New Member - Don't know anything about Defenders - Questions

It sounds like you’re more interested in the image of a capable 4x4 than what you really need.

...if you want a buggy with big wheels for gnarly boulder hopping or beach posing, sure get a Wrangler. It would be perfect.

...but if, as you say, you really want to criss cross the continent and go to all the major spots you mention, 95% of your driving will be 1000’s of km on bitumen roads or dirt roads in varying conditions and then some places that you really need 4x4. When you get to a place whrre you really need a ‘capable’ 4x4 the Defender will easily do anything but the most extreme tracks. The more capable vehicle for all of this is a Defender.

I’ve driven a Jeep Wrangler on the highway. It was so uncomfortable, steering wandered, rough choppy tide, seats were terrible, loadspace is tiny. I wouldn’t touch one.

I’ve driven my Defender across Australia to most of the places you mention numerous times, have lived in the north, northwest, the western deserts, south of the country for the past 20 years. I’ve driven Land cruisers, Hilux, patrols, for work all over too.. If I have a choice, i wouldn’t drive anything other than my Defender.. it’s the most robust, comfortable and capable truck for 95% of all conditions available IMO. My second choice would be a Toyota. A Jeep Wrangler would be very low on the list.

My first choice would be a Defender. The only bias here comes from experience.

PSif you really want a capable truck for seriously gnarly tracks, see the story on Damian’s 90 in the latest: http://www.loaded4x4.com.au/issue-003/#161
I’d choose that over a Wrangler any day too.

Based on the questions you are asking and they way you seem to be thinking I think you should buy a Jeep
IMHO a Jeep may be more capable on rock steps or some other unique circumstance there will be no comparison in real world touring.
Jeeps (apart from maybe the very early military ones) have never been strong enough for carrying weight in a touring setting.
A Defender on the other hand is a good structure that generally handles rough conditions very well.

The issue you have with Land Rovers is you need to engineer some of the crap out of them this becomes frustrating to some and they give up others keep going and end up with a personalized result that works well.
I would be wary of the later models and arm yourself with knowledge.
I have been touring and working in many of the areas you mention for the last 40 years, all out capability isn't that critical but durability is.
While working for Toyota I found the product to be reliable if serviced properly but I still drive a Defender.

The modern thinking is you need 37 inch tyres, winches, diff locks etc just to drive on a dirt road this is nonsense its more about looks than any practical purpose. After all back in the 70s both locals and tourists drove old holdens and fords.
I have driven into very isolated locations to find Aboriginals in an XD falcon doing what I am doing.
I wouldn't mind a Jeep as a play thing but wouldn't use one in Outback Australia.

Having a JK wrangler 4 door and a Defender 130 in the family maybe I can add some value. Both vehicles have been reliable, The JK is a 2011 petrol model with 240,000 KM now and has the following bits:
Rhino roof Rack
ARB Bar
2" lift with Bilstein shocks
265/70 Mickey Thompson STZ tyres on original rims (transformed the ride and handling)
When we did the Tassie trip we had a winch on the front which made a noticeable difference to the handling

We've done a 4wd trip to Tassie and can't fault it off road but with 2 Adults and two Kids it struggled to carry all our stuff, we worked around this by base camping and doing day trips but we took the transit sections pretty easy. What you say about the Wrangler's capability is pretty accurate with the few mods we have done it was easily as capable as the other vehicles on the trip which included Patrols, LC75s, Prados etc. The Jeep, like the Defender is an acquired taste and after you drive one you will love it or hate it but SWMBO loves hers and I don't mind it.

The Defender replaced a Disco3 and is a Feb 2016 delivery 130 Cab Chassis with the following bits:
ARB bar
Mulgo Ex Box
Winch ( from the Jeep)
Lots of Dynamat
Exhaust wrap
Stock Suspension
7"rims with Hankook muddies replacing the 6.5" wolf rims with MTRs
The Defender has done Maralinga, The Anne Beadell, Googs track as well as some High country touring. The setup I have with a removable pod allows us to carry everything we need without having to worry about load. The girls complain about the lack of rear legroom particularly now that they are teenagers but they survive. Out of the box it is not as capable as the Disco 3, proven on Macfarlaines track last Easter, failing to proceed where Disco 3s and 4s went and where I have driven my Disco 3 with no issues. Despite this it is a capable tourer and the only things I would add are a rear locker and maybe a sill tank (I used a 200ltr transfer tank on the desert trip, the luxury of being able to carry lots of stuff)

I would be happy to take either vehicle on just about any trip and the difference between them comes down to their daily use, SWMBO drives the Jeep every day but the Defender is mostly a farm truck and tourer and sits in the shed most of the week. I think driving it every day would probably get tiresome, particularly through Canberra traffic.

Attachment 143947
The rest of the convoy wasn't brave enough to follow us through here but we were keen.....

Attachment 143948
As Mentioned the Disco 3 and 4s made it up here but I ran out of traction.



Regards,
Tote

My only comment is based on my Neighbours who have a Wrangler - they love it and it hasn't given them any issues in the few years of ownership but fuel consumption of the petrol engine in it is 15LPH on the highway and clost to 20LPH around town - ouch. That's what they average with it after around 3 years of ownership and around 100,000KM on the clock now. If fuel economy is important in your descision, check out a Jeep forum ask that question to confirm it. My 86 Range Rover V8 does close to those figues...

Thanks for the feedback.

If I went a wrangler it would be the 2.8 CRD diesel not the petrol model. I also would be looking at 2010 as the last one to buy as the 2010 model was the last to be made without a DPF filter. Once 2011 came, they changed the interior (which I don't like, looks too car like rather than 4x4 like) and the Diesels got DPFs and EGR's that people get deleted (illegal to delete even though everyone does).

In the defender, I would be looking at the 4 Door I assume as it has much more space seats down than a 2 door yes? Same reason the 2 door JK wrangler was no good to me... can't fit anything in that. 4 Door with seats out and roof rack = decent space.

It is just my wife and I... rear seats would be down so I would have space to carry stuff, same as would be in the JKU wrangler... either down or taken out rear seats to have the max space available in the rear.

Are all Defenders Manual? Is there a way to get it in Auto?

What is the Diesel specs... i know the 2.8 CRD in wrangler is a pretty good motor and has 400/460? Nm of torque which is pretty good. You can fit a cummins Diesel in the wrangler too if you wanted to.

Defender - what can be done here?

Anyone around the Sydney area (Richmond/Windsor direction) with a Defender and got some spare time to show?

Before I forget... reliability wise? - So many people (Toyota people) say not to touch Land rovers. Anything goes wrong remote Australia (Northern territory, Kimberleys, Gibbs river road etc etc etc) and you could be waiting months to have the car sorted out and nobody knows how to do anything on them. But people that own Toyotas say that about jeeps too and I know many jeep people that only ever had problems with Toyotas and none with the Jeep. So...

And again - is the 200L fuel tank really necessary or is the 140L the Diesel wrangler can get more than enough (practically speaking)?

And lastly, perhaps how I plan to use it...

Living near Sydney, I want to go to Lithgow, Zigzag railway etc as there are 4x4 tracks out that way that go over river crossings etc, the Watagans north of Sydney, Warren bungles and whatever else is worth going to look at... I also want to go to the victorian high country, up to cape york, across to Alice springs and doing the west/east McDonald ranges, along with the hot springs (hot springs are accessible only via 4x4), Gibbs river road, the Kimberleys, Flinders ranges and so on.

Basically want to see all the great stuff to see with some 4x4 tracks... I am not the sort of person who is going to just jump in his car on the weekend and go blow fuel on climbing tracks just for the hell of doing something for fun. Unless I am going 'somewhere' I don't see the point to wearing the car out. I like tracks with a purpose, maybe a lookout at the end or something rather, not just some banged up road in the forest where you cant see anything but trees and the whole purpose of it is just for 4x4 fun... I won't be doing that. Maybe if there was a fishing hole or camping spot somewhere through that difficult track... I would do it (as I am trying to get somewhere), but just for the hell of running the car through holes, mud and whatever else when there is a smooth dirt road right next to it going to the same place... well, I would take the smooth dirt road right next to it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tote

Having a JK wrangler 4 door and a Defender 130 in the family maybe I can add some value. Both vehicles have been reliable, The JK is a 2011 petrol model with 240,000 KM now and has the following bits:
Rhino roof Rack
ARB Bar
2" lift with Bilstein shocks
265/70 Mickey Thompson STZ tyres on original rims (transformed the ride and handling)
When we did the Tassie trip we had a winch on the front which made a noticeable difference to the handling

We've done a 4wd trip to Tassie and can't fault it off road but with 2 Adults and two Kids it struggled to carry all our stuff, we worked around this by base camping and doing day trips but we took the transit sections pretty easy. What you say about the Wrangler's capability is pretty accurate with the few mods we have done it was easily as capable as the other vehicles on the trip which included Patrols, LC75s, Prados etc. The Jeep, like the Defender is an acquired taste and after you drive one you will love it or hate it but SWMBO loves hers and I don't mind it.

The Defender replaced a Disco3 and is a Feb 2016 delivery 130 Cab Chassis with the following bits:
ARB bar
Mulgo Ex Box
Winch ( from the Jeep)
Lots of Dynamat
Exhaust wrap
Stock Suspension
7"rims with Hankook muddies replacing the 6.5" wolf rims with MTRs
The Defender has done Maralinga, The Anne Beadell, Googs track as well as some High country touring. The setup I have with a removable pod allows us to carry everything we need without having to worry about load. The girls complain about the lack of rear legroom particularly now that they are teenagers but they survive. Out of the box it is not as capable as the Disco 3, proven on Macfarlaines track last Easter, failing to proceed where Disco 3s and 4s went and where I have driven my Disco 3 with no issues. Despite this it is a capable tourer and the only things I would add are a rear locker and maybe a sill tank (I used a 200ltr transfer tank on the desert trip, the luxury of being able to carry lots of stuff)

I would be happy to take either vehicle on just about any trip and the difference between them comes down to their daily use, SWMBO drives the Jeep every day but the Defender is mostly a farm truck and tourer and sits in the shed most of the week. I think driving it every day would probably get tiresome, particularly through Canberra traffic.

Attachment 143947
The rest of the convoy wasn't brave enough to follow us through here but we were keen.....

Attachment 143948
As Mentioned the Disco 3 and 4s made it up here but I ran out of traction.



Regards,
Tote

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Am I right in saying that the 130 misses out on TCS? If so can understand it not making it given the axle twisters and no ability here for some momentum. But with lockers the 130 in those conditions would own that climb compared to d4/4. Cheers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by G.man

Thanks for the feedback.

If I went a wrangler it would be the 2.8 CRD diesel not the petrol model. I also would be looking at 2010 as the last one to buy as the 2010 model was the last to be made without a DPF filter. Once 2011 came, they changed the interior (which I don't like, looks too car like rather than 4x4 like) and the Diesels got DPFs and EGR's that people get deleted (illegal to delete even though everyone does).

In the defender, I would be looking at the 4 Door I assume as it has much more space seats down than a 2 door yes? Same reason the 2 door JK wrangler was no good to me... can't fit anything in that. 4 Door with seats out and roof rack = decent space.

It is just my wife and I... rear seats would be down so I would have space to carry stuff, same as would be in the JKU wrangler... either down or taken out rear seats to have the max space available in the rear.

Are all Defenders Manual? Is there a way to get it in Auto?

What is the Diesel specs... i know the 2.8 CRD in wrangler is a pretty good motor and has 400/460? Nm of torque which is pretty good. You can fit a cummins Diesel in the wrangler too if you wanted to.

Defender - what can be done here?

Anyone around the Sydney area (Richmond/Windsor direction) with a Defender and got some spare time to show?

Before I forget... reliability wise? - So many people (Toyota people) say not to touch Land rovers. Anything goes wrong remote Australia (Northern territory, Kimberleys, Gibbs river road etc etc etc) and you could be waiting months to have the car sorted out and nobody knows how to do anything on them. But people that own Toyotas say that about jeeps too and I know many jeep people that only ever had problems with Toyotas and none with the Jeep. So...

And again - is the 200L fuel tank really necessary or is the 140L the Diesel wrangler can get more than enough (practically speaking)?

And lastly, perhaps how I plan to use it...

Living near Sydney, I want to go to Lithgow, Zigzag railway etc as there are 4x4 tracks out that way that go over river crossings etc, the Watagans north of Sydney, Warren bungles and whatever else is worth going to look at... I also want to go to the victorian high country, up to cape york, across to Alice springs and doing the west/east McDonald ranges, along with the hot springs (hot springs are accessible only via 4x4), Gibbs river road, the Kimberleys, Flinders ranges and so on.

Basically want to see all the great stuff to see with some 4x4 tracks... I am not the sort of person who is going to just jump in his car on the weekend and go blow fuel on climbing tracks just for the hell of doing something for fun. Unless I am going 'somewhere' I don't see the point to wearing the car out. I like tracks with a purpose, maybe a lookout at the end or something rather, not just some banged up road in the forest where you cant see anything but trees and the whole purpose of it is just for 4x4 fun... I won't be doing that. Maybe if there was a fishing hole or camping spot somewhere through that difficult track... I would do it (as I am trying to get somewhere), but just for the hell of running the car through holes, mud and whatever else when there is a smooth dirt road right next to it going to the same place... well, I would take the smooth dirt road right next to it.

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Changing the defender to auto is possibly, but can be pricey, this would depend on which model as well.

2.2 and 2.4 Pumas have the Ford transit engine in them, so if someone can't work on them then well I would be super surprised. It seems the major issues are driveline related in the Puma, which are generally sorted if you are buying something circa 8 years old, and it's more wear and tear.

If you are going all the way back to a late model TD5 defender, then there are only a few things that stop forward momentum engine wise, and are easy to carry around (CPS being one of them). A well maintained engine is pretty reliable, the very early models had head issues, but I got 345k KMs out of mine before an engine swap, and I haven't whipped the head off to really see what is wrong yet.

Both can be easily remapped to get 150-170bhp and 350nm of torque for the TD5 and a little over 400 in the Puma. That's with no mechanical alterations, intercooler upgrades and the like will increase this and give better reliability.

Defenders only came in manual. There are a few aftermarket conversions but those rarely come up for sale.

Frankly the CRD engine in the Wrangler is superior to the Puma engine in spades. More NM, smoother. I've heard, antidotally, it is reliable. The Puma engine in a D90 is spritely. In a D110 is more than adequate (when loaded for a long trip) and in a D130 (fully loaded) it is underpowered. The fridge like shape of the defender is its greatest limitation on the hwy iro fuel consumption. A tuned defender will only give you NM of a stock Wrangler CRD. As for the Cummins conversion, the kit is the ISF2.8 and it puts out the same NM as the Puma defender (360nm). More than adequate in the JK which it is pitched at. DeBruiser in the US converted a 4 door.

As for outback touring. The reality is, if you drive anything more modern than an 80 series toyo you will struggle to find parts on the shelf in small towns. Larger towns and towns with mining in the district will have a current 70 series on the shelf. Just because there is a dealership in the town doesn't mean they carry parts on the shelf. I live near Wollongong and the local Ford dealership had to order in parts that are consumables. As for diagnosis of problems in a LR. If you get a pre 1999, any mechanic with a rubber mallet and set of spanners will get you going again. 1999 to 2007 the TD5 is unique to LR and there is no parts support in the bush. The ECU is simple and can be ready with any basic diagnostic tool. The engine is bullet proof if you maintain it and watch overheating. The post 2007 Puma engine is a ford transit engine (also found in the Ford Ranger 2.2) and by and large is a robust engine. The ECU coding is a tweaked J1939 protocol and can be read with any commercial grade diagnostic machine. There are plenty of aftermarket diagnostic tools for the ECU for road side fault finding. I've done my share of remote touring and each time the truck gave me trouble it was forewarned well in advance and i ignored the warning signs. That's the same for any vehicle.

If your comments are reflective of the type of 4wding, i'm not sure why you are fixated on 4wd capability. Driving a forest trail to a camp or fishing spot is within the capability of any modern 4wd. Its only when you step up to rock crawling, mud plugging or similar technical driving that the shortcomings of a stock 4wd bubble to the surface. Each wheel base has its nemesis, you can put 2 different 4wd's on a track and each will struggle at different times. Wheel placement, wheel base, chassis clearance, type of tyres. There are a multitude of factors that differentiate between progress or not.

Personally, i think you will tire of the space limitations of a Wrangler for long distance touring. It's a RPITA to unpack the back each day to get to stuff that is jammed. I had a 110 and toured in that, now have a 130. IMHumbleO 130 is superior to the 110 in spades both for weekend warrior technical 4wding and for touring. The longer wheel base allows the truck to ride the wombat holes made by the shorter wheel based vehicles and on country roads the long wheel base soaks up the corrugations/washouts while maintaining a level of civility in its handling. The storage in the back is set up with everything has its place and everything in its place. I don't need to unpack half the truck to get to stuff.

i answered earlier the Q about fuel. If you carry 200 ltr of fuel all the time you will break stuff and use more fuel in the process. Carry as much as required for the situation and for the few times you need 200 ltr, the cheapest option is jerry cans. When my truck was fully loaded at the beginning of my recent trip it was a pig to drive. As i used up fuel, water and food it handled better and fuel consumption reduced.

I get the impression that you are faintly testing the waters for someone to talk you out of the Wrangler. Follow your heart. That's what is going to give you the Big Smile on your dial as you putter down the forest trail to that splendid camp spot that only you know about. That same spot that has fish the size of whales that taste as sweet as honey. If you find its shortcomings to your needs, you sell it and buy something more fitting. Do you still drive your first car? I don't and have owned too many to count in the journey to a content heart.

No factory auto on a Deefer and no TC/ABS on a 130, hence it's nice to have a locker/s.

Re reliability, one of the best LR dealers in the country is based in Alice Springs.
When I first went up there nearly twenty years ago I was amazed at how many Defenders and Discos were running around. At the time I didn't drive a Defender. It was an eye opener.
And having mum and step dad in Alice, I know how many late model vehicles are trucked back to Adelaide of all makes as they can't be fixed there. Trucks are going back full each week.
At least with a Landy it gets repaired there.
BTW my step dad was a long term Land Cruiser driver but they switched to a Defender in about '97.
Until last year's they've had Land Rover's since, traveled all over the top end, central Australia and the northwest and never been stuck by a break down. Some silly little things, and their Disco was dead reliable, until I took it over....[emoji848] Bloody thing stuck me up in the Flinders last year, but it was going the next day thanks to Chris in Hawker.
Ask a couple of the blokes on here who work on Land Cruisers how long they've had to wait for parts on occasion to be flown or worse, shipped from Japan.
They are all as bad as each other now, no one manufacturer keeps an extensive range of spares.

I came from Jeeps, grew up with them and every drive in a Deefer is an adventure, they grown on you.
Like warts [emoji23]

I still miss mine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ozscott

Am I right in saying that the 130 misses out on TCS? If so can understand it not making it given the axle twisters and no ability here for some momentum. But with lockers the 130 in those conditions would own that climb compared to d4/4. Cheers.

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AFAIK TC only came in the MY15/16 D130. Not even a tick a box option prior to that.