Should High Speed pursuits be called off?

[drivesafe]

After yesterdays stuff-up in Perth, should high speed pursuits be called off or should the police have far greater powers to bring these nutters and the joyrides to an end irrespective of how far they are chased or how dangerous the chase is.

I personally think the police should be given open slather, this crap of calling off high speed pursuits because it endangers the public actually causes far greater dangers.

The scum bags that have these joyrides know that the more dangerous they drive, the less likely the police will continue the pursuit.

Not only does the official mentality make the existing chase more dangerous but it tells any half-wit seeing these events that it’s far more favourable to them to be dangerous and that there will be even more pursuits and far more events that will endanger the public.

Your opinions?

[digger]

Bring in the type of penalties they get in the US. They consider driving at speed/manner dangerous to avoid Police etc equivilent (<-- spell?) to attempt murder, you travel at speed you get so much time, you avoid police add so much time, and on it goes, it means that 75% of chases dont happen....on the down side when they do go off, they go off big!

there are huge amounts of pros/cons for this one....

digger

[Lotz-A-Landies]

They should be called off unless they are filmed and we can watch them on TV shows like "Motorway Patrol", "Cops" or "Road Wars" etc. :twisted:

The big problem is that it is usually the other motorist who is not involved in the chase that gets killed. Then it's the Police who have the chain of responsibility.

[cartm58]

opposite in fact they should be authorised to crash the vehicle by chased or using the tyre deflators across the road or even allowing police sniper be authorised to shoot to kill driver from helicopter

[MickS]

In NSW there are strict guidelines...Safe Driver policy etc...if the offending vehicle crosses to the wrong side of the road for instance...pursuit terminated.

There are 2 sides to the story...is the car being taken for a "joy ride" (hate that term) i.e. it's been stolen? Or is it being driven by an axe wielding murderer hell bent on causing more carnage (as an example)? The cost to the community either way is high, be it through increased insurance costs, a grindingly slow judicial system etc etc.

Police vehicles are categorised in so far as how they are able to respond in relation to urgent duty..a fully marked highway patrol car as opposed to an unmarked holden rodeo for instance.

Similarly, the drivers of those vehicles are certified in terms of how they can respond. Gold, silver bronze.

To be honest, given the quality of the police I have seen driving the marked milk truck rodeos on urgent duty runs, I'd be very concerned if they were chasing a "joy rider". Especially if I was walking along the footpath nearby at the time with my kids.

Police are relying more and more on forensic procedures to catch these clowns, and thus the pursuit policies tend to reflect that.

Shooting at motor vehicles is not an option...shoot the driver (who could be a hostage - see Spit Bridge seige many moons ago) you have an out of control car. Shoot the tyres? Good luck..police struggle to shoot a paper target at 20 metres let alone a car travelling in excess of 100 kph...PIT manouvre? Our road network does not support that, nor does the government.

Road spikes? Already in use here, yet arseholes still manage to avoid them and murder the officer who laid them out (RIP Jim Affleck)...

I think motor vehicle manufacturers have a greater responsibility in relation to car theft, yet we know that will never happen. They are in bed with the insurance companies, oil companies blah blah blah...

[clean32]

A bit like having a policy of not paying ransoms, the kidnapping still happens you just end up with more body’s.

Any time there is a chase, a call has to be made. unfortunately it will a choice of trying to decide which is the lesser evil.

The cops cant win on this one, they will be crucified either way, for letting the crim drive away or for being responsible for damage to property or death.

however if there was a chase and a cop unfortunately runs over and kills a 3 year old kid, I would bet a bundle of cash against a bucket of turd that the original poster would be up in arms about that.

There is another alternative that is commonly practiced around the world.
permanent road blocks. Say like on the motor way, 4 lanes are blocked off and each car has to slow to a crawl to drive past a pill box while being tracked by what ever is the local brand of GPMG. Place these blocks on all roads though out a city in a grid like fashion so that no vehicle can move from one section to another with out having to go though a check point. Even better designing the roads so that they have these bottle necks. The other advantage is that it results in such congestion that no one can speed any way. This has other benefits such as increased use of public transport, reduced fuel consumption. And reduced crime (hard for a bank robber to get away.) In addition with such slow moving vehicles the cops themselves to not need vehicles. Think of a police force in 1400cc cars or 125cc motor bikes and the cash savings there. besides to demonstrate to the public you just issue the cops with military type assault weapons. This demonstrates to the public that the pollies support the cops and it also means that that the cops don’t have to move much to stop an offender. Like jumping a red light or over taking on a sold white line or even putting a wheel on the foot path, the cops can just give you a bit of a hosing down.

I think that’s a much better solution than having a couple of cars doing 160 in a 60 zone. Don’t you?

Digger, higher penalties tend to lead to more resistance to stopping thus more chases.

[MickS]

Look at it this way...there wouldn't be one person on the forum who hasn't had a huge argument with their girlfriend/boyfriend/wife/husband...then jumped in their car and taken their frustration out on the accelerator. Now think about that time for a moment...recall honestly how little control you had over your emotions/actions...now multiply that 100 hundred fold...even 1000 fold...and you might get close to how a drug/alcohol/hanging for a fix affected car thief/rapist/recent parolee might be feeling when he sees the cops in the rear view mirror. Zero control..and then the police engage, they are the ones who not only have to control the crook, but themselves, and the entire road related environment they are operating in at that time..then go and sit in the box at coroners court to explain their actions 2 or 3 years later..been there done that....and that cop could be a pimply 20 year old...feeling nervous lol!!!!

[digger]

as stated "when they do go off,they go off big" but what your saying about the "higher penalties tend to lead to more resistance to stopping thus more chases." has been proven wrong..

The penalties (when severe) deter a very large number of the smaller chases... But your statement rings true in the more serious matters where they will drive even worse as they have more to lose.

MICKS has got it fairly well hit...

australia does not allow or endorse the PITT manouvre..it is very dangerous to bystanders/nearby houses/the offenders/the police... taking a speeding vehicle and deliberately making it move to a situation where it is out of control is asking for problems... also to do it with some safety the police vehicle needs a full chassis... so thats the end of that...


lots of people are coming up with ideas on what to do to end these chases

one such spot is here High Speed Chases (http://www.ideaconnection.com/solutions/352-High-Speed-Chases.html)

but in a lot of cases the speeds involved,the possibility of innicent passengers etc isnt taken into account...

road spikes are in good use, BUT you need a free patrol with spikes (not all have them) to be in a safe situation (this is safe for motorists - not for the copper unfortunately) and in front of where the offending veh is, and then due to inherent danger of deflating steer tyres etc at speed, they wont be used at higher speeds, nor will they be used on motor bikes..

lots of ideas including a new one apparently being trialled here - shooting a gps tracker into the offending vehicle....dont get me started on that..

shooting a revolving tyre is almost impossible, movie stuff really, especially with a handgun, and shooting the engine block is a joke, you need to hit a few critical spots or theyll keep going...

(we tested this theory with a 200B once, (on a range!) and took bits out of the block, and it kept going, it kept going until the coil etc copped one blowing carby off!)

I remember being involved in a chase that went from PORT AUGUSTA into ADELAIDE CBD, back out , up the freeway and on coming back down, stopped and arrested!! @400+ k chase, (then 3.5hrs home!)


in the long run, the police are deemed responsible if the offnder being chased hits someone or crashes themselves as now its considered as "being in custody"!! (dont get me started)

Now days not knowing whos coming etc, risk of innocent death/injuries weighs heavily in my decisions now, along with skills displayed by the idiot... sorry offening driver...if he looks like a bad driver, also higher risk of accident etc...innocent drivers dont hear the sirens due to better car buiLds or too much doof doof so no pre warning like we used to get..


no matter what happens, it'll keep happening.

hence why when it does and theyre caught, slam them hard!

[Tank]

I reckon cops should be issued with RPG's, how many car thieves are going to try and outrun a Rocket Propelled Grenade, Regards Frank.

[Basil135]

For my money, the only safe way they can stop pursuits is if there is a helicopter available.

The old "eye in the sky" means that the road patrols don't need to be so close to the alleged offender, and thus, reduce the tenancy to drive like an idiot.

Of course, for this to happen, the police need more choppers than they have, but even the small squirrels would suit this purpose.

Besides, I have seen plenty of movies where the cops have shot out the tyres or engine of a moving car from a chopper, usually traveling at very high speed, and it always stops the car... And if it is the movies, it must be true. Anyway, Batman said so.... So there...:p

[p38arover]

It won't be long before it will be mandatory for all new vehicles to have GPS tracking and provision for remote shut-down of the engine along with event data recording for downloading of vehicle speed, engine rpm, brake applications, etc., after an accident/incident.

The recent problems with Toyota in the USA will see the latter forced upon car makers selling into the USA.

The cost of implementing this will be very low when done for every vehicle.

[Tombie]

I reckon cops should be issued with RPG's, how many car thieves are going to try and outrun a Rocket Propelled Grenade, Regards Frank.

Was thinking the same thing :angel:

[lardy]

I think it's about time that the police had apache helicopters with all the technology that they have they can take out someone from a couple of miles away.
Bearing in mind the cost of the ballistics and technology in the missiles they can out way the cost by taking the time served in jail(estimated crime versus time ratio) at about $64,000 per person a year (hopefully there would be more than one offender in the vehicle making it more cost effective)
Or alternativley when we have no conflicts to police we could employ the air force to do this work so they get some live firing opportunities during peace time allowing them to keep on there game.
It does hack me off thatt hese tossers can kill maim and generally bugger up some innocents persons life, and then cost heaps of cashola to keep them in nick.
Although this gives guarenteed employment to the DCS workers it is not ideal.

[lardy]

Was thinking the same thing :angel:

the down point is RPG are inaccurate for this role

[Basil135]

It won't be long before it will be mandatory for all new vehicles to have GPS tracking and provision for remote shut-down of the engine along with event data recording for downloading of vehicle speed, engine rpm, brake applications, etc., after an accident/incident.

The recent problems with Toyota in the USA will see the latter forced upon car makers selling into the USA.

The cost of implementing this will be very low when done for every vehicle.

This is already available, but the implementation is difficult.

The police dont want to make the call as to when the vehicle is shut down, as the time delay in the command being received & acted upon is too great, and the situation may have changed in that couple of seconds.

Some systems do allow the speed to be limited to about 10 kph whilst still retaining full steering & brake controls, but the systems that shut the car down totally are just too dangerous.

BTW - where I work, we can track cars, trucks etc with full data logging already, and the cost is not that high.

[dobbo]

I reckon cops should be issued with RPG's, how many car thieves are going to try and outrun a Rocket Propelled Grenade, Regards Frank.

How about issuing the cops with some real muscle, a few Max Rockatansky styled attitudes with Interceptors. That would sort out the WRX boys

[p38arover]

Some systems do allow the speed to be limited to about 10 kph whilst still retaining full steering & brake controls, but the systems that shut the car down totally are just too dangerous.

Good point.

I knew they were available. I think they will eventually become mandatory.

[clean32]

I reckon cops should be issued with RPG's, how many car thieves are going to try and outrun a Rocket Propelled Grenade, Regards Frank.

Easy done it a couple of times, they are as they are called a rocket propelled grenade. Not a rocket, guided missile or a big bullet.

Its a bit like the pomms a couple of hundred years ago. Lord the Spanish and French fleet is sailing up the channel, thank you lets finish our golf and would you like to join me for lunch?

[p38arover]

I just saw this: Applying the brakes to killer speed | The Daily Telegraph (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ipromise/applying-the-brakes-to-killer-speed/story-fn55yw9h-1225842073654)

[clean32]

I just saw this: Applying the brakes to killer speed | The Daily Telegraph (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ipromise/applying-the-brakes-to-killer-speed/story-fn55yw9h-1225842073654)

and from your link i found this

Police fury over car chase agony | The Daily Telegraph (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/skye-sassines-law-jail-for-giving-chase-police-fed-up-with-drivers-who-flee/story-e6freuy9-1225816065280)


i had no idea that there were that many chases going on

[carjunkieanon]

Besides, I have seen plenty of movies where the cops have shot out the tyres or engine of a moving car from a chopper, usually traveling at very high speed, and it always stops the car...

Only when they're the 'good' cops. The bad cops always miss the tires of the good cops.

[midal]

On a related subject......the clown who caused so much disruption with the extended car chase and car jackings in Perth yesterday was taken to hospital for attention to his injuries.

He escaped from police this morning and is on the run again......here we go again!!!!

Police have a number of of suburbs closed down, including the SAS barracks at Swanbourne whilst they search for him.

Perfect opportunity to let loose the SAS boys in a search and destroy mission:p

Cheers
Mick

[BMKal]

From what I saw on the news last night, when he dragged the bloke out of the Commodore at the lights and jumped into the thing and took off, there was a copper there with a handgun pointing pretty much straight at the offender's head.

Should have taken the opportunity while he had it - would have saved a lot of grief later on, and nobody would have missed the scum.

No - I don't know the correct answer to the original question either. There are valid arguments for and against every proposal.

But I lean pretty heavily towards SEVERE penalties for those caught, and I think there's merit in the police being issued with MUCH more capable weapons (what are those shoulder launched, heat seeking missile things you see in the movies ?).

[VladTepes]

Agrre with Drivesafe first post and agree with Basil - the police must have a helicopter capability... it's bloody pathetic they haven't considering all the lesbian surfboard collectives and vegetarian whale retreats the government spends money on !

[clean32]

From what I saw on the news last night, when he dragged the bloke out of the Commodore at the lights and jumped into the thing and took off, there was a copper there with a handgun pointing pretty much straight at the offender's head.

Should have taken the opportunity while he had it - would have saved a lot of grief later on, and nobody would have missed the scum.

No - I don't know the correct answer to the original question either. There are valid arguments for and against every proposal.

But I lean pretty heavily towards SEVERE penalties for those caught, and I think there's merit in the police being issued with MUCH more capable weapons (what are those shoulder launched, heat seeking missile things you see in the movies ?).

No - I don't know the correct answer to the original question either.
But you have raised another point, lethal weapons!
You say the cop had a gun pointed at the crim while the crim was stealing a vehicle, as the cop was not under threat IE a gun wasn’t being pointed at him. How could the cop use his weapon? Just shows the failing of guns

Answer? Spray the guy, cop would probably get a face full him self. tazer? Was the crim wearing a jacket? My first thought is bring back the K bar.

But in all honesty i don’t do this sort of work in this environment so i don’t really know

One thing this thread has shown me is that what i thought was a rather rear or uncommon act ( running from the cops) seems to be a very common event, so common that the number of deaths from car chases seen to be quite low in comparison. That either means that car chases is not a dangerous activity ( low risk) or that the cops are quite good at there jobs ( decision making)
personally I think its the latter

[MickS]

Because of the debate over lethal weapons versus non-lethal "weapons", police are now kitted out with more equipment than ever - and that some, in many cases, can carry. On average, the general duty police duty belt weighs 8kg's. On it, you will find:

Pistol (loaded), spare ammunition magazine - possibly 2 depending on duty, handcuffs, OC spray, expandable baton, carrier for the standard baton kept in vehicle, torch ring and torch if required, portable radio clip + portable radio and not to mention the taser, house keys, mobile phone blah blah...

So, when it comes to decision making time, there are now so many options they have to stop and make a choice - a choice which needs to be made in a nano second without hindsight - yet depending upon the outcome - will have to be justified at coroners court where everyone has the benfefit of hindsight and 20/20 vision. They are overwhelmed in the stress of the moment and can, and do, make incorrect choices. I've seen an OC spray can pulled out to load into the pistol....

They can escalate and de-escalate their options as required, but that takes hours upon hours of training and repitition...training that is sorely lacking due to budgets, insufficient resources etc etc.

And remember, to the average person on the street...the cop standing there knows everything - a veritable cornucopia of information- has had the best training and is trained to respond and react in a robotic fashion. But bear in mind, that cop might be on his/her first shift, and when it all starts to turn to ****, is on the first bus out of there...have seen that happen too lol

[willem]

From what I saw on the news last night, when he dragged the bloke out of the Commodore at the lights and jumped into the thing and took off, there was a copper there with a handgun pointing pretty much straight at the offender's head.

Should have taken the opportunity while he had it - would have saved a lot of grief later on, and nobody would have missed the scum.

No - I don't know the correct answer to the original question either. There are valid arguments for and against every proposal.

But I lean pretty heavily towards SEVERE penalties for those caught, and I think there's merit in the police being issued with MUCH more capable weapons (what are those shoulder launched, heat seeking missile things you see in the movies ?).

That you do not know, and you are almost certainly wrong. They may be a drug crazed twit, but they are still members of families. Maybe good families that are distraught at the way their son/ daughter is living. Who care for them and fret over them and pray for them daily. They are still human beings.

This is not a plea to go easy on them when they are caught. They should be dealt with properly and receive proper sentencing for what they have done. I do not support leniency for those who deliberately put others at risk. But they are still people ...

Its when we forget this that we start to talk about things like RPGs. As much as they may be doing wrong, they are still human beings with mums and dads and brothers and sisters.

Willem

[midal]

Because of the debate over lethal weapons versus non-lethal "weapons", police are now kitted out with more equipment than ever - and that some, in many cases, can carry. On average, the general duty police duty belt weighs 8kg's. On it, you will find:

Pistol (loaded), spare ammunition magazine - possibly 2 depending on duty, handcuffs, OC spray, expandable baton, carrier for the standard baton kept in vehicle, torch ring and torch if required, portable radio clip + portable radio and not to mention the taser, house keys, mobile phone blah blah...

So, when it comes to decision making time, there are now so many options they have to stop and make a choice - a choice which needs to be made in a nano second without hindsight - yet depending upon the outcome - will have to be justified at coroners court where everyone has the benfefit of hindsight and 20/20 vision. They are overwhelmed in the stress of the moment and can, and do, make incorrect choices. I've seen an OC spray can pulled out to load into the pistol....

They can escalate and de-escalate their options as required, but that takes hours upon hours of training and repitition...training that is sorely lacking due to budgets, insufficient resources etc etc.

And remember, to the average person on the street...the cop standing there knows everything - a veritable cornucopia of information- has had the best training and is trained to respond and react in a robotic fashion. But bear in mind, that cop might be on his/her first shift, and when it all starts to turn to ****, is on the first bus out of there...have seen that happen too lol

Whilst I agree in general with what you say, and of course allowances must be made for the individual's state of mind/performance at the time, there are steps to minimise mistakes such as the one I have highlighted in your post.

Having experience myself in related matters, both in training and the operational side, our belt equipment was designed in such a way so "lethal force" equipment was on one side (subject to left/right handed operators) and non lethal equipment was on the opposite side......the variety of sundry equipment was spaced out of the way as much as is possible, eg. cuffs directly to the rear. When wearing the gear it very quickly becomes second nature to be aware of where the particular article is. There is also the matter of specially designed vests to hold certain articles thereby reducing the weight of the belt which holds too much heavy equipment (in my opinion). I am unaware of what the general duties police officer in various states has to contend with these days, but hopefully for their sake there is some type of equipment organisation as above that will assist them in what I'm sure we all agree is an extremely dangerous occupation.

No criticisms intended in regard to your post, simply pointing out some options. And yes, nobody really knows how they will react until the time comes, and by then it is really to too late to stop and think about it.

Cheers
Mick

[MickS]

Whilst I agree in general with what you say, and of course allowances must be made for the individual's state of mind/performance at the time, there are steps to minimise mistakes such as the one I have highlighted in your post.

Having experience myself in related matters, both in training and the operational side, our belt equipment was designed in such a way so "lethal force" equipment was on one side (subject to left/right handed operators) and non lethal equipment was on the opposite side......the variety of sundry equipment was spaced out of the way as much as is possible, eg. cuffs directly to the rear. When wearing the gear it very quickly becomes second nature to be aware of where the particular article is. There is also the matter of specially designed vests to hold certain articles thereby reducing the weight of the belt which holds too much heavy equipment (in my opinion). I am unaware of what the general duties police officer in various states has to contend with these days, but hopefully for their sake there is some type of equipment organisation as above that will assist them in what I'm sure we all agree is an extremely dangerous occupation.

No criticisms intended in regard to your post, simply pointing out some options. And yes, nobody really knows how they will react until the time comes, and by then it is really to too late to stop and think about it.

Cheers
Mick

Agree Mick...have told many how to set their belt up correctly...only to see it changed back because ... "owww, that long thingy keeps sticking me in the ribs and it hurts.." and "i broke a nail putting the bullet thingys in the whatsee macallit.." :Rolling: This is true, believe me.

They ultimately leave stuff off and in their locker for the sake of comfort rather than safety. Next to the covert bullet resistant vest they screamed for and wanted, but don't wear. And when they need the overt BRV, it's under milk crates of folders, alcometers and god knows what else in the boot.

Love seeing bullet proof inspectors and above walking down the street to get their donuts and coffee, with no equipment on at all...must instill faith in the shopkeepers they walk past lol

Let's face it, when everyone talks about lethal force, they think firearm. But a well directed blow with a baton/torch/fist can have the same result.

The GAV (general accoutrement vest) is an option, but has its limitations and faults. Plus the fact that in NSW, the only way to get new equipment is for it to be trialled for a year ad infinitum, only to see the trial scrapped and new tenders called for blah blah blah...an absolute circus.

Cynical...afraid so lol

[BMKal]

That you do not know, and you are almost certainly wrong. They may be a drug crazed twit, but they are still members of families. Maybe good families that are distraught at the way their son/ daughter is living. Who care for them and fret over them and pray for them daily. They are still human beings.

This is not a plea to go easy on them when they are caught. They should be dealt with properly and receive proper sentencing for what they have done. I do not support leniency for those who deliberately put others at risk. But they are still people ...

Its when we forget this that we start to talk about things like RPGs. As much as they may be doing wrong, they are still human beings with mums and dads and brothers and sisters.

Willem

Regardless ..........

I would still have no hesitation whatsoever in putting a bullet through this scum's head.

[clean32]

That you do not know, and you are almost certainly wrong. They may be a drug crazed twit, but they are still members of families. Maybe good families that are distraught at the way their son/ daughter is living. Who care for them and fret over them and pray for them daily. They are still human beings.

This is not a plea to go easy on them when they are caught. They should be dealt with properly and receive proper sentencing for what they have done. I do not support leniency for those who deliberately put others at risk. But they are still people ...

Its when we forget this that we start to talk about things like RPGs. As much as they may be doing wrong, they are still human beings with mums and dads and brothers and sisters.

Willem

Cop says stop. The crim decides not to stop. THE CRIM DECIDES. Not the crims family, not the crims victims family, no the cop, the CRIM decides to run, the CRIM decides to take drugs or drink or what ever. And yes I would be sorry for the family just as i am sorry for the family of the crims victims but don’t ask me to be sorry for the crim

But I will feel sorry for the cop who HAS to shoot the crim to protect US

[willem]

Regardless ..........

I would still have no hesitation whatsoever in putting a bullet through this scum's head.

Two questions:


Would you, if you had to explain it to his mum?

Would you, if it was your son or daughter?

They are not scum. They are human beings. Stupid human beings, sometimes evil human beings, but human beings nonetheless.

Willem

[midal]

Well the little gentleman car jack offender in Perth has been recaptured.....caught hiding in a back yard in Swanbourne, gave up without a struggle.

Hmmmm.......wonder how I would feel if in the process of his evasions and armed robberies etc he actually killed one of my kids/loved ones because the big bad cops were not allowed to chase him?

Like life in general, there is no one answer that will please everyone I guess.

Cheers
Mick

[PAT303]

I shoot on a regular basis with the Kalgoorlie and surrounds police force and after seeing what they do I'm against any policeman shooting in public.I don't think there is any one way that will solve the problem,a heavy calibre slug into the engine bay will stop a car but there is to many ''what if this happens'' to really make it useable,following the vehicle by chopper and laying a spike trap up the road would work and to a degree so would the British idea of boxing the vehicle in.In the end it will be a bad upbringing that is the blame,that seems to be a popular excuse. Pat

[MickS]

Sorry Willem...I would have no hesitation with the likes of Martin Bryant, Bilal Skaf and others of their ilk...I have more trouble euthanasing an injured animal....humans have the power of thought..with animals, it's just instinct.

Watch this thread bring out some responses :eek:

[BMKal]

Two questions:


Would you, if you had to explain it to his mum? Yes

Would you, if it was your son or daughter? My son or daughter would not be in this situation in the first place. They have been brought up to know right from wrong, and to respect the lives / safety / property of others.

They are not scum. They are human beings. Stupid human beings, sometimes evil human beings, but human beings nonetheless. They are still scum.

Willem

Sorry Willem - guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[willem]

Sorry Willem...I would have no hesitation with the likes of Martin Bryant, Bilal Skaf and others of their ilk...I have more trouble euthanasing an injured animal....humans have the power of thought..with animals, it's just instinct.

Watch this thread bring out some responses :eek:

We're not talking about guys like Bryant and Skaf - they are cold blooded pre-meditated murderers. We're talking about kids who have gone off the rails doing stupid things. Often kids who are just teenagers 15 or 16 years old. Kids who have made wrong choices, done wrong things. But just kids ...

BMKal, you say that "My son or daughter would not be in this situation in the first place. They have been brought up to know right from wrong, and to respect the lives / safety / property of others."

I have first hand knowledge of kids brought up that way, who have really good parents, and who still go wrong. They have parents who love them, have taught them very well right from wrong. And still the kids go wrong. Their brothers and sisters don't, but they do. Why? I don't know. But it happens.

One thing is for sure. I would never want to front up at your door and tell you that your son or daughter is dead because I just killed him/ her because I was angry they were putting others at risk. That I didn't hesitate because I thought they were scum.

I'm sorry to put it so blunt, mate, but that's what you have said you would do.

Willem

[ramblingboy42]

HA, I reckon...(baaargain) that we should do it like the seppo movies, complete with wiping out about ten other vehicles in the chase with the offending vehicle finally doing the "astro spiral" over the bonnet of the cop car and exploding into flames.:eek: well, you all reckon its pretty good in the movies :p

[lardy]

Two questions:


Would you, if you had to explain it to his mum?

Would you, if it was your son or daughter?

They are not scum. They are human beings. Stupid human beings, sometimes evil human beings, but human beings nonetheless.

Willem

What possible reason is there for a crim NOT to re-offend?
The cops have their hands tied the judiciary have their hands tied in sentencing and the department has too look after drug ****ed retards like they are naughty school kids....now it would not be right to have cops putting rounds into people willy nilly but as these people choose to abstain from living a good life lets build a new colony in the middle of the desert we have a couple going spare, and see how fond they are of wacking **** up their arms then. live outside the rules then live outside society

[Blknight.aus]

helicoptor leading persuit with .50cal 4B1T into the engine block with a heat sensitve laser targeting computer.


no engine, no persuit needed.

[MickS]

I just watched 2012...

and the hadron collider is being ramped up next month so that the big bang will be recreated...that will cleanse all our sins and solve all our problems...:p

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/03/696.jpg

Society has been trying to deal with crooks, thieves, murderers et al for centuries....this country was founded on the penal servitude of others. And they still can't get it right. And they never will.

How is it a cop in WA can be left a virtual vegetable after being king hit by a piece of **** at a brawl, and the **** is found not guilty?

How is it if I commit a fraud (white collar crime), I will have the book thrown at me and be shown the full force of the court, as well as the vaseline (if I'm lucky).....?

The states are ****ed, the judiciary is ****ed, legal aid is ****ed....

[abaddonxi]

That's it!

Get rid of the police cars and issue them all with large hadron colliders; fast enough to end those chases in moments.

[p38arover]

helicoptor leading persuit with .50cal 4B1T into the engine block with a heat sensitve laser targeting computer..

You left out the "D" - 4BD1-T :D

[Sprint]

helicoptor leading persuit with .50cal 4B1T into the engine block with a heat sensitve laser targeting computer.


no engine, no persuit needed.

1: a high speed pursuit....... involving a 4bd1t?????????
2: you seriously think a .50 cal is enough to kill a 4bd1????

you're not going senile on us are you dave?

[BMKal]

One thing is for sure. I would never want to front up at your door and tell you that your son or daughter is dead because I just killed him/ her because I was angry they were putting others at risk. That I didn't hesitate because I thought they were scum.

Rest assured mate you won't have to. I know my kids.

[subasurf]

allowing police sniper be authorised to shoot to kill driver from helicopter

Watching too many movies?

[THE BOOGER]

4b1t is the gun number and coupled with an infrared remote firing postion like the aslav or bushmaster have and ap ammo will stop any car on the road would double the cost of the chopper though. But firing single shot it would outlast 3 or 4 choppers so cost effective:D

[Sprint]

actually, referring to weaponry, 4B1T would read as "4 ball/1 tracer"

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Just to return to sensibility and the topic here. Todays news: Officers hurt as police wagon rolls in crash - ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/03/19/2850335.htm'section=justin)

Just as MickS suggests there are a lot of problems with Police chases and the wrong vehicle is a significant one. Although I'm not suggesting there was a chase nor the the driver of the Holden did anything wrong, apart from the fact he left the scene of an accident.

[THE BOOGER]

Yep your right SPRINT 50 cal is m2hb :)

[drivesafe]

Good one Lotz-A-Landies, and whats the bet he doesn’t serve any real time if at all.

[MickS]

Lower Hunter highway car before a pursuit....

http://www.inthejob.com/Tromac%20%284%29.jpg

Then after pursuit...collided with a coal train...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[MickS]

Caged truck...

http://www.inthejob.com/pi3.jpg

[MickS]

:D

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[MickS]

Newcastle 1944 - Indian....

http://www.inthejob.com/1944%20Police%20Chief%20Newcastle.jpg

[Shonky]

Then after pursuit...collided with a coal train...

http://www.inthejob.com/Tromac%20%287%29.jpg

:eek:

Didn't try to pit manouver the coal train did he? :p


Seriously though - was the bobby alright? :(

[MickS]

Yes, lived.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

:D
http://www.inthejob.com/nswmini.jpg

I remember driving along the Princess Highway adjacent the University at Gwynneville and seeing the biggest Highway Patrol Sergeant I've
ever seen extracting himself from one of these. :eek: At least the Highway Patrol Cooper S models at least.

[Xul]

I remember listening to the radio once, and some guy had the bright idea that every car should be fitted with a TV and video camera which monitors your speed. If you speed to fast the coppers can jump on the camera and tell you to slow down and also remotely disable your car.

I was in tears laughing at the practicalitys of implementing that.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I remember listening to the radio once, and some guy had the bright idea that every car should be fitted with a TV and video camera which monitors your speed. If you speed to fast the coppers can jump on the camera and tell you to slow down and also remotely disable your car.

I was in tears laughing at the practicalitys of implementing that.The technology already exists.

There are already LoJack and other propriety name products that can remotely disable your car.

The SafeTcam system used for trucks already monitors their travel time, it is a simple software change that will allow the system to be extended to all
vehicles. Other traffic cameras could easily be linked to ANPR software and similarly used to monitor elapsed travel times and therefore average speed.

All it needs is a committment and the resolve of Government to enact the legislation to do it.

[JohnF]

Sorry Willem...I would have no hesitation with the likes of Martin Bryant, Bilal Skaf and others of their ilk...I have more trouble euthanasing an injured animal....humans have the power of thought..with animals, it's just instinct.

Watch this thread bring out some responses :eek:

But of course you ignore all the evidence that shows that Martin Byrant was set up as the fall guy for these Murders. For example, the Port Arthur killer got 30 out of 31 head-shot kills firing from his hip, and like all top milatary shooters left the last round in the clip.

But when police came to arrest Martin Bryant, Martin Bryant could not hit even one of them in the shoot out, though many of the police were exposed to Martin Bryant's shots.

Then there is the fact that the breach of his rifle had blown up without injuring his fingers, while breaches blowing up like that cause massive injuries.

Not forgetting the witness who saw the shooter, and also knew Martin Bryant saying that the shooter was definately not Martin Bryant, etc.

When DNA testing first came in DNA tests proved that in the USA one-third of death row inmates were innocent of the crimes that they had been convicted for--see the Lindy Chamberlain/Azaria case for an Australian example.

[VladTepes]

But of course you ignore all the evidence that shows that Martin Byrant was set up as the fall guy for these Murders. For example, the Port Arthur killer got 30 out of 31 head-shot kills firing from his hip, and like all top milatary shooters left the last round in the clip.

But when police came to arrest Martin Bryant, Martin Bryant could not hit even one of them in the shoot out, though many of the police were exposed to Martin Bryant's shots.

Then there is the fact that the breach of his rifle had blown up without injuring his fingers, while breaches blowing up like that cause massive injuries.

Not forgetting the witness who saw the shooter, and also knew Martin Bryant saying that the shooter was definately not Martin Bryant, etc.

When DNA testing first came in DNA tests proved that in the USA one-third of death row inmates were innocent of the crimes that they had been convicted for--see the Lindy Chamberlain/Azaria case for an Australian example.

Oh jeez John.
Another conspiracy theory, that's a complete fabrication and misrepresentation of actual facts.

Stick to worrying about the moon landings eh.

[BMKal]

But of course you ignore all the evidence that shows that Martin Byrant was set up as the fall guy for these Murders. For example, the Port Arthur killer got 30 out of 31 head-shot kills firing from his hip, and like all top milatary shooters left the last round in the clip.

But when police came to arrest Martin Bryant, Martin Bryant could not hit even one of them in the shoot out, though many of the police were exposed to Martin Bryant's shots.

Then there is the fact that the breach of his rifle had blown up without injuring his fingers, while breaches blowing up like that cause massive injuries.

Not forgetting the witness who saw the shooter, and also knew Martin Bryant saying that the shooter was definately not Martin Bryant, etc.

When DNA testing first came in DNA tests proved that in the USA one-third of death row inmates were innocent of the crimes that they had been convicted for--see the Lindy Chamberlain/Azaria case for an Australian example.

WTF ???? :o

Man, what planet are you from ? Think you'd be better off going back to your stupid religious theories (which I haven't bothered to comment on thus far). I personally know a number of people who would take some VERY serious issue with you over this crap you have posted here. :angrylock:

[digger]

Without going back into it, there was another thread years ago that hovers on what a police officer goes thru when the situation calls for a police shooting.

Suffice to say that its not something any Police officer wants to do.

In the side line of police belt, we have M&P40 semi auto (loaded) 1 spare mag, expandable baton, handcuffs (hindging handcuff effective but heavier) h/cuff keys, fleet keys, gloves (disposable in pouch), capsicum spray, radio and mobile telephone. and running rapidly out of room (even with my expanding waist...so I can carry more, you understand!)

We also have ballistic vests in the cars, ours (being country located) have ceramic plates as well as the kevlar, they are heavy!


last of all, chase or not, my no 1 goal is to get home at night safe.

so no PIT manouvre for me, no ramming other cars unless the situation is favourable and a last resort (mind you last time it got a ot of people excited about it being done but stopped what had been a protracted incident)

The police officer who had a firearm out as the idiot forced his way into another car did so, I believe, because there had been reports the male was armed (whether f/arm or knife etc) and taking that shot with public in the background is an incredibly dangerous and last resort move. So unless he was directly threatened (life threatening) I assume he wasnt going to take the shot.

I am on normal patrol duties but also now assist in op safety instruction, trust me, noone shoots one handed if they dont have to, there wont be shots from a moving vehicle nor shots at rolling tyres etc..

Lots of ideas are being introduced in relation to stopping high speed chases, Im sure someone will stagger onto the correct solution one day until then we just proceed to continually assess and reassess the situation during a chase....if we terminate the chase, the offender who drives off into the wide bue yonder continues to drive like an idiot and has a crash and eliminates his dirty gene from the gene pool 5 minutes later, its still dealt with as a death in custody...--there is no winning really!!

my 2c, cheers
digger

JohnF, mate, numerous coroners enquiries, the long drawn out court case, the subsequent investigations by tas and federal police into events and I belive a royal commision, surely you dont allege all these have missed these "facts" you allege? That would be a lot of corrupt people! I believe that there is some footage of bryant moving between buses and a building during the shooting, did he have a twin?.

I am not going to get wound up re this but the situation there was dealt with correctly, and Bryants confession? his fingerprints?

Believing a conspiricy exists is human nature... believing it exisits against all the evidence is maybe dangerous...

[mike 90 RR]

After yesterdays stuff-up in Perth, should high speed pursuits be called off

Your opinions?

My answer is ... YES

As you have heard ..... the Drama has came to a end ... If you keep chasing them, then it adds pressure to the driver's to push themselves harder, and take bigger risks

If you do the sensible thing and stop the (police) chase , Well, it gives the (offender) driver, time to calm down and start thinking of ways to park up & go "underground" ... In time, They are always caught, if not for this offence, then later on for another, sooner or later ...


This particular (offender) person has put the police through some real testing of patience and resources .... It took a couple of days // and now is in custody

But the end result is ... No ones Dead, and nobody has to live with consequences of shooting someone ...
.... or have to live with the guilt of "If only I had .... "

There is always more than 1 way to "skin a cat" (so to speak)


I commend the police on their efforts

Mike

[Xul]

The technology already exists.

There are already LoJack and other propriety name products that can remotely disable your car.

The SafeTcam system used for trucks already monitors their travel time, it is a simple software change that will allow the system to be extended to all
vehicles. Other traffic cameras could easily be linked to ANPR software and similarly used to monitor elapsed travel times and therefore average speed.

All it needs is a committment and the resolve of Government to enact the legislation to do it.

Yeah I know it exists but can you imagine the implications of installing that in EVERY CAR in Australia? It could never happen, plus in older cars it could be very difficult and annoying from a restorers point of view.

You could say 'install it in cars of people known to speed', but as the majority of high speed chases are with stolen cars it would be useless.

I would be 100% against it being in all cars as well as it is just 1 more step closer to becoming the police state that we are heading towards. Sure it wouldn't effect me and in theory it's a very good idea for stopping speeding, it's more the 'idea' of it that I don't like. There are already enough stupid ideas going on; i.e. internet filtering etc. etc. that are turning us this way.

[midal]

But of course you ignore all the evidence that shows that Martin Byrant was set up as the fall guy for these Murders. For example, the Port Arthur killer got 30 out of 31 head-shot kills firing from his hip, and like all top milatary shooters left the last round in the clip.

But when police came to arrest Martin Bryant, Martin Bryant could not hit even one of them in the shoot out, though many of the police were exposed to Martin Bryant's shots.

Then there is the fact that the breach of his rifle had blown up without injuring his fingers, while breaches blowing up like that cause massive injuries.

Not forgetting the witness who saw the shooter, and also knew Martin Bryant saying that the shooter was definately not Martin Bryant, etc.

When DNA testing first came in DNA tests proved that in the USA one-third of death row inmates were innocent of the crimes that they had been convicted for--see the Lindy Chamberlain/Azaria case for an Australian example.

John

Promised myself that I would not do this sort of thing but everyone has their limits.....

IF, and I stress the IF, you really believe what you have written in regard to the Bryant issue and you are not simply doing it to be controversial then you are presenting as someone who has some serious and potentially dangerously unhealthy issues that require attention poste haste.

Cheers
Mick

[JohnF]

Martin Bryant is not an issue I want to get into, and the only thing that concerns me is that an innocent person may have been convicted. In the year 2000 during the Sydney Olympics I was at Miranda Railway station where I met an elderly lady for the first time. I think she was 78. She told me she had a book on Martin Bryant that I must read, and asked me to wait while while she went home to get it, which I reluctantly did. And was a little suprised at the claims of that book.

What I posted was all I intended saying on this matter. but there are literally thousands of websites disscussing this sort of thing such as Port Arthur massacre (http://members.iimetro.com.au/~hubbca/port_arthur.htm) . I did read about the Martin Bryant consprasy in Tweed Heads public Library after Nexus magazine caught my eye, with anatricle on him saying all those in Port Arther were CIA agents the CIA wanted elliminated.

I totally rejected all this Nexus Magazine material as being irrelevant, and do doubt it the Nexus material is factual. If Micks had not mentioned Martin Bryant I would not have mentioned him.

I read eveything, but do not believe all I read.

History shows that very many people have served Life sentances or been executed, before new evidence proved they did not do the crime. Would you like to be next. I would not!!!

Take the Lindy Chamberlain case for example. NT police were sure that she was guilty, and all those who said the case against her was based on fraud were labelled as mad. However the Pommy Forensic pathologist from Britain who testified that it was immpossible for the dingo to have done it, later on had many cases overturned in Britain because much of the evidence he had been giving for years had been proved to be fabricated.

Now do not blaim me for saying that. It is public record.

So we must never assume that a convicted person is guilty, but must also never assume that a person cleared by a Jury is innocent.

[JohnF]

members.iinet.net.au/~jenks/carleen.html - says:--

"Brigadier Ted Serong DSO OBE, the former head of Australian Forces in Vietnam and one of the world’s leading experts on counter-terrorist techniques and their application. In an interview with Frank Robson in the Sydney Morning Herald on 10 April 1999, Brigadier Serong makes it plain that Martin Bryant could not have been responsible for the mass murder at Port Arthur. "There was an almost satanic accuracy to that shooting performance" he says. "Whoever did it is better than I am, and there are not too many people around here better than I am". He continues "Whoever did it had skills way beyond anything that could reasonably be expected of this chap Bryant ... if it was someone of only average skills, there would have been many less killed and many more wounded. It was the astonishing proportion of killed to wounded that made me open my eyes first off." Brigadier Serong believes more than one person was involved and directly infers that the mass murder at Port Arthur was a terrorist action designed to undermine Australian national security. "It was part of a deliberate attempt to disarm the population, but I don’t believe John Howard or his Government were involved. Howard is being led down a track. He doesn’t know where it’s leading, and he doesn’t much care..."

Some readers might consider that as a soldier Brigadier Serong is not qualified to comment on police matters, but they would be wrong. In addition to his acknowledged military achievements he also raised, trained, organised and directed a police force larger than all the police forces in Australia combined. After returning to Australia, as he notes in his book Defence of Australia Analysis: "I did gently but firmly decline a suggestion that I be Victoria’s Chief Commissioner of Police." Brigadier Ted Serong is thus far better qualified to comment on the chain of events at Port Arthur than the current commissioner of the Tasmanian Police Service, who commands a total force of less than one thousand men, none of whom has any knowledge of international terrorism or practical experience of counter-terrorist techniques."

So with a former commander of the Australian forces in Veitman, a man who was offered top police positions saying that Martin Bryant did not kill people at Port Arthur I am not going to say any more or defend myself against those who say that I am insane. I just draw your attention to all the experts.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

<snip>...
So we must never assume that a convicted person is innocent, but must never assume that a person cleared by a Jury is innocent.We are straying off topic here, but just to clarify what courts do.

A criminal court either convicts the defendant, or they find them not guilty.

Being declared "not guilty" is a long way from being declared "innocent".

But I'm guessing this is sort of what John is saying

[JohnF]

Yes that was what I was trying to say, but I do get very frustrated at times in not finding the right words to put across what I do want to say.

I do my best at expressing myself, and do know that best is far from perfect.

[MickS]

But of course you ignore all the evidence that shows that Martin Byrant was set up as the fall guy for these Murders. For example, the Port Arthur killer got 30 out of 31 head-shot kills firing from his hip, and like all top milatary shooters left the last round in the clip.

But when police came to arrest Martin Bryant, Martin Bryant could not hit even one of them in the shoot out, though many of the police were exposed to Martin Bryant's shots.

Then there is the fact that the breach of his rifle had blown up without injuring his fingers, while breaches blowing up like that cause massive injuries.

Not forgetting the witness who saw the shooter, and also knew Martin Bryant saying that the shooter was definately not Martin Bryant, etc.

When DNA testing first came in DNA tests proved that in the USA one-third of death row inmates were innocent of the crimes that they had been convicted for--see the Lindy Chamberlain/Azaria case for an Australian example.

No not at all JohnF...merely quoted him as an example...I know/am aware/read etc all the conspiracy behind Port Arthur...

Replace him with Anita Cobby's killers then...?

[JohnF]

No not at all JohnF...merely quoted him as an example...I know/am aware/read etc all the conspiracy behind Port Arthur...

Replace him with Anita Cobby's killers then...?

Mick I was not trying to dispute you particularly, I was trying to get people never to take things on face value. And this should apply to many things, not just the issue under discussion.

Ihave to get off the net now so will not be able to continue this further until at least Monday.

M intention was not to hijack this thread, but when people call me insane, etc. I had to answer. And my Answer isto quote a very prominant former member of the services, who backs up what I said, though may be not in details I gave.

I knew what Barry Unsworth said, but did not quote him, as my intention was not to go into whetherthere was a conspiracy or not here. My intention was to say that not all people are right or wrong, so we should not be thinking death penalty, etc.

[FenianEel]

Ihave to get off the net now so will not be able to continue this further until at least Monday.
Spewing!:wasntme:


M intention was not to hijack this thread
That would be a first then :p

[midal]

members.iinet.net.au/~jenks/carleen.html - says:--

"Brigadier Ted Serong DSO OBE, the former head of Australian Forces in Vietnam and one of the world’s leading experts on counter-terrorist techniques and their application. In an interview with Frank Robson in the Sydney Morning Herald on 10 April 1999, Brigadier Serong makes it plain that Martin Bryant could not have been responsible for the mass murder at Port Arthur. "There was an almost satanic accuracy to that shooting performance" he says. "Whoever did it is better than I am, and there are not too many people around here better than I am". He continues "Whoever did it had skills way beyond anything that could reasonably be expected of this chap Bryant ... if it was someone of only average skills, there would have been many less killed and many more wounded. It was the astonishing proportion of killed to wounded that made me open my eyes first off." Brigadier Serong believes more than one person was involved and directly infers that the mass murder at Port Arthur was a terrorist action designed to undermine Australian national security. "It was part of a deliberate attempt to disarm the population, but I don’t believe John Howard or his Government were involved. Howard is being led down a track. He doesn’t know where it’s leading, and he doesn’t much care..."

Some readers might consider that as a soldier Brigadier Serong is not qualified to comment on police matters, but they would be wrong. In addition to his acknowledged military achievements he also raised, trained, organised and directed a police force larger than all the police forces in Australia combined. After returning to Australia, as he notes in his book Defence of Australia Analysis: "I did gently but firmly decline a suggestion that I be Victoria’s Chief Commissioner of Police." Brigadier Ted Serong is thus far better qualified to comment on the chain of events at Port Arthur than the current commissioner of the Tasmanian Police Service, who commands a total force of less than one thousand men, none of whom has any knowledge of international terrorism or practical experience of counter-terrorist techniques."

So with a former commander of the Australian forces in Veitman, a man who was offered top police positions saying that Martin Bryant did not kill people at Port Arthur I am not going to say any more or defend myself against those who say that I am insane. I just draw your attention to all the experts.

I had occassion some years ago (a number of years ago actually) to be involved with a man who as a result of a relationship breakdown had kidnapped his 2 young children, dug a bunker and hidden for some time on the outskirts of Perth. He subsequently killed the children and was apprehended a short time later.

It transpired that this person (I cannot mention his name for various reasons) was an Australian Army Major (decorated) returned from periods of duty in Vietnam.....without going into further detail, I think that demonstrates that simply because someone has previously held such positions it does not make them immune to human frailties. The last time I saw the Major, he was cowering on the floor of a cell in a near vegetative state, far removed from the presence of the decorated senior army officer who had served his country with distinction. With due deference to Brigadier Serong's achievements, his opinion is only one of many and certainly not based on first hand eye witness experience, he was not there at the time of the initial slaughter at the cafe.

The word "expert" that you are fond of using, is a very abused title. Experience in any field does not necessarily bestow expert status on everyone and politically activated appointments are in most cases made for convenience sake.

As for the statement that alludes to the fact that those killed were CIA agents etc..well that speaks for itself and highlights the absolute garbage that consiracy theorists spread around. Even to mention that sort of piffle in your post does harm to your credibility regardless of what your beliefs are. How do you know that relatives or friends of the Pt Arthur victims are not viewing this forum? How must they feel?

You state that "Martin Bryant is not an issue that I want to get into" and yet you persevere with posting.....why raise it in the first place given the circumstances?

I have no doubt that some people have been wrongly convicted for serious crimes, I have seen it close up and there is absolutely no excuse for it at all. I refer to the Button case and similar. But stick to the point, you raised the issue of Bryant and when taken to task on your comments you try to distance yourself from them.

I apologise for the long winded response, and also for the inclusion of some information that I deemed necessary for example's sake.....but for your own sake John, THINK before you post some of these things. I have no wish to continue these issues, and probably should not have started in the first place, it perhaps displays a lack of tolerance on my behalf.

[Ferret]

But of course you ignore all the evidence that shows that Martin Byrant was set up as the fall guy for these Murders. For example, the Port Arthur killer got 30 out of 31 head-shot kills firing from his hip, and like all top milatary shooters left the last round in the clip.

Mate, you spend far too much time in the library. Have you checked out the science fiction section yet. I think you will find the content there more credible.

[Xul]

Nexus Magazine

I personally wouldn't believe a single word from this ridiculous magazine.


Brigadier Ted Serong DSO OBE


Can you find me some proof that this man actually exists and is what he claims to be? So far the only proof of his existence I have seen is a man talking about the book on youtube.

The only way I am going to believe anything is some kind of Peer Reviewed Journal article which has provable facts, not a book which is possibly full of lies.

I probably won't bother reading the book though.

[hodgo]

I reckon cops should be issued with RPG's, how many car thieves are going to try and outrun a Rocket Propelled Grenade, Regards Frank.
================================================== ==

I love your way of thinking I in many way I agree with you It would take out the driver saving big $$$$$$ in court cases, then we have the cost of keeping the offender locked up etc.. some of the expences could recovered by recordind it and selling it around the world to TV net works as Diana said in her post. The cost of equiping every car and training officers to use this equipment would not match the above cost, we would only have a clean up cost from the inpact sight.
I just hope I never in front of one of these chases, If the offender turned left or right the car in front would ware it

[midal]

I personally wouldn't believe a single word from this ridiculous magazine.



Can you find me some proof that this man actually exists and is what he claims to be? So far the only proof of his existence I have seen is a man talking about the book on youtube.

The only way I am going to believe anything is some kind of Peer Reviewed Journal article which has provable facts, not a book which is possibly full of lies.

I probably won't bother reading the book though.

Brigadier Ted Serong certainly existed (now deceased).
He was the sort of person who was outspoken enough to get on the wrong side of his army superiors resulting in a posting to Burma and various out of the way places but he did in fact tackle some serious counter insurgency issues and did well at them.....he was also involved with the American military and made a few enemies there also. He was pretty well decorated for his efforts, but apparently an abrasive and forthright individual.

Check Google, bit of info on him there.

Cheers
Mick

[FenianEel]

He did exist Xul, however as usual, the "facts" in the previous posts are loose and the poster misguided.
He was the first commander of the AATTV (Australian Army Training Team Vietnam), which numbered 30 men at the time, from 1962-1965.

From all accounts he was a very good tactician, leader etc.
He was also apparently well known and very good at blowing his own trumpet, and self promotion.

So, why would he make such comments on Port Arthur?

Maybe because he was known as a bit of a right-wing fanatic.
Probably more so because he was also a member of AUSI freedom scouts - a bunch of "home defender/militia/pretend soldier types", that long since vanished, but were completely opposed to any type of gun control.

Hardly a credible, relevant or independent source to be quoting, given the circumstances. ;)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/01/609.jpg Can we get this thread back on topic.

Gun control and it's aspects should be in their own thread and probably in the On Target (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/target/) section.

[hodgo]

But of course you ignore all the evidence that shows that Martin Byrant was set up as the fall guy for these Murders. For example, the Port Arthur killer got 30 out of 31 head-shot kills firing from his hip, and like all top milatary shooters left the last round in the clip.

But when police came to arrest Martin Bryant, Martin Bryant could not hit even one of them in the shoot out, though many of the police were exposed to Martin Bryant's shots.

Then there is the fact that the breach of his rifle had blown up without injuring his fingers, while breaches blowing up like that cause massive injuries.

Not forgetting the witness who saw the shooter, and also knew Martin Bryant saying that the shooter was definately not Martin Bryant, etc.

When DNA testing first came in DNA tests proved that in the USA one-third of death row inmates were innocent of the crimes that they had been convicted for--see the Lindy Chamberlain/Azaria case for an Australian example.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++

I find it hard to believe that any one can post such a stupid statement
there is NO dought in my mind or my family's mind as to who shoot our cousin at Port Arthur that day they were the old couple that were shot in the cafe, I had kown then all my life and alway thought of then as kind and gentle people and to read stupidity as above sickens me I find it hard to express my anger
This was a case unlike any other in this country and I believe the police and the justice system did there job.BUT
To my way of thinking the police should have shoot him when they had the opportunity that
John F to print some thing like this you must be sick get help please

Hodgo

[MickS]

NSW Police pursuit....


YouTube- NSW Police Car Chase Abuse






Russian Police pursuit...
...and those crazy Russky police letting off steam :eek::Rolling:


YouTube- Russian Police Chase Bad GuyYouTube- Russian Police On The Job

[Bigmark]

Did anyone else see the absolute woos who had his car apparently hijacked from this guy.
He basically got out and ran like a chicken, lock the door or tell him to get stuffed but c'mon- he didnt even put up any resistance. 2 more seconds and the cop would have had him.
Ive watched it many times and its so funny how he jumped out, the crim didnt have a weapon or anything.

[mike 90 RR]

Did anyone else see the absolute woos who had his car apparently hijacked from this guy.

Was that the Toyota ???

[BMKal]

Did anyone else see the absolute woos who had his car apparently hijacked from this guy.
He basically got out and ran like a chicken, lock the door or tell him to get stuffed but c'mon- he didnt even put up any resistance. 2 more seconds and the cop would have had him.
Ive watched it many times and its so funny how he jumped out, the crim didnt have a weapon or anything.

All the reports that I've seen stated that the crim was armed with, and threatening people with, a knife. One of the other victims who this scum tried to get out of his car stated very clearly that he was threatened with a knife, and that the crim used the knife in an attempt to cut through his seatbelt to get him out - the cut seatbelt was shown in the news report.

Yes - in answer to your original question - I thought he jumped quickly too. But - the car appeared to be a VR or VS Dunnydoor, probably without electric windows or central locking, and it all happened pretty quickly. I don't think I'd be so quick to judge.

[Sprint]

the car appeared to be a VR or VS Dunnydoor, probably without electric windows or central locking
all VR-VS had central locking

[mudmouse]

I haven't read all the posts, but have we decided what 'high speed' is?


Helicopters - cost too much and to be effective for this purpose, need to be in the air all day every day. Polair runs between $1300 to $1900 per hour (single and twin engine)..... the beanies crack the ****s when you need a new pair of boots!

Road spikes - the SOPS (Standard Operating Procedures) are so restrictive, as well as requiring 'requested permission' to deploy them, makes it impractical.

Anyway..........

:)

Matt.

[groucho]

Back when you could listen to the scaner about 3 yers ago. Caught a police pursuit in progress starting from the tech collage at the bottom of Mt Ousley.
Policeman calling all the traffic situations. Down cateract Creek the gap was increasing by Bulli tops he lost him. All he could say was "Maroon coupe" Said to the girl on the switch "I cant blow wind up his arse". You could hear the valves bouncing
over the radio. You could tell the officer by his voice that he was absolutly pushing the car to it"s limits. Found out later it was a 2 door mustang with a 454 in it . I don't condone that stuff . But that was the best 10 minute pursuit ever..........

[fraser130]

Yes, absolutely they should be called off.
I don't give a flying bottom burp if a robber, car thief, confused teenager, etc...etc.. manages an escape as long as my daughter, partner, and myself are not put at more risk on the roads.
If risking somebody's death, even if it's the perpetrator's, is warranted, it would want to be a crime I'd be prepared to die for to prevent.
The police don't have the right to put me at risk to apprehend someone else.

There are other ways to catch criminals, they will eventually leave enough evidence to be apprehended.

Fraser

[MickS]

Pursuits get terminated for a number of reasons....some fairly obvious.

What is good to hear is when the police officer calling the pursuit sounds controlled, calm and concise - giving speeds, conditions, locations and updates in a timely and efficient manner - despite travelling at high speed and being a single unit. (Usually highway patrol). It will get terminated as soon as the officer calling the pursuit sounds over the top/excited etc....

You can't put an old head on young shoulders.

[groucho]

That was pretty cool light traffic and he had the situation well under controll
But we were sitting around the fire saying GO Man GO. abt 930 pm so light traffic. small things amuse small minds........

[Bigmark]

All the reports that I've seen stated that the crim was armed with, and threatening people with, a knife. One of the other victims who this scum tried to get out of his car stated very clearly that he was threatened with a knife, and that the crim used the knife in an attempt to cut through his seatbelt to get him out - the cut seatbelt was shown in the news report.

Yes - in answer to your original question - I thought he jumped quickly too. But - the car appeared to be a VR or VS Dunnydoor, probably without electric windows or central locking, and it all happened pretty quickly. I don't think I'd be so quick to judge.

Didnt look like he had a knife or flashed it around- it almost looked like he was jumping before he got there. either way i would have wound my window up or run him down. Now if it was me and i was in my defender, i wouldnt let him take it even if he had a gun- im not insured so it would be cheaper for me to go to hospital under private health than thru replacing my landrover + no-one is taking my baby, no matter what- on another point, lucky he didnt have kids in the car- that would have been a disaster i think.

[groucho]

Being able to listen to the scanner " next door had tow trucks"
Gives you a sobering thought as to how mutch crap and the police have to deal with in your town. Not at all funny . realy............

[drivesafe]

Yes, absolutely they should be called off.
I don't give a flying bottom burp if a robber, car thief, confused teenager, etc...etc.. manages an escape as long as my daughter, partner, and myself are not put at more risk on the roads.

The police don't have the right to put me at risk to apprehend someone else.

So then if they are not caught the first time because it had to be called off the protect the public, what if the second or third time this same scum bag pulls one of his joy rides and kills your Daughter, wife, son, relo, what ever, you’d be the first to scream that the cops should have stopped him the first time.

Your completely correct, the police don’t have the right to put you or anybody else at risk, and leaving this scum out there so they can continually put everybody at risk, time and time again, is in my opinion a failure by the police to protect the innocent

[Lotz-A-Landies]

You know this is an interesting debate.

Back in 1986, something possessed me and I went and worked for the Prisons Medical Service at Long Bay Complex of Prisons (Gaol). Serving their sentences at the time were two young criminals well known around Sydney. One was called "Commodore kid" because his favourite car to steal were turbo commodores the other one was the "Turbo kid" because he didn't care what make he stole as long as it was turbo charged.

Talking to these individuals was enlightening, they didn't consider that what they were doing was wrong "because the vehicles were insured so no one was hurt". They also loved to drive fast and dangerous, being chased by the Police only added to the experience for them. However woe betide you if you stole their ghetto-blaster in prison, they would kill you if they got the chance.

Yes these types of people need to be off the road and away from anywhere they can harm other people, but I am not convinced that Police chasing them is going to find them caught on the first chase nor going to leave us "innocents" uninjured. Forensics and intelligence is likely to be a far better option.

Diana

[drivesafe]

OK this thread has gone in all sorts of directions and off subject and we all have our own opinions, but this is what these forums are about.

One question for someone who can set it up, could someone set up a poll with a few options and we can get a better idea of which way most would like to see this resolved?

[MickS]

You know this is an interesting debate.

Back in 1986, something possessed me and I went and worked for the Prisons Medical Service at Long Bay Complex of Prisons (Gaol). Serving their sentences at the time were two young criminals well known around Sydney. One was called "Commodore kid" because his favourite car to steal were turbo commodores the other one was the "Turbo kid" because he didn't care what make he stole as long as it was turbo charged.

Talking to these individuals was enlightening, they didn't consider that what they were doing was wrong "because the vehicles were insured so no one was hurt". They also loved to drive fast and dangerous, being chased by the Police only added to the experience for them. However woe betide you if you stole their ghetto-blaster in prison, they would kill you if they got the chance.

Yes these types of people need to be off the road and away from anywhere they can harm other people, but I am not convinced that Police chasing them is going to find them caught on the first chase nor going to leave us "innocents" uninjured. Forensics and intelligence is likely to be a far better option.

Diana

Jesus Diana, there's a blast from the past...:Rolling:.. have not heard those names for years, but spent plenty of time chasing them !!!

[ADMIRAL]

Yes, absolutely they should be called off.
I don't give a flying bottom burp if a robber, car thief, confused teenager, etc...etc.. manages an escape as long as my daughter, partner, and myself are not put at more risk on the roads.
If risking somebody's death, even if it's the perpetrator's, is warranted, it would want to be a crime I'd be prepared to die for to prevent.
The police don't have the right to put me at risk to apprehend someone else.

There are other ways to catch criminals, they will eventually leave enough evidence to be apprehended.

Fraser

Yes but how long before anarchy rules on the roads. Once they realise they can do what they like, it will be open slather. I'd would vote to continue the chases. I would rather take my chances with the odd loonie, than have half the under 20 population playing their computer games on the road.

[drivesafe]

Here is a perfect example of either getting tough or playing the pc act to do no more then please the goodie two shoe *******.

John Howard locked the illegal boat people up and chucked the keys away. Result, no more boat people try their luck.

Good ol’ Kevin ‘I sorry’ Rudd softens the rules and tells everybody that this will not encourage the boaties to come.

History now tells us who was right and who is just a lying ******.

The very same thing goes for these scum bags and their chases.

[groucho]

We just had 4 people killed in a hi speed chase in the ACT
last nite. Dammed if we do Dammed if we dont. A tuff call i spose.......

[drifter]

We just had 4 people killed in a hi speed chase in the ACT
last nite. Dammed if we do Dammed if we dont. A tuff call i spose.......

A very sad ending to a pursuit...

[Chucaro]

How the police caught THIS (http://tools.themercury.com.au/stories/41294831-breaking-news.php) P-plater caught travelling at 249km/h in the M5, NSW ?

Regading the 4 killed in the accident it is incredible that the driver did not care about the other people in the car :( :mad:

[groucho]

caught travelling at 249km/h
He wasn't driving a Land Rover then:p

[rockyroad]

If you start terminating chases then every scumbag will be out bragging about how quickly the police gave up on them.

Bring in some real penalties for these idiots.

I would be ****ed if some idiot being chased by the police hurt my family but I would be even more ****ed if they got away.

[George130]

Watching the US ones with trucks and busses I se one simple and effective answere. Treat it as terrorism or a mass murder. 1 Missle will stop the vehicle and the wast of space behind the wheel.

[Panda]

Ah just shoot the lot of them ... don't mind me, had a few beers & some rather extentsive swimming exercise :Rolling::Rolling:It's so good being a happy drunk :Rolling:

[flagg]

How the police caught THIS (http://tools.themercury.com.au/stories/41294831-breaking-news.php) P-plater caught travelling at 249km/h in the M5, NSW ?


Quick, Ban all Holden Sedans!

(oh wait, that argument only applies to Japanese cars...)

[mike 90 RR]

I would be miffed if some idiot being chased by the police hurt my family but I would be even more miffed if they got away.

Prepared to catch em at any cost??? :(
Me thinks you have been watching too many LETHAL WEAPON movie's ...

Mike

[ADMIRAL]

Perhaps we give the police cars a bumper like they have in the states, and they ram them off the road, instead of playing footsie. We tie their hands, and then complain they cannot do the job.

In light of the recent ACT tragedy, I would also like to see a charge reflecting the behaviour and how it is regarded by the community in general. Once you have failed to stop when being chased, and are in charge of a lethal weapon, is it just manslaughter or negligent homicide ?

[Sprint]

Perhaps we give the police cars a bumper like they have in the states, and they ram them off the road, instead of playing footsie.

the bumper extensions on the US police vehicles arent intended for ramming other vehicles off the road, they are intended to be used for pushing disabled vehicles to a safer position off the road

[Hucksta]

I just heard on the news that the driver (scumbag) of the stolen vehicle that smashed into the car and murdered those people in Canberra .... are you ready for this .....

Apparently 10 months ago the dog survived a high speed crash whilst fleeing other police ...... so if this is the case what was this maggot doing out on the street in the first place.

I do hope that the arm chair experts have a go at the Judge who let this cretin out ....... The courts need to have a good long hard look at themselves .......

But as always, the bloody coppers are the easy targets ..... the news has been full of 'the police this' and 'the police that' ...... not much about the crook or the courts ....... disgraceful.

I want to finish with this ..... despite all I have said I feel absolutely devastated that 3 innocent people have been murdered by that filthy thing. I am glad he also lost his life, that may seem harsh to some but bad luck, he got what he deserved. It's just a terrible pity that it took the lives of 3 beautiful people to bring about his final judgement ....

[rmp]

Here is a perfect example of either getting tough or playing the pc act to do no more then please the goodie two shoe *******.

John Howard locked the illegal boat people up and chucked the keys away. Result, no more boat people try their luck.

Good ol’ Kevin ‘I sorry’ Rudd softens the rules and tells everybody that this will not encourage the boaties to come.

History now tells us who was right and who is just a lying ******.

The very same thing goes for these scum bags and their chases.

DS.....the number of boat people in total is very small per year. Therefore, even a small amount extra is a big %. Also, boat people as a % of total visa overstayers arriving by conventional means are small. Finally, the number of boat people varies per year depending on what overseas crisis is in progress. It is a myth that Howard's policies were more effective than Rudd's. The whole issue is dog-whistle politics and if you look at the total cost there are way more important things to wory about such as road safety as we are discussing here.

The boat people thing is a little like shark attacks, it's high-profile and given prominence out of proportion to the problem because it generates good tabloid sales.

I'm not sure what the real boat people problem is, but unfortunately once any issue has high media interest and enters the world of a simplistic ten-second soundbite you can forget in-depth analysis and first-principles fixing and instead suffer whatever works for short-term political expediency.

[rmp]

Yes but how long before anarchy rules on the roads. Once they realise they can do what they like, it will be open slather. I'd would vote to continue the chases. I would rather take my chances with the odd loonie, than have half the under 20 population playing their computer games on the road.

Here's a question.

If you are driving along and the police attempt to pull you over what do you do?

Most of us would pull over and not make a bad situation worse.

But if you are the sort of person who ignores the blue flashing light and accelerates away, then what is the point of a chase? That driver is clearly not going to stop until they crash, or lose the police car.

Or am I wrong and the loon drives around for a few minutes then repents and stops?

In other words, what is the typical end-result of a pursuit?

[JDNSW]

I just heard on the news that the driver (scumbag) of the stolen vehicle that smashed into the car and murdered those people in Canberra .... are you ready for this .....

Apparently 10 months ago the dog survived a high speed crash whilst fleeing other police ...... so if this is the case what was this maggot doing out on the street in the first place.

I do hope that the arm chair experts have a go at the Judge who let this cretin out ....... The courts need to have a good long hard look at themselves .......

But as always, the bloody coppers are the easy targets ..... the news has been full of 'the police this' and 'the police that' ...... not much about the crook or the courts ....... disgraceful.

I want to finish with this ..... despite all I have said I feel absolutely devastated that 3 innocent people have been murdered by that filthy thing. I am glad he also lost his life, that may seem harsh to some but bad luck, he got what he deserved. It's just a terrible pity that it took the lives of 3 beautiful people to bring about his final judgement ....

I understand that he was yet to face court for the previous offence, so the problem is not the judge, but the bail magistrate or perhaps the long delays in the legal system. And on the face of it it seems that anyone with normal intelligence would have learned from the previous experience, and no doubt that is what the bail magistrate would have decided. I think that it would be very unusual for bail to be refused in this sort of case unless the magistrate had reason to expect him to disappear. Although this sort of case perhaps might influence future decisions. The legal system perhaps made the (understandable) assumption that since his licence was suspended, he would not be driving, although since the previous car was also stolen, that is rather naive!

Ultimately, it is, in my view, impossible to credibly assign any blame for the accident on anyone other than the driver of the stolen car. Certainly you can stretch things a bit to blame the manufacturer (or owner) of the stolen car for making it easy to steal, the ACT government for not having a cloverleaf intersection there, the driver of the other car for not seeing him coming, but none of these are at all credible, and certainly no blame can be assigned to the police - you might just as well assign blame to the driver's parents.

Let's see - stolen car; failing to obey a police direction to stop; drove through two red lights; estimated 200kph in an 80 zone; driving without a licence; a toxicology test of the drivers blood could be of interest too - I'd be prepared to lay odds that he was above 0.05, on drugs, or both.

Which raises an interesting question - for all those who maintain that accidents have a single cause, which was the cause of this accident?

John

[rmp]

Ultimately, it is, in my view, impossible to credibly assign any blame for the accident on anyone other than the driver of the stolen car. Certainly you can stretch things a bit to blame the manufacturer (or owner) of the stolen car for making it easy to steal, the ACT government for not having a cloverleaf intersection there, the driver of the other car for not seeing him coming, but none of these are at all credible, and certainly no blame can be assigned to the police - you might just as well assign blame to the driver's parents.


this is exactly what I was going to say for the same reasons.

[WhiteD3]

Which raises an interesting question - for all those who maintain that accidents have a single cause, which was the cause of this accident?

John

John I agree with your post but the things you cite are facts. What was the underlying cause? Stupidity? Selfishness? Lack of self-discipline? Lack of self-respect?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I understand that he ... <snip>
<snip ... Which raises an interesting question - for all those who maintain that accidents have a single cause, which was the cause of this accident?

JohnJohn

I must agree with almost all your comments, except one thing. This incident was no accident, it didn't happen because of an unforeseeable and un-preventable chain of events. It was a crash, it was foreseeable and it was preventable.

Had any number of actions occurred prior to the crash it wouldn't have happened. e.g. the scumbag was in gaol, he wasn't able to steal the car, or he wasn't chased by the Police. If any of these actions and more didn't occur this crash also would not have happened.

[Hucksta]

I understand that he was yet to face court for the previous offence, so the problem is not the judge, but the bail magistrate or perhaps the long delays in the legal system. And on the face of it it seems that anyone with normal intelligence would have learned from the previous experience, and no doubt that is what the bail magistrate would have decided. I think that it would be very unusual for bail to be refused in this sort of case unless the magistrate had reason to expect him to disappear. Although this sort of case perhaps might influence future decisions. The legal system perhaps made the (understandable) assumption that since his licence was suspended, he would not be driving, although since the previous car was also stolen, that is rather naive!

John

John,

Yes, what you say is correct. When I mentioned a Judge i was encompassing magistrates' also as most people don't know the difference. Whether he was bailed by a magi or a bail justice at an out of sessions court is irrelevant, whoever let him out should have to justify why they did that, at present this does not happen. The person who bailed this bloke would have been presented with his priors at the hearing, although I am speculating I would put the house on the fact that he has numerous offences of theft and driving whilst unlicensed so why would anyone believe thathe would obey the law this time and not steal, not drive, not flee ...... all i'm saying is that this happens all the time ... I know it personally ..... it is a joke and something needs to be done .....

Cheers

[rmp]

John

I must agree with almost all your comments, except one thing. This incident was no accident, it didn't happen because of an unforeseeable and un-preventable chain of events. It was a crash, it was foreseeable and it was preventable.

Had any number of actions occurred prior to the crash it wouldn't have happened. e.g. the scumbag was in gaol, he wasn't able to steal the car, or he wasn't chased by the Police. If any of these actions and more didn't occur this crash also would not have happened.

well, *that* crash wouldn't have happened.

Looking at the history it was only going to be a matter of time before he did something stupid. The only question was what, when and the consequences, not if.

[JDNSW]

John I agree with your post but the things you cite are facts. What was the underlying cause? Stupidity? Selfishness? Lack of self-discipline? Lack of self-respect?

My point was, there is, as with any such incident, no single underlying cause. There will be a number of causes which, if absent, would have prevented the crash. Causes should also be separated from blame or responsibility. As I indicated, this must rest squarely with the driver - but as you point out this does not define an underlying cause, because there is not a single such cause, so the search for one is rather pointless.

Some causes will have been more important than others, and some, which could, if different, have completely prevented the accident (such as Canberra Av being a freeway) are not reasonable to have been removed.

John

[JDNSW]

John

I must agree with almost all your comments, except one thing. This incident was no accident, it didn't happen because of an unforeseeable and un-preventable chain of events. It was a crash, it was foreseeable and it was preventable.

Had any number of actions occurred prior to the crash it wouldn't have happened. e.g. the scumbag was in gaol, he wasn't able to steal the car, or he wasn't chased by the Police. If any of these actions and more didn't occur this crash also would not have happened.

We've disagreed on this before - unfortunately attempts to revise the English language to return words to their original meaning are rarely successful, and my use of the word was one that is commonly used, is within the dictionary definitions and does not imply that the event was unforseeable or unpreventable, merely that it was unplanned or unexpected - and I don't think you mean that the driver planned to kill himself or others (although he should certainly have foreseen the probability of this - one wonders again what chemicals were obstructing his thought processes!). I agree that if that had been the case (for example suicide by motor vehicle), the word would have been wrong.

John

[JohnF]

One never knows if the pursuit is after a guy who is going some-where to commit murder, etc., hence the police must catch them. On last nights news a car police were pursuing T-boned another car injuring the grandmother driving it--she may have died, not sure now. The driver and his girlfriend who were trying to out run police were carrying a pistol and knife.

[Beast]

Having worked in emergency services for over twenty-six years, I also don't believe that there is any such animal as a car "accident". They are "crashes" or "collisions" and in most cases there is one single underlying factor or action which, if prevented, will prevent the collision from occuring - in most cases it is driver inattention (which we have probably all been guilty of at one point or another!!!

In this case the proximate cause was the fact that this knucklehead stole a car (for at least the second time). If he hadn't done that, no pursuit - no crash..... second was failing to stop when directed and deciding to drive like a maniac - if he had been a man and taken the lumps for the crimes of stealing a car and driving disqualified and pulled over, no pursuit - no crash......

Those trying to blame the police sicken me. All pursuits could be banned sending the message that if you want to evade capture, just put the foot down - if you are drunk and see an RBT station, or if your a disqualified knucklehead in a stolen vehicle, just speed up - they won't chase you because they ain't allowed too. Who wants to see society descend into that sort of anarchy???

This pursuit lasted all of five minutes and was terminated just prior to the crash when the scumbag ran a red light - the naysayers should wait for the inquest - but the evidence will be pretty damn clear with the radio transcripts and car cameras.

It's also all very well to say let 'em go and find 'em later when you recover the car and get fingerprints / DNA. That would only work if the offender had a record, but in most cases stolen cars are torched and that don't leave much evidence behind. In addition, getting such evidence ain't as easy as it looks on CSI - getting prints is a crap shoot at the best of times....

Anyway, there's my rant - maybe it should have gone in the Soapbox...... :evil:

[rockyroad]

Did anyone see the "outstanding" journalism on A current affair tonight (monday) ? They had an interview with the mother of one of the occupants of the stolen car.

I immediately changed channel as I was disgusted at this fat ugly lump crying to the camera about her poor little angel in the hospital.

Makes me wonder if this centrelink momma will be asking legal aid if she can sue the police.

The only victims were the young family that were killed and the emergency personnel that witnessed the carnage. Hopefully everyone here at least will understand that if the car is ripped apart then the occupants usually are too.

[MickS]

Here is some food for thought....

http://www.polfed.org/risky_business_0310.pdf

In NSW, and I dare say in other states, there is no annual re-accreditation for Police as far as driving is concerned on or in a dedicated training facility.

Yet if something goes wrong, the full weight of safe driver policy at the very least is thrown at them...resulting, in some cases, in de-certification, demotion, transfer...and at the other extreme - gaol.

The interesting thing is that depending on length of service, some police may have gained their driving accreditation on a VK Commodore back in the 80's, yet are now driving around in far more technologically advanced vehicles without ever having being re-accredited.

In a pursuit situation, the police involved especially, and also those monitoring the pursuit, have to consider a ton of factors...the nature of the offence, the conditions at the time (day/night/dry/wet/traffic density/and on and on and on, whilst barking continuous updates on speed/location etc via the radio) and the longer it goes, the degree of danger not only to those involved in the pursuit but other road users/pedestrians, increases exponentially.

At the other end of the spectrum is the peanut in the vehicle being pursued. Nil training, nil policy, nil care factor.

Yet it will be the cop that gets drawn, quartered and hung when it all goes pear shaped.

[ADMIRAL]

No easy answer or it would have been acted on already.

Once the offender decides to take his chances in outrunning those enforcing the law of the land, we are faced with the potential for serious harm. Starting down that path 1 second before or later could have fatal consequences.

Well before the point of that choice, is that your cause ? Whether it is attitude to people in positions of power, his upbringing, or drug induced thrill seeking, we have a social issue determining life and death. All the other whatif's and variables are just part of the game of chance, once that first wrong choice is made.

A society has to remove members not prepared to live by the rules created to protect the majority. As a part of that society we help fashion those rules, and influence those who legislate on our behalf. Send a link to this thread to your local member of parliament.

[digger]

Here is some food for thought....

http://www.polfed.org/risky_business_0310.pdf

In NSW, and I dare say in other states, there is no annual re-accreditation for Police as far as driving is concerned on or in a dedicated training facility.

The interesting thing is that depending on length of service, some police may have gained their driving accreditation on a VK Commodore back in the 80's, yet are now driving around in far more technologically advanced vehicles without ever having being re-accredited.

Mick,
spot on, I got my advanced driver accred. in a VK!! (at MALLALA Raceway!)
I also did my cage permit in a holden panel van and my heavy vehicle (cage riot truck) in a bedford!

But I worked with a bloke (who is still on the road) did his advanced driving test in a valiant! (good, fast on straight, hold on for corners(and hope), pray for distance when time to stop!!)

and you guessed it, no driver training updates, no on hands training for ABS, ASC , (and/or all those other letters!)


But every year all the costs go up, replacements cost more etc etc, and the budget (in real terms) in SA at least hasnt raced ahead to keep up. Theres also the difficulty of training people from all over the state, the shortage of people to do the job whilst they are training and the actual direct costs of the training itself (for people at marla to do it, its 2 days travel to adelaide, vehicle and fuel costs, accom and meals, wear on training veh and full service and repairs after each course (requirement of OH&S). then two days back....yada yada...


Id say its the same all over!
(but back to the point.... very astute Mick!)

digger

[JDNSW]

Having worked in emergency services for over twenty-six years, I also don't believe that there is any such animal as a car "accident". They are "crashes" or "collisions" and in most cases there is one single underlying factor or action which, if prevented, will prevent the collision from occuring - in most cases it is driver inattention (which we have probably all been guilty of at one point or another!!!
.......

I agree with almost all you have to say, but as with Diana, you are being selective in you meanings of the word "accident". This word does not mean that an event was purely a chance event, but also can have the meaning of unintentional. As I said earlier, attempts to redefine the meaning of words are almost always unsuccessful.

I have to disagree with the premise that there is almost always "one single underlying factor". There is invariably (not just sometimes, but always) a number of factors involved, any one of which would have prevented the accident from occurring. Concentrating on a single factor is usually misleading. In this case we have a good example of it - you are looking on the behaviour of the driver as the single cause, the mother of the passenger is looking at the behaviour of the police! Both views see the single factor as the only underlying factor, and I say you are both wrong - and right. Both are underlying factors, and both are only some of the underlying factors. Some others probably include, apart from the ones I mentioned, the legal system, the friends and family of the driver who failed to either prevent him from driving or call the police when he was (I'll bet this is not the first time he was driving after getting out of hospital!).

Stepping away from this particular accident, we see the tendency to blame a particular event on (for example) speed, where in reality the crash was the result of a combination of factors - speed, blood alcohol, road construction, tyre pressure, tread wear, weather conditions, etc.

What needs to be clear, however, is that "underlying factors" and blame or responsibility are not the same. To blame someone or say they are responsible, you have to be able to say that a key underlying factor was under the control of a person that knew (or should have known) about it, and they still did not eliminate that factor. In this case the responsibility clearly rests primarily (in fact almost entirely) with the driver. But that does not make the driver's behaviour the "single underlying factor". Look up the "Swiss Cheese Model" for aircraft accident investigation.

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I agree with almost all you have to say, but as with Diana, you are being selective in you meanings of the word "accident". This word does not mean that an event was purely a chance event, but also can have the meaning of unintentional. As I said earlier, attempts to redefine the meaning of words are almost always unsuccessful.

<snip>

JohnJohn

I'm not sure that I agree with you on this.

Firstly, we are not attempting to re-define the meaning of the word. What is being attempted is using the correct meaning of the word.

Most if not all courses in the medical management of trauma use the term crash in place of the former use of the word accident. In the UK it is rare for the emergency services to call the collision of one or more vehicles an accident. The usual term is "motor vehicle crash (or collision) abreviated to MVC, same with the US who use the word crash. It is only the uneducated in Aus who continue to use the term MVA.

As to other attempts to "redefine the meanings" (sic) back in the days of the train hitting the Bold Street Bridge at Granville the common use of the word disaster was usual. These days, "disaster" has a quite specific definition which relates to the ability of the available resources to cope with the magnitude of the incident and it is unusual for professional emergency services to use the "D" word. The term most usually heard from the mouths of the professionals is "incident" and it is usually only hype monger journalists and media personalities who will use the "D" word. Black Saturday in Victoria clearly met the definition of Disaster and was freely called as such.

Diana

[rmp]

I'm shocked that the police do not require their drivers to be re-certified.

Using the same braking techniques on an ABS/non-ABS car is inefficient at best and dangerous at worst, not to mention needing to know the effects of EBD, EBA and ESC.

I don't believe this is the case for the UK police drivers?

[MickS]

I'm shocked that the police do not require their drivers to be re-certified.


Yep. $$$$$$$$$$$ .... say no more.

Training, in any form in the cops, is a necessary evil to management. They only do it to cover their arses under OH & S/Workcover etc and it probably equates to only 1% of overall expenditure.

In NSW, the police driver training facility is in Goulburn. To send, lets say at the very least, 10,000 police from across NSW there for a minimum 2 day assessment/accreditation etc once per annum equates to 20,000 shifts which need to be covered. It will never happen. The heirarchy were dragged kicking and screaming to get annual re-accreditation on firearms etc. Took the deaths of 2 police at Crescent Head to get a decent service firearm. Yet how many civilians and police are injured/killed in vehicle pursuits, yet there is NO further training once certified.


(http://www.afp.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/81714/CN00004.pdf)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Yep. $$$$$$$$$$$ .... say no more.

<snip>Yes and when the NSW Police Driver Training Centre was at St Ives they could do the two day Goulburn course in one day for Police stationed in the Metropolitan area or Central Coast. An immediate 25 - 30% reduction in the cost of driver training.

[MickS]

Yes and when the NSW Police Driver Training Centre was at St Ives they could do the two day Goulburn course in one day for Police stationed in the Metropolitan area or Central Coast. An immediate 25 - 30% reduction in the cost of driver training.

Yep...Goulburn was, as usual, a penny pinching exercise by the government of the time. Unfortunately, the cost associated with sending police there since then, for any type of training...T/A, meal and accommodation expenses - to my mind, outweighs the decision to have it there. Redfern had outgrown it's usefullness...but the government had a perfect opportunity to build a dedicated, all round, training facility when Ford at Homebush closed down. As usual, everyone sat on their hands...:no2::no2:

Snives was a great facility...:cool:

[THE BOOGER]

highway patrol at least should be requalified every couple years but its the knobs being chased that need serious retraining they are the over riding cause of pursuit accidents look at this guys record released this morning he shouldnt have been out free. This was at least his 3rd police chase and he knew what to do to get the police to stop the chase and did it. the police didnt crash so is their training a (driver) even a factor in this crash:(

PS: if cost for retraining is too much send the instructor to the police not the police to the instructor plenty of race tracks around the country:D

[stevo68]

John I agree with your post but the things you cite are facts. What was the underlying cause? Stupidity? Selfishness? Lack of self-discipline? Lack of self-respect? If one was to play arm chair critic...one would say all of the above. The guy was a disqualified driver with a criminal record.....he couldn't give a rats and may he burn in hell.

I was watching the telly last night on this subject and someone mentioned that maybe "education" may have made a difference....LOL I did. What is wrong with these bleeding heart civil libertarians. What sort of education tells some weapons grade cock end that disobeying the law, running from police etc is going to make them change. We are a society...no matter what happens....there will always be scum.

Problem is as a society, especially ours....we have become soft...so punishments do not fit the crime. So we have to wear the consequences of that softness and one of them is the sad loss of 2 parents and a beautiful child.

Touching on Lots of Landies comment earlier about the difference between it being an accident and a crash. I read recently a police officer on the force for 25+ yrs and he said he had seen very few accidents in that time...but many many crashes.

So in my eyes.....we all share a part to blame...we are not hard enough on our governments to toughen up.....whether it be crime, immigration issues, health and so forth. Whether this scum is intelligent or not.....they know what they can get away with...many break and enters happen when people are not home...why? Because if they get caught they know that it is a lesser crime opposed to if people are in the house. This worm food was out on bail.......waiting to be convicted of yet another crime. Those words again....out on bail.....common story now days....person committing same crime whilst out on bail.

Bottom line...IMO ;)......these things are only going to increase because the measures aren't there to bring them into line....and never will be...as the pain felt by the people in society, who are directly affected, is in such a small scale. Only when the pain is on such a large scale will society react and changes made. Until then we will write on forums...have a chat over the water cooler and go on with our lives.

Regards

Stevo

[stevo68]

Williams had 37 convictions for offences such as stealing cars, burglary and possessing stolen property, with his criminal record dating back to 2002 when he was 15 years old.



He had been left in a three-week coma 10 months ago after another car accident in a stolen vehicle which had forced him to use a walking stick and left him with suspected brain damage. Also it would seem he knew the family that he killed.


Regards


Stevo

[Tombie]

We had a high speed chase here the other week...
Heading towards Cowell... On the highway...

Cop rang our nearby mine and got them to send 2 vehicles down to block the highway.

This guy was armed and running..

Well the road block worked, volley of shots exchanged and the scum is no longer a wasteful consumer of oxygen.

[bobslandies]

Yep...Goulburn was, as usual, a penny pinching exercise by the government of the time. Unfortunately, the cost associated with sending police there since then, for any type of training...T/A, meal and accommodation expenses - to my mind, outweighs the decision to have it there. Redfern had outgrown it's usefullness...but the government had a perfect opportunity to build a dedicated, all round, training facility when Ford at Homebush closed down. As usual, everyone sat on their hands...:no2::no2:

Snives was a great facility...:cool:

The Government was also actually offered the Wunderlich factory across Baptist St from Redfern for expansion. Demolished, it would become a shopping centre.
Instead political expediency ruled and a College of Advanced Education, Teachers College or whatever it had failed as in the decentralisation programs of the day was touted as suitable as the new Police Academy. A MASSIVE expansion was then carried out and now cannot ever be undone.
The Redfern site was later flogged off and the only presence amongst the monks is the Mounted Police in one corner of the site.

Bob

[MickS]

The Government was also actually offered the Wunderlich factory across Baptist St from Redfern for expansion. Demolished, it would become a shopping centre.
Instead political expediency ruled and a College of Advanced Education, Teachers College or whatever it had failed as in the decentralisation programs of the day was touted as suitable as the new Police Academy. A MASSIVE expansion was then carried out and now cannot ever be undone.
The Redfern site was later flogged off and the only presence amongst the monks is the Mounted Police in one corner of the site.

Bob

Yep...a sad day that Bob....a lot of history and shennangins went with the sale...then they leased back the area for the mounties for the next 100 years or so...peppercorn lease I think it's called.

No vision of course...they are lease happy now...selling off police buildings/assets left, right and centre. And, as told to me by a mate who used to work in the old properties branch - "they only see as far ahead as the next election.." No surprises there of course. Only a matter of time before they sell off the land at Menai where the dog squad is based. You have no idea how much work I put in to trying to secure that area near the doggies as an OS training facility....:mad: Would have been ideal.

[Treads]

Officers hurt as police wagon rolls in crash - ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/03/19/2850335.htm'section=justin)

Just as MickS suggests there are a lot of problems with Police chases and the wrong vehicle is a significant one.


highway patrol at least should be requalified every couple years ................the police didnt crash so is their training a (driver) even a factor in this crash:(

PS: if cost for retraining is too much send the instructor to the police not the police to the instructor plenty of race tracks around the country:D

I've been watching this thread for a bit and thought I'd offer my $0.02 :angel:

Only a low percentage of chases are initiated by Highway Patrol vehicles. Most are due to a General duties vehicle attempting a random stop, or for a minor traffic infringment, and the offending vehicle taking off on them. In NSW (and many other states) most GD vehicles are of a different category to HP cars.

Most GD vehicles are caged trucks or 4wd wagons etc. Usually when these vehicles initiate a pursuit they are called off almost straight away by police radio unless there is a Category 1 vehicle nearby and able to take over the pursuit.

I can never understand why Australian Police have so many vehicles incapable of safely pursuing an offender :no2: I think they should really have higher numbers of powerful sedans in general duties roles. Perhaps if offenders weren't so confident that they could initially outrun Police, they may not elect to try :bangin:

[MickS]

I've been watching this thread for a bit and thought I'd offer my $0.02 :angel:

Only a low percentage of chases are initiated by Highway Patrol vehicles. Most are due to a General duties vehicle attempting a random stop, or for a minor traffic infringment, and the offending vehicle taking off on them. In NSW (and many other states) most GD vehicles are of a different category to HP cars.

Most GD vehicles are caged trucks or 4wd wagons etc. Usually when these vehicles initiate a pursuit they are called off almost straight away by police radio unless there is a Category 1 vehicle nearby and able to take over the pursuit.

I can never understand why Australian Police have so many vehicles incapable of safely pursuing an offender :no2: I think they should really have higher numbers of powerful sedans in general duties roles. Perhaps if offenders weren't so confident that they could initially outrun Police, they may not elect to try :bangin:

That's the point treads..the heirarchy know that if a milk truck manned by 2 inexperienced police stumbles upon a stolen vehicle, the pursuit will inevitably be called off. No mess to clean up, pardon the pun - not intended. Depending upon the category of vehicle, as I have mentioned previously, they can't even respond urgent duty to a persons on premises, as it is not life threatening. Yet with one arrest, they could potentially halt a one or two person house breaking racket.

[Redback]

YES



































































































































































NO:confused:

[rockyroad]

Love a good news story Tombie !!

[123rover50]

JUST SHOOT THEM .. END OF STORY...

[digger]

The French have a different method, as in this case with a motorcyclist


YouTube- motochocaentunel

believe he may not reoffend!


digger

[MickS]

Sacre Bleur!! Le idiote!!! Le... 'ow you say...tool? :Rolling::Rolling:

[digger]

Sacre Bleur!! Le idiote!!! Le... 'ow you say...tool? :Rolling::Rolling:

I'd love to read the paperwork explaining that!

[Sprint]

PIT technique applied perfectly!

[Shonky]

Bugger the French - The Spaniards have it down!

YouTube- Horrible motorcycle accident that was on purpose. Caused by the police to stop a robbery attempt

[RobHay]

Personally .....and this is my opinion only and does not in anyway reflect the opinion of the Management of this site, that of my employer or that of the Federal Government... although I'm pretty sure me dawg may agree with me, but then again him and the Attack Cat would agree with anything (have to get the legal stuff out of the way).

Pursue the mongrels until until they remove themselves from the gene pool.

Most people of the criminal bent know that at the moment all they have to do is reach a certain speed or commence to drive in a dangerous manner and the Police are ordered to back off and they are home free.

As for getting the licence plate number and going and waiting down the street from Mum's place for them to come home won't work as most of these fools like to use your car or my car to out race the Police, my car is insured so I have no problem with them using it to arrange passage to see God.

One or two major pursuits resulting in total destruction of the pursuee's will have a major impact on the other idiots decision to attempt to flee, cos they know that they gonna be minutes away from either capture or lining up for a set of wings.

Police MUST have protection for their actions, based on reasonable action, written into the relevant legislation. Because at the moment if they do anything that turns ugly they can be held personally liable, ...and to be quite honest who amongst us are going to perform your duty to such an extent that you could finish up losing your house.

In my industry we have two teams of players on the field....The Blue Team ....and the Brown Team....and the rules are written in such a way that the Blue Team .......ALWAYS WINS :nazilock::D:angel:

[clean32]

for those who avocate shooting a moving vehical. it doint quite work like that

YouTube- BMW vs Russian Police

[Beast]

Now that makes me re-evaluate my opinion of the French. Gives new meaning to the term "terminate the pursuit". :D

[Treads]

for those who avocate shooting a moving vehical. it doint quite work like that


:eek: How many civilians where hit by rounds fired by the Police???? :rocket: :coplight:

[CraigE]

Sad for families that have family and friends killed but, no the police are not to blame and no chases should not be called off. If we allow this to happen there will be no rules and every dipstick will run. Make the drivers responsible for their actions eg
Not stopping for police : mandatory loss of license for 5 years plus any other charges.
Not stopping for the police and speed involved : 1 year jail without any parole and 5 years loss of license from the time of release.
Not stopping and involved in an accident : 5 years jail without parole and loss of license for life.
Not stopping and involved in an accident and injuries occur : 10 years jail without parole and loss of license for life.
Not stopping and involved in an accident and death occurs : 20 years jail without parole and loss of license for life.
Plus any other charges and facing their victims.
No excuses running from police is a pre-meditated decision, stop and take the traffic offences, be responsible for your actions, further consequences are just too high.
Bring back allowing police the ability to shotgun the tyres or better still shoot the driver.

[CraigE]

for those who avocate shooting a moving vehical. it doint quite work like that

YouTube- BMW vs Russian Police (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFXuEUGh-Fs&feature=player_embedded)
Pathetic, looks staged. Slow speed pursuit and they are useless police, plenty of opportunities to force the car off the road, missed shot, great markesmen makes me think they werent even using real guns. But above all not stopping put a bullet into the driver. If they were using tyre shots only then I think they did ok, because at no time did they stray or even hit the car, maybe just the road from the dust. I would be questioning their ability to hit a target, hence this is why a shotgun is much better for this or better still a bullet into the driver and they did have plenty of opportunity. Shooting a moving vehicle is only ever effective if you hit it or the driver.

[Frenchie]

One or two major pursuits resulting in total destruction of the pursuee's will have a major impact on the other idiots decision to attempt to flee, cos they know that they gonna be minutes away from either capture or lining up for a set of wings.


Fit mini-guns to police cars and helicopters. Same reasoning, the chase would be over quickly and you would only have to shoot a few before the rest got the message. :nazilock:

[clean32]

:eek: How many civilians where hit by rounds fired by the Police???? :rocket: :coplight:

NONE

[clean32]

Thank you for your comments


Pathetic, looks staged. .
it is not staged

Slow speed pursuit.

Look at the roads involved and the slow speed stage is as a result of the offending driver was leaking badly.

and they are useless police, .

Don’t tell them that, or at least by a box first

Western Australia has a ratio of cops to civilians of 1:440 RF has a ratio of 1: 2600. Having said that the average Russian is scared witless of a cop, I have seen 6' 110kg guys shaking in there boots when stopped by a pimply faced 20 year old cop who at best would have hit 70Kg wet. Egg a cop you die, rather simple and effective policing, seems to be what many are advocating here.

plenty of opportunities to force the car off the road, .
Great wonderful idea, you drive a 1200 KG car on roads that are for 9 months of the year covered in either snow or packed ice and try and force another car off the road, or even a pram!


missed shot, great markesmen makes me think they werent even using real guns. .

topies 9.1mm more knock down than a 9mm parbellum. I hazard a guess that you have never had to shoot a moving vehicle from a moving vehicle, I have, often, its not easy. There marksmanship is quite good.


But above all not stopping put a bullet into the driver. .
they did 5 times, why do you think he stopped.


If they were using tyre shots only then I think they did ok.

Try this, go stand beside your wheel a poke a round into it. Theirs a good chance a big hunk of rubber will take your head off. More likely if it hot and spinning.



, because at no time did they stray or even hit the car, maybe just the road from the dust. I would be questioning their ability to hit a target, .

Look again but put your glasses on this time, last frames you can see the impact of rounds, officially only one round was not accounted for.



hence this is why a shotgun is much better for this.

I will drive you can lean out the window with a shot gun and try and hit some thing, or even just try it in your drive way, careful its loaded so don’t take your own head off with it ok


Or better still a bullet into the driver and they did have plenty of opportunity. .

as i said 5 times, good shooting really


Shooting a moving vehicle is only ever effective if you hit it or the driver.

true but even then it took 5 rounds, i guess vodka is a good pain killer

as a note, the lada samara driven by the GAI ( traffic police, not real cops) as seen in this clip is still being made today. It has basically the same 1500cc motor that was in the Lada nivia 4x4 only with bosh fuel injection. New price about 700 usd

I have been over taken on winter roads by these things. While in twitching all over the road in an Audi A8 awd. Fantastic things over there, useless over here.

Having said that, a mate brought a new one, his pride a joy. Wheel fell off on the drive home. 3klm. No nut fitted to the rear stub. Worse he is a GAI officer


Russian soviet times joke ( close to the bone)

A worker saves his Kopecs for 20 years, finally he has enough to by a new car.

At the dealer he pays the money and is informed that the delivery time is 2 years. As he leaves he stops turns around and asks what day would that be. The dealer opens his order book as says that will be a Tuesday. Morning or afternoon is the response. Morning. Oh good he replies the plumber is coming around in the afternoon.