Additional Traction - at cross roads with options.

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Originally Posted by Zeros

Hey Weeds, you say the “Car is being built up for an Overland trip, don’t want to chase hard tracks or bash and crash around 4WD parks, I just want to get to where I’m going easier without punishing the drive line”. ...why do you need lockers?

You’ll be doing the vast majority of your big kms on bitumen and fast dirt. Over 20 years of these kinds of trips all over the continent I’ve never needed any extra traction aids over standard in my Defender. ...but if I was going to add something it would be Ashcroft ATB’s all the way, starting with the centre diff. ATB’s on fast dirt and wet roads will be working for you all the time. Simple, automatic and no locking required. They would give extra driveline all the time, but needless to say I’d only invest in them after making sure the radiator, water pump, alternator, bearings, etc are in as new condition.

Keeping it simple, focussing on the basics and lightening the load in every way possible is the key to successful trouble free overlanding imho.

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Why, on the recent high country trip I lost traction once on blue Rag and I had hit two rocky step up with more speed than I liked, with my old defer I would have had rear locker engaged and would have crawled over both with out risking driveline and it would have been Moorhouse and enjoyable. Like I said getting to the destination easier.

I agree that I have rarely need traction aids when touring but if there is the slightest chance of loss of traction I used to engage my rear locker on my tdi.....wombat holes only get created by many cars loosing traction therefore I’m doing my bit to reduce track damage and and get there without any extra strain on the driveline. Many years ago I was on a trip with a mate, he had four attempted getting up a hill and need to flog his car, I crawled up with both lockers on (could have had a cup of tea in my hand) he went and got lockers installed the next week, being a mechanic he could see the value.

Re: centre diff when the transmission needs to be removed.

As I have a sals ATB is not and option for the rear.

Keeping it simple.....a traction aid can reduce damage to the vehicle or get one into more trouble but generally being able to slowly crawl over anything tough that presents. We are pretty good when packing but we don’t tough it anymore. Plus removing the few luxuries wouldn’t save enough weight to make one rock step on a super cool track up a mountain to get the views.

Leaning towards a Detroit, now to find pricing from a supplier and somebody to install.

Cheers everybody for your input.

It's a pint of pee to install Weeds, I can talk you through that over the phone.

Hi weeds,
I am a theoretician (so correct me if I am wrong). I went to high country twice so I am not a completely newbie. I remember blue rag was easy when I was there the second time. The track was graded and they even removed the big rock near the top. Also Billy goat was heavily graded and pretty easy.

I prefer a full time 4wd compare to part time 4wd because of handling and safty. I think if your aim is to overland, safty and handling over long distance driving over various terrain is most important.

And for this reason, I don't like the Detroit no spin because it is an unlocker (axle is locked until you unlock it). To unlock the Detroit, you will need some differentiated torque between wheels and sometimes it is hard to achieve on a gravel/dirt/slippery terrain with limitrd traction. And if the Detroit is not unlocked, the truck will be dragging one wheel and turning circle increased. Afterall it is designed to go straight and straight only (and turn but only at tarmac). (I.e I don't think you can do U turn in the muddy paddock with a detroit no-spin hehe..Must be quite a scene to see one trying

And also for the same reason, I don't really like the limited slip (although I bought ashcroft ATB recently....). It is because the limited slip will send power to a wheel with least traction. And this will be unpredictable as you are not sure which side will get traction if you are pouncing around.also you are not sure if this power is continuous.(if a wheel lifted for a fraction of second, the torque bias will decrease significantly).

And here I will present a (rare?) situation where both no-spin and Lsd will make the vehicle unsafe and that is steep slippery downhill and with a crown slope (see the photo attached). In this case, it will be very hard for the truck equipped with no-spin or Lsd to go straight down the slope becusse of the way differential speed is managed. The truck is likely to move to one side of the slope.

And in such situation, the open diff (or a locker) will shine. With a locker, you can always disable the locking and return to open diff and all wheels on the truck will move freely this going down such a slope safely. It's like free flowing water, going to the lowest point.
That said, a long wheel base will negate some of such issues.

And finally, I have gone ashcroft ATB because my truck has traction control. I go this way because I acceptted the trade-off. But if I have plenty of money, I will go ashcroft air locker. Since your truck doesn't have traction control, I think a rear a locker will be the best option for overlanding.

P.s. I think TMJ prolocker is also pretty good.and ARB has changed its design so the seal is static now. I don't think any of them still made in Australia. Manufacturing moved to other country for $$$$$$$$$$$$

Cheers
Martinhttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...018/04/382.jpg

ATB in rover is equivalent to Truetrac in a Dana 60 Salisbury

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Originally Posted by Bearman

It's a pint of pee to install Weeds, I can talk you through that over the phone.

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^This.
Without starting a buy local debate: GBR supplied mine in 4 days to my door in Alice at almost $700 less than supply only local.
Even with pending GST changes its a tough argument.

Thanks for the detailed response martn.....

Umm, more to ponder

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Originally Posted by weeds

Why, on the recent high country trip I lost traction once on blue Rag and I had hit two rocky step up with more speed than I liked, with my old defer I would have had rear locker engaged and would have crawled over both with out risking driveline and it would have been Moorhouse and enjoyable. Like I said getting to the destination easier.

I agree that I have rarely need traction aids when touring but if there is the slightest chance of loss of traction I used to engage my rear locker on my tdi.....wombat holes only get created by many cars loosing traction therefore I’m doing my bit to reduce track damage and and get there without any extra strain on the driveline. Many years ago I was on a trip with a mate, he had four attempted getting up a hill and need to flog his car, I crawled up with both lockers on (could have had a cup of tea in my hand) he went and got lockers installed the next week, being a mechanic he could see the value.

Re: centre diff when the transmission needs to be removed.

As I have a sals ATB is not and option for the rear.

Keeping it simple.....a traction aid can reduce damage to the vehicle or get one into more trouble but generally being able to slowly crawl over anything tough that presents. We are pretty good when packing but we don’t tough it anymore. Plus removing the few luxuries wouldn’t save enough weight to make one rock step on a super cool track up a mountain to get the views.

Leaning towards a Detroit, now to find pricing from a supplier and somebody to install.

Cheers everybody for your input.

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Yes it comes down to the definition of overlanding vs hard tracks. Also where you’re planning to go.

....Maybe a centre ATB and rear locker is the go if your version of overlanding also includes hard tracks in the high country. 👍

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Originally Posted by Zeros

Yes it comes down to the definition of overlanding vs hard tracks. Also where you’re planning to go.

....Maybe a centre ATB and rear locker is the go if your version of overlanding also includes hard tracks in the high country. [emoji106]

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Yes what is the definition of over-landing/touring? Different for everybody.....I don’t chase hard tracks but they may pop up on journey....... It’d be a shame to be in the middle of Kazakhstan going somewhere awesome and open diffs with OEM axles prevents me, kinda log way to turn around.

If I go a selectable locker and it doesn’t get used at least I have confidence it’s there if needed.

If I go an unlocker I guess it’s in play all the time.

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Originally Posted by martnH

Hi weeds,
I am ......

And also for the same reason, I don't really like the limited slip (although I bought ashcroft ATB recently....). It is because the limited slip will send power to a wheel with least traction. And this will be unpredictable as you are not sure which side will get traction if you are pouncing around.also you are not sure if this power is continuous.(if a wheel lifted for a fraction of second, the torque bias will decrease significantly).

... Cheers
Martin

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perhaps just nit picking but an ATB is NOT a limited slip diff , provided that you have some resistance on the spinning wheel it will send the torque (hence power) to the slowest spinning (most traction) wheel. Granted a wheel in the air means it's the same as an open diff, but a bit of brake can fix this. (I've got traction control so other than when I had a play with some fuses out I don't have a huge amount of experience with it)

Mine has ATB's all round but the front went in about a 18 mths before the back, and then a year and a bit later the centre was done. I mainly do sand and gravel, the ATB in just the front made so much difference, TC light came on so much less, but that's all be said before.

I've only driven a Hilux with a rear detroit in it and then only for a few days but the change in steering in medium sand and dirt roads was not something I enjoyed but perhaps you'd get used to it. Soft and hard sand I hardly noticed any difference.

Regardless of the rear decision id be voteing for an ATB in the front.

I would fit the ARB diff locks. You know all of the advantages, they are 100% positive for when you're there to tour, are heavy and want NO fuss, they are open like a normal diffs when you don't want them so handling is always as expected, they are reliable and they are easy to get. They also don't need wheel spin to work which tears some tyres apart (ie lug removal). There is a lot of negative ARB, pro Ashcroft talk in LR circles, ARB is your option for the rear and I doubt very much that you will have any problems with either of them to be honest, but you like me have run them for a long time and have had good experiences with them, just about every other brand of 4WD that has a locker runs them and they are not so unique, especially with the update that has common parts. They're also made in Melbourne and the engineer is very easy to contact and a really great guy to chat with (in my case when investigating the build of hybrid lockers).