TOYOTA TROUBLE please help us

[banjo]

Ok the trouble we have had upto today was the batery light has been coming on when i loked at the batery it was empty of water ,no leaks just evaporated so filled it up & was going fine the light went out & all was good. Then the other day it done the same the light came on so checked the batery again & it was low in some but not empty,so i toped them up fatty said that the light went out again.the batery is old now 4 years.But today fatty went to clean the house that she does & the car was fine, came home then had to go out again & while out the car wouldn't start & no one helped to jump it ,so i went down & jumped it ..BUT on the way home we only got half way it started to backfire so bad & loud & i sware i saw a flame pop out as i was behind her..So we went back to tow it home after lunch & fatty managed to snap my hightensile chain..So she had to drive it back got most of the way then it started to backfire again but we managed to get it home...Now i need to know could the battery have something to do with this as i think its dead I will test it later the sarve to make sure its charging from the alt.But i had a high energy coil laying around so i put it in fatty's crapota & i was wondering if it mite be this I still have the origanal so ican put it back in...But could a battery cause it to backfire if there isn't enuff power going to the coil....
The car is a toyota 4runner with 2.4 petrol naturally asperated...
I dont want to go & get battery & have it not be that..
After any advise please....

[banjo]

OH yeah when you turn the key its dead nothing..

[incisor]

sounds like an ignition problem to me..

try the old coil...

[justinc]

Jason, Sounds like the alternator is overcharging causing the battery to boil. This will ruin its ability to hold a charge, therefore the backfiring is possibly due to low voltages at the coil etc. Try another battery, then check the charge rate, should be between 13.2 and 14.5 volts. I'd bet you are seeing 17+ volts to cause that amount of boiling dry:o

Regulator has probably packed up:( What vehicle is it?

JC

[banjo]

80 something toyota 4runner 2.4 petrol with carby.

[Blknight.aus]

yep...

the batteries toasted...

either the alternators massively overcharging it or its FUBAR.

to check it....

measure the volts on the terminal of the battery then take out your landy, jump start the toymota and leave the leads connected after its started. check the voltage at the toymotas battery terminals.

then remove the jumper leads and measure again.

anything over say 14.4V is over charging This is boiling the battery (as pointed out by JC) shut it down and you need to investigate the charging circuit.

once its running if its getting more than say 13v on the terminals with no accessories on then in theory the charging side is good but to test it turn on every bit of electrical load that you can if the voltage stays over 13v then the alternator is capable of running the vehicle and charging the battery.

after its run for 10-20 minutes shut it down and measure the battery voltage. 20 minutes later measure the voltage again this generally gives you an indication of a battery thats just surface charging if it drops below 11v then its either toast or you have a huge parasitic load in the vehicle.

now turn the headlights on high beam. IF the battery was over 12v and dips below 11 the battery is toast.

If it holds 12V with the headlights on turn them off, pull the power feed for the coil and have someone crank the starter (caution some engines will need you to put a dummy load on the coils power feed) if the battery volts drops below 10V after about 5 seconds then the battery is also not happy.

A bad battery can cause all kinds of electrical issues and firing out the exhaust is a symptom of intermitant spark. What happens is the same deal as doing "key bangers" the unfired fuel air mix winds up in the exhaust and then the hot gas from the next power stroke ignites it.

[justinc]

80 something toyota 4runner 2.4 petrol with carby.

Jason,
That model has an external reg from memory. Should be on the inner guard, LH side. Easy to change:)
There was a change to internally regulated Alternators late 80's, not sure what point though.

JC

[banjo]

yep...

the batteries toasted...

either the alternators massively overcharging it or its FUBAR.

to check it....

measure the volts on the terminal of the battery then take out your landy, jump start the toymota and leave the leads connected after its started. check the voltage at the toymotas battery terminals.

then remove the jumper leads and measure again.

anything over say 14.4V is over charging This is boiling the battery (as pointed out by JC) shut it down and you need to investigate the charging circuit.

once its running if its getting more than say 13v on the terminals with no accessories on then in theory the charging side is good but to test it turn on every bit of electrical load that you can if the voltage stays over 13v then the alternator is capable of running the vehicle and charging the battery.

after its run for 10-20 minutes shut it down and measure the battery voltage. 20 minutes later measure the voltage again this generally gives you an indication of a battery thats just surface charging if it drops below 11v then its either toast or you have a huge parasitic load in the vehicle.

now turn the headlights on high beam. IF the battery was over 12v and dips below 11 the battery is toast.

If it holds 12V with the headlights on turn them off, pull the power feed for the coil and have someone crank the starter (caution some engines will need you to put a dummy load on the coils power feed) if the battery volts drops below 10V after about 5 seconds then the battery is also not happy.

A bad battery can cause all kinds of electrical issues and firing out the exhaust is a symptom of intermitant spark. What happens is the same deal as doing "key bangers" the unfired fuel air mix winds up in the exhaust and then the hot gas from the next power stroke ignites it.

THANKS dave when she brings the rover back i will try it all & let use all know THANKS HEAPS..

[banjo]

Jason,
That model has an external reg from memory. Should be on the inner guard, LH side. Easy to change:)
There was a change to internally regulated Alternators late 80's, not sure what point though.

JC

I think its 87 from memery.

[PAT303]

Banjo,just to clarify,you call your wife fatty?,I mean no offence mate,just asking. Pat

[justinc]

I think its 87 from memery.

MOST Carb ones were external regulator type. Same set up as Bundera. The Part number for the Ingrams replacement one is 831231 AFAIR.

JC

[banjo]

Banjo,just to clarify,you call your wife fatty?,I mean no offence mate,just asking. Pat


YEP shes known as FATTY.& shes happy to be called by that from anyone here ..

[banjo]

MOST Carb ones were external regulator type. Same set up as Bundera. The Part number for the Ingrams replacement one is 831231 AFAIR.

JC

YEP just went down & tryed the key lights on dash come on then when you try & start it its dead.its parked a couple of doors down forgot to check what year its is pretty sure it 87.i'll have to wait till fatty gets back to jump it.plus mine has to go in first as the batteries are in the back of mine & its easier to push the crapota out than in...

[banjo]

MOST Carb ones were external regulator type. Same set up as Bundera. The Part number for the Ingrams replacement one is 831231 AFAIR.

JC

How the hell do you know the part number off the top of your head.

[banjo]

I do know the alternator is covered in power steering fluid..We dont want to keep it thats why we never realy spent anything on it,it was only to get fatty driving a manual.

[PAT303]

You have a very understanding wife Banjo,if the alternator is covered in PS fluid it would not be helping,it's common for cruisers to show the warning light because the plug comes loose from the alternator or it fills with muck,I'd look at giving it a good clean-up and checking the output. Pat

[banjo]

Ok this is what happend.i jumped it got in the carport.then started from scratch we jumped it & it read somewhere around the 12. something.when i diconected the leads it went to 9.4 to 9.11 & when i reved it it got to 9.30.& when we turned it off it started to go up from 9.30 i didnt see what it went up to just thought thats bad.

[banjo]

Ok this is what happend.i jumped it got in the carport.then started from scratch we jumped it & it read somewhere around the 12. something.when i diconected the leads it went to 9.4 to 9.11 & when i reved it it got to 9.30.& when we turned it off it started to go up from 9.30 i didnt see what it went up to just thought thats bad.

I think the batery & the alternator are FUBAR
& i cant find the old coil now...

[BigJon]

As others have said, it is a pretty safe bet the voltage regulator has failed.
It is a pretty common failure to occur to Toyotas of that vintage when they get a few kms on board.
Even if the alternator is internally regulated the replacement is cheap and a 5 minute fit.

[Blknight.aus]

The alternators either working too hard because the battery is stuffed OR the alternator cant keep up because the oil has contaminated everything, you might even have some AC ripple coming out of it which is stopping it from charging and if bad enough will fry batteries in very short order.

will your landy battery physically fit in the toymota for diagnostics testing?

[banjo]

The alternators either working too hard because the battery is stuffed OR the alternator cant keep up because the oil has contaminated everything, you might even have some AC ripple coming out of it which is stopping it from charging and if bad enough will fry batteries in very short order.

will your landy battery physically fit in the toymota for diagnostics testing?

I think it will i'll have a look in the morning..
unless the terminals are around the other way from the toyota

[banjo]

Theres a big black box thing half way along the lefthand side,would that be the regulator thingy..

[drifter]

Has it got 6 wires coming out of it?


I have a Haynes Toyota Hi-Lux & 4Runner (petrol) 1979 thru 1996 Repair Manual here.

They don't actually describe WHERE the regulator is - but you may be able to narrow it down by following the wires from the alternator.

[drifter]

And, by the way, if you get it going and feel like keeping it for a while, the manual is yours - no charge.

[banjo]

Has it got 6 wires coming out of it?


I have a Haynes Toyota Hi-Lux & 4Runner (petrol) 1979 thru 1996 Repair Manual here.

They don't actually describe WHERE the regulator is - but you may be able to narrow it down by following the wires from the alternator.

Not sure but i will have a look first thing in the morning..na hang on i get a torch and i have a look see..

[banjo]

OK it has
white red
white blue
white green
thicker yellow one
thicker white one

the cover has 2 screws holding it on so it comes off..

And it has NEW ERA
MADE IN TAIWAN

writen on it..

[banjo]

And, by the way, if you get it going and feel like keeping it for a while, the manual is yours - no charge.



Mite take you up on that later the one we have was left in the car ,it was only 3/8 of an inch thick till it got wet now its about 2'' thick...plus its packed away somewhere fatty just said..

[drifter]

OK it has
white red
white blue
white green
thicker yellow one
thicker white one

the cover has 2 screws holding it on so it comes off..

And it has NEW ERA
MADE IN TAIWAN

writen on it..

According to the wiring diagram, there is a WL wire, too.

White I understand. What is L?

Anyways, sounds like you have identified the regulator.

[drifter]

Mite take you up on that later the one we have was left in the car ,it was only 3/8 of an inch thick till it got wet now its about 2'' thick...plus its packed away somewhere fatty just said..

No worries - if there is anyone heading up that way they could take it - or I could post it but we won't know where you will be until you get some papers signed - or I could post it to Aus and he could drop it around some time (gives him another reason to pop in ;) )

[V8Ian]

According to the wiring diagram, there is a WL wire, too.

White I understand. What is L?

Anyways, sounds like you have identified the regulator.
Lilac.

[drifter]

Gotcha

Thanks

[banjo]

Ok guys this is what i did this morning we started it (jumped) & while the leads from my car where still on i took a reading before starting it 12.something Then when i took them off it went down to 9 something & doesn't change when you rev it..so o put the multimeter on the alternator while it was going & it was the same..
is this the voltage thingy ????

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://img716.imageshack.us/i/sdc10646.jpg/)

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/8629/sdc10647.jpg (http://img51.imageshack.us/i/sdc10647.jpg/)

And while it was still on the car with out the cover if i play with it ,it makes the dash light go out.
& when i push the red coil thingy the light goes out BUT the chage stayed the same just the light went out..
Should i get another one & hope for the best.
PS fatty said whoever said they where cheap she wants to give you a slap up the head $66 for.should i go get one .mob down the road has one in..

[V8Ian]

Sounds like alternator issues, not reg, Jason.

[banjo]

great even beter ..i'll let you tell fatty .ok ian

[banjo]

Fatty said just hand the freakin plates back in.cause she has had enuff ..at least my car is finished & going it could of been worse if it wasn't finished..

[V8Ian]

Toyo alternators are plentiful and cheap, my diagnoses was only a guess, but I think alts should pump out about 14.5V to be tamed by the reg. JC or Dave will hopefully be along soon.

[banjo]

Yeah just rang a couple of wreckers can only get reco exchange with 6 months warranty $150...She said noway hand the plates in...

[THE BOOGER]

Ask for a 2nd hand one not reco or ring some other wreckers, in sydney 2nd hand is about 30/45 with 3 month some ties you have to take them off the car yourself so give swmbo a shifter and socket set:p

[V8Ian]

Yeah just rang a couple of wreckers can only get reco exchange with 6 months warranty $150...She said noway hand the plates in...
Recoed by Mr Sheen no doubt, get the model number from yours and ask for that; the alts are common to some of the sedan range too. Try cleaning the PS fluid from yours, that may be effecting the performance of it.

[banjo]

Yeah i mite take it off the sarvo & pull it apart give it a good clean out..

[banjo]

One filthy alternator,we going to take it get it tested on monday.But i mite clean it first..tomorrow..

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/9783/sdc10648.jpg (http://img716.imageshack.us/i/sdc10648.jpg/)

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/8805/sdc10649da.jpg (http://img97.imageshack.us/i/sdc10649da.jpg/)

[BigJon]

[/URL]

[URL="http://img51.imageshack.us/i/sdc10647.jpg/"] (http://img716.imageshack.us/i/sdc10646.jpg/)


PS fatty said whoever said they where cheap she wants to give you a slap up the head $66

All a matter of perspective mate. I reckon $66 is pretty cheap. It all depends what you compare it to. From memory a TD5 alternator is near on 10 times that amount...

[Blknight.aus]

td5 alternators are $450.. + about $150 to fit the bugger.

charging volts should be about 14ish anything over 13 is good enough for a beater.

you can get that alternator for $50 dollars or a later model unit with an internal regulator for the same money.

looking for the diagram on the voltage regulator you have there, you should be able to replace the alternator with an internally regulated item. or If I can find the layout of that regulator you have there that one can be canabilised with a bit of soldering and some 30a relays.

if you've got a goodish set of spanners and know your way around the multimeter we can do the "over the net" strip of the alternator testing it and then set it up....


for the next step put it all back together with the cap off of the "regulator" pack and using a plastic thingy (the back of a small screwdriver works really well) manually close the contact points on the relays and see what that does for your voltages.

[Blknight.aus]

I cant get the wiring diagram for that component off of the net. can someone with the haynes or OEM manual post up the pics of the diagram.

and I found a couple of dozen listings on Ebay for alternators that are internally regulated that should do the job but will probabley need some minor fabricating and wiring mods to get to work.

I assume potentially sub $20 for an alternator is ok?

[banjo]

Thanks dave,yeah i'm looking to replace or fix but theres no hurry cause we can use the rover plus we not doing to much till the move anyway..

[banjo]

Hey Dave i didnt even think to look at fleebay just had a look & found one the same as ours for $50 & i sked him for a postage cost ,its from QLD cooroy i think it was..

[banjo]

Ok we had the alternator tested at the auto sparky's he said it seems good ..so we tested the voltage regulator going by the workshop manual all was good but one reading it had to be 11 omh we got 10....can anyone think of anything else to try we are going to put the battery out of the rover a bit later & see if that makes a differance plus i will check all the wireing see if anything is wrong there .I'll let use know how we get on.Still cant find the origanal coil that i took out to put the bosch GT 40 in,i think thats what it is anyway..

[V8Ian]

Ok we had the alternator tested at the auto sparky's he said it seems good ..so we tested the voltage regulator going by the workshop manual all was good but one reading it had to be 11 omh we got 10....can anyone think of anything else to try we are going to put the battery out of the rover a bit later & see if that makes a differance plus i will check all the wireing see if anything is wrong there .I'll let use know how we get on.Still cant find the origanal coil that i took out to put the bosch GT 40 in,i think thats what it is anyway..
Is it a GT 40 or GT 40 R?

[banjo]

Is it a GT 40 or GT 40 R?

ITS a RED coil..with GT something on it..

[V8Ian]

ITS a RED coil..with GT something on it..
The R signifies that it needs to be used in conjunction with a resistor (essential).

[banjo]

The R signifies that it needs to be used in conjunction with a resistor (essential).
IT has one of those on it little white ceramic thing ...

[banjo]

I'm guessing that on the uderside of it there will be like a spring wire thing from memery...

[V8Ian]

I'm guessing that on the uderside of it there will be like a spring wire thing from memery...
Yep, that's the ballast resistor.

[Hoges]

FWIW Have you wire brushed the battery terminals and cleaned the inside of the + & - screw clamps ? Was wondering if you might also have a dry joint contributing to the problem...just a thought. Also, when you do a jump start, are you connecting the negative lead from the donor battery to a solid ground point on the Toyo, NOT the neg on the Toyo battery... just asking...

[banjo]

FWIW Have you wire brushed the battery terminals and cleaned the inside of the + & - screw clamps ? Was wondering if you might also have a dry joint contributing to the problem...just a thought. Also, when you do a jump start, are you connecting the negative lead from the donor battery to a solid ground point on the Toyo, NOT the neg on the Toyo battery... just asking...

Hi hoges yep did all that thanks ..

[banjo]

Well i decided to check the rovers battery today its charging at 13.7 to 13.75
at the battery.But the alternator it is charging at 14.3 i think the loss is because i have long leads as the battery's are right up the back it the toolboxs on each side..So that my car..
Now i went & put the alternator back in fatty's car & hooked it all back up still the same ish..well i thought i would play with the voltage regulator i had nothing to lose.so i jump stated it & off i went a playing around with the thing..WELL it is the regulator thats stuffed ,havent been able to find one as yet fatty's going into town tomorrow cause a shop in there mite be able to match it & order one overnight.

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/9498/sdc10646.jpg (http://img716.imageshack.us/i/sdc10646.jpg/)

the copper coil in the pic is the problem the gap is to large at the top so i bent the top things a bit & it seems to be charging some ,not at the right amount.At idle its around the 12.9 ish but when we rev it a bit it goes upto 13.2 ish maybe a tad more.....AND its starting without a jump & fatty just went down to aldi & back & said is ok same as it used to be ..SO i will be looking for reg & it should all be good after a new one is in..
THANKS everyone....

[V8Ian]

Jason, try Ashdowns for a reg, but I'd be making sure that's the problem before forking out the dollars.

[banjo]

Yeah i am pretty sure its the reg.it only make a differance in the charge volts when i play with the reg .I have checked everything else .Plus the battery seems to be holding a charge now & we dont need to jump start it now..The auto sparky fatty went to this mornin seems to think its the reg after she told him what was going on & what had happend........

[banjo]

Well that was $85 well spent got the new voltage regulator & put it in & hey presto ****ing nothing happend still only charging at 11.68 ....BUT yesterday when i was playing with the old reg it made a differance only just but it did.I have checked everything from the reg to the alternator seems fine had the alternator tested & was fine..I have no idea but i am now very ****ed off cause it seems not to be the reg today....maybe tomorrow it will be something else..

[banjo]

Well fatty went down to warners bay round trip of say 20 to 25 mins whenshe got there the charge light on the dash went out so when she got back i tested it & it was 12.92 ish but when i reved it nothing so i reved it harder to 4000 & the light came back on SO i took the batery out of the rover & tried that it was the same was about 12 ish & when reved it didnt do a thing...:mad::twisted:

[banjo]

Ok been out working on fatty's crapoyta all morning & still no luck. Its starting & running with no charge light on had been running for awhile just idling, on the dash was running fine.so i reved it up went to 4k then the light came on & no more charge it was down to 11.5 so i went & played with the wiring & it went off & started to charge again so i left it running for a bit & was fine so i reved it again & the dash light came on & no charging .Couldn't get it to go off or charge again. The car has been turned off for a little bit now so i will go start it again & see if it works. I have no idea now as to what it could be i checked the wires all of then from voltage reg to battery & the fuse box under the bonet all good checked the continuity & was all fine plus a visual check & i sprayed & cleaned all the plugs is the system i could find..
Starting to look like its going to be a freebie..
Or a big bombfire.


The voltage regulator is a brandnew one.
Battery is fine .
Alternator checked out ok at auto sparky he said was charging fine..(bench tested).

[bblaze]

I wonder if it may have a broken wire inside the insulating plastic , maybe close to the engine so when it revs it is enough to flex and break contact.
When its charging again work your way along the loom bending and twisting the wires and see if that produces the fault.
cheers
blaze
ps
or an invite to the bonfire

[banjo]

Thanks Blaze i'll do that.I just went & started it & nothing changed .was sitting on 11.7 then when i unpluged 1 of the plugs it went to 11.72 then back to 11.7..Just about had enuff.
Was wondering if it mite be the alt when it gets hot or some speed on it something not working properly in it .

[banjo]

Went & tryed again but no luck will try maybe later or first thing in the mornin when completely cold. It was 11.6 this time when i started it..

[BMKal]

If you've got a decent multi meter, I'd be measuring the alternator output AT THE ALTERNATOR rather than at the battery. Measure this throughout rev range etc - this will at least either confirm or eliminate the alternator as the problem.

If the alternator checks out OK - then start looking for a problem in the wiring, or simply bridge it as a temporary fix. It wouldn't be the first time that I've had to run a new wire from the alternator output to the battery to get myself out of trouble.

If the alternator still gives you the same sort of erratic readings that you're getting now when you measure the output at the alternator, then it's a pretty safe bet that the alternator's the problem, and you're wasting your time looking anywhere else.

[banjo]

If you've got a decent multi meter, I'd be measuring the alternator output AT THE ALTERNATOR rather than at the battery. Measure this throughout rev range etc - this will at least either confirm or eliminate the alternator as the problem.

If the alternator checks out OK - then start looking for a problem in the wiring, or simply bridge it as a temporary fix. It wouldn't be the first time that I've had to run a new wire from the alternator output to the battery to get myself out of trouble.

If the alternator still gives you the same sort of erratic readings that you're getting now when you measure the output at the alternator, then it's a pretty safe bet that the alternator's the problem, and you're wasting your time looking anywhere else.

THANKS Kal i will do that first thing in the morning & let use know how i get on. thanks again.

[banjo]

Well been out working on that peice of **** crapoyta allday today took the alternator out again.it was only charging at 11.8 i have checked all the wiring & plugs between the voltage reg & battery all seem fine but an auto sparky checked it & tested the alt again today said it was fine but its cold & not upto speed doing the bench test..So while it was out i looked for where all the power steering fluid was coming from & bugger me there was a bolt missing from the bottom of the pump so i gave it all a clean up & found a bolt to fit , that was that job done. So i pulled the alternator apart to see how it was & the bushes where, Well the amount of **** & grime & fluid in it wasn't funny & the bushes where next to nothing left so went back to the auto sparky & got some new ones $8 for the two.. So i cleaned it all up that was a nightmare so much **** in it, put the new bushes in it & all soldered up , Put it all back together Then fitted bac in the car.. I wasn't expecting much but after it was in & all hooked up it was time to start it.. & it did start & was charging but down a little but with the new voltage regulator we got it is adjustable so i let the car warm up & put the multimeter on it , it was 13.5 right on the bottom side of what it said it should be in the book. The book said it should be regutated voltage 13.5 to 15.1 volts..
SO inside the new voltage reg is a thing like a nob thingy that can be turned , So i set the tacho on 2000 rpm with the hand throtle nob on the dash & went & played wound it down first it went to 12.9 so slowly worked it up till it was on the 14.2 mark , left it for i minute & it dropped a little so very slowly wound it up again till it was on the 15.23 & left it & was good so i turned the hand throtle right down & off & the volts are now 14.19 to 14.2 so it was all good ..
So i turned the car off & the volts started to drop didn't leave it on long enuff to see how low But waited 20 mins & tryed to start it & it started. All this time the dash light stayed off even after some real heavy reving upto about 5k to 5.5k & still stayed off it wasn't doing this before it would allways come on & stop charging . So i put the car away for now & will go & try to start it after tea & if ok fatty going to take it for a drive for a while in our street & see how it goes & if ok will take it a bit ferther & see how it goes ..But if we are lucky it mite be ok & I CAN HAVE MY CAR BACK...

THANKS again ti all how gave advise I will let use all know how it goes ..

THANK to Drifter for the workshop manual very helpfull & an interesting read..