Also if you raise the oil level in the diff, bear in mind that the diff is also splash lubricated, so it is likely the diff will be running hot because of that.

I suspect with the factory oil lub setup, the diff oil cavity is slightly raised so that to maintain the optimal oil level and temperature. Maybe an experienced expert can confirm this? Maybe land rover just doesn't care?


I never buy the "it has been working so it must be good" theory. First of all people usually don't report failure. This is report Bias.
Secondaly, I only live so long and see so many cars and obverses so many bearings.
My sample size is too small to draw any generalizable conclusions. Without sufficient database, the only supporting evidence one will have is theory....
But maybe an expert have more knowledge but yet he will also be limited by recall bias (meaning things he saw in the past was not documented at that time so what he recall now for the purpose of our discussion maybe biased towards his pre-set conclusion unconsciously

I am happy to learn new knowledge all day everyday....

Cheers
Martin

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how much fluid does LR spec for rear or front axle oil change. ... Calculate the empty volume inside the axle and related housings. Room for a bit extra without damage? Btw if you adding extra oil to lube the bearings or even the cv and bearings, this doesn’t mean you are increasing the level at the diff...

Get the specs for a early RRC and coil spring Land Rovers. These were their best as far as cv and wheel bearing set ups also, so don’t count going to grease as definitely an improvement.

since your not convinced by my experience 300,000 km on oil lubed bearings towing 250,000 of those, I can assure you Maxidrive highly recommend this conversion back to oil fed after decades of specialising in LR servicing and drive line upgrades.

i never check hub oil levels between services. Never check it at service either. Just change the oil and go.

Spline fretting, and wheel bearings failures were definitely less before LR changed to grease.

The only advantage of grease (and the reason it has been adopted) is that it does not readily leak. It does not provide as good lubrication, as, if it is displaced from a surface, it does not flow straight back in the way that oil does. The probable reason why oil lubricated bearings on Defenders last a lot better than grease lubricated ones though is, I suspect, because while if a seal is leaking the oil advertises the fact, and it tends to be fixed sooner rather than later, where with grease, a faulty seal does not let the grease out - but it does let the water and mud in.