Airnorth Embraer crush, 2 death

[Chucaro]

Just happens in the NT the 2 pilot are death :(
I flew this Brazilian planes in Uruguay and they are Ok. Just wonder what happens.
The news are HERE (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/03/22/2852536.htm'section=justin)

[JDNSW]

It was engaged in a training flight - I wonder if the check pilot pulled an "engine failure after take-off"? I thought that these had been banned after the Essendon crash - or maybe that was only at night?

The other likely cause of course is an actual engine failure, probably due to fuel mismanagement, although with the plane empty there should have been plenty of performance available (hot & humid?) - but what may not have been available was a margin of control if it was slow and dirty (flaps & gear still down, propeller unfeathered).

Even in the best of circumstances losing an engine on takeoff in a light twin is likely to be exciting.

Of course, it could be something entirely different, such as a control failure or sudden incapacitation of the PIC (pilot in command). I suppose wake turbulence could be a possibility if a heavy had just left, but the Embraer is a bit big to be affected that badly.

John

[Sleepy]

It was engaged in a training flight - I wonder if the check pilot pulled an "engine failure after take-off"? I thought that these had been banned after the Essendon crash - or maybe that was only at night?




John,
Asymmetrics are still practiced a lot. I think your referring to the Partenavia crash off Rwy 26 at Essendon - that was a while back now (1980?) - I can't recall fully, but there was an issue with the ailerons on that one too. PN68's never fly well on one donk.:(

Yes, assymmetrics are often interesting - the Brazilian should do ok on one donk. Perhaps a single engine go round or perhaps a combination of lots of things.:angel:

[JDNSW]

John,
Asymmetrics are still practiced a lot. I think your referring to the Partenavia crash off Rwy 26 at Essendon - that was a while back now (1980?) - I can't recall fully, but there was an issue with the ailerons on that one too. PN68's never fly well on one donk.:(

Yes, assymmetrics are often interesting - the Brazilian should do ok on one donk. Perhaps a single engine go round or perhaps a combination of lots of things.:angel:

Yes, that is the incident I was thinking of. As you say, the Brasilia should do OK on one engine, particularly empty, but I suspect things could get interesting with a combination of hot + humid (high density altitude) and if the airspeed was a bit low. And at that altitude there would be zero chance of recovery. I think it is still correct to say that statistically speaking, if you have an engine failure on a single compared to a light twin, you are more likely to have an accident in the single, but you are more likely to have a fatal accident in the twin, because any accident is likely to be a loss of control not a forced landing. And people walk away from most forced landings, but not often from loss of control accidents.

But this is all simply speculation anyway. It will be interesting to see what comes out. Anyone know if they have flight data recorders? I would think they would with that number of seats in a modern aircraft.

John

[Sleepy]

Yeah I think they would have a "Black Box". I'm not quite sure but above a certain number of seats (16?) it is required for charter acft.


if you have an engine failure on a single compared to a light twin, you are more likely to have an accident in the single, but you are more likely to have a fatal accident in the twin, because any accident is likely to be a loss of control not a forced landing

Yes I have heard many say similar. In a single your decision is quite straight forward; Lose an engine and your decision is made - Look and Land
In a twin there is a lot of diagnosis and recovery time that, as you say, you don't have a lot of at low altitude on upwind.:o

Yes hot+humid does not help:(

Just found this 197802547 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1978/aair/aair197802547.aspx)

Page 14 has the conclusions.

[Chucaro]

The 120 have a Black Box.
It is an interesting reading Here (http://www.nytimes.com/1995/08/23/us/investigators-of-plane-crash-focus-on-left-engine-failure.html?pagewanted=1)
Quote: "Although the Embraer 120 Brasilia is designed to be able to fly on one engine, Atlanta air traffic controllers said the aircraft was having difficulty holding its altitude after reporting its emergency."

[VladTepes]

On this latest crash...

(from another source)

...were doing EFATO (engine failure after take off) circuits an have had a flame out on their critical engine. From all accounts vMCA (minimum control speed) has played it's cruel part and induced a stall.

[Narangga]

They were off 31 at Darwin and ended up n the trees just short of the RAAF golf course, RAAF houses and the main drag to the northern suburbs - Bagot Rd.

Not nice whatever happened. Been pax on that one a few times Darwin back to Gove.

[JDNSW]

On this latest crash...

(from another source)

...were doing EFATO (engine failure after take off) circuits an have had a flame out on their critical engine. From all accounts vMCA (minimum control speed) has played it's cruel part and induced a stall.

vMCA is the minimum speed for directional control in the takeoff configuration with the critical engine out and takeoff power on the other engine, usually set by the limit of rudder authority. If the aircraft drops below this speed in these circumstances it will enter an uncommanded turn, and the increased lift induced by the turn will cause a further reduction in airspeed, tightening the turn further, a runaway situation leading very rapidly to a stall, and, with one engine still at takeoff power, almost certainly an incipient spin. If this happens at low altitude the aircraft will hit the ground at a high descent rate (and probably with one wing and nose low, possibly even inverted) before there is any possibility of recovery. The only (slight) possibility of saving the situation is to close the other throttle and land straight ahead. The solution is never to get into this position, which is why avoiding it is practiced!

VMCA varies quite a lot for different aircraft, and tends to be higher for high performance aircraft, and less significant for three or four engined aircraft or those with turbofans or turbojets mounted on the fuselage - even where wing mounted on twins (such as the 737) these are usually a lot closer in than they would be if propeller clearance from the fuselage was needed. The most impressive figure I can recall is the BN2a, where the VMCA is below the clean stalling speed.

John

[Chucaro]

More about the crush HERE (http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2010/03/22/133611_ntnews.html)

Here (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/03/23/2854126.htm) are more news about the high risk manoeuvres, and they are looking into the introduction of flight simulators.

I was under the impression that by now flight simulators was a comon device in all the airports or where pilot training take place :eek:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/03/483.jpg

[Narangga]

More about the crush HERE (http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2010/03/22/133611_ntnews.html)

Here (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/03/23/2854126.htm) are more news about the high risk manoeuvres, and they are looking into the introduction of flight simulators.

I was under the impression that by now flight simulators was a comon device in all the airports or where pilot training take place :eek:

http://www.ntnews.com.au/images/uploadedfiles/editorial/pictures/2010/03/22/crashpilotsNEW-650px.jpg

They are. Bridgee (sorry Michael Bridge) the Air North CEO said on the local ABC news tonight (in a read statement) that this was the last time they had scheduled the training as their approval for the use of the simulator was about to come through...

Air North also operate two Embraer jets.

[VladTepes]

More about the crush HERE (http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2010/03/22/133611_ntnews.html)

I was under the impression that by now flight simulators was a comon device in all the airports or where pilot training take place :eek:


The thing is, as a pilot I know pointed out, that simulators cost money and the Australian Public all seem to think they should be able to fly for free!

[JDNSW]

The thing is, as a pilot I know pointed out, that simulators cost money and the Australian Public all seem to think they should be able to fly for free!

The basic problem is that to be sufficiently close to the real thing to be useful, the simulator cost is fairly independent of the type of plane involved. It only becomes economic to replace an aircraft being used for training with a simulator when the cost of running the simulator (mostly capital cost) is less than the cost of running the plane. As the cost of the simulator per pilot to be "refreshed" or trained decreases with the number of pilots, up to the capacity of the time available on the simulator, and the cost of running a plane for training is pretty much dependent on the size of plane, it is clear that below a certain size of plane, and below a certain number of the same type, it is not going to happen. It would seem that the airline in question is just about at that breakpoint!

The argument that the simulator is "safer" is hardly relevant - none of the prescribed exercises are considered too risky - and they are not, but this particular exercise can, as demonstrated have catastrophic results if bungled, as appears to have happened (might still turn out to be something else!). And the statistics bear the safety of it out - you rarely read in the papers of this sort of accident, and this particular exercise is routinely carried out every day, all over Australia by any commercial organisation running small(ish) twin engined planes - and there are a lot of them.

In other parts of the world, such as the USA where there is much more aviation, it might be possible to have an independent business running simulators, but this is clearly not feasible in a low population country as geographically dispersed and with so many different aircraft types in use as Australia.

John

[Chucaro]

It is the flight simulator dedicated to a few type of planes or with software and some hardware can be used for any plane?
I think that in Mascot is one but for the big Boeing.

[Sleepy]

Simulators are good but nothing beats the real thing. Pilots need to able to practice engine failure and do so everywhere. This includes practising engine failure on take-off and on missed approach. They even practice it with the big stuff. - sit on the side of a the Geelong Freeway and you'll see lots of different aircraft from Be76 to B747 doing asymmetric training at Avalon airport.

Anyway, as mentioned earlier, it is all speculation until we know the facts.

ATSB - report
(http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2010/aair/ao-2010-019.aspx)
Keep your eye on the above site for the preliminary report which should appear in a week (month?) or so.

[Narangga]

It is the flight simulator dedicated to a few type of planes or with software and some hardware can be used for any plane?
I think that in Mascot is one but for the big Boeing.

There are simulators and simulators.

The big end of town are the one you mentioned and the small end of town are set up like an aircraft cockpit but are more like a seat in front of a computer screen. These can be for single engine aircraft too.

[Chucaro]

Yes, tanks, after I placed the post I have done some research and found THIS (http://www.ansettsimulators.com/site/simulators_emb120.html) in Melbourne.

Nice gear :)

[Sleepy]

Yes, tanks, after I placed the post I have done some research and found THIS (http://www.ansettsimulators.com/site/simulators_emb120.html) in Melbourne.

Nice gear :)

Nice to see the Ansett name living on.:ohyes:

[Narangga]

Yes, tanks, after I placed the post I have done some research and found THIS (http://www.ansettsimulators.com/site/simulators_emb120.html) in Melbourne.

Nice gear :)

That's confirmed in the local media too.

Crash pilots were flying 'dangerous' manoeuvre | Northern Territory News | Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia | ntnews.com.au (http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2010/03/24/134111_ntnews.html)