Power Generation. The Weekend Australian. "Inquirer" June 15/16.

One of the areas I used to work in overseas was in project finance - both oil and gas and renewables. For example, I worked on some of the developments on the North-West Shelf. I keep up with the literature too. One of the key issues with coal at the moment is that commercial financiers won't lend money on coal mines or coal-fired power stations because it's regarded as a "stranded asset" - that is, that within the operating life of the asset there will be no viable purchase price for the asset, in other words they'll be valueless. Which doesn't much appeal to financiers who are trying to get their money back. It's also pretty hard for coal assets to meet development standards, like the Equator principles. I understand that this is why the original Adani mine plans didn't go through - because no financier would touch it with a barge-pole, on both environmental grounds and financial (the numbers just didn't stack up).

So .... if this Australian article says that renewables are a fad and coal is the future then they're flying in the face of reality and global experience.

It's hard to work out where the Coalition are coming from in relation to coal and carbon pricing because even the big resources and energy companies, who you'd think would have some influence with them, are telling them that they need to price carbon - but they're not doing it. It's all very odd.

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Originally Posted by donh54

And,of course, those roads, rail lines and ports are never used to transport, or transship components and/or services for renewable generation, are they?

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Probably not - there are plenty of privately owned but State-subsidised road, rail line and ports around, including some in Australia.

That's why Adani can't get finance and the owner of Adani is financing $7b from his own pocket. The Adani coal will supply his own power stations in India.

BTW the UK just went a whole week without burning any coal at all.

Good to note that there's a green awareness on this thread.
I admit, after the election result - and yet more 'corruption by another word' coming to light now, after the election (google Frydenberg) I was wondering whether the 'only stupid people are breeding' (and voting) was our dumb new Post-Truth-Era world.
You give me hope.

As background: my daughter did her PHD in renewables - and all the complications that come from converting from point sources of energy generation from point-sourced of non-renewables to distributed renewable sources. It Ain't Simple! She was head-hunted by the NSW govt before she'd quite finished her PHD, crunches their numbers.
And was telling me about how some lobbyist at a conference was BS-ing her (not knowing who she was) about the recent near-collapse of the Victorian coal-fired stations on a hot day (3 power-stations - all coal - nearly 'fell over' on that day. On super-hot days - coal-fired is more likely to collapse, not less). He said, "Yeah - it's all the fault of the renewables - if they hadn't withdrawn on that day, there would have been no problem."
And she said, "They did not withdraw. They were at peak capacity (which is currently 2%, grid-wise, Victoria - I think she said). And getting 4X the usual spot-rate for those crucial few hours. A moment of profitability! - if they hadn't been present, then the system would have collapsed - it was that close. Don't BS me - I did the research and wrote the report." The A-hole fled. Probably then spun the same line to someone less informed and more gullible.

The dirty-coal/dirty-energy industry is fighting even dirtier.

Two things she mentioned. In our warming climate - more people are dying from heat-stress than are dying from all other natural causes combined; snake-bite, lightning-strike, shark-attack, etc... In NSW, last year it was 500 people (about 5X my guess). In context - road toll NSW last year was ~300. Category: 'premature deaths'.

Now to EVs:
She also mentioned: "If you're going to get an EV, make sure you get a 'smart charger'. One that turns on when the load system-wide is less, and the renewable generation is higher. The worst thing is when people come home at sundown, plug in the EV, then go in and turn on lights, electric stove, etc..." Smart chargers are (currently!) a grand or two more expensive.

Also context - the new 'superchargers' (350kw or whatever) use more power than a dozen homes - but do charge a car in the same sort of time as a leisurely cup of coffee.

We are at an adventurous time of change - it is a pity we've got citizens and corporates with a clearer view of the future than 'the Moonlight Feds'. Governments should lead, not be dragged kicking and screaming, held back by their lobbyists.

Just think what might-have-been if an enlightened government had gone to Dear Elon and said: "We've got this auto-industry closing down - how about we work together and we build your Tesla Y?" (Which I think might be my next car/wife's car - still at prototype stage).

Anyways... good to meet IQ on this forum. Perhaps my grandchildren won't inherit a burning planet after all.

Phideaux.

Good points. If this thread was in Current Affairs where political comment is allowed I could say a lot more.

There was a proposal to start a lithium battery factory in a closed car plant in Adelaide, but it may not happen now.

One point about EVs is, if the house has solar and batteries, and is wired to charge the batteries and run the house before drawing from the grid if necessary, then plugging in the EV actually adds to the battery capacity of the house. So, for example, if a house has 6kv of battery bank, and the EV has say a 6kv battery bank, then when the EV is plugged in the house has 12kv of batteries to draw from, so it should not need to draw from the grid at all, even at night.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phideaux

Good to note that there's a green awareness on this thread.
I admit, after the election result - and yet more 'corruption by another word' coming to light now, after the election (google Frydenberg) I was wondering whether the 'only stupid people are breeding' (and voting) was our dumb new Post-Truth-Era world.
You give me hope.

As background: my daughter did her PHD in renewables - and all the complications that come from converting from point sources of energy generation from point-sourced of non-renewables to distributed renewable sources. It Ain't Simple! She was head-hunted by the NSW govt before she'd quite finished her PHD, crunches their numbers.
And was telling me about how some lobbyist at a conference was BS-ing her (not knowing who she was) about the recent near-collapse of the Victorian coal-fired stations on a hot day (3 power-stations - all coal - nearly 'fell over' on that day. On super-hot days - coal-fired is more likely to collapse, not less). He said, "Yeah - it's all the fault of the renewables - if they hadn't withdrawn on that day, there would have been no problem."
And she said, "They did not withdraw. They were at peak capacity (which is currently 2%, grid-wise, Victoria - I think she said). And getting 4X the usual spot-rate for those crucial few hours. A moment of profitability! - if they hadn't been present, then the system would have collapsed - it was that close. Don't BS me - I did the research and wrote the report." The A-hole fled. Probably then spun the same line to someone less informed and more gullible.

The dirty-coal/dirty-energy industry is fighting even dirtier.

Two things she mentioned. In our warming climate - more people are dying from heat-stress than are dying from all other natural causes combined; snake-bite, lightning-strike, shark-attack, etc... In NSW, last year it was 500 people (about 5X my guess). In context - road toll NSW last year was ~300. Category: 'premature deaths'.

Now to EVs:
She also mentioned: "If you're going to get an EV, make sure you get a 'smart charger'. One that turns on when the load system-wide is less, and the renewable generation is higher. The worst thing is when people come home at sundown, plug in the EV, then go in and turn on lights, electric stove, etc..." Smart chargers are (currently!) a grand or two more expensive.

Also context - the new 'superchargers' (350kw or whatever) use more power than a dozen homes - but do charge a car in the same sort of time as a leisurely cup of coffee.

We are at an adventurous time of change - it is a pity we've got citizens and corporates with a clearer view of the future than 'the Moonlight Feds'. Governments should lead, not be dragged kicking and screaming, held back by their lobbyists.

Just think what might-have-been if an enlightened government had gone to Dear Elon and said: "We've got this auto-industry closing down - how about we work together and we build your Tesla Y?" (Which I think might be my next car/wife's car - still at prototype stage).

Anyways... good to meet IQ on this forum. Perhaps my grandchildren won't inherit a burning planet after all.

Phideaux.

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Regarding the heat stress point - a friend who is a paramedic told me of a conversation he had with a doctor who had recently attended a symposium in the USA on the shifting causes of fatalities in children and the elderly.
He claimed that one of the speakers claimed that the presence of air-conditioning in cars, homes, and businesses/schools seems to have resulted in a lowering of the human tolerance for major variations in temperature.
Food for thought.

I'm sure that is right! Although before airconditioning, there may have been many deaths that were attributed to other causes, but were actually heat stress. Most deaths from heat stress will be people who were at risk from other conditions, such as illness or age or both. And then there is the uncertainty as to whether a death apparently from heat stress is actually from that or from dehydration that could have been easily avoided.

Heat stress is one of the major threats from global warming.

Heat Waves and Climate Change: What the Science Tells Us about Extreme Heat Events (2018) | Union of Concerned Scientists

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Originally Posted by DiscoMick

Heat stress is one of the major threats from global warming.

Heat Waves and Climate Change: What the Science Tells Us about Extreme Heat Events (2018) | Union of Concerned Scientists

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So we should start weaning ourselves off air/con! (Probably help to slow the onset of global warming, too)

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Originally Posted by DiscoMick

Good points. If this thread was in Current Affairs where political comment is allowed I could say a lot more.

There was a proposal to start a lithium battery factory in a closed car plant in Adelaide, but it may not happen now.

One point about EVs is, if the house has solar and batteries, and is wired to charge the batteries and run the house before drawing from the grid if necessary, then plugging in the EV actually adds to the battery capacity of the house. So, for example, if a house has 6kv of battery bank, and the EV has say a 6kv battery bank, then when the EV is plugged in the house has 12kv of batteries to draw from, so it should not need to draw from the grid at all, even at night.

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Yes, they've been doing that in Japan for quite a while.