And NOW ... for the towball recovery knobs ..

[Fluids]

... you can go to Ebay and get this !! :eek: :eek: :o:o

REVOLUTIONARY TOW BALL RECOVERY BOW SHACKLE 4.75 TON - eBay 4x4 Accessories, Exterior, Car Parts, Accessories, Cars, Bikes, Boats. (end time 19-Mar-10 10:32:46 AEDST) (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/REVOLUTIONARY-TOW-BALL-RECOVERY-BOW-SHACKLE-4-75-TON_W0QQitemZ390168673806QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Car _Parts_Accessories?hash=item5ad7dd7e0e)

They reccomend snatch recoveries off the towball using this device because it makes it safer ... ?? :confused: :o :eek: ....

"Finally there is a safe and easy way to recovery our bogged vehicle using your existing rated tow ball"

Kev..

[stig0000]

there will be tow points for roof racks next,, that will be just as safe;) and strong

[Debacle]

Won't that just turn the towball into a bigger projectile when it snaps off.

I hope they've got good lawyers

[kenleyfred]

This could be quite fun, the shackle and strap can come flying back towards towee, while the hitch can go another.

Double the fun. How can something so stupid be marketed.

Kenley

[d@rk51d3]

So, he reckons a snatch strap will break when used on a towball............ but not on this......... thing?

Must have a towball lodged in his head somewhere.

[Blknight.aus]

While its still a stupid idea....

it will work and do what its supposed to do in keeping the snatch strap attached to the shackle which cant be slid off of the ball while the pin is correctly inserted.

that said.

ITs STILL A STUPID IDEA....

[Bushie]

there will be tow points for roof racks next,, that will be just as safe;) and strong

There already is, I've got 6 rated eye bolts on mine, must be so I can spread the load. :D:D:D



Martyn

[John W]

I know where your comments are coming and I too fail to see it as "essential recovery equipment" but is it any worse than those hitch receiver types. I would suggest any recovery point is dangerous if not inspected every time for rust or loosening.

[Banjo_pluker]

It must be a good idea, roothy does it;)

on a 4wd action video they send out with the mag, ruthy snatched a patrol and 1 tonne of camper trailer and gear up a steep hill off the back of a camper trailer that was attached to his car, it was crazy IMHO

[JohnF]

I always thought that when a scuba diver dives on an ancient wreck and finds old cannon balls, they then sell them all to towball manufacturers to make these into tow balls, as these towballs are so good at putting a neat hole through the windscreen and then lodging in the driver's head. Think that adding this shackle will not prevent this sort of thing happening?

[BMKal]

I know where your comments are coming and I too fail to see it as "essential recovery equipment" but is it any worse than those hitch receiver types. I would suggest any recovery point is dangerous if not inspected every time for rust or loosening.

If you're referring to the "hitch receiver types" shown below, then yes, it is significantly more unsafe than one of these.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://img209.imageshack.us/i/hitch1.jpg/)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://img26.imageshack.us/i/hitch2.jpg/)

You hear of towballs failing and becoming projectiles with frightening regularity, yet have never heard of one of these failing / becoming a projectile.

All that the "new" device shown in this thread does is provide another means of attaching a snatch strap to a towball, rather than simply dropping the eye of the strap over the towball. If anything, this devices increases the risk of injury to people. When the towball fails - and history tells us that they WILL fail, you now have two lumps of metal flying through the air - the towball itself, and the shackle in the end of the snatch strap.

With the hitch type receiver shown above, the only mod that I have made to mine was to have another hole drilled through the billet section at right angles to the original (took it into a local workshop - my pedestal drill aint that good). This allows me to install the device so that the shackle in the end of it can either pivot up & down, or from side to side, depending on the angle of the recovery / conditions at the time. I have used it a number of times without problems.

The safest way though, is to avoid "snatch" recoveries wherever possible. As most of my off roading is on sand, lowering the tyre pressure, shovelling and portable tracks are always the preferred options - "snatching" is a last resort.

[Ausfree]

Well, as a novice I am learning lots, I would have thought "Gee what a good idea", but as I have just read, the bloody thing is dangerous, thanks Fluids for the headsup. I am getting good value out of joining the Forum!!!:) I'm an old bloke and I remember years ago they had a thing called a "Forrest Devil" which was used to pull trees down, I won't go into the mechanics of their use but people where using them far beyond design levels and cables where snapping under the strain and the backlash was killing people. They where subsequently banned!!!:)

[p38arover]

I'm an old bloke and I remember years ago they had a thing called a "Forrest Devil" which was used to pull trees down, I won't go into the mechanics of their use but people where using them far beyond design levels and cables where snapping under the strain and the backlash was killing people. They where subsequently banned!!!:)

Forest Devil: eHeritage - State Library of Tasmania: Record detail (http://eheritage.statelibrary.tas.gov.au/resources/detail.aspx?f=letter%3dF%26page%3d6&TITLE=Forest+Devil+Log+Winch&ID=CHM_00027)

Quite a cunning design and simple in operation.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/03/701.jpg

[weeds]

You hear of towballs failing and becoming projectiles with frightening regularity, yet have never heard of one of these failing / becoming a projectile.

All that the "new" device shown in this thread does is provide another means of attaching a snatch strap to a towball, rather than simply dropping the eye of the strap over the towball. If anything, this devices increases the risk of injury to people. When the towball fails - and history tells us that they WILL fail, you now have two lumps of metal flying through the air - the towball itself, and the shackle in the end of the snatch strap.


are we sure that the tow balls are failing, i always thought it was more what was connected to the towball coming adrift, if towballs failed that regularly wouldn't they become a risk for doing what they are designed for.

[101RRS]

Like most people I do not subscribe to the use of towballs in recovery but has there actually been a properly recorded failure of a correctly fitted, 3.5t rated towball in Australia that meets the AS standard. By the way, I am also not keen on using a tow bar for recovery - a fully loaded 4wd could be up to 3.5t in weight (already the limit of most tow bars) and when any incline and how badly bogged is taken into account, a snatch recovery is likely to exceed the rated load of most tow bars.

If you know of a definite failure of a rated ball put it up. The ones I have checked out have been with non-compliant towballs, incorrectly fitted balls or what was attributed to a ball was actually a failure of the tow bar or fittings - noting that these are normally also rated the same as a 3.5t towball.

Garry

[JLo]

It must be a good idea, roothy does it;)

on a 4wd action video they send out with the mag, ruthy snatched a patrol and 1 tonne of camper trailer and gear up a steep hill off the back of a camper trailer that was attached to his car, it was crazy IMHO

Im no fan of Roothy and he doesn't always practice what he preaches but in that instance he wasn't actually 'snatching' he was helping the other vehicle up the hill and the trailer was on a treg hitch. I think I was more concerned about his dog at Dingo Dell in the national park.

Never the less I don't think that people differentiate and because of that some halfwit will try snatching off the back of a camper trailer because Roofy dunit.

Cheers
JLo

[disco2hse]

It is not the ball that fails but the bolt that goes through the tow bar. I see this thing actually acting as a lever to further increase the likelihood that the bolt might break. But, looking at the shackle, and admitting that it is pretty much impossible to gauge its dimensions from the photo, it does not look sufficiently robust in a snatch operation.

Thoroughly dangerous.

Alan

Oh, and what do they mean by rated tow ball? Rated to tow a trailer of weight x? I thought it is the tow bar that is rated, and that includes the tow ball.

[Ausfree]

Forest Devil: eHeritage - State Library of Tasmania: Record detail (http://eheritage.statelibrary.tas.gov.au/resources/detail.aspx?f=letter%3dF%26page%3d6&TITLE=Forest+Devil+Log+Winch&ID=CHM_00027)

Quite a cunning design and simple in operation.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/03/701.jpg
That looks like an older version of the one I remember ( I'm talking about the 1960's) the one I remember was lever/ratchet operated ( this one looks like it has a ratchet) you dug a hole in the ground as an anchor point and you took a steel cable and slung it around an upper (strong) part of the tree and with the ratchet/lever action you winched the tree over, what you are supposed to do was dig around the bottom of the tree and sever all the roots and pull it over. But what was happening was people being lazy sods wouldn't do enough digging and try to pull the tree over with too many roots not severed and of cause the strain was too much for the steel cable and it would snap and people where being killed!!!:( Much appreciate your efforts in looking that up!!!:)

[BMKal]

are we sure that the tow balls are failing, i always thought it was more what was connected to the towball coming adrift, if towballs failed that regularly wouldn't they become a risk for doing what they are designed for.


If you know of a definite failure of a rated ball put it up.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://img40.imageshack.us/i/towball2.jpg/)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://img185.imageshack.us/i/towball1.jpg/)

Just for starters. ;)

[VladTepes]

BMKal - well do you know of any that have (and this is important) damaged Land Rovers ? :lol2:

[Treads]

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8074/towball2.jpg (http://img40.imageshack.us/i/towball2.jpg/)

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/1586/towball1.jpg (http://img185.imageshack.us/i/towball1.jpg/)

Just for starters. ;)

You win! :eek2:

[Sprint]

gotta give the towball some credit there..... that is one well placed hit!

[BMKal]

BMKal - well do you know of any that have (and this is important) damaged Land Rovers ? :lol2:

No Vlad - can't say that I do.

Although I would hope that the typical Landrover owner has more sense (even though I've seen a couple of Youtube clips recently that unfortunately shatters my confidence somewhat). [bawl]

[d@rk51d3]

gotta give the towball some credit there..... that is one well placed hit!

Not actually a snatch strap incident............... It was thrown from a passing Land Rover.:D

[Ausfree]

Hey, I tell you what, except for being sheered off at the base, the towball looks undamaged. (if it hit a Landy it wouldn't have been so lucky):D:D

[101RRS]

BMkal,

Got any details on that incident - any subsequent official reports on the incident. Was the ball rated? Looks like the ball did not shear as you would expect but has been pulled out in tension and as it bent it has then broke. If that is the case then it highlights one of the reasons why a rated ball could break.

Thanks

Garry

[flagg]

Hey, I tell you what, except for being sheered off at the base, the towball looks undamaged.

except for the damage, its undamaged !! ;):p (sorry, couldn't help myself :wasntme:)

Makes sense though as the top of the thread would most likely be the weakest point as its the thinnest and the thread tap would focus the stress into a single point which would start a tear when you think about the angle of the forces...

..but that is just my high school physics :angel:

[Ausfree]

except for the damage, its undamaged !! ;):p (sorry, couldn't help myself :wasntme:)

Makes sense though as the top of the thread would most likely be the weakest point as its the thinnest and the thread tap would focus the stress into a single point which would start a tear when you think about the angle of the forces...

..but that is just my high school physics :angel: No worries, old son, now let me see,......the ball part of the tow ball is undamaged.....does that help.;):D

[Lotz-A-Landies]

gotta give the towball some credit there..... that is one well placed hit!Wasn't there a case in the NT that hit the news within the last 18 months where the towball went through the glass screen and killed a child. :(

Not something to joke about!

[101RRS]

Wasn't there a case in the NT that hit the news within the last 18 months where the towball went through the glass screen and killed a child. :(

Not something to joke about!

While that was reported as the tow ball, I did see somewhere that it was in fact the tow ball but still connected to the tongue - something failed in the tow bar. Unsubstantiated though.

Garry

[p38arover]

See http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/89426-local-lad-killed-towball.html

[101RRS]

While there is no doubt that the poor kid was hit by the tow ball, it is not clear what bits (if any) from the tow bar where still attached. A police report indicated that a tow bar was rigged up on the car - so without the official reports it is not clear whether the tow ball or something else failed - the result is the same though :(.

Garry

[John W]

I remember looking into this at the time and if my memory is correct the whole tow rig came off its mounts not a ball failure that time.

I have always used "proper"recovery points not tow balls but I suspect that if you have pulled hard enough to rip a ball from the mount then it was probably quite a desperate extraction and they will always be dodgy.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I remember looking into this at the time and if my memory is correct the whole tow rig came off its mounts not a ball failure that time.

I have always used "proper"recovery points not tow balls but I suspect that if you have pulled hard enough to rip a ball from the mount then it was probably quite a desperate extraction and they will always be dodgy.How much of the ball/tow assembly failures are related to instantaneous shock loads far exceeding the capacity of the component?

Haven't most of us seen the tow car back right up the the bogged vehicle "to get a good run-up", have even seen two snatch straps joined end to end to increase the run-up. This just has to be asking for trouble.

[BMKal]

BMkal,

Got any details on that incident - any subsequent official reports on the incident. Was the ball rated? Looks like the ball did not shear as you would expect but has been pulled out in tension and as it bent it has then broke. If that is the case then it highlights one of the reasons why a rated ball could break.

Thanks

Garry

Hi Garry.

No, haven't got any real details on the incident - only hearsay. One report was that the nut on the bottom of the towball may not have been tightened properly at the time. But as said - only hearsay.

Apparently this one was also a towball failure, but again, only hearsay.

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/4822/towball3.jpg (http://img404.imageshack.us/i/towball3.jpg/)

Cheers ......... BM

[Tote]

Accordingto the Australian Standard for towballs a 3500KG towball is tested for 12KN dynamic force sinusoidally applied and 85KN longitudinally . A KN roughly approxmates a Ton of weight.

So, based on that I would have to say that the claimed testing of this device would indeed make it safe to recover from assuming that the towball was rated and in good condition.

I think I would still prefer to feed the strap into the hitch reciever but thats just my preference.

Reference for towball testing AS 4177.2—2004
Australian Standard™
Caravan and light trailer towing
components
Part 2: 50 mm towballs

The standard for towbars is similar except that it has a 35Kn rating for sideways and vertical strength.

The overriding factor is to consider how much stress the recovery is likely to place on equipment.

Regards,
Tote

Regards,
Tote

[disco2hse]

a 3500KG towball is tested for 12KN dynamic force sinusoidally applied and 85KN longitudinally . A KN roughly approxmates a Ton of weight.

Dang. What's them?? :confused:

Sinusoidally, is that something to do with towballs getting snotty with too much weight? Longitudinally, along the length of the car I take it and indicates the sheer strength of the bolt attached to the tow bar??

[Tote]

Dang. What's them?? :confused:

Sinusoidally, is that something to do with towballs getting snotty with too much weight? Longitudinally, along the length of the car I take it and indicates the sheer strength of the bolt attached to the tow bar??

Sine waves are symetrical waves moving around a central axis but basically what they do is pull with a 12 ton weight then push with a 12 ton weight at 35 times a second for 10 minutes, presumably to simulate towing over corrugations or similar.

Regards,
Tote

[Xul]

Im no fan of Roothy and he doesn't always practice what he preaches but in that instance he wasn't actually 'snatching' he was helping the other vehicle up the hill and the trailer was on a treg hitch. I think I was more concerned about his dog at Dingo Dell in the national park.

Never the less I don't think that people differentiate and because of that some halfwit will try snatching off the back of a camper trailer because Roofy dunit.

Cheers
JLo

Was just about to say the same thing when I read that post. There is a big difference in 'snatching' someone and using a strap as a tow rope.

I'm no fan of snatching either but I reckon it's better at the start if you need to statch, to just rock back and forwards for a bit to try and budge it, gradually getting a bit harder on it.

Reality is snatching isn't ideal but it has to be done sometimes.

[disco2hse]

Sine waves are symetrical waves moving around a central axis but basically what they do is pull with a 12 ton weight then push with a 12 ton weight at 35 times a second for 10 minutes, presumably to simulate towing over corrugations or similar.

Regards,
Tote

Oh ok. So that means the amount of force required to rock the ball away from the tow bar while it is attached to the tow bar, but mostly the force would be downward and acting at various angles. I assume also that the force is constant as it is applied.

So, two things I see wrong in this measure when it is applied to the item for sale.

1. When an elastic strap is looped over a tow ball the maximum force can be expected to exceed the bolts' shear strength.

2. Force applied does not conform to a sine wave. Possibly parabolic? I don't know and it would depend on the strap being used. The application of force is not downwards upon the ball and exerted at various angles but rather may be down, lateral, or up and if the latter, then the bolt is most likely to exceed its shear strength with catastrophic results.

Therefooorrrre, this shackle is likely to prevent the strap from coming off the ball but it does not prevent that event which appears to be most likely to cause catastrophic failure of the bolt itself. That is, the shackle cannot prevent upward force being applied to the ball, that angle that appears to be when a bolt can be most easily sheared off or broken.

[BMKal]

Even if towballs are "rated" to handle way more load than might ever be placed on them in a snatch recovery - I would have to question "do we all know what condition our towball / bolt, or more importantly perhaps, the towball / bolt on another vehicle is in ?"

The reason that I ask is that I have had a towball failure of sorts myself - not in a recovery situation, but pulling my camper trailer around Tassie a couple of years ago.

We noticed a "knocking" sound in the rear of the vehicle (a company supplied Prado) when towing our camper down the West Coast of Tassie. When I investigated, we found that the ball had somehow worked loose - the nut was still on it but not tight, and the towball was rattling loose in the hitch. The nut was so tight on the thread that I could not move it with the tools I had, either to tighten or loosen it.

I went into the local garage in Zeehan, where we managed to get the nut off, using large spanner, stilsons and a couple of lengths of pipe over their respective handles. Once off, we found that a section of the thread was completely stripped (about where you would normally expect the nut to be in the "tightened" condition). The towball was replaced with a new one, and we had no further problems.

What caused this, I don't know. We had towed the camper from WA to Tassie and for at least a couple of weeks around Tassie without any problem. Had been on a few dirt roads over the couple of days leading up to the failure, but nothing severe.

What I am suggesting is that, even with a "rated" towball, they have been known to fail under certain conditions, and we should not assume that they are in perfect order in the first place - so much so that I believe that it is potentially dangerous to subject them to the type of loading applied in a snatch recovery, which by any measure, is considerably greater loading than applied during their intended use of towing a trailer. Of course, this applies to any "recovery point" that we might choose to use. How do we really know that a "rated" recovery hook is properly secured (especially on someone else's vehicle) and that the means of securing this hook is in good condition.

I believe that it's a matter of weighing up the risk. In a worst case scenario, what is most likely to fail, and in the event of a failure, what would be the worst and most likely thing to come flying through the air as a projectile aimed at your head. I wouldn't want to "wear" a rated recovery hook or an entire tow hitch either, but somehow I still believe that a flying towball is the greatest risk.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

BM Kal

The rating system can also be suspect. As with a lot of things in life only a small proportion of the production of a component is tested for certification. Often this occurs at the begining of production of the item. As production continues the profit motive may get activated and small changes start to happen, a cheaper grade of steel, quicker processing through hardening, sub-contracting the production out often offshore. So while the item is rated it may well fail when tested. They may never have met standards in the first place.

An example is a small crane device I bought for my trailer. A mate and structural fabrication engineer saw it and bought one for his truck. When he opened the package he checked out the mounting base, which he had not previously seen, he observed the wall thickness and welding of the webs. The immediate reaction was that it could not possibly be rated for the job. He contacted the importer to be told that the only part of the device which was actually rated was the crane part. The mounting for the device was not actually rated even though it was an essential part of the machine, and the foundation to which the supposed capacity of the crane was based.

And these things get through customs! :mad:

[bee utey]

Not withstanding looseness/ overloading factors, I see the towball embedded in the back of the ToyHoota was chromed. Chroming is noted for causing brittleness and I have seen a chromed tow bar tongue snap off. Luckily after 200km of towing a boat it snapped in his driveway, fell off chains and all.
I have only willingly used a black towball and check it for tightness regularly.

[clubagreenie]

Thought I'd do us the service of posting a question about his product since ebay allows us to question the suitability of goods for application. Follows.

This a pathetically rough attempt at I don't know what. So the shackle out rates the strap. WHAT ABOUT THE BALL THATS RATED AT LESS THAN ALL OF IT? WHAT ABOUT THE FACT YOU ARE SHOCK LOADING SOMETHING THAT WAS NEVER DESIGNED TO BE?

**** OFF BACK TO KINDERGARTEN WHERE THIS PLASTICINE PIECE OF CRAP BELONGS.

Lets see what comes back...

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Clubagreenie

I'd be very surprised if you even get a response - you'll just be considered a time-waster. eBay is full of them, vendors know that time-wasters never bid or buy and many don't even read the message.

Sorry about that.

[BMKal]

BM Kal

The rating system can also be suspect. As with a lot of things in life only a small proportion of the production of a component is tested for certification. Often this occurs at the begining of production of the item. As production continues the profit motive may get activated and small changes start to happen, a cheaper grade of steel, quicker processing through hardening, sub-contracting the production out often offshore. So while the item is rated it may well fail when tested. They may never have met standards in the first place.

An example is a small crane device I bought for my trailer. A mate and structural fabrication engineer saw it and bought one for his truck. When he opened the package he checked out the mounting base, which he had not previously seen, he observed the wall thickness and welding of the webs. The immediate reaction was that it could not possibly be rated for the job. He contacted the importer to be told that the only part of the device which was actually rated was the crane part. The mounting for the device was not actually rated even though it was an essential part of the machine, and the foundation to which the supposed capacity of the crane was based.

And these things get through customs! :mad:

Couldn't agree with you more.

In my usual line of work, I see examples almost daily of gear that is supposed to meet certain standards, and falls way short of the mark. On my most recent job (a new, 10+ million tonne per annum iron ore processing plant), all of the electrical components in the switchrooms were imported from Malaysia (as is apparently the majority of this type of equipment these days). The number of "warranty claims" and failures - some of these potentially very dangerous, that we experienced during commissioning was nothing short of scary.

And it's not just the imported gear either - had a lot of issues with components fabricated in Perth by so called "quality assured" Australian companies.

[clubagreenie]

Well aware of this but venting is good

[VladTepes]

I find it astounding that ebay has a no guns policy (they are dangerous apparently) whereas they'll allow this sort of potentially deadly rubbish to be sold every day of the week.

[disco2hse]

I find it astounding that ebay has a no guns policy (they are dangerous apparently) whereas they'll allow this sort of potentially deadly rubbish to be sold every day of the week.

Agreed, but I guess caveat emptor applies. sigh.

[Tote]

Exerpts from the Australian standard on Towballs:
Testing Procedure:

The procedure shall be as follows:
(a) Attach the shank-type towball on the trailer coupling test fixture according to towball
manufacturer or importer’s instructions.
(b) Couple the towball to the simulated coupling body.
NOTE: A coupling body complying with the requirements of AS 4177.3 may be used.
(c) Set up deflection measuring equipment and set all recording devices to zero.
(d) Steadily apply the longitudinal force up to a value not less than 85 kN and maintain
for a minimum of 10 s.
(e) Record static forces and deflections.
(f) Detach the towball from the trailer coupling test fixture and thoroughly inspect for
any permanent deformation, visible exterior deterioration, breakage or retention
failure at the attachment nut.
A5 REPORT
The following shall be reported:
(a) Identification of the towball by type and reference code, i.e. batch number.
(b) The test force.
(c) Amount of total deflection.
AS 4177.2—2004 10
(d) Amount of permanent deflection.
(e) Adverse effects on the towball’s function, visible exterior deterioration, breakage or
retention failure at the attachment nut, if any.
(f) Reference to this test method i.e. AS 4177.2, Appendix A.

Standards are not a guarantee that something won't break, it's all about reducing risk. It's also about proving that a reasonable effort to make a device safe has been made. It's not a guarantee that in a snatch you couldnt break the towball, that would be the operator's responsibility. If a rated towball broke and the operator was sued he could demonstrate that he made an appropriate risk assessment by choosing equipment that was rated to do the task in his opinion.

Suppose that I buy one of these devices and snatch with it and something goes wrong. The vendor has stated that his shackle is tested to a greater breaking strain than a snatch strap. He also states that using a rated towball the towball won't break either. I reckon he's on pretty firm ground based on the tests above.
If I was the defendant I would be looking to prove that the speed with which I did the recovery was a safe one.

As for Ebay refusing his listing I doubt they would have any grounds to do so.

If you dont wish to purchase this piece of equipment because in your opinion it is unsafe, dont, that's your right. ( I won't be as I have a rear recovery point and don't need it).

The statements made above expressing the opinion that the device is weak and not fit for purpose could be considered defamatory, I wouldn't be putting my name to those statements on a public forum.

I have no association with the seller of these goods, the reason I have posted here is that I am interested in the methods that you could use to recover a vehicle. Based on what I have found out in my research on this thread, if I had someone wanting me to recover them with one of these devices I would be happier to use it than attempt a recovery using a recovery point that was rusty or not attached securely. Again I would perform a risk assessment in my head and decide if it was safe before proceeding.

There is no standard for recovery equipment. and probably never will be. The operator has to make an assessment on the method of recovery and deteremine a safe course of action based on the equipment available to them, thats what breaking strengths and safe working loads are for and these only apply to equipment in new contition anyway.

Regards,
Tote

[Blknight.aus]

There is no standard for recovery equipment.

Actually there is....

if there wasnt why would they bother putting ratings on things that get used for recovery?

most of it gets covered in rigging courses once you start doing ground anchors for construction work everything you need to know about setting up recovery gear is covered.

[d@rk51d3]

Should the towball fail in the "approved type of coupling body", It won't catapult through the air and smash your brains out all over your leather seats though.......

Still, as you say: "buyer beware, and use at your own risk."

[adonuff]

If you're referring to the "hitch receiver types" shown below, then yes, it is significantly more unsafe than one of these.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://img209.imageshack.us/i/hitch1.jpg/)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://img26.imageshack.us/i/hitch2.jpg/)

You hear of towballs failing and becoming projectiles with frightening regularity, yet have never heard of one of these failing / becoming a projectile.

All that the "new" device shown in this thread does is provide another means of attaching a snatch strap to a towball, rather than simply dropping the eye of the strap over the towball. If anything, this devices increases the risk of injury to people. When the towball fails - and history tells us that they WILL fail, you now have two lumps of metal flying through the air - the towball itself, and the shackle in the end of the snatch strap.

With the hitch type receiver shown above, the only mod that I have made to mine was to have another hole drilled through the billet section at right angles to the original (took it into a local workshop - my pedestal drill aint that good). This allows me to install the device so that the shackle in the end of it can either pivot up & down, or from side to side, depending on the angle of the recovery / conditions at the time. I have used it a number of times without problems.

The safest way though, is to avoid "snatch" recoveries wherever possible. As most of my off roading is on sand, lowering the tyre pressure, shovelling and portable tracks are always the preferred options - "snatching" is a last resort.

Hi BM Kal

Just wondering about drilling another hole through your recovery hitch? Have you thought about the possibility that removing that much metal from the hitch might seriously compromise the overall strength of the unit? Not exactly sure where you drilled the second hole but I assume it was at right angles to the origional?

Not trying to be clever Just a bit concearned!

Andrew

[BMKal]

Hi BM Kal

Just wondering about drilling another hole through your recovery hitch? Have you thought about the possibility that removing that much metal from the hitch might seriously compromise the overall strength of the unit? Not exactly sure where you drilled the second hole but I assume it was at right angles to the origional?

Not trying to be clever Just a bit concearned!

Andrew

Hi Andrew.

It's a solid steel billet - can't see how drilling another hole through it would have any significant effect on its strength (I did also get an opinion on this from an engineer I work with). Yes - the second hole is drilled at right angles to the original, so that it intersects the original in the centre of the billet.

When you consider the thickness of metal that the pin is passing through (even with a second hole drilled) in comparison to what the pin passes through in the outer body of the hitch, the billet is still much stronger than the outer body of the hitch.

I also noticed the other day that one of the auto accessory stores in Kal is selling these (pretty sure theirs are "Terrain Tamer" brand) with the hole drilled either way (as an option - only one hole in each), so that you can have the "D" shackle either vertical or horizontal pivoting. I've previously only ever seen them drilled only one way, with the shackle pivoting horizontally (as mine was when I bought it).

Cheers .......... BM

[101RRS]

Again, the limiting factor with this setup is the rating of the towbar - usually 3.5T. Is that really enough to use the tow bar as a snatch point for a fully loaded vehicle heavily bogged etc etc. We require rated recovery gear for our shackles, straps etc but seem to ignore the tow bar and as we have found they are also known to fail - seems as much as tow balls.

Garry

[KarlB]

I think you are spot on here Garry. To SAFELY snatch we need a recovery point with at least twice the strength of a standard tow bar. Or two recovery points that will provide that by use of an appropriate bridle. In the past this was achievable by the use of Jate Rings affixed where the recovery eye lashing rings normally go but more recent Defenders do not have that part of the chassis strengthened (like earlier ones) so this is not an option. Has any consideration been given to aftermarket strengthening of the chassis at this point? The welding should be straight forward enough for someone with the appropriate engineering / structural welding expertise.

[Sandtoyz]

Oh, they must be good...
It has the word 'special' used 3 times in one paragraph.
Quote:
"This specially shaped bow shackle is specially designed to fit over and lock into place on all standard size 50mm rated tow balls, without the need for special fittings, brackets straps etc. Once fitted and the pin tightened, there is no way for the strap to dislodge and become a dangerous projectile."

...NOT

[wardy1]

I have always been led to believe that the use of a tow ball in a recovery is an absolute no-no. What is the story with this?
REVOLUTIONARY TOW BALL RECOVERY BOW SHACKLE 4.75 TON - eBay 4x4 Accessories, Exterior, Car Parts, Accessories, Cars, Bikes, Boats. (end time 28-May-10 14:10:58 AEST) (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/REVOLUTIONARY-TOW-BALL-RECOVERY-BOW-SHACKLE-4-75-TON-/300429748431?cmd=ViewItem&pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item45f30228cf)

It says it is rated and fully tested.

Interesting comment in the blurp about bending lynch pins, never done that myself, has anyone else?

[Landy Smurf]

i have used the towball for towing things around but normally you are suppose to put a pin through instead of the tow ball

[weeds]

the no no for recovery's using the tow ball is when chain or straps are placed over the ball as they may come off under load i.e. noting retaining them

i'm guessing this shackle would not come off the tow ball so thats a good thing, i won't be buying one as i have plenty of shackles.........

it takes like a minute to remove a tow ball so a standard shackle can be used....but there is always a market for the lazy/unprepared

[dullbird]

Tried and tested I wonder if that was done on the tow ball or they have only tried and tested the shackle its self.....

[Cap]

WTF!!! The problem is the tow ball, not the shackle? So, if I read this right, you drop the shackle onto the ball and lock in place?? So if the ball threaded shaft snaps, you now have a ball AND a shackle as projectiles? Maybe im reading it wrong :eek:

[Landy Smurf]

seems a bit silly to me but each to there own on my s3 ute i have tow ball and shackle set up

[BigJon]

the no no for recovery's using the tow ball is when chain or straps are placed over the ball as they may come off under load i.e. noting retaining them


Actually it is when the ball fails with the shock load.

[Ausfree]

This topic has been dicussed on this Forum before!!;)

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/89426-local-lad-killed-towball.html

[Fluids]

Try this link ===>>>

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/100999-now-towball-recovery-nobs.html#post1208443

Kev..

[adonuff]

This gets even better, how many people out there are using cheap tow balls that are not rated and proberly do not meet Australian Standards, you can buy them for a few dollars at most of the cheap auto outlets and the Sunday markets are even cheaper.

I have had one shear off just towing a 6x4 trailer load of firewood, it was only a few weeks old and had been used twice, lesson learned!

[Col.Coleman]

Ah Yes,

There are towballs, and there are towballs.

I have a pintle/ball combination. Ball alone is RATED 3.5t. Close the pintle and it is RATED 6t, using the same ball. The ball itself is machined from very high quality steel, not punched out in a die and chromed. I have absolutely no problem attatching a snatch strap to this hitch and closing the pintle to use for recoveries, yet....

Some peanut will inevitably scold me for attatching a strap to a "towball", telling me to use a 4.5t rated hook, with a 3.2t or 4.5t shackle.

A bare ball, especially non rated, is a different story to a heavy vehicle hitch.

CC

[slug_burner]

seen many people with ****y little eye bolts on the front or rear bumper bar rated much lower than a towball yet are happy to use them as recovery points and scold others for using a towball.

[wardy1]

seen many people with p.ssy little eye bolts on the front or rear bumper bar rated much lower than a towball yet are happy to use them as recovery points and scold others for using a towball.

I agree, but that doesn't change the original argument..... Taking into account all the "Newbies" out there (no offence if you are one, welcome!) but many would not know if their towball is rated to 3.5t or not....I reckon most of the towballs out there have come from a supacrap outlet or a servo. Which means that this "Approved" and "RATED" shackle is going to eventually kill someone. Just my opinion.

[nealo]

seen many people with ****y little eye bolts on the front or rear bumper bar rated much lower than a towball yet are happy to use them as recovery points and scold others for using a towball.

Well noted!!!!...A single M16 collared eyebolt is only good for 0.8T in a straight line pull...even less when an equaliser strap is used to join 2 off them on the fron/rear of your vehicle.

2 off M30 eyebolts are really what is required....at 2.1kg each!!!!!

[p38arover]

Threads merged

[Homestar]

I agree, but that doesn't change the original argument..... Taking into account all the "Newbies" out there (no offence if you are one, welcome!) but many would not know if their towball is rated to 3.5t or not....I reckon most of the towballs out there have come from a supacrap outlet or a servo. Which means that this "Approved" and "RATED" shackle is going to eventually kill someone. Just my opinion.

I am a newby - and no offence taken, I have just spent the last half an hour reading this thread. I bought a cheap 'supacrap' towball the other day - thinking it would be fine because it was "Approved" and "Rated". I towed about 2.5 tonnes with it the other day - over 400KM, and am about to go and remove this from the Rangie. Can anybody recommend a good quality towball, and where to get it from? I am about to start buying some recovery gear, but I'll be spending a long time reading up on all of this before doing so, and fitting appropriate recovery points.

Cheers - Gav.

__________________________________________________ ________

I'm not 40 - I'm 18.. with 22 years experience.

[101RRS]

I bought a cheap 'supacrap' towball the other day - thinking it would be fine because it was "Approved" and "Rated". Can anybody recommend a good quality towball, and where to get it from?

Rated towballs (which supercrap sell) will have its rating stamped on the ball. Sometimes it has 3.5T stamped on the flat at the top of the ball or sometimes on the collar.

I think you can assume you ball is rated if it is stamped.

Garry

[crash]

To add to the safety of recovering from using said "towball" as a recovery point, would it not be a safe idea to put another strap eg: tree trunk protector through the eye of said strap attached to said tow ball and have it fastened to somewhere else on the vehicle that in the case of a "tow ball" failure the 2nd strap should minimise the distance that the flying towball would travel??

[robbotd5]

Just tried to look at this thing on ebay, but it has been removed. By the sounds of it I wonder why!!!!?????
Regards
Robbo.

[Banjo_pluker]

Just tried to look at this thing on ebay, but it has been removed. By the sounds of it I wonder why!!!!?????
Regards
Robbo.

I think ARB sell basically the same thing for about $50

[BMKal]

I think ARB sell basically the same thing for about $50

Can't find it in their latest catalogue or on their website. ;)

[Blknight.aus]

To add to the safety of recovering from using said "towball" as a recovery point, would it not be a safe idea to put another strap eg: tree trunk protector through the eye of said strap attached to said tow ball and have it fastened to somewhere else on the vehicle that in the case of a "tow ball" failure the 2nd strap should minimise the distance that the flying towball would travel??

If I think Im going to go near the breaking strain of a bit of the recovery hardware I usually attach a few lenghts of para cord or hootchie cord one a foot long, one 2 foot ling and another 3 foot long, it'll typically break all 3 cords but it tends to absorb the energy in breaking the cords

[Banjo_pluker]

Can't find it in their latest catalogue or on their website. ;)

I saw it at the ARB stand Agquip (local field day) a few weeks ago, I am going to the shop tomorrow so I will try to remember and ask

[isuzurover]

Accordingto the Australian Standard for towballs a 3500KG towball is tested for 12KN dynamic force sinusoidally applied and 85KN longitudinally . A KN roughly approxmates a Ton of weight.

So, based on that I would have to say that the claimed testing of this device would indeed make it safe to recover from assuming that the towball was rated and in good condition.

Nobody seems to have noticed this... but it is WRONG!

To convert from Newtons to kg you divide by 9.81(acceleration due to gravity).

So 1 kN = 1000 N ~ 102 kg = 0.102 Tonnes

According to your post then, tow balls are tested using a dynamic force of ~ 1200 kg / 1.2 T.

So - based on that you may wish to rephrase your 2nd para I have quoted above.

[Tank]

If you're referring to the "hitch receiver types" shown below, then yes, it is significantly more unsafe than one of these.

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/7374/hitch1.jpg (http://img209.imageshack.us/i/hitch1.jpg/)

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1685/hitch2.jpg (http://img26.imageshack.us/i/hitch2.jpg/)

You hear of towballs failing and becoming projectiles with frightening regularity, yet have never heard of one of these failing / becoming a projectile.

All that the "new" device shown in this thread does is provide another means of attaching a snatch strap to a towball, rather than simply dropping the eye of the strap over the towball. If anything, this devices increases the risk of injury to people. When the towball fails - and history tells us that they WILL fail, you now have two lumps of metal flying through the air - the towball itself, and the shackle in the end of the snatch strap.

With the hitch type receiver shown above, the only mod that I have made to mine was to have another hole drilled through the billet section at right angles to the original (took it into a local workshop - my pedestal drill aint that good). This allows me to install the device so that the shackle in the end of it can either pivot up & down, or from side to side, depending on the angle of the recovery / conditions at the time. I have used it a number of times without problems.

The safest way though, is to avoid "snatch" recoveries wherever possible. As most of my off roading is on sand, lowering the tyre pressure, shovelling and portable tracks are always the preferred options - "snatching" is a last resort.
Brian, when pulling or snatching the shackle pin axis should be Vertical, this allows the the shackle to align itself perfectly to the line of pull/snatch, if the load is applied to the shackle when the pin is in it's Horizontal axis and it is not aligned with the direction of pull then you are damaging the shackle and it may fail. Shackles are designed to be loaded in the dead straight ahead line, no other line is permitted or legal, if you pull from the side (and it only needs to be a few degrees off straight) the shackle body will distort and apply undue stress on the pin, causing the pin to be tight to undo. Continued abuse in this manner will eventually cause the failure of the shackle. The only situation you would use the shackle with the pin in the horizontal plane would be if you were pulling up over a 90 degree cliff face as in all other towing snatching activities both vehicles are usually on the same plane or near enough to. You have the best of both worlds with your modified hitch, BTW you can purchase these hitches with the hitch pin hole in the correct axis to allow the shackle pin to be Vertical, Regards Frank.

[BMKal]

Brian, when pulling or snatching the shackle pin axis should be Vertical, this allows the the shackle to align itself perfectly to the line of pull/snatch, if the load is applied to the shackle when the pin is in it's Horizontal axis and it is not aligned with the direction of pull then you are damaging the shackle and it may fail. Shackles are designed to be loaded in the dead straight ahead line, no other line is permitted or legal, if you pull from the side (and it only needs to be a few degrees off straight) the shackle body will distort and apply undue stress on the pin, causing the pin to be tight to undo. Continued abuse in this manner will eventually cause the failure of the shackle. The only situation you would use the shackle with the pin in the horizontal plane would be if you were pulling up over a 90 degree cliff face as in all other towing snatching activities both vehicles are usually on the same plane or near enough to. You have the best of both worlds with your modified hitch, BTW you can purchase these hitches with the hitch pin hole in the correct axis to allow the shackle pin to be Vertical, Regards Frank.

Have been able to buy them with the hitch pin hole in either axis from the "Blue Castle" auto accessory place in Kal for quite a while now Frank - I'm pretty sure they are "Terrain Tamer" brand. Unfortunately, the rest of the accessory places in Kal, including Repco, Supercheap, Auto 1 and Opposite Lock all only seem to carry them with the hitch pin the wrong way.

Mine was originally with the hole the wrong way - I bought it from ARB in Perth. I had a local engineering shop drill the second hole on the opposite axis for me (my little pedestal drill in the shed just aint that good). It was actually an earlier post of yours on the same subject that prompted me to have the second hole drilled. I mentioned what you had posted to a mate of mine who owns one of the larger crane hire businesses in Kal, and he also advised that what you had posted was 100% on the money.

So I do learn things from this forum - doubt if I would have given it a second thought if I hadn't read your earlier post.

[Banjo_pluker]

that is the type I was referring to

[Tote]

Nobody seems to have noticed this... but it is WRONG!

To convert from Newtons to kg you divide by 9.81(acceleration due to gravity).

So 1 kN = 1000 N ~ 102 kg = 0.102 Tonnes

According to your post then, tow balls are tested using a dynamic force of ~ 1200 kg / 1.2 T.

So - based on that you may wish to rephrase your 2nd para I have quoted above.

Not being a maths dude I am quite prepared to believe my calculations are wrong, however the figures came from the Australian standard for towballs and towing equipment( numbers quoted in the original post) and I don't think they would test a towbar rated to 3.5 tonne with a 1200KG load.
If you're bored I'm happy for someone who understands more tham me to explain it.
I'm still not saying that device was a good idea though.
Regards,
Tote

[disco2hse]

To add to the safety of recovering from using said "towball" as a recovery point, would it not be a safe idea to put another strap eg: tree trunk protector through the eye of said strap attached to said tow ball and have it fastened to somewhere else on the vehicle that in the case of a "tow ball" failure the 2nd strap should minimise the distance that the flying towball would travel??

No physicist here but the energy required to snap the tow ball fitting would be expended at the point when the pulling vehicle reaches the point in its acceleration such that the kinetic energy in the snatch strap is equal to its breaking point of the bolt holding the tow ball to the tow bar. In other words, most of the force is transferred at the point where the bolt breaks and once the bolt has snapped all the force that remains in the strap is transferred to recoiling the strap itself. That is, less energy is then used to recoiling the strap than was used to break the bolt, which is why you see it fall to the ground, limp.

However the force that has been transferred to the tow ball and used to break the bolt is then transformed into the momentum of the ball itself. When you see images of tow balls ejected through the rear windows of vehicles with straps attached, it is not the strap that carried the ball but the ball that carried the strap.

Sooo, attaching a secondary strap to another fixing point on the car *might* slow the progress of the errant tow ball but only if it is still snagged on the strap. Otherwise it is all steam ahead for the tow ball, and into someone's head perhaps.

In any event, I'd rather invest in a decent anchor that won't take someone's head off.

It's a theory :angel:

[isuzurover]

Not being a maths dude I am quite prepared to believe my calculations are wrong, however the figures came from the Australian standard for towballs and towing equipment( numbers quoted in the original post) and I don't think they would test a towbar rated to 3.5 tonne with a 1200KG load.
If you're bored I'm happy for someone who understands more tham me to explain it.
I'm still not saying that device was a good idea though.
Regards,
Tote

If you don't believe me, have a read here:
How to Convert Newtons to Kilograms | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/how_5078819_convert-newtons-kilograms.html#ixzz0zG9HVs5E)

Convert newtons to kilograms by dividing the number of newtons by 9.81. One newton equals 0.102 kilograms.


It seems that a towball rated to 3.5 tonne is rated for a TRAILER MASS of 3.5 tonne.

Now - assuming a trailer mass of 3.5 tonne...(You need to understand a bit about engineering and vectors here) only the road would "see" the whole 3.5 tonne. The car and the towball won't have a load that high (unless you were driving up/down a vertical slope. e.g. if you are driving up a 22.5 degree slope, the tow vehicle (and hence tow ball) will have a load of 875kg (1/4 of 3.5T). Most roads you would tow a trailer on don't go above 10-15 degrees.

So a 1.2 tonne cyclical load was probably considered a reasonable test value for the gradiants which a trailer would be towed up.

[Milton477]

My 2 cents worth:

So it seems that tow ball recoveries using a snatch strap are for nobs. Non nobs would insert a proper reciever with a shackle to perform the snatch. Where have these insane snatch forces gone now? Onto thr tow bar itself? Are tow bars rated correctly? What happens when the tow bar comes loose & flies through the air?

I personally refuse to use a snatch strap. While I agree they have their place, I use an 8 ton breaking strain braided nylon rope with an eye at each end. This has sufficient give to aply force gently to the 2 vehicles but does not allow the massive build up of force in a snatch strap.

If you can't recover with the force of the towing vehicle & its traction, then maybe a bit of digging would be in order first. I think that we had all better get used to old fashioned rope before snatch straps are banned because they are just too dangerous in the wrong hands.

Or, don't get stuck!

[Blknight.aus]

However the force that has been transferred to the tow ball and used to break the bolt is then transformed into the momentum of the ball itself. When you see images of tow balls ejected through the rear windows of vehicles with straps attached, it is not the strap that carried the ball but the ball that carried the strap.



not quite... the force that goes into snapping the bolt goes into snapping the bolt.

any leftover engery in the system is then turned into motion of now unrestrained items.

part of the reason snatch recoveries work so well is they allow you to "bank" some energy in the momentum of the vehicle by allowing it to keep moving while the strap "loads up" when the strap breaks all this "banked" energy is withdrawn and the strap+whatever is connected to it that broke free heads for the hills or as is more frequently the case the windshield or rear door of the vehicle that didnt snap its rated recovery point.

[disco2hse]

not quite... the force that goes into snapping the bolt goes into snapping the bolt.

any leftover engery in the system is then turned into motion of now unrestrained items.

part of the reason snatch recoveries work so well is they allow you to "bank" some energy in the momentum of the vehicle by allowing it to keep moving while the strap "loads up" when the strap breaks all this "banked" energy is withdrawn and the strap+whatever is connected to it that broke free heads for the hills or as is more frequently the case the windshield or rear door of the vehicle that didnt snap its rated recovery point.

Erm Sorry, isn't that what I said?

Oh you mean it's the left over energy that gets used to throw the ball. But I would have thought that that amount of energy would be nearly as much as that required to break the bolt. Anyway, starts getting too complicated.

Thanks :)

The principle is clear, which we seem to be agreed on: Don't use a tow ball

[Blknight.aus]

yep lets say that you put 15000kg of energy onto the ball.

the ball is rated for 5000kg but will snap at 10000kg (we know this because this is of course a hypothetical situation)

once youve spent 10000kg of effort snapping the ball you have 5000KG of effort left to go somewhere and do something.

and as a general rule, I agree NO using towballs for recovery

[isuzurover]

yep lets say that you put 15000kg of energy onto the ball.

the ball is rated for 5000kg but will snap at 10000kg (we know this because this is of course a hypothetical situation)

once youve spent 10000kg of effort snapping the ball you have 5000KG of effort left to go somewhere and do something.

and as a general rule, I agree NO using towballs for recovery

Ahh, but Dave, the peak load is the point at which the towball breaks. There is little/no force involved once the towball has broken.

Btw - despite mass and energy being interchangeable according to Albert, it is not a standard unit of measure ;)



However the force that has been transferred to the tow ball and used to break the bolt is then transformed into the momentum of the ball itself. When you see images of tow balls ejected through the rear windows of vehicles with straps attached, it is not the strap that carried the ball but the ball that carried the strap.


This is all largely correct - it is a momentum issue - which is also why synthetic winch rope is safer than wire when it breaks.


(not that I should help you out after you unjustly called me xenophobic in another thread...)

[Blknight.aus]

well spotted but in the event of a snatch recovery you can have more energy stored in the system than is delivered at the moment of breaking.

yes I know, it was a lousy word up and one that in terms of pure technical accuracy deserves to be shot down. However the premise of it holds up when you start including elasticity and force over time.

[disco2hse]

(not that I should help you out after you unjustly called me xwnophobic in another thread...)

ouch :p

[p38arover]

(not that I should help you out after you unjustly called me xwnophobic in another thread...)

Please explain. :angel:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/09/1272.jpg

[disco2hse]

Please explain. :angel:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/09/1272.jpg

Don't worry about it Ron. Things that are best left in the past. :)

[isuzurover]

Please explain. :angel:


Typo - fixed now.

[bob10]

I have to say I tend to agree. Could you tell where you picked up your rope? Also , could you please tell what long range tank you have, i would like to do same. Cheers,
Bob10

[p38arover]

Is this the towball shackle mentioned at the start (the original link is too old to be on eBay now)?

[101RRS]

Oh no Ron :o - in your continuing attempt to get 18,000 posts :D you have started another round (for about the 10th time) on the pros and cons of tow ball snatches.

garry

[p38arover]

I'm aiming for 20K, Garry. :D

[disco2hse]

Oh no Ron :o - in your continuing attempt to get 18,000 posts :D you have started another round (for about the 10th time) on the pros and cons of tow ball snatches.

garry

:bangin:



:p:D

[Tote]

Yep, That was the device..........

Regards,
Tote