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Thread: Long discussion on Large scale Battery technology

  1. #11
    cuppabillytea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homestar View Post
    Not what we’re seeing in the real world at all - lithium is doing 70% discharge cycles on our units (we were doing 80% discharge but backed that off just to be on the cautious side) whereas the lead acid units we have are toast at 1500 cycles at 50% discharge so a huge difference from where we sit. Weight isn’t the key factor for our units - they weigh in at 1,450kg for the 45KWH packs so easy to move with our crane trucks, the same capacity lead acid units are over 3,000kg so still easy enough to move but we’d be limited to around a 10 metre reach at that weight. They are also twice the size for the same energy output and not much cheaper - they make no sense in our applications compared to lithium - that’s between 4.5KWH and 96KWH setups so not huge but not small either.

    We’ve been doing the math carefully as no one wants to spend big dollars on something that won’t make a return - we’ve found lead acid is going the way of the Do Do and lithium is where it’s at - right or wrong at the moment that’s where the money is.
    Have you considered Gelion Gav? It might be worth a little google search.
    Cheers, Billy.
    Keeping it simple is complicated.

  2. #12
    Homestar's Avatar
    Homestar is offline Super Moderator & CA manager Gold Subscriber
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuppabillytea View Post
    Have you considered Gelion Gav? It might be worth a little google search.
    Yep - we've looked at pretty much anything that is currently on the market, about to hit it or is in development. The Gelion cells have a very low energy density so you'd need around 3 times + as many batteries as what the top end LiFePO4 batteries can produce. The also have low discharge current limits so can't be hit hard like a lithium either. Not suitable in our application unfortunately. They would make very good fixed storage cells with controllable and known charge & discharge currents.

    Was watching one of our the other day online go from 14 amps to 870 amps on the DC bus instantly - that would make quite a few other offerings crap their dacks pretty much instantly.
    If you need to contact me please email homestarrunnerau@gmail.com - thanks - Gav.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Homestar View Post
    Yep - we've looked at pretty much anything that is currently on the market, about to hit it or is in development. The Gelion cells have a very low energy density so you'd need around 3 times + as many batteries as what the top end LiFePO4 batteries can produce. They aren't suitable for our application.
    True. That is a major down side, but the could be good for power grid sinks.
    Cheers, Billy.
    Keeping it simple is complicated.

  4. #14
    Homestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuppabillytea View Post
    True. That is a major down side, but the could be good for power grid sinks.
    Yep, they would make very good fixed setups.
    If you need to contact me please email homestarrunnerau@gmail.com - thanks - Gav.

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    Ah well,

    I guess I should not fuss about it Newer battery (or I should say energy storage) tech that will be a lot less destructive to the environment will step up to the plate soon enough I suppose? Just out of curiosity, do you have any test data on the "other" battery technology you have looked at? I love that kind of data!

    Cheers,
    -P

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    Playing with one of our new batteries today. Think I need to invest in some insulated spanners - was a bit gun shy connecting this up today given the amount of stored energy in front of me. A bit of heatshrink on the spanner kept things safe… Long discussion on Large scale Battery technology

    If you need to contact me please email homestarrunnerau@gmail.com - thanks - Gav.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homestar View Post
    I'll throw in my 2 cents based on what I'm currently doing for work - I'm involved with the development of hybrid power systems - batteries, solar and generators all working together to reduce fuel burn to a minimum, and packaging this so it's cost effective, reliable and sellable as a rental product - which is what our company is.

    We've trialed both lithium and lead acid batteries in various sized units - the lead acid units have been in service for around 3 years now and the units we built have deteriorated to a point where they are becoming uneconomic to hire out, so we've bought them all back in for a refit - which is the removal of the lead acid and fitment of lithium, new charger/inverter, etc. The lead acid only has a usable life span of around 1000 to 1500 cycles @ 50% discharge - our units are generally doing between 7 and 10 discharge/charge cycles a week so bang on with what we are seeing in the reduced capacity of the batteries after around 3 to 3 1/2 years of doing this. The replacement batteries have at least a 3,000 cycle capacity @ 80% discharge - we are running them at 70% discharge and the first of these have done around 1,000 cycles now and show zero deterioration whereas we could clearly see the deterioration of the lead acid units at 1000 cycles. A 3 year life span of a product is not viable - we need at least 5 to 7 years, preferably 10, but there isn't enough data to show how long things are going to last yet.

    This is just one aspect of a much bigger picture, but from where we sit and the equipment the industry is starting to demand, lithium is the only way to go. Biggest issues are supply and cost - we keep hearing these mythical statements about the price of batteries coming down, but it's going the other way at the moment and with global shortages, this is likely to keep driving prices up in the immediate future as well.

    FYI - we have 1,200 watt hour, 9.6KWH and 45KWH battery systems currently with 24KWH and 96KWH systems in development as well - each has a different market segment, footprint and weight so it's not a one size fits all with this - we've customer built some really neat units to fit a specific market and have had awesome take up and acceptance with those customers.

    When we were looking at some 200KWH systems the suppler said 'They have a fire suppression system in them' - to which I said they'd be better off with an alarm screaming 'Run away as fast as you can' - as this would be more effective on a 200KWH lithium battery pack than any fire suppression system could hope to be.
    I heard of a UK business using Hydrogen Gensets on site which had verymany interesting aspects. One was uptime on large Diesel gensets was not that flash with failures a bit more than desirable. A very cool engineer who survived Vic bush fires 10 years ago was informative on that topic as well as getting me to buy a Disco

    The second was they are here now. Just sadly not for me yet


    "LOXAM to hire out first hydrogen power generator, GEH2® by EODev_

    25th march 2021_

    LOXAM group, the equipment rental market leader, is continuing to pursue the environmental and energy transition of its equipment fleet towards low emissions by signing a partnership with the French specialist in hydrogen power solutions EODev (Energy Observer Developments). Always on the lookout for innovative powertrain alternatives to all-diesel or petrol, and with its committed environmental approach, LOXAM becomes the first rental company to offer this principle of zero emission temporary electricity generation offering a capacity of 100 kVA, with the new hydrogen power generator EODev–GEH2®.

    "

    The music festival and other events using this Hydrogen tech went off with out a hitch.

    The company is making them is using Tojo fuel cells by the look of it. Website is interesting


    One of the smaller ones IF the price was ok just might be a Business battery replacement/Borrowed for the boat? The 400kgs is not really suitable for my little boat alas

    Edit. The Hornsadle Power Reserve (Tesla Big Battery in NSW) was fined $900,000 by Australian Energy regulator for NOT delivering promised capacity makes interesting reading I thought. Ontop of the fine they had to give back 3.4 million charged for power they did not deliver. Whoops?

  8. #18
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    BlackRock to spend $1b on batteries in Australia as coal closures loom

    By Nick Toscano

    August 16, 2022 — 12.00am













    The world’s biggest fund manager, BlackRock, has selected Australia for the rollout of its largest investment in grid-scale batteries that will be crucial to driving the shift from coal to clean energy. link


    Black rock like musk will get Other peoples money to pay for things. Personally I love it partly and think it's a con at another level.


    Big batteries are a short term fix for storage only. I think I would want a long term fix for a $billion.

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