My Front Recovery Point p38A

[Razza's Rangie]

Hey Guys
Thought i would share with you the Front recovery point on my Rangie. I have tested it twice now (both times i had to pull a hilux out). Fairly Easy fitment too. check out the photos and let me know what you think! ( There are a few more washers and things that i fitted but for the photo i kept it simple)

I am going for a stress test in 2 weeks, where i will get my rangie bogged albiet on purpose for the FIRST TIME( my record is that i have never been snatched out and have gone every where the others go...just good luck i guess) and have to be recovered via the newly fitted recovery point!

Its neat and isnt too obtrusive if you still want to keep the original front bar (until a brand new bull bar gets ordered from HRA)

Let me know what you guys think!
Razza

[p38arover]

Looks good. From whom did you get it?

[Razza's Rangie]

Just trying to find them now, it was only about 80 bucks for two of them and takes about 30 mins to fit...

as soon as i find the guy that sells them ill let you know, they are for a discovery series 1. ( i think that he also does rear wheel carriers for discovery's)

[Razza's Rangie]

WOW!...just had a look at the photo's...errmm my car looks really bad, but its mud that i havent washed off!!

I found the guys that sold them to me the link is below, they are $95 and for this you get two one for each side.

once fitted to the chassis, i just held the bumper up to it and you can see where to cut.

http://www.4x4intelligence.com.au/

I thought i would give them a little work out and went out and found a willing participant ( a hilux that was grounded on his belly and taking on water as it was up to his door handles) I hooked up the snatch and LOW reverse and gave him a light snatch, didnt budge, bit heavier pull, moved him about a foot, then one last pull, and he was out!

I took my car home and checked out the holes to make sure that nothing had stretched etc...and all was good.

Cheers

[PaulP38a]

Nice job Razza, looks very "factory" (in a positive sense) :D

Cheers, Paul.

[rofosixone]

i want thattttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt, great item for my p38a,thanks for info .

[DT-P38]

Looking at the first photo's, the bolts seem to be the lightest section of all that metal... what is the rating on them? Also, does anyone know what the factory ones are rated at? :confused: I haven't used them yet, but would be curious to know if I should if in trouble at any time...

In saying that, It might not be a bad idea to share a pair with someone in Melbourne?!? ;) I am happy using the tow bar at rear and probably wouldn't bother putting one on there.

[Scouse]

We all know that Range Rovers don't need front recovery points so tell us more about the rubber she's wearing :).
What size tyres have you fitted?

[adm333]

Do you need to take the fron bumper off completely or can you get at it from underneath ?

I have the factory brush bar, and i found it quie a PIA getting the bumper off to fit that.

also those bolts look a bit flimsy to me. Are they M10 or M12 ? High tensile ?

If not i'd be looking into swapping them.

Otherwise, looks great

Dave

[Razza's Rangie]

Looking at the first photo's, the bolts seem to be the lightest section of all that metal... what is the rating on them? Also, does anyone know what the factory ones are rated at? :confused: I haven't used them yet, but would be curious to know if I should if in trouble at any time...

In saying that, It might not be a bad idea to share a pair with someone in Melbourne?!? ;) I am happy using the tow bar at rear and probably wouldn't bother putting one on there.

The bolts are M12 High tensile, the factory ones ( I guess you are talking about the factory bolts, as there are no factory front recovery points) are M10 and have a plate welded onto them to keep them together i guess, they only look like mild steel as they arent used for pulling the vehicle out, just for holding the bumper on. The chassis also has a re-enforcing plate inside it to keep the walls of it crushing in when you tighten them up to BFT tightness.

Cheers

[Razza's Rangie]

We all know that Range Rovers don't need front recovery points so tell us more about the rubber she's wearing :).
What size tyres have you fitted?

HAHA so true so true, we all also know that a Range Rover would never need a front recovery point as we ALWAYS lead and pull everyone else through the hard stuff...

Sorry a little off point, she is wearing a set of cooper STT 245/75/r16 mounted on a set of d2 steel rims ( after looking everywhere graham cooper was the cheapest). Only a little bit of rubbing when she is on access mode in low car parks, but then hey i should have my road tyres on....

Cheers
Razza

[Razza's Rangie]

Do you need to take the fron bumper off completely or can you get at it from underneath ?

I have the factory brush bar, and i found it quie a PIA getting the bumper off to fit that.

also those bolts look a bit flimsy to me. Are they M10 or M12 ? High tensile ?

If not i'd be looking into swapping them.

Otherwise, looks great

Dave

Hi Dave,
you can actually get at it from underneath without removing the front bumper, its a bit more tricky though and you will need to take the grille off the front ( easy). I found that someone had not done those little clips up on the side so i just left them undone when i refitted. So now its supported by those two bolts at the front and just sliding freely on those two little things at the side.

The bolts provided are M12 high tensile and are 2mm bigger than whats in there already, so you need to scrape the paint off the wall of the holes to get them to slide in, I just ran a drill through there and that cleaned them out enough. The bolts also have a fine thread and nyloc nut.

I will go out and get my rangie stuck to give them a good test after i have fitted the other one. It will be the first time i will be snatch recovered! Ill let you know how it goes! Glass house mountains here i come ( well in two weeks when i get a day off!!)

Cheers
Razza

[DT-P38]

When you go out with that new snatch point, try to remember to never use your reversing vehicle to snatch or tow someone else out with it... I remember reading something a while ago that towing any sizable load with a P38 in reverse can actually be fatal in some way.

If anyone knows the real detail about the above "don't load up in reverse" can you please add informed comment. Also, if I'm wrong, just call me a dill and I can get it out of my (obviously fairly hollow) skull!!! :angel:

Hoo Roo, Dave

[stig0000]

razz bro,,, wicked day out 4wding,gota go agen when we can,, cant wate for the pics, how did you go with that front end mate:(,, after a few not so intended pulls:D:D

[rofosixone]

i rang up and ordered these above recovery conections ,
razza says he ( from 4x4 intelligence) paid for them $95 for two .i ordered over ph and payed by visa and simon (the boss) charged me $127.50 all up (postage from donvale vic to liverpool way nsw was $13.15 included in that price)and even with AULRO discount price seens to have gone up .they might suit disco 1/2 but if razza fitted it to his p38a well we will see with mine soon. he did say takes week he was spot on ,rang friday / frount door next friday. next , to fit it ,soon ?

[stig0000]

i rang up and ordered these above recovery conections ,
razza says he ( from 4x4 intelligence) paid for them $95 for two .i ordered over ph and payed by visa and simon (the boss) charged me $127.50 all up (postage from donvale vic to liverpool way nsw was $13.15 included in that price)and even with AULRO discount price seens to have gone up .they might suit disco 1/2 but if razza fitted it to his p38a well we will see with mine soon. he did say takes week he was spot on ,rang friday / frount door next friday. next , to fit it ,soon ?

make sure you use reinforced everything fitting them, and as many mounts to the chassis you can,, we ended up allmost ripping his off the front end for his after he got boged in a mass holl, went with one hell of a bang:(:(

[p38arover]

they are for a discovery series 1.

Hmm. I wonder if the D1 recovery points I ordered a couple of years ago from Ladas will fit. I never got around to putting them on the Disco.

[rofosixone]

just wondering stig0000,you say went off with a bang /
is that in razzas rangie with the 4x4 intelligence supplied disco 1 recovery points which was supplied to him with those 2 bolts ,are you saying those 2 bolts not strong enough you found after testing them :eek:????.

[Razza's Rangie]

Hey guys,

Yeah i went out and gave my ONE front recovery point a work out. Stupidly, I should have had TWO fitted to the car and used an equalising strap.

In the end the bottom bolt pulled out of the chassis and swung the recovery point upwards pushing the front bumper bar into the lights. Easily fixed.

I was well an truely stuck basically bellyied out on the chassis.

The bolts would have easily taken alot more strain although if i was going to fit them again i would upgrade them to M14-16 and weld plates on the sides of the chassis.

Lessons Learnt:
1- Always fit both recovery points
2- Dont get bogged
3- Order a bull bar from HRA (lol but i did order one for my birthday coming up)

hope this helps
Ryan

[p38arover]

Oooh! That doesn't look good.

I asked about P38A recovery points at a Range Rover Club meeting and was told the single existing one at the front is quite adequate for most applications.

[Hoges]

Oooh! That doesn't look good.

I asked about P38A recovery points at a Range Rover Club meeting and was told the single existing one at the front is quite adequate for most applications.

did you explain that you weren't talking about tethering (polo) ponies? :eek::wasntme::p

[rofosixone]

what would they know ronald ,there trips are mostly to air shows and tea partys and operas
were would they use recovery points on those trips ,
one is enough ya right dont think so, :cool:above pics say otherwise .(ps second that hogan).

[p38arover]

what would they know ronald ,there trips are mostly to air shows and tea partys and operas
were would they use recovery points on those trips ,
one is enough ya right dont think so, :cool:above pics say otherwise .(ps second that hogan).

The single recovery point is not bolted on like that was.

[Hoges]

Well ...I've never actually tethered ponies to mine... but it's ok for a king charles spaniel!:p:p:p

Actually I replaced the bolts which connect the control arms to the front axle assembly with longer ones and using a second nut, attached a large square plate to each over which is looped one end of a 4T rated 3m lifting sling. The 2 slings are brought together using an 8T rated shackle which is attached to the tow rope. I am not a fan of snatches.

By pulling the vehicle " up and out by its bootstraps" as it were, significantly less force is needed and one is not trying to drag the chassis off the suspension when the wheels are stuck...

the long(er) length of the slings reduces the angle of deviation from the direction of the vehicle and so less forward force is lost... (compared to shorter slings)

doesn't look as tough as a bull bar and JATE rings, but it's lotza kg less to carry around on the front suspension and the force paths are not through the chassis and are far more efficient...

they're only rolled out and put in place (20 secs work) and tied out of the way ready for use PRIOR to reaching the soft stuff!...

[p38arover]

:rulez:

Pics!

[stig0000]

well ryan bro,, hope you get it back all good so we can go out agen and try out your new reco point:D:D

[Razza's Rangie]

Hey guys!!

Yeah stig ill fit two recovery points this time and see how i do!! I am working 13 days on, 1 day off at the moment so next outing will be Saturday week if your keen?? If anyone else is keen PM me, where Glass house mountains, when Sat 17th, Trip type - "Camel trophy eat you heart out" hahaha go the mighty rangie!!

RAZ

[Razza's Rangie]

Hey Guys,
well after pulling the front of the car apart and taking it to my local welders, my baby goes in to have a nose job ( front of the chassis cut and welded up)

Lets see how that goes??? they are going to put a plate either side of the chassis and re drill the holes, they say this should make it stronger than before as the load is distributed better!!

oh p.s. dont bother calling Landrover Australia customer line, they are a waste of time if you need technical knowledge, they just tell you to ring a dealer!!! (in regards to wether i could repair and weld my chassis)
Raz

[wayneg]

Well ...I've never actually tethered ponies to mine... but it's ok for a king charles spaniel!:p:p:p

Actually I replaced the bolts which connect the control arms to the front axle assembly with longer ones and using a second nut, attached a large square plate to each over which is looped one end of a 4T rated 3m lifting sling. The 2 slings are brought together using an 8T rated shackle which is attached to the tow rope. I am not a fan of snatches.

By pulling the vehicle " up and out by its bootstraps" as it were, significantly less force is needed and one is not trying to drag the chassis off the suspension when the wheels are stuck...

the long(er) length of the slings reduces the angle of deviation from the direction of the vehicle and so less forward force is lost... (compared to shorter slings)

doesn't look as tough as a bull bar and JATE rings, but it's lotza kg less to carry around on the front suspension and the force paths are not through the chassis and are far more efficient...

they're only rolled out and put in place (20 secs work) and tied out of the way ready for use PRIOR to reaching the soft stuff!...

Can you show us a picture of this.

[p38arover]

Can you show us a picture of this.

Still waitng, Hoges! :mad:

:D

[p38arover]

i rang up and ordered these above recovery conections ,
razza says he ( from 4x4 intelligence) paid for them $95 for two .i ordered over ph and payed by visa and simon (the boss) charged me $127.50 all up (postage from donvale vic to liverpool way nsw was $13.15 included in that price)and even with AULRO discount price seens to have gone up .they might suit disco 1/2 but if razza fitted it to his p38a well we will see with mine soon. he did say takes week he was spot on ,rang friday / frount door next friday. next , to fit it ,soon ?

I see their new website shows the recovery points for $165 the pair.

4x4 Design and Engineering - Landrover Discovery 2 (http://www.4x4de.com.au/landrover-discovery-2/) (scroll down their page).

[TheTree]

Can you show us a picture of this.

Plus one for that :angel:

[p38arover]

Still waitng, Hoges! :mad:

:D

Bump!

[TheTree]

If what Hoges calls the control rod is what RAVE calls the panhard rod, I think i have worked out where he is attaching the metal plate ;)

[TheTree]

OK i have worked it out finally !

RAVE calls them Radius arms and I always thought of them as trailing arms.

This is a pic of the area in question

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/04/613.jpg

I am thinking of attaching a couple of "tongues" to these points, essentially a piece of steel with a couple of holes in it. One end bolted to the Radius arm mount and the other pointing forward ready to take a shackle.

Can anyone see any problems with doing this?

Steve
PS: I reckon Hoges set it up as a psychoanalytical test for us and that's why he never posted a pic :confused:

[Keithy P38]

I'd much prefer to shock the chassis than the diff!

[benji]

Attached to the trailing arms we'd be pushing the car from infront, or would that be pulling...;)

In many of the situations where ive been ...uh hm... temporarily imobilised, I wouldnt have been able to physically get to the front diff to attach it.

[benji]

Serves me right; just realized the p38s have rear radius arms:angel:

[TheTree]

I'd much prefer to shock the chassis than the diff!

Thinking about it, the forces involved will still be transmitted to the chassis, after all that is where most of the weight is, just via the radius arms and bushes.

So i think it's back to chassis mounted recovery points on the front by the look of it:cool:

[TheTree]

Serves me right; just realized the p38s have rear radius arms:angel:

I just call them those bloody big arms which connect the chassis to the axle housings, front and rear :ohyes:

[Hoges]

Thinking about it, the forces involved will still be transmitted to the chassis, after all that is where most of the weight is, just via the radius arms and bushes.

So i think it's back to chassis mounted recovery points on the front by the look of it:cool:

Whether you connect to the chassis directly or the axle/radius arm mounting point, the force is ultimately transmitted to the single point where the radius arm is attached to the chassis by a bushing and nut.

When the vehicle is being recovered in a forward direction and "pulled" via a connection to the axle/radius arm, there's a twisting/rotation motion on the axle and there's a (forward) pulling motion experienced by the nut/bracket holding the radius arm to the chassis. All that stops the axle being "ripped forward" is the nut on the end thread of the radius arm

Where the recovery connection is to the chassis directly, the chassis is being pulled forward while the wheels are facing resistance. In this case, the axle experiences a rotational force, this time in the opposite direction, while the radius arm is "pushed" backwards against the bracket holding it to the chassis.

The argument for attaching the recovery hook at the axle/radius arm intersection as per SteveFarmer's photo is that it essentially provides "lift" to free the front wheels and therefore less force is required compared to where the front wheels are left to push against the obstacle while the chassis is pulled forward and tries to move either horizontally or even "downwards" through spring compression thereby increasing the resistance against the front wheels...

NOTE:when I replaced the front ball joints and had the truck securely jacked and blocked, I took the opportunity to remove the front radius arms planning to rebush them. I suddnely had to change plans and reinstalled the front end as is without the recovery hooks.. no photos sorry:wasntme:

here are more references which explain it clearly: Technical Review of ADR (http://www.yican.com.au/ADR/TechADR.html)

and
YiCaN introduces Axle Direct Recovery. Website:www.yican.com.au (http://www.yican.com.au/ADR/ADRMain.htm)

sorry for long post...:angel:

[mtb_gary]

Interesting reading
Gary

[TheTree]

A little googling produced some discussions on ADR... on a well known forum :D

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/77816-axle-direct-recovery.html

and this display of recovery know how :wasntme:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/75115-how-not-pull-fourby-out-mud.html

So it looks like it's back to a chassis option for me.

Steve

[p38arover]

So it looks like it's back to a chassis option for me.

Steve

That looks like a chassis pull, not axle.

[TheTree]

Paul

After looking at the video and reading more of the thread i agree that is a chassis pull, not ADR.

The destruction was caused by a combination of horsepower and stupidity !

So the jury is still out on ADR, neither of those threads is conclusive about it.

Like others I am not a big fan of snatch recoveries either, shovels, tracks, jacks, towing and winching works in most cases IMHO.

Steve

[benji]

The ADR sounds good in theory, and a lot of it is sound to, but a little short sighted. If we all got bogged by the front axle its all good. What about the rear axle, grounded on the chassis, suctioned down in sand, steep hills, towing someone else out? What about using the recovery points to hold the front of the vehicle down to stop it rolling over?

Isnt it usually good practice to drive as your being recovered anyway? And considering the rear wheels can give enough push to allow the front wheels to climb a verticle step I think its a moot point.

[Hoges]

The marginal advantage of the ADR idea is that in "pulling" the bogged front wheels there's an upward component of the force applied which simultaneously 'lifts' the wheels at the same time thereby making the recovery more efficient.

It's a bit like trying to push a loaded removalist's trolley over a small step... it's much easier to pull the trolley instead...

There's no reason why one could not fit something similar to the rear susp. to cover all eventualities..

[p38arover]

I had the front bar off this week and, as I was refitting it, I thought about this thread.

A few years back I bought two sets of D1 recovery points which never got fitted to my D1.


Hmm. I wonder if the D1 recovery points I ordered a couple of years ago from Ladas will fit. I never got around to putting them on the Disco.

The holes in them line up perfectly with the P38A crush can mounting points. Unfortunately, the shackle eye doesn't come as far forward as the ones shown in the first post in this thread.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=96851&stc=1&d=1437741123

Razza found that 12mm bolts will fit through the holes in the chassis if a drill is run through first. However, he also found the front of the chassis is a bit weak (see post 19):
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/p38a-range-rover/100385-my-front-recovery-point-p38a-2.html#post1218293]

Razza had his chassis strengthened with plates along the sides.

At the moment I'm still half-hearted about fitting the recovery points, partly because of his experience.

[TheTree]

Hi

I noticed Troy's design used side plates to strengthen the chassis

I am also waiting for the guy who makes the winch mount to get back to me with a price for the strengthened one with recovery points

Steve

[p38arover]

Steve, thinking more about it, I doubt the crush cans could be refitted if the chassis had strengthening plates added.

[TheTree]

Hi

Mark, the guy who is selling the P38 winch mount on Ebay has created strengthened recovery points for his winch mount.

"10mm steel with approx 20mm of plate around D shackle point and bold mount points. These will be inline or greater than rated gear, these WONT be rated Steve, but if anything we've gone bigger/thicker than others to make sure there are no issues.

A few extra $ for the High Tensile bolts and all good"


Steve

[p38arover]

I noticed Troy's design used side plates to strengthen the chassis

I am also waiting for the guy who makes the winch mount to get back to me with a price for the strengthened one with recovery points

The winch mount maker is a member here.

[TheTree]

The winch mount maker is a member here.

Ahh .. his name is Mark but i'm not sure what his Aulro nic is

[p38arover]

Ahh .. his name is Mark but i'm not sure what his Aulro nic is

98P384.0

[98P384.0]

Thanks Steve,
Not much interest in these unfortunately, I was hoping at around $275 they were cheap enough for people to deal with or overlook the fact that they hang a bit lower than we would all prefer.. Anyhow, I still have 3 of these left and they might end up going a fair bit cheaper on ebay.. Keep an eye out if you're interested.


If I can get the price down a bit for next time around, I will definitely get a few for more made up.
They might be a bit more attractive at around $200..

[TheTree]

Thanks Steve,
Not much interest in these unfortunately, I was hoping at around $275 they were cheap enough for people to deal with or overlook the fact that they hang a bit lower than we would all prefer.. Anyhow, I still have 3 of these left and they might end up going a fair bit cheaper on ebay.. Keep an eye out if you're interested.


If I can get the price down a bit for next time around, I will definitely get a few for more made up.
They might be a bit more attractive at around $200..

Mark

I am interested for sure, they don't look like they hang much lower than the factory mount.

When I get one I will test the effect on the front entry angle.

The only other option I kinda liked was the French guys design with a hitch receiver mounted at the front to take a demountable winch

Regards
Steve

[98P384.0]

I haven't managed to hit it yet on a few High Country trips, not hard core stuff but rough enough.
If I was happy to leave the winch locked in gear and then unreel it via the winch motor it would be easy to tuck up nice and tight under/behind the bumper, just cutting out the underside of the bumper. But I wanted to get to the lever easy.... And make it easy to install for others... Anyhow, I had many a fun frothy trying to come up with it..

[TheTree]

I have just been told by my local club that they think the Front Recovery points are not good enough. I have a Terrafirma steering guard attached which supposedly has recovery points but we all agreed that they are hard to access and too flimsy !

I am curious as to peoples opinions on the ones described here P38 Recovery Points (http://www.rangerovers.net/outfitting/recoverypoints/P38%20Recovery%20Points.html)

Steve

PS: The winch mount guy has gone dark sadly

[TheTree]

This another approach !

Recovery Hook Kit (http://www.lrautomotive.com.au/contents/en-us/p16287.html)

Steve

[TheTree]

I am currently thinking that a combination of those two may be the best approach.

A mount which goes on both sides of the chassis, but with Hooks attached rather than a plate with a hole

It's a pity the guy on rr.net didn't provide some templates !

Steve