OMG!! independent rear ends!! FFS,,,

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Mercedes reportedly considering V8 Supercar entry Down Under

by Noah Joseph (http://www.autoblog.com/bloggers/noah-joseph/) (RSS feed (http://www.autoblog.com/bloggers/noah-joseph/rss.xml)) on Mar 14th 2010 at 7:05PM

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/03/813.jpg (http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/2007-amg-c-class-dtm/)

Mercedes C-Class DTM – Click above for high-res image gallery

While American racing fans remain enamored with stock car racing, road course-bound touring car series continue to draw big crowds overseas. In Europe there's the World Touring Car Championship. DTM is one of the most popular forms of motorsport in Germany. The Japanese have Super GT. But Down Under, V8 Supercars reign supreme.

The Australian touring car series has typically been the battleground for Ford (http://www.autoblog.com/make/ford) Falcons and Holden (http://www.autoblog.com/category/holden) Commodores, but the Aussie brands could get some company once again thanks to new regulations. Following a similar move by NASCAR, series organizers in Australia are preparing to institute a new Car of the Future program that could open the door for foreign automakers to take part. The formula calls for a spec chassis with independent rear suspension replacing the live rear axles on the current competitors, plus more advanced DOHC 24-valve engines to accompany (and eventually replace) the pushrod 16-valve units currently in place.

According to reports from the other side of the world, Mercedes-Benz (http://www.autoblog.com/make/mercedes-benz) could be the first to take advantage of the new regs, spurred into action by the increased sales of FPVs and HSVs among V8 Supercars fans Down Under. The German automaker's Australian unit has commissioned Brock Engineering – run by the legendary Peter Brock's son James – to build a sort of ring-taxi (http://ring-taxi.bmw-motorsport.com/01-2D23385944BE651314149AF75811DDD5/ring-taxi/de/index.html) type of vehicle based on the C63 AMG (http://www.autoblog.com/model/c63+amg) in which Mick Doohan – a superbike champion whose record rivals that of Valentino Rossi – will chauffeur paying customers and VIPs on hot laps around the Philip Island circuit in Victoria. The stripped-out, track-prepped C63, according to sources, could form the basis for a Mercedes V8 Supercar, similar to the company's DTM racer.

Although Mercedes typically prevents its regional subsidiaries from competing in local motorsport disciplines, an exception could apparently be made for the popular Australian series, with factory support provided to privateer entires. Nissan (http://www.autoblog.com/make/nissan) and Hyundai (http://www.autoblog.com/make/hyundai) are reportedly also considering entries in the championship

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Honestly, why would they?

If they beat the Fords and Holdens then the respective camp would complain until the Mercs were handicapped so that they could win.

As far as I can tell it's loose loose for Mercedes. I don't think it would take them much "considering" to work that out.

[Drover]

V8 Supa-Cars are Ford and Holden only. It would take a whole re-vamp of the series and totally new rules and regs for it to be anything else

In 2008 Toyota wanted to submit an entry and were promptly denied.

It is a shame, the days of "Group C" were the best, Ford's, Holden's, Mazda's, Toyotas, BMW's, Volvo's, land Rovers oh sorry that was Jag's and probably other that I cant think of.

V8 Supa-Cars have made touring car racing boring, bring back multi manufactures for the sake of Australian motor racing.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

They will have to go back to the 8500rpm limit with 4 valve heads,,

ooops sorry,, :p

the new rear end will be much better out of the corners,,
just make them understeer a bit
sorry,,;)


I dunno,, same wheelbase and wing profile, newer engines, a couple of different manufacturers (as opposed to parts suppliers) might make it worth watching,,

[awabbit6]

A love the supercars but I'm getting bored with the cars becoming more and more alike in terms of engineering. A few more manufacturers is exactly what is needed to make it more interesting.



just make them understeer a bit

Not if they are set up correctly. My Datto 1600 had a little bit of toe out on the rear which gave it a form of passive 4-wheel steer as it leaned into a corner. When the outside rear loaded up it pulled the rear around beautifully. There was never any hint of understeer.

[OrangeZXr10R]

Isn't the Aussie built Ford supposed to be discontinued and a "generic" American built one used world wide ?
Mercedes might as well join the V8 comp.

[Slunnie]

At last the organisers will allow the class to step into the Yr2000.

They were forced into this by Fords indecision on the continuation of a RWD platform. Thats fine if they want to provide a control formula, but at least let other players work to that formula rather than making it a Ford/Holden formula. The construction of the vehicles is irrelevant anyway, I mean from the start the local V8 wasn't suitable so they imported from the Ford parts bin, and the Holden's were rebirthed into a new shape. None of them even come from the factory with live rear axles or 5 litre V8's anyway! They dismissed the Magna RWD V8.

Hopefully V8 Supercars will come of age. They also did need to revise the old motor rules. Its a bit embarrassing when you can buy road cars that have more power from the factory.

[pop058]

V8 Supa-Cars are Ford and Holden only. It would take a whole re-vamp of the series and totally new rules and regs for it to be anything else

In 2008 Toyota wanted to submit an entry and were promptly denied.

It is a shame, the days of "Group C" were the best, Ford's, Holden's, Mazda's, Toyotas, BMW's, Volvo's, land Rovers oh sorry that was Jag's and probably other that I cant think of.

V8 Supa-Cars have made touring car racing boring, bring back multi manufactures for the sake of Australian motor racing.


That is the concept behind the "Car of the Future" (CoF) that is being developed by V8Supercars (headed by Skaife as a matter of interest). The major points are that it will be a V8 and based on the manufacturers chassis. That is, NOT a space frame car with fibreglass silhouette body panels ( eg. NASCAR).

The 2008 Toymota thing probably had a bit to do with them not having (or wanting to develop) a 5lt 2 valves per cylinder pushrod V8 (read dinosaur).

Paul

[Slunnie]

That is the concept behind the "Car of the Future" (CoF) that is being developed by V8Supercars (headed by Skaife as a matter of interest). The major points are that it will be a V8 and based on the manufacturers chassis. That is, NOT a space frame car with fibreglass silhouette body panels ( eg. NASCAR).

The 2008 Toymota thing probably had a bit to do with them not having (or wanting to develop) a 5lt 2 valves per cylinder pushrod V8 (read dinosaur).

Paul
It's not like the Falcon or Commodore come with a 5litre V8 either. Let them choose and run that. They all run a Hollinger gearbox, 9" and non factory suspension anyway.

[MacMan]

Doohan? Superbike?

[pop058]

It's not like the Falcon or Commodore come with a 5litre V8 either. Let them choose and run that. They all run a Hollinger gearbox, 9" and non factory suspension anyway.

Agreed, but they used to in the early days. EB-on for Ford and VK-on for Holden. I don't think Toyota has ever made a pushrod motor. Maybe a Corolla/Corona from the 60's or so.

Paul

[ADMIRAL]

I am prepared to wait and see. The current formula may not be perfect in everyone's eyes, but it is working for the masses. The TV audience and advertising dollars being invested proves the point.

These guys have realised they are in the entertainment business, and unless they put up an appealing package, it will fall over. It is all very well wishing for the old group c days, but ultimately if the teams cannot muster the sponsors because no one is watching TV, we won't have a vibrant national formula.

I watched the second race of the Clipsal yesterday. I would say they have got it pretty well nailed. What a top race.

[V8Ian]

Agreed, but they used to in the early days. EB-on for Ford and VK-on for Holden. I don't think Toyota has ever made a pushrod motor. Maybe a Corolla/Corona from the 60's or so.

Paul
1900 cc pushrod used in early Crown, Tiara, Corona and commercials, also don't forget Toyota's Blueflame copy.

[Slunnie]

I am prepared to wait and see. The current formula may not be perfect in everyone's eyes, but it is working for the masses. The TV audience and advertising dollars being invested proves the point.

These guys have realised they are in the entertainment business, and unless they put up an appealing package, it will fall over. It is all very well wishing for the old group c days, but ultimately if the teams cannot muster the sponsors because no one is watching TV, we won't have a vibrant national formula.

I watched the second race of the Clipsal yesterday. I would say they have got it pretty well nailed. What a top race.
Very true, there has always been criticisms of Australian touring cars. Back in the day up until the V8's it was endless controversy over parity. It'll be very difficult to run the V8 series like they do the WTCC etc as there isn't a bulk of manufacturers making comparable V8 motors like they do with 2 litres. I think the biggest threat to V8 racing at this stage is if Ford drops the RWD platform used in the Falcon. It'll force them to revise the rules.

[scarry]

But wasn't the COF going to reduce costs?

Surely this won't happen if they go to IRS & multi valve engines.

I agree as well the couple of races last weekend were great,much better than a train of cars & not much happening,same leaders,etc.

A bit more rain would have spiced it up even more:D

I think their real worry is,as Slunnie said,what will happen when the Falcon in it's present form is dropped,& possibly the same may eventually happen to the Commodore.

[ADMIRAL]

But wasn't the COF going to reduce costs?

Surely this won't happen if they go to IRS & multi valve engines.

I agree as well the couple of races last weekend were great,much better than a train of cars & not much happening,same leaders,etc.

A bit more rain would have spiced it up even more:D

I think their real worry is,as Slunnie said,what will happen when the Falcon in it's present form is dropped,& possibly the same may eventually happen to the Commodore.

Yes unfortunately, that circumstance may tip the scales for a silhouette formula, ala Nascar. ( ie. V8 Camry ) ....but they have been very good with their parity regulations. As they use what is effectively a generic suspension and drivetrain, it could still be used in a front wheel drive 'Falcon ' body.

I think Ford will have a lot of soulsearching before they drop a RWD platform in Oz. The fate of the Magna should provide good food for thought. Generally accepted as not a bad car,9 in the end ) but front wheel drive is u/s in a tow vehicle, and that automatically drops a fair bit of the market in Oz.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

its gone baby,,

fords ONE CAR policy will see to that,,

[101RRS]

The article is mixing their metaphors - one one hand they are talking touring cars, and on the other Super Cars - these are different series. Super cars are a class that uses the same chassis, and running gear but use either a Ford or Chev engine and bodywork to suit the engine. The only brand specific components at are the engines. if the rules were changed then the only Mercedes component would be a the Merc engine and a merc mockup body shell - everything else would be the same as the Holden and Ford super cars.

Touring Car series is something different where the merc would still be basically a merc.

Garry

[VladTepes]

It'll ruin the popularity of the series and be a massive self defeating excercise.'

Besides what are they gonna prove.. an AMG Merc is better than a Commodore. Shock Horror.

[pop058]

Yes unfortunately, that circumstance may tip the scales for a silhouette formula, ala Nascar. ( ie. V8 Camry ) ....but they have been very good with their parity regulations. As they use what is effectively a generic suspension and drivetrain, it could still be used in a front wheel drive 'Falcon ' body.

I think Ford will have a lot of soulsearching before they drop a RWD platform in Oz. The fate of the Magna should provide good food for thought. Generally accepted as not a bad car,9 in the end ) but front wheel drive is u/s in a tow vehicle, and that automatically drops a fair bit of the market in Oz.

The CoF concept has been made clear that they WILL run a V8 and will NOT run a silhouette formula. Although the blue and red supercars are very similar, the chassis/shell still originates from the parent manufacturer.

Paul

[flagg]

how about this for an idea...

production car racing - like IPRA but:

1) must have been available for sale in the last 2 years
2) classes based upon drive away price
3) regulated safety equipment must be installed (cage, fuel pod etc)
4) tires can be changed (must be available 'off the shelf')
5) cars must be road registered, and arrive under their on power.

NO OTHER MODS :)

I would watch it, and it would actually mean something.

[Sandtoyz]

As far as I'm aware, neither the Ford or Holden body is the same as a road going car. One is shortened, the other lengthened? To make them fit onto the common wheelbase?
I though I read or watched a behind the scenes build up of both, no body panels will fit from the factory, they are all hand made to suit, the vehicles just resemble a road car.

The DTM series is quite interesting, even with only two manufacturers this year.

[pop058]

As far as I'm aware, neither the Ford or Holden body is the same as a road going car. One is shortened, the other lengthened? To make them fit onto the common wheelbase?
I though I read or watched a behind the scenes build up of both, no body panels will fit from the factory, they are all hand made to suit, the vehicles just resemble a road car.

The DTM series is quite interesting, even with only two manufacturers this year.

I agree, the bodies are modified to conform to a spec. Most of which is around the back door area I believe. Slightly shorter rear doors and lower roof lines IIRC.

Paul

[scarry]

On something different,did anyone watch this years Bathurst 12 hour.

The wet spiced things up,but even without it,it was still a great race.

Pity the V8's weren't as interesting as that most of the time.

[pop058]

On something different,did anyone watch this years Bathurst 12 hour.

The wet spiced things up,but even without it,it was still a great race.

Pity the V8's weren't as interesting as that most of the time.

was a bit more interesting that the usual, particularly the "tree" incident.

Paul

[Newbs-IIA]

Bring back touring cars on a big scale!!!!

Mr. Eager says to Mr. Lowndes - "I want you to drive for my Eager's Holden Dealership team" in the ATCC 2011

Here is an SS V8 commodore. Here is a body kit. Here is a couple of mechanics. Here are some tyres & cool rims. Here are all the performance options available from FACTORY for this car all of which have been HOMOLOGATED

GO RACE!

In the opposite camp the same thing happens at Ford. Same thing could happen at Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Nissian, Toyota etc

Catorgorise it into an engine size class e.g. 5.0L or less, naturally aspirated e.g. no turbo 'ricer' skylines & supras or supercharged mercedes

This will hopefully encourage the manufactures to develope the most powerful engine under 5.0L and the best suspension from factory of which they have to sell a certian amount before they can race it (homologation)

Well something along those lines... sounds vaguely familar somehow though... :wasntme:

BRING ON THE NEXT SUPERCAR SCARE!!! :D

[Slunnie]

Thats the production car formula that you've described. That racing was never as big as Group A or V8 supercars. The problem was that there wasn't the close racing or action to provide an exciting spectator sport, something that only parity seems to give. The production cars used to run as a supporting catagory rather than as the main event. Likewise the 12hr has always been second teir to the V8's

Thats not to say that it couldn't be made to work.

[vnx205]

Until the other categories of racing work out how they can manage to have cars going four abreast around a corner with each of them having a chance of coming out in front, they will never be as exciting as the little Aussie Racing Cars. :p

While a lot of us have our own theories about how the formula should be regulated and what would be good for motor sport, nothing will change while the current formula continues to bring in the money it does at present.

Someone suggested that it is all about entertainment. I suspect that is partly true, but it is really about business. If it makes money, it is good. If it doesn't, it will be changed.

I assume the current regulations are allowing the sport to bring in enough money to keep the accountants happy. They are interested in what is good for the bottom line, not what is good for motor sport.

[Slunnie]

Thats also an issue that needs to be looked at from the tracks perspective - designing tracks that promote passing opportunities.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Its the (american)Ford bean counters that will ultimately change what we see on TV.

[ramblingboy42]

just wondering if I saw/heard correctly that Mercedes-Benz and BMW have applied to enter V8 Supercars and that there was also a third un-named manufacturer wanted in as well. I'm sure those words came from Tony Cochrane himself (I stand corrected if I'm wrong here) and possibly come into effect in 2 years . I believe the time scale allows all manufacturers to ramp up to the new specs. I believe it will become a fully international series from that point on. Its all about $$$$$$$$ people. When this takes place maybe the proper Australian Touring Car Championship can come to the fore again.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Isn't the Aussie built Ford supposed to be discontinued and a "generic" American built one used world wide ?
<SNIP>Which one will that be?

The Ford LTD Crown Victoria has been discontinued so we'll be seeing Ford Taurus front wheel drive 3.5L V6 ecoboost engined things replacing the Falcons in the V8 Supercars series WOW I'll be watching that. Not!