V8 Discovery on Hydrogen

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Originally Posted by clean32

Every one seems to be missing the point here. Its hydrogen as a supplement fuel to aid the burning of the current fuel. Not as a replacement fuel. There is no doubt that the energy required to produce hydrogen out weighs the energy received.

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Where is the proof that adding some hydrogen miraculously improves the combustion process??? This would be something easy to verify in a lab.

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Originally Posted by clean32

But my interest is in the fact that fuel manufactures add hydrogen to our current fuels.

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What, how where??? See my comment about the hydrogen you claim is "added" to diesel in a previous post.

LPG has the highest hydrogen to carbon ratio of any common automotive fuel. Yet an LPG vehicle burns more fuel than an equivalent petrol vehicle, because the fuel has a lower calorific value / energy content.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by clean32

Every one seems to be missing the point here. Its hydrogen as a supplement fuel to aid the burning of the current fuel. Not as a replacement fuel. There is no doubt that the energy required to produce hydrogen out weighs the energy received. But my interest is in the fact that fuel manufactures add hydrogen to our current fuels. They wouldn’t be doing that solely to reduce there profit margins now would they??
So there must be something in it all

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I am reasonably familiar with upstream oil operations, and this is the first time I have ever heard of hydrogen being added to any fuel anywhere (except on an experimental basis, and even then as a separate feed to the engine). If you have a reference to support this I would be interested to see it.

Because of the difficulties in handling hydrogen in an industrial context I would have thought that if it were even an uncommon practice I would have heard of it. In fact I would be surprised if adding hydrogen to diesel fuels (and possibly petrol) would allow them to remain withing legal limits of flash points.

Note that all hydrocarbon and virtually all other fuels such as alcohols and biodiesel contain combined hydrogen, but the proportion of combined hydrogen has no direct relevance to their value as fuels, their combustibility, or any other property, and this combined hydrogen should not be confused with adding hydrogen to the fuel.


john

all the bitching scientific crap aside. Have we got any further results from the original poster?

I am honestly interested in hearing the latest results.

i added a point

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Originally Posted by isuzurover

Maybe we should move the bickering to another thread...


OK how about a "back of the envelope" analysis of these hydrogen electolysis systems (talking about the add-on systems to a petrol or diesel here).

You have an engine running on petrol or diesel, let's say it produces 100kW or power.

The engine is fitted with a 100A Alternator. 100A x 13.5V = 1.35kW (power produced) - it would probably take at least 1.5-2kW of engine power to turn the alternator.

So let's say all of the 1.35kW is available for electrolysis.

Water electrolysis has a theoretical maximum of about 80-90% efficiency (efficiency at converting the electrical energy to H2 + O2) - note that that is theoretical, most systems are much worse.

However let's say we have 80% efficiency. So we get 0.8*1.35 = 1.08kW.

Now a typical engine is at best about 30% efficient at turning fuel into power. WOuld the small amount of hydrogen give you a more efficient burn making the engine more efficient? even a 10% gain here is gaining on the power the other fuel makes also?? seems logicalSo we would really have about 0.3kW of power generated by the fuel.

So - bottom line, is that even if the power of the alternator is "free", and the alternator was ONLY running the electrolysis. We could expect <1% difference in fuel consumption. (also assuming the fuel metering was adjusted to compensate).

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the results so far: (I don't think we'll be getting any)

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Originally Posted by cnorris

No more posts on hydrogen on this forum from me.
Cheers
cnorris

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I, like some others have been watching this thread since cnorris' original post and it grabbed my interest because I've also heard and read some positive things about the addition of hydrogen gas to the fuel/air mix - petrol or diesel.

My particular interest is in the benefits with a diesel and this thread is about someone's experience with a V8 (my V8 is already running on lpg) which is why I haven't been posting

I don't know if it works or helps, but I'm interested in finding out more.

Like sleepy ... (no assumption from me on level of education)

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Originally Posted by sleepy

I am sceptical too cnorris (Sceptical not cynical).
I am happy to be convinced.

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A fellow Landy owner and new forum member (no assumption from me on level of education) posts up his experiences in an endeavour to share his experiences and ideas with anyone else who is interested, he even states:

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Originally Posted by cnorris

Wanted to find out for myself

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by cnorris

a little temporary until I was convinced it worked

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Originally Posted by cnorris

my objective is to get results

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He's not trying to sell me anything,
He's not trying to part me and my cash,
He doesn't even seem to have a vested interest at all

Then the crap starts and is beautifully summed up (no assumption from me on level of education)by JohnE:

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Originally Posted by JohnE

Here we go again,
alternate energies forum someone comes up with an alternate energy device,they have tried and they reckon it works,
then the "resident experts" shoot him down in flames,
thats priceless.

so much for onsite goodwill and a sense of fair play. What does it tell the world, its says come on board dare to say something different and you will be treated like a leper!

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After trawling through a bunch of almost irrelevant links (no-one here is claiming to run a V8 purely on hydrogen) and wikipedia entries

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Originally Posted by sleepy

I watched my 12 yo daughter amend a Wikipedia page with 3 clicks of the mouse :o

"Look Dad, I'm famous!":blink:

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- we're already aware that:

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Originally Posted by clean32

... it takes more to produce than it will produce,

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I appreciate the insight and analysis from JDNSW and izuzurover (no assumption from me on level of education) but as clean32 has mentioned:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by clean32

Every one seems to be missing the point here. Its hydrogen as a supplement fuel to aid the burning of the current fuel. Not as a replacement fuel. There is no doubt that the energy required to produce hydrogen out weighs the energy received

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So, (remembering that my interest is in diesel) it seems accepted that lpg fumigation on a diesel motor has benefits. Those benefits are said to be due to the way the combination burns in the motor rather than the calorific content of the lpg which is introduced.
Nothing I've read here or in the posted links answers the question of whether introducing hydrogen can do similar things.

Stevo

McRover
Don't bother replying, you've added very little to this discussion and your track record stands for itself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by McRover

"Im not going to bother going into the ins and outs of why it doesnt work" (good)
"No I havnt built one of these systems but I have removed at least 2 of them. (not even sure how many???)
"Maybe tomorrow I should ring Dr Karl on JJJ and ask him" (that'll help)
"...must appologise to clean32, I should have checked" (yep)
"Yeah sorry Clean32, my mistake there.:D" (again)
"....I believe but I may be wrong, I am a lot you know." (yep)

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sschmez..... You Da MAN!!!!!!

That is the best Forum post I have ever read. Use it as a bench mark boys and girls.

Schmezz - like you, I am interested, however as a scientist/engineer, I am sceptical (by training and nature).

I (along with everyone else) would be very interested to hear more info from cnorris. However, if someone (even a fellow landie owner) comes out and makes claims without backing them up, surely we can be excused for not taking the claims at face value. Would you believe a random landie owner who walked up to you and told you that he had discovered cold fusion?

The fact is, there are plenty of people who are convinced that:

Hyclones
Fuel catalysts
Brocky's polariser?
The "Firepower" fuel pill
And numerous other snake oil products...

Actually work. Just like JohnE seems convinced that water powered cars work (in opposition to the huge body of scientific knowledge).

I would be very happy if such a system could be proven to make a real difference to diesel engine economy. i.e. I would be HAPPY to be proven wrong

Regarding your post about the diesel/lpg systems. The companies (developers/installers) claim that you typically need about 25L of LPG for every 100L of diesel. So about 25% LPG. As I posted above, the levels of H2 we are talking about here are <<1%.

Tinka - that is of course the claim, but there is no proof that <1% H2 gas in the fuel system can make such a huge difference.

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Originally Posted by mrapocalypse

sschmez..... You Da MAN!!!!!!

That is the best Forum post I have ever read. Use it as a bench mark boys and girls.

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X2. Should be made a sticky.

JC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sschmez

the results so far: (I don't think we'll be getting any)


I, like some others have been watching this thread since cnorris' original post and it grabbed my interest because I've also heard and read some positive things about the addition of hydrogen gas to the fuel/air mix - petrol or diesel.

My particular interest is in the benefits with a diesel and this thread is about someone's experience with a V8 (my V8 is already running on lpg) which is why I haven't been posting

I don't know if it works or helps, but I'm interested in finding out more.

Like sleepy ... (no assumption from me on level of education)


A fellow Landy owner and new forum member (no assumption from me on level of education) posts up his experiences in an endeavour to share his experiences and ideas with anyone else who is interested, he even states:



He's not trying to sell me anything,
He's not trying to part me and my cash,
He doesn't even seem to have a vested interest at all

Then the crap starts and is beautifully summed up (no assumption from me on level of education)by JohnE:



After trawling through a bunch of almost irrelevant links (no-one here is claiming to run a V8 purely on hydrogen) and wikipedia entries

- we're already aware that:


I appreciate the insight and analysis from JDNSW and izuzurover (no assumption from me on level of education) but as clean32 has mentioned:


So, (remembering that my interest is in diesel) it seems accepted that lpg fumigation on a diesel motor has benefits. Those benefits are said to be due to the way the combination burns in the motor rather than the calorific content of the lpg which is introduced.
Nothing I've read here or in the posted links answers the question of whether introducing hydrogen can do similar things.

Stevo

McRover
Don't bother replying, you've added very little to this discussion and your track record stands for itself.

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Yes Stevo you make a great point and it is a subject that is worth discussing.....

And thats what we are doing, Discussing it :D

There is more than just a possitive side to a discussion, if there is to be a propper technical discussion where anyone is to learn anything then you have to look at both sides of the coin and not just agree agree agree as if nothing was challenged then nothing would be learned.

You have done a great job of editing again as well as I have also said that I will be happy to be prooven wrong several times but you didnt post that.

I cant stop anyone from building one but I do have the ability to question if it works and make reference to reasons why it wont/cant work.

I have also CLEARLY posted that the system I was talking about as was Isuzurover were supplementary systems and I even explained in depth how one would get it to actually show some of what is claimed and yet apparently we are still talking about running a car solely on Hydrogen.

Please before any of you guys post up any more, go back through the posts and read them properly and stop just skimming over them as your the ones getting the wrong idea.

It seems that if you ask these guys to actually proove their system works then it starts getting nasty and things go south.

My track record with a small group off this forum who now dont frequent it all that often has nothing to do with Hydrogen generation in motor vehicals and so there for has nothing to do with this thread.

Stop worrying about the past and get on with the future Stevo, thats what this is all about.

Now people, KEEP IT REAL :D

i am thinking, pot kettel??

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Originally Posted by mcrover

Yes Stevo you make a great point and it is a subject that is worth discussing.....

And thats what we are doing, Discussing it :D

There is more than just a possitive side to a discussion, if there is to be a propper technical discussion where anyone is to learn anything then you have to look at both sides of the coin and not just agree agree agree as if nothing was challenged then nothing would be learned.

You have done a great job of editing again as well as I have also said that I will be happy to be prooven wrong several times but you didnt post that.

I cant stop anyone from building one but I do have the ability to question if it works and make reference to reasons why it wont/cant work.

I have also CLEARLY posted that the system I was talking about as was Isuzurover were supplementary systems and I even explained in depth how one would get it to actually show some of what is claimed and yet apparently we are still talking about running a car solely on Hydrogen.

Please before any of you guys post up any more, go back through the posts and read them properly and stop just skimming over them as your the ones getting the wrong idea.

It seems that if you ask these guys to actually proove their system works then it starts getting nasty and things go south.

My track record with a small group off this forum who now dont frequent it all that often has nothing to do with Hydrogen generation in motor vehicals and so there for has nothing to do with this thread.

Stop worrying about the past and get on with the future Stevo, thats what this is all about.

Now people, KEEP IT REAL :D

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