EV general discussion

Another one.
Volkswagen: “Strong Customer Reluctance” in the Electric Vehicle Sector

6 days ago
Eric Worrall
163 Comments

Essay by Eric Worrall
h/t CampsieFellow, Geoff Buys Cars; Volkswagen is scaling back electric vehicle production, laying off contractors, but internal combustion vehicle production remains unchanged.

Volkswagen scales back EV production

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ByAutomotive Daily
June 28, 2023
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Among the models affected are the ID 4 SUV and early production of the ID 7 saloon. Details of the shortening of shifts were provided by Manfred Wulff, head of the works council for the Emden plant, in response to an inquiry from the German Press Agency and an earlier article published by the North West newspaper.
While the production of combustion-engine models, including the Volkswagen Passat, continues unchanged, the factory holidays for electric vehicle line workers have been extended by one week.
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Wulff indicates demand for electric vehicles is up to 30% below originally planned production figures.
“We are experiencing strong customer reluctance in the electric vehicle sector,” he told the North West newspaper.
Wulff said production of the ID 7 saloon had originally been planned to start in July but has now been delayed to “later this year”.
In a statement, a spokesperson for the Volkswagen Emden plant said: “We are confident that the plant’s utilisation will increase again with the launch of the ID 7 at the end of the year.

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Regards PhilipA

This person definately will not be buying an EV and here is why.
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/othe...51319d0&ei=184

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Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

Most EV's are tiny? Where do you get that from?

The biggest selling EV's in Australia last month were the Tesla Model Y and the BYD ATTO 3. The BYD Atto 3 is a big car inside. Very spacious. So is the Model Y. Fun fact for you, and current Landrover defender 110 has a cargo capacity of 2271l with the seats down. A Tesla Model Y with the seats down is 2041. If you make cars with no engine etc it's amazing how much space they have.

And yes, an there aren't many second hand EV's because in terms of numbers the majority of them on Australian roads would be less than 2 years old. Remember last june 1% EV's and this june nearly 9%. It's going to take a many years until there is a good supply of them.

In the meantime enjoy a photo of my "tiny" MY, which was Australias second most sold car last month, with a full size gravel bike in with both wheels on and room to spare.

Attachment 186157

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Lucky a gravel bike is light ;) (nice btw)

2400kg gvm and 2000kg empty means a 5 seater can’t really carry 5 adults and gear…Towing is awful too [emoji56][emoji23]

The key thing EVs don’t have is flexibility. Sure it’ll fit a high rise car park. And sure a second car could be smaller or an EV..

The catch is they aren’t flexible- our full size 2nd car does sub 8l/100km and goes 800km on a fill with HVAC on the entire time. It can tow 3500kg, it can go anywhere to get to MTB tracks hundreds of kilometres from here and make it home. Or it can go shopping.

Friends of mine cant use one because power leads hanging onto the road aren’t allowed. Older apartment complexes often don’t have the power feed to support multiple EVs. And there’s ****loads of those complexes out there.

I have a dinner this Thursday. It’s 275km each way and no charger close enough to zap up for the return. There is one down there however it’s 20min from where we are dining and then heading home straight after - I’m not waiting another 45min to come home.

Another example - favourite MTB trails - 190km away, lots of hilly terrain. A 500+km rated Tesla can’t do it (I know this, friend tried in his). As we often then head back via friends in another town this makes an EV less favourable as we can’t make the diversion else it’s another hour to charge (if it’s empty upon arrival).

My times valuable. Apparently EV owners isn’t. Because convenience far outweighs me sitting around scratching my arse whilst waiting for charge. I suppose I could sit arrogantly enjoying my air quality dreams which I can conveniently forget has shifted other larger issues into someone else’s backyard.

I’m not against the concept of clean air, or EVs.
I’m anti-bull****. And the model Y is a 400km (real using AC/Heating and driven not nursed) car with a sub std warranty (80/4yr on all but motor/battery) a reputation for poor build quality and materials (all Teslas) and limited “fuel” stations.

I guess with all thing EV / alt Power being subsidised at the moment it’s not surprising the green washing is taking hold.

Greener is not having less cars, that’s moot as the greener answer is buy less cars, less often - you know, back when people serviced and kept cars for a lot longer…

Oh yes, that got marketed out by the same people who will try sell you a new one every 5 years or less.

When they don’t need to tear up more planet to make them. They’ll be green. They sure aren’t now.

Have always been curious to understand why EV’s take a big range hit when towing. They seem to be as inefficient when towing as a petrol engine.

Given the amount of low down torque an electric motor can produce, I would expect them to be more energy efficient when towing - i.e. perform more like a diesel than a petrol engine.

Makes you wonder if they suffer not having a gearbox to keep the motor at its most efficient operating point.

Electric motor efficiency is pretty much independent of the motor speed, so not that.

The main reason is that EVs almost all depend for their range on having very low aerodynamic drag. And virtually no trailers have low aerodynamic drag, and in any case, the mere presence of the trailer close behind the car will upset the airflow round the car and increase the drag of the car itself, before even counting the drag from the trailer. To avoid this the trailer would need to have a cross section that fits within the dead zone of airflow behind the car - I cannot think of any normal trailer that this could apply to.

Above about 60kph aerodynamic drag accounts for most of the energy use needed to keep a vehicle moving, and it increases as the square of the speed. (the actual speed at which it becomes dominant depends on how much other drag there is, but on EVs this is also very low compared to ICEs)

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Originally Posted by Homestar

Out of the 71% that live in Cities, how many earn above the average wage? How many of those can afford an EV? Of those how many want an EV? I think you’ll find it’s the numbers get smaller every time you work through that equation.

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Half of them earn above the average wage. I promise. [bigwhistle]

Yes cars are expensive - and not everyone can afford one. None the less, Australians buy like 1,000,000 cars a year typically. I'm pretty sure I've never implied or said that 5 million Australians should go out and buy an EV each year. All I've ever said was that if you really care about the environment don't drive. If you still consider you need and want to drive anyway - drive what you have. Lastly, if you need a new car consider an EV.

But if what I'm seeing in here is any guide, actually understanding them is still a really big barrier.

Last point, looking at the 1 million figure above, consider that we have on the road about 15 million cars in Australia. It's going to take a very long time for EV's to become a measurable portion of that 15 million. Every time an ICE car is sold, it's emissions are baked in for 10 or 15 years. That's why it's good news that the EV slice of the new car market is expanding probably more quickly than most expected.

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

Electric motor efficiency is pretty much independent of the motor speed, so not that.

The main reason is that EVs almost all depend for their range on having very low aerodynamic drag. And virtually no trailers have low aerodynamic drag, and in any case, the mere presence of the trailer close behind the car will upset the airflow round the car and increase the drag of the car itself, before even counting the drag from the trailer. To avoid this the trailer would need to have a cross section that fits within the dead zone of airflow behind the car - I cannot think of any normal trailer that this could apply to.

Above about 60kph aerodynamic drag accounts for most of the energy use needed to keep a vehicle moving, and it increases as the square of the speed. (the actual speed at which it becomes dominant depends on how much other drag there is, but on EVs this is also very low compared to ICEs)

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To put some perspective about this. Good EV's are a drag coefficient of .23. Some even .22. This is unprecedented. Any ICE car with a .2 in front is considered excellent. What they have done to get these numbers out of EV's is very very impressive. Over and under the car. Aero everywhere. It's also why they all look somewhat the same in shape, and is why adapted ICE platforms tend to suffer under the car. I think I read somewhere that a Defender is .65 or something like that for context.

The towed vehicle will not affect the aero of the towing car very much at all (unless it changes the angle of attack) but whatever you're towing is going to be draggy as hell. It will be drag over, under everywhere. Of course there is a weight effect too which won't be helping.

Perhaps the question shouldn't be why are EV's so greatly affected - but why ICE cars are not affected as badly.

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Originally Posted by Tombie

Lucky a gravel bike is light ;) (nice btw)

2400kg gvm and 2000kg empty means a 5 seater can’t really carry 5 adults and gear…Towing is awful too [emoji56][emoji23]

The key thing EVs don’t have is flexibility. Sure it’ll fit a high rise car park. And sure a second car could be smaller or an EV..

The catch is they aren’t flexible- our full size 2nd car does sub 8l/100km and goes 800km on a fill with HVAC on the entire time. It can tow 3500kg, it can go anywhere to get to MTB tracks hundreds of kilometres from here and make it home. Or it can go shopping.

Friends of mine cant use one because power leads hanging onto the road aren’t allowed. Older apartment complexes often don’t have the power feed to support multiple EVs. And there’s ****loads of those complexes out there.

I have a dinner this Thursday. It’s 275km each way and no charger close enough to zap up for the return. There is one down there however it’s 20min from where we are dining and then heading home straight after - I’m not waiting another 45min to come home.

Another example - favourite MTB trails - 190km away, lots of hilly terrain. A 500+km rated Tesla can’t do it (I know this, friend tried in his). As we often then head back via friends in another town this makes an EV less favourable as we can’t make the diversion else it’s another hour to charge (if it’s empty upon arrival).

My times valuable. Apparently EV owners isn’t. Because convenience far outweighs me sitting around scratching my arse whilst waiting for charge. I suppose I could sit arrogantly enjoying my air quality dreams which I can conveniently forget has shifted other larger issues into someone else’s backyard.

I’m not against the concept of clean air, or EVs.
I’m anti-bull****. And the model Y is a 400km (real using AC/Heating and driven not nursed) car with a sub std warranty (80/4yr on all but motor/battery) a reputation for poor build quality and materials (all Teslas) and limited “fuel” stations.

I guess with all thing EV / alt Power being subsidised at the moment it’s not surprising the green washing is taking hold.

Greener is not having less cars, that’s moot as the greener answer is buy less cars, less often - you know, back when people serviced and kept cars for a lot longer…

Oh yes, that got marketed out by the same people who will try sell you a new one every 5 years or less.

When they don’t need to tear up more planet to make them. They’ll be green. They sure aren’t now.

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EV's more environmentally damaging than ICE is an opinion. Everyone has one. And wanting to sell me a new one in 5 years? Isn't that standard across the whole industry? And riding my arse for turning over cars quick ... the defender is 18 years old and the other car is 54. We only replaced the golf because the family had grown out of it, and it needed to have the gearbox removed every two years to replace the clutches..

And this is the reason why we have an ICE car and a EV. If we weren't a two car family the equation would be very different at this juncture. And I don't care if an EV won't work for you. But be empathetic. Don't assume that everyone has the same requirements as yourself.

But we are - so if I need to go a long way, tow something big or carry an awful lot I can drive the Defender. The chances of two drivers in this household needing that kind of capability at the same time.. it just doesn't happen. What I've got to weigh up is the defender costs at least $20 per hundred to the $3 for the EV.

As to the chargers, yes they were scarce but they are spreading quickly around SEQ. Trips that weren't possible 18 months ago are now lined with DC chargers. I do sometimes ride to a bike ride, or drive as race support. I look at Grafton to Inverell.. in 2022 I could not have done it in an EV. This year there are fast chargers in most of the towns. Could have easily been EVable. I support Grafton to Inverell too most years (bike races that start and finish in different places require a lot of help). Anyway it's about 400 k all up. I reckon I could nearly do it in one go, but worst case I just give it 15 minutes in Warwick at the QESH charger. It's even cheap too being roughly the same price as home.

PS - yes teslas were pretty slapped together in the early days, but mine is well built. It's as good as any new car I've bought and much better than some (especially the landrover). Most people with Chinese production are saying the same thing. Didn't see that coming.
PPS Drove out to the rail trail in BNE yesterday 135k out and back. Got home with over 70%. I can just put it on charge some time over the next few days when the sun is shining. Easy.

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As to the chargers, yes they were scarce but they are spreading quickly around SEQ. Trips that weren't possible 18 months ago are now lined with DC chargers. I do sometimes ride to a bike ride, or drive as race support. I look at Grafton to Inverell.. in 2022 I could not have done it in an EV. This year there are fast chargers in most of the towns. Could have easily been EVable. I support Grafton to Inverell too most years (bike races that start and finish in different places require a lot of help). Anyway it's about 400 k all up. I reckon I could nearly do it in one go, but worst case I just give it 15 minutes in Warwick at the QESH charger. It's even cheap too being roughly the same price as home.

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As long as you are the only one wanting to charge at each charger.!
Be happy being an early adopter as it will not last, just look at the VLOGS from EV owners in UK.

Regards PhilipA

An interesting video on the used EV market in the UK.
Do we have a MAJOR PROBLEM with EV depreciation? Case Studies. - YouTube

Coming to Australia in a couple of years.

Regards PhilipA