EV general discussion

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NavyDiver

t

Some one always pays John. I can get power for free from a few places - I know someone is paying!

Why do you think you through away in 10 years? Several of our oldest Landrovers have a nifty new life with battery power now sir[biggrin]

Fully appreciate cost at present are high John. That the second hand market will get a heap of 3ish year old still under warranty EVs due to ex lease cars via the FBT rulz change will bring prices for the masses soon mate. Let them eat Roo, venison, rabbits, pippies, crayfish mate or warrigal greens for free. Cakes are high sugar[bigrolf]

---

Unfortunately I can't see prices of new EV's becoming affordable any time soon - second hand units will be cheaper but who's going to buy them out of warranty given the replacement battery cost when needed - not me that's for sure.

Lithium is still going up and forecasts show this will continue until mid decade then another year or two lag in production before we start to see the costs of battery packs coming down and a year or 2 after that before they fall below current levels so there's only one way new EV pricing is going for the next 5 to 6 years and with everything else going up as fast as it is and families starting to feel the pinch from rising interest rates - I can't see EV's being taken up by any masses - they will continue to be for those well off people that want to feel good about themselves. Sales will continue to grow yes, but mass take up isn't happening any time soon.

And all of that is BEFORE anyone works out how to charge them all - I'll flogged that dead horse enough, I'll just sit back and wait until the world catches up and figures this out as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PhilipA

[bigwhistle]

mate you keep on saying this but it is just not true.
What is holding up the economy right now?
It is tax revenue from oil, gas,coal, and iron ore royalties and taxation revenue.
Literally hundreds of billions of dollars a year and never been higher than now.
This is the only thing that enables the various State and Federal Governments to waste untold billions on renewable and EV subsidies.
Regards PhilipA

---

Bit confused where you find billions on renewable and Ev subsidies [biggrin] Significantly more taxpayer funds in Utes and oil than those Philip. not historical billions+++ just current [bigrolf]


"Additional $250m pledge for Australia’s two remaining oil refineries" i should be quiet perhaps as " new report from investment bank Morgan Stanley suggests shareholders in Australian fuel giant Ampol, one of the two recipients of the bailout, could also reap the benefits of corporate welfare — potentially receiving as much as $900 million in cash payouts over the next few years."[bighmmm][bighmmm][bighmmm]


"Chevron has previously been in the ATO’s crosshairs over its tax arrangements, many gas companies also have very large deductions available due to the gigantic amounts of money they have poured into developing new fields in Australia."

"Alan Kohler: Australia is placing its recovery hopes on the trays of utes — and it’s idiotic" Link to that funny one! "The biggest item in the federal budget in May was the $18.1 billion in business tax write-offs for capital expenditure" Mr Kohler touches on EVs in that one [bigrolf]

History is even kinder to Huge Multinationals
Try April 2013 "Holden takes $2.1bn toll on taxpayers" "Price we pay: Holden’s government funding equates to about $2200 for each locally made vehicle rolling off the company’s production line since 2001."

US states "U.S. direct subsidies to the fossil fuel industry are estimated at roughly $20.5 billion per year, including $14.7 billion from federal subsidies and $5.8 billion from state subsidies. When externalities such as health, environmental, and climate factors are included, it is estimated the United States subsidizes fossil fuels to the tune of $649 billion per year. Eliminating fossil fuel subsidies would save taxpayer dollars while simultaneously reducing greenhouse gas emissions." Link Might be overstatement as it tries to include health costs from the smelly stuff our non EV Landrovers make [biggrin] It is both carcinogenic and loads of C02 of course. Had to put it that was as several subsidized very cool EV Landies are here who travel with out emissions perhaps.

The subsidies come even from me as I filled up my Disco before it left to terrorize Sydney last night. Traffic report was not kind to several sleepy vic on their ongoing NSW raid[biggrin]

Fully agree one US type car which is also made in China, Has got a lot of US $$$. As does his space ship and flame throwers perhaps. Just kidding on the flame throwers.[thumbsupbig]

https://youtu.be/GbH3_feTpAw

EDIT - Appreciate Vic is likely to via rebooted SEC for wind and solar not Nuclear sadly yet, likely to be in the government power game again. Not at all sure that's a good idea myself!

Edit 2- the irony of "many gas companies also have very large deductions available due to the gigantic amounts of money they have poured into developing new fields in Australia" could be in GRUMPY sods or current affairs of course. Our gas bill is up 40% and going higher!!!

What our taxes get for taxpayers is some times a PITA [biggrin]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Homestar

Unfortunately I can't see prices of new EV's becoming affordable any time soon - second hand units will be cheaper but who's going to buy them out of warranty given the replacement battery cost when needed - not me that's for sure.

Lithium is still going up and forecasts show this will continue until mid decade then another year or two lag in production before we start to see the costs of battery packs coming down and a year or 2 after that before they fall below current levels so there's only one way new EV pricing is going for the next 5 to 6 years and with everything else going up as fast as it is and families starting to feel the pinch from rising interest rates - I can't see EV's being taken up by any masses - they will continue to be for those well off people that want to feel good about themselves. Sales will continue to grow yes, but mass take up isn't happening any time soon.

And all of that is BEFORE anyone works out how to charge them all - I'll flogged that dead horse enough, I'll just sit back and wait until the world catches up and figures this out as well.

---

Your right it will take time to see price parity. Lithium and graphite are in my investment spotlight - mostly LOTS of Graphite due to WA Hydrogen [biggrin]

Charging is going to be the main reason I want hydrogen as did that Bus company I posted. Prices at the upper end on the other hand are very interesting MUSK mobile mod Y is 120ish I hear. More change from that than a middle upper level ICE BMW. Merc.....

I guess I can be a guinea pig in 8 years trying to see if I can swap to solid state batteries or even better options which may be here then if we still have the two feel good cars here.

Inflation is biting everyone hard. Not a thing to celebrate at all.

BIG NEW. Telsa app just told me I might be able to pay to charge my silly MG! It is even asking me for my credit card. I'll update next long drive I take via Colac IF and I mean IF it works. Just checked. Knox PVT hospital would allow me to pay $0.22 per kWh. I cannot see any other in Vic at all. NSW looks barren as well which seems odd as I think it was them that kick the can on Tesla.

Off to KNOX for fun[thumbsupbig]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NavyDiver

...... many gas companies also have very large deductions available due to the gigantic amounts of money they have poured into developing new fields in Australia."

.....

---

Are you suggesting that the companies should not be able to claim depreciation on expenditure to explore for and develop something that produces profits? Perhaps worth bearing in mind that a large proportion of this expenditure was committed, if not actually spent, years ago - as one example, I am aware of one gas field, now in the planning stages, was discovered over forty years ago. The capital used for development is in many cases borrowed. Of course you can argue that since the price of gas has increased, this should cover the development cost.

But this ignores the fact that if the contract with the government did not allow for extra profit if the price goes up, the developer would expect a subsidy (or equivalent) if the price went down; which is at present a real risk if Australia were to cease production of gas, or the world turns away from it during the life of the field (consider that Bass Strait gas fields have lasted around fifty years and are still producing). If the deal offered to explorers did not include the possible upside as well as the risks, the exploration and development simply would not have happened.

(The price of domestic gas is a different issue - WA was able to make sure this was not a problem, the other states and the Commonwealth have something to answer for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NavyDiver

The highest tax payer are? Hint not the poor people John[biggrin] Note of course old cars can be both economical and expensive My current D3 ice engine and prior D3 gear box fails go a little way to demonstrate that to myself at least.

Subsidies are interesting. Billions or trillions of Subsidies in coal, gas, oil of course [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle] We all think think EVs should stand on their own unsubsidised feet which is why some of us are happy they will be cheaper due to NOT being subject to the extra taxes UTES are already largely exempt from [biggrin]

PS Extra taxes are almost always paid by poor for luxury cars? NOT.

The sin taxes are of course avoidable like your smart choice sir (alcohol, tobacco...)

Hydrogen-powered Toyota HiLux prototypes to be built in the UK

FCEV Hilux in the news again Why in the UK? Governments and state government compete to attract jobs. Trillions of $$$ is waiting for a large scale long term investment (stated by Brookfield renewable trust) That is a Billionaires play ground or really your super funds money looking for a safe long term investment that will not be a stranded asset in medium/longer term which is the case with oil, gas and coal.

Disco driving into Sydney as I type $420 in fuel cost so far in the tank. Some tired young types promised to bring my car back for fishing and diving needed next week for Xmas stash- Crayfish, sea urchin, sea cucumbers , snapper, king fish and green lip abalone on my to get xmas list- My EV is not there yet :)

---

Are you taking orders?[biggrin] No, not the Basil Fawlty ones.



FWIW I'll even let you plug into the Power & you can't say fairer than that, guvnor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JDNSW

Are you suggesting that the companies should not be able to claim depreciation on expenditure to explore for and develop something that produces profits? Perhaps worth bearing in mind that a large proportion of this expenditure was committed, if not actually spent, years ago - as one example, I am aware of one gas field, now in the planning stages, was discovered over forty years ago. The capital used for development is in many cases borrowed. Of course you can argue that since the price of gas has increased, this should cover the development cost.

But this ignores the fact that if the contract with the government did not allow for extra profit if the price goes up, the developer would expect a subsidy (or equivalent) if the price went down; which is at present a real risk if Australia were to cease production of gas, or the world turns away from it during the life of the field (consider that Bass Strait gas fields have lasted around fifty years and are still producing). If the deal offered to explorers did not include the possible upside as well as the risks, the exploration and development simply would not have happened.

(The price of domestic gas is a different issue - WA was able to make sure this was not a problem, the other states and the Commonwealth have something to answer for.

---

Fully agree WA took a good possition on Gas extracted from WA for WA. Not suggesting other states or federal types were as smart nor suggesting taxpayers subsidies for anyone taken with out providing first use of our resources for you[bigwhistle]

Exploration for oil and gas hand outs are rather generous right now if you look "Minister for Resources and Water Keith Pitt has announced the Coalition Government has entered three grant agreements worth a combined $19.4 million to support gas exploration in the Northern Territory’s Beetaloo Sub-Basin."

My point is not about normal tax deductions- Did not suggest that at all[thumbsupbig] Phillip tossed the comment in I responded to Proof is $$$$$$ not odd claims
Kn
EDIT Mr Musk is chuckling at me. NO fast charging for non Telsa EV Knox charging is paid parking and pay for a tesla slow charger you can have for free at a near by shopping center[bigrolf]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 4bee

Are you taking orders?[biggrin] No, not the Basil Fawlty ones.

---

Sir Yes Sir

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQAXX08A-s

An interesting article by a Wellington bus driver on EV buses.
Electric Buses – Watts Up With That?

Regards PhilipA

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NavyDiver

........
Exploration for oil and gas hand outs are rather generous right now if you look "Minister for Resources and Water Keith Pitt has announced the Coalition Government has entered three grant agreements worth a combined $19.4 million to support gas exploration in the Northern Territory’s Beetaloo Sub-Basin."
.....

---

The NT government thinks that this is necessary to get anyone to explore there. Not being up to date with the geology in the area, I can't really offer an opinion, although from what I know, I certainly would not spend any of my money exploring there.

But the NT government is probably not looking at the probability of exploration success (although I have no doubt someone has shown them some very optimistic possibilities), but is really more interested in economic activity, treating it the same as a lot of the things they subsidise.

Of course, I would not even suggest that the idea came from some of their pushy mates.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PhilipA

An interesting article by a Wellington bus driver on EV buses.
Electric Buses – Watts Up With That?

Regards PhilipA

---

He is very different to me Phillip He states
"Having to recharge the bus takes time out of my rest break – I lose at least 10 minutes that I would otherwise spend relaxing with a cuppa and stretching my legs on a fine day."

I ran a good ten km several times while charging, got a few nice meals, Drinks and read a book once or twice [biggrin]

His range anxiety is a issue for a psychologist[bigwhistle]I cannot fit a game of golf in at RACV Torquay as its a fast charger Alas or good? I am a shocking golfer [bigrolf][bigrolf]