EV general discussion

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Originally Posted by DiscoDB

Tombie - just because the technology (or warranties) won’t work for you, doesn’t mean it can’t work for the millions of cars on our roads that don’t need the range. I suspect there are plenty of top selling ICE’s that would not be practical for you as well, or last long if used like you need. But for most people their car usage is nothing like yours or most on this forum.

My wife’s car never does more than 60km in a single day and there would be millions like this. All perfect candidates for an EV that can be used for 15+ years in the 20-80% battery capacity range and never be impacted by battery degradation because the full 100% range is never needed or used. The more important number that most cars need in cities is the 20% capacity range. An EV with a 250-300km range is all that most city runabouts need.

Eventually EV batteries will either just be another consumable - like tyres - you get the best performance when new and replace when worn, or we will get solid state batteries that see minimal battery degradation with double the energy intensity and range available today.

The future for EV’s is looking very promising and we are within a decade of seeing some big changes. The mass produced EV’s of today are starting the same technological shift that the horseless carriages made over 100 years ago.

But right now, an EV for the wife, and a 5.0V8 D4 or V8SC RRS for me would be the best of both worlds (the D3 is safe for now - although it may become a candidate for a twin motor EV conversion one day when the TDV6 reaches the end of its expected life).

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I agree wholeheartedly with your “all they need” statement, it however misses the point in consumer vs supplier.

Even if I lived in a city, and my daily use was 20% of the vehicles quoted new range - if that asset then goes on to be only a portion of what I purchased - I would be very annoyed.

That’s not acceptable, you don’t sell a 100% and then reduce it to 70% and call it acceptable.

As for EVs being the solution - they aren’t - they’re a stop gap trend - and not a globally friendly one. I’m privileged to see some real world mining / environmental data and the numbers just don’t stack up (ignoring human rights abuse, that’s another whole kettle of fish)

Just watched a YouTube vid where they drove 7 EVs in convoy along major roads. They all started at 100% and drove until the car stopped.

The best mile/kwh was a Tesla Y? which got 3.9 miles/kwh and 271 miles range.

What was interesting was that they all only around 80% of their advertised range - not such a big deal but maybe manufacturers need to put some standard paramenters around their claims - such as temp at 25c, no wind and maybe a speed range so comparisons can be made.

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Originally Posted by 101RRS

Just watched a YouTube vid where they drove 7 EVs in convoy along major roads. They all started at 100% and drove until the car stopped.

The best mile/kwh was a Tesla Y? which got 3.9 miles/kwh and 271 miles range.

What was interesting was that they all only around 80% of their advertised range - not such a big deal but maybe manufacturers need to put some standard paramenters around their claims - such as temp at 25c, no wind and maybe a speed range so comparisons can be made.

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Yes there is a standard - all done under controlled conditions for exactly the reasons you note.

The most commonly stated values used are the WLTP - Worldwide Harmonised Light Vehicle Test Program which is mandated in Europe.

Real world testing tend to show the WLTP values are about 10-20% too high.

Similar to what is often seen with fuel consumption comparisons. My D3 also gets about 10-20% less range than the official stated fuel consumption.

The Electric Vehicle Database publishes both WLTP values and expected Real ranges based on different operating environments for all EV’s available in Europe.

Compare electric vehicles - EV Database

And as Tombie will point out - these values are based on 100%-0% range when the battery is new. So factor in the expected degradation over the intended ownership period of the vehicle.

The optimised range would be to only use 80%-20% capacity (60% DoD) to ensure no loss of this optimised range over the first 10-15 years or 150,000-225,000kms. Or just use approximately half the WLTP value to determine if the optimised range is suitable for regular use.

And if your typical daily usage can be managed with just a 20% DoD averaged around 50% (i.e. just use 60%-40%) then the battery should be expected to outlast the car.

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Originally Posted by Tombie

I agree wholeheartedly with your “all they need” statement, it however misses the point in consumer vs supplier.

Even if I lived in a city, and my daily use was 20% of the vehicles quoted new range - if that asset then goes on to be only a portion of what I purchased - I would be very annoyed.

That’s not acceptable, you don’t sell a 100% and then reduce it to 70% and call it acceptable.

As for EVs being the solution - they aren’t - they’re a stop gap trend - and not a globally friendly one. I’m privileged to see some real world mining / environmental data and the numbers just don’t stack up (ignoring human rights abuse, that’s another whole kettle of fish)

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All about education and awareness. You do your own research and decide what is best for you.

Fortunately no one is forcing you to buy an EV - but doesn’t mean others shouldn’t if that is what they want and it suits their needs. And I don’t see any EV manufacturers hiding the fact that batteries will degrade over the life of the car.

The mining industry in particular should really benefit from the EV transition. Not so good for the oil industry.

If this still makes you furious - start planning what your end of the Fossil Fuel Age car will be. For me I feel it has to be a petrol V8 to pay true homage to the end of what has been an exciting era in motoring history.

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Originally Posted by DiscoDB

All about education and awareness. You do your own research and decide what is best for you.

Fortunately no one is forcing you to buy an EV - but doesn’t mean others shouldn’t if that is what they want and it suits their needs. And I don’t see any EV manufacturers hiding the fact that batteries will degrade over the life of the car.

The mining industry in particular should really benefit from the EV transition. Not so good for the oil industry.

If this still makes you furious - start planning what your end of the Fossil Fuel Age car will be. For me I feel it has to be a petrol V8 to pay true homage to the end of what has been an exciting era in motoring history.

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A V12 perhaps? DB11 v12[bigwhistle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nf4uTAA5_I

Back to EVs for a minute. (Drove the Disco on the weekend [biggrin]) Dealer re longer range replacement EV I am getting said a fleet buyer was taking over 100 here! We have Air tickets booked pre covid trip delayed is now taking family for a holiday. EV car hire listed but not one available! (Brisbane Airport)


I have booked a cheap manual ICE car. My better half cannot drive a manual so might be grumpy! Honestly it is hard to book any hire car !

Something interesting learned when trying to book the EV hire. You can return a EV with any state of charge remaining and pay nothing more. My cheap ICE hire has to returned at the same fuel level or I have to pay $4 per litre!!! [bigwhistle]

I knew EVs are 1/5 the cost to run as a ICE. The FREE charging for Hired EV via SIXT Rent a Car | Truck Hire, Van and Car Rental which seem to be a NRMA company and also offered 25% off for me (RACV member)

The free ev hire car charging they offered was via Chargefox ev charging network.

Alas I have to pay for fuel again[bigrolf]

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Originally Posted by DiscoDB

All about education and awareness. You do your own research and decide what is best for you.

Fortunately no one is forcing you to buy an EV - but doesn’t mean others shouldn’t if that is what they want and it suits their needs. And I don’t see any EV manufacturers hiding the fact that batteries will degrade over the life of the car.

The mining industry in particular should really benefit from the EV transition. Not so good for the oil industry.

If this still makes you furious - start planning what your end of the Fossil Fuel Age car will be. For me I feel it has to be a petrol V8 to pay true homage to the end of what has been an exciting era in motoring history.

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I've got mine planned.. an Ineos Grenadier. [bigsmile]

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Originally Posted by scarry

But there are not many Evs around compared to other types,and most are only a couple of years old.

The average age of vehicles in many countries is well over 10 yrs,some well over 15,so it will be interesting to see what happens when they get to that sort of age and older.

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Yes - Ev's are really quite new and quite scarce on Australias roads. Australia for various reasons is a looooong way behind some other countries on EV adoption so they are still scarce here.

Do remember though that in many other countries they do have a fair number of them, and some are approaching the 10 years (I know it's not hugely old) but some of them do have massive k's on them. Because of the minimal fuel costs there are a number what have seen serious commercial use and have big k's. Apparently there is a model S in Byron surrounds with 600k on it and only about 10% battery degradation.

People on this forum tend to want to compare EV's to 4x4 which tend to be quite long lived. But they are more "normal" car replacements - and as I've mentioned before these cars don't tend to live to very old ages. I think that's more where EV's will go.. the battery will remain reasonable and useful for the life of the car. Then .. like normal cars they will have some fender bender and won't be worth repairing. It's possible that the recycling value of the batteries may play into the end of life for these vehicles more than we see now for ICE vehicles.

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Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

I've got mine planned.. an Ineos Grenadier. [bigsmile]

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Nice one - also gives a nod to the original Defender.

But doesn’t scream I want to enjoy every last drop of fuel while I can.

Going off topic for a moment - if you recall the RAM 1500 TRX advert which shows the neighbour helping unload the back of the Ute and asks - “so you had to get a Hemi V8” - followed by the owner showing off the performance of the Ram on gravel roads and sand dunes. The ad was all shot off road and never exceeded 80kph.

The ad has been pulled by the Advertising Board after the president of an Australian 4x4 club lodged a “very lengthy complaint” that the ad depicted hoon driving, risky behaviour, and environmental damage.

OMG!

Looking at some data sets, I’d say urban EV battery life will be significantly better than fringe or long range used units.

A lot of this is driven by not requiring “Supercharging” which significantly impacts battery longevity.

So if you just use 20% of your battery and slowly restore it, yes it may well last longer and retain capacity.