Connecting a gen set to the house

[LandyAndy]

Hi People
Is there a SAFE way of hooking my Honda 20eu genset to the house when there is no power.
We had an electriggery free evening last nite.First real use for the genset,performed well.Was a pain using leads and powerboards to hook what we needed up.
A mate had a lead with 2 male ends,he would turn the power off at the meter and supply power to the house thru a power point.
I realise that this is EXTREMELY dangerous having a lead with a live end.
Is there a safe and easy way about it,no problems paying an eletriggery expert to do the work if need be.
Thanks
Andrew

[Sprint]

there are changeover switches available for exactly this purpose, generally get a caravan type socket on the side of your meter box, simply plug the genset in with a extension lead, fire it up and flick the changeover switch

[rovercare]

Is it really worth the effort and $$$?

How often does the power go off at your place?

Changeover switch is all that is need, just plug a lead in from the genset, hit the change over switch which takes the mains off and switchs to the socket

[bee utey]

Not a hard problem. I have a solar battery back-up which does a similar job, flick the supply change-over switch and we're on back-up. I have to remind the wife not to use the toaster or fan heater though:o. Also you need to make sure no multi-KW loads like HWS are on.

[miky]

As Sprint says. But you really need to get this done by an electrician.

As has been said, is it really worth the cost?

If it is a rare occurrence, just use the power board system. Now that you have done it once, you should have a fair idea how to set your "really must have working" appliances via the power board.
Generally we only bother with a couple of table lamps and the kettle.

[LandyAndy]

Our power supply is generally pretty good.
Having a good gen set,its worth being able to use it when the occasion arises.
Power cords are messy.The house has the new fluro lights in all places.Have gas HWS and hotplates so the genie will power the house alone if need be.
Andrew

[bee utey]

Just one thing with wiring the whole house supply: how do you know when the power comes back on?:o You need a circuit that remains connected to the mains when the gen is on and plug in a lamp or radio. I have a sub-board inside so I run only the living area off backup. After you quiz your sparkie you might just do the plug board thing again.;)
The new 12 volt LED downlights are cool too, you can legally wire in your own supply off your deep cycle out in the carport and switch over to that.

[mark2]

Hi People
Is there a SAFE way of hooking my Honda 20eu genset to the house when there is no power.
We had an electriggery free evening last nite.First real use for the genset,performed well.Was a pain using leads and powerboards to hook what we needed up.
A mate had a lead with 2 male ends,he would turn the power off at the meter and supply power to the house thru a power point.
I realise that this is EXTREMELY dangerous having a lead with a live end.
Is there a safe and easy way about it,no problems paying an eletriggery expert to do the work if need be.
Thanks
Andrew

Its called "backfeeding''. It can be dangerous if you arent careful. Also to linesmen if you forget to isolate the mains.
A 'friend' who does it this way has a detailed procedure which he follows to the letter which involves the order in which the lead is connected, generator started, power switched etc. Provided this is followed correctly and carefully, it can be 'safe' and the end of the lead will never be live. The jumper lead should also be taped up or otherwise locked out when not in use and stored where it is only accessible to you.
This is not a recommendation to do it this way, but it can be done safely with common sense. Unfortunately common sense is not common which is why this method of connection is illegal.

[Blknight.aus]

you can get a change over switch that once set to the aux or genset supply will flick back over to mains supply after the mains comes back on.

I know of a couple of places that are wired up like you're trying to do but they are wired up so that the genset input socket on the meter box only runs the house lights, fridge/freezer and the bed room ceiling fans.

I also know of someone whose run a 12v set of led downlights so that if a light switch is on when the mains power goes out the led light turns on automatically. other than it runs from a couple of old car batteries and a small solar panel I dont know how its wired up to do that.

[BMKal]

I'd check the legality of this Andrew.

If you (or anyone else) has a gen-set back feeding into your house, and have forgotten to isolate from the mains, you will be feeding current into the mains. The poor old linesman who is out there repairing the fault, and thinking that he is working on a dead system, all of a sudden comes into contact with live components which he was not expecting.

It's highly illegal to backfeed into your house this way if it is connected to Western Power. A number of people in Kal got busted for it big time some years ago. If anyone from Western Power (or whoever it is these days) is driving around and sees your place lit up during a power outage - they WILL investigate.

[bee utey]

Find a solar installer in your area, back up generators are used in RAPS systems. They should be able to advise on legality. Otherwise go the 12 volt downlights!

[Vern]

I've set a couple of these up in shops, first you need a DOUBLE POLE three position switch, a 'caravan style socket'(prefer clipsal 56 series type), and all must be protected by an RCD/MCD (or rcd and c/b). Obviously your only going to be using 1 circuit (unless your genny allows for more), so circuit protection must be current limiting to comply with the lead your using, or your lead must suit the current protection.
They way it wired is 240v feeds into one side of the 3 pos switch, gen feeds into the other, then out of the middle it feeds to your circuit protection then out to your circuit.. (this is a vague description of how its done)( get a licensed sparky to do it)
What you don't do is make a male to male lead, very very illegal, these have been known to kill people aswell as those piggy back plug tops, also illegal). This can backfeed down the line via the neutral (if wired incorrect) even with the mains turned off.

[eckwalsh]

I've set a couple of these up in shops, first you need a DOUBLE POLE three position switch, a 'caravan style socket'(prefer clipsal 56 series type), and all must be protected by an RCD/MCD (or rcd and c/b). Obviously your only going to be using 1 circuit (unless your genny allows for more), so circuit protection must be current limiting to comply with the lead your using, or your lead must suit the current protection.
They way it wired is 240v feeds into one side of the 3 pos switch, gen feeds into the other, then out of the middle it feeds to your circuit protection then out to your circuit.. (this is a vague description of how its done)( get a licensed sparky to do it)
What you don't do is make a male to male lead, very very illegal, these have been known to kill people aswell as those piggy back plug tops, also illegal). This can backfeed down the line via the neutral (if wired incorrect) even with the mains turned off.

Hi Guys.
As a licenced sparky what Vern says is exactly correct. It is highly illegal to have a male to male lead made up.You will get crucified if ever there is a drama caused by one of these. I have set these up a number of times and Vern again has it correct with the 15amp caravan socket,3 possition switch and the safety switches.I have seen installations where the owner has set up a gen set and just wired it in with a lead and plug. Nearly did kill the linesman who is a mate of mine. Was just lucky he had the presence of mind to test the line dead before working on it. Bug drama's for the person that did it tho.Is an expensive excersise tho.

Regards

Eric

[Tombie]

Power goes out here (only done it once in our area in 5 years and that was because a teenager wiped out a stobie pole) we just go on the patio, light some candles and talk :cool:

Or go for a walk, down the beach etc... :)

One can always live without power for hours :angel:

P.S> Our fridge maintains temp for approx 4-5 hours if not opened continually.... (Fight the teenager on this one constantly - "Shut the door" )

[blitz]

After 29 years of living in the top end power black out became a breeze gen set power board appliances.

to do it legally which means safely for all involved even up there were they were a relativily common occurance, I couldn't justify the cost. There were / are plenty of companies in Darwin and Katherine in the NT that do exactly that. The owner of one of them is a good friend of mine and he basically told me to stop so lazy and run an extension lead.

If you have the $$ spare to do it there is only one legal way that you can and that is to get it done proffesionally by an electrician (prefferably one who specialises in this sort of thing)

[ramblingboy42]

I cannot believe that any sensible person on this forum can condone the use of a suicide lead for ANY purpose. It is exactly that....a suicide lead.....no matter how well one protects it in storage or how carefully one connects it up it is death sentence. Recently an electrician where I work reputedly (accidently) made a death lead by not following its origin through a gland. It was realised by a contractor who was working later at the other end that he observed the possible consequence. The electricians job was terminated.
My personal thoughts are that you who know of or are using this type of lead should either destroy it and use another method and/or also report the offender to authorities. THIS IS AN EXTREMELY DANGEROUS PRACTISE THAT YOU ARE USING OR CONDONING AND SHOULD BE IMMEDIATELY STOPPED.
It concerns me so much that I may even report this matter.

[Corgie Carrier]

OK numerous sparkies have said it is possible to hook a genset to the mains (legally) and that it is expensive, but does anyone actually have a price to do this? Even a ball park figure.

The power goes out here about every 3-4 weeks and during winter can go out every few days. When out, it is for at least 2.5 hours (time taken for a linesman to travel out here) and can be out for up to 12 hours.

So any prices on this setup?

Thanks

Neale

[slug_burner]

I am no electrician but I cant imagine it would cost more than $300-$400

[LandyAndy]

I dont think ANYBODY has suggested "Suicide Leads" are OK.
I didnt,I asked about the legit method.
$300 to $400,WORTH DOING!!!!!,especially if you already own a genset!!!!!
Western Power give you $80 if the power is off for over 12hours.
Andrew

[ramblingboy42]

landy andy and mark2......you have both said here publicly that you know someone using suicide leads......having this knowledge and not doing anything about it makes you partially responsible by law for any situation arising from use of the said leads. I suggest you tell your friends it is now public knowledge and their leads be destroyed immediately.Please realise the possible repercussions here and do something about it.

[Vern]

It concerns me so much that I may even report this matter.Ah who to?:angel:

[Vern]

OK numerous sparkies have said it is possible to hook a genset to the mains (legally) and that it is expensive, but does anyone actually have a price to do this? Even a ball park figure.

The power goes out here about every 3-4 weeks and during winter can go out every few days. When out, it is for at least 2.5 hours (time taken for a linesman to travel out here) and can be out for up to 12 hours.

So any prices on this setup?

Thanks

Neale
Just a guess without seeing what there is to work with, but between, $250 and $500 in materials, a prescribed certificate and a inspector to visit and sign it off ($150-$200) and no more than 4 hours for the sparky.

As i said, it all depends on your switchboard and room to fit the new gear.:)

[Mick_Marsh]

I cannot believe that any sensible person on this forum can condone the use of a suicide lead for ANY purpose.
I worked at a place where the use of "suicide leads" were part of the job. Being a responsible workplace, they had to be tested and certified (along with all the other electrical equipment) "safe".
How do you certify a suicide lead as "safe"?? (rhetorical question)

[Vern]

I worked at a place where the use of "suicide leads" were part of the job. Being a responsible workplace, they had to be tested and certified (along with all the other electrical equipment) "safe".
How do you certify a suicide lead as "safe"?? (rhetorical question)
with todays testing and safety standards i don't think you can:(. The lead would test 'as safe', but not 'safe to use'

[LandyAndy]

RamblingBoy.
Feel free to dob my mate in.He did the dirts on me when he left town so Karma may track him down.
Dont know where he is these days,havent heard from him for 6 years.He is in a converted MTT bus travelling OZ.The lead should still be in the bus,he was powering the house from the bus when power was out.
GOODLUCK
Andrew

[Mick_Marsh]

Forgot to mention the bit on the topic.

There's a mob in Queensland who make a 240V automatic change over switch. Depending on how mush you want to spend, upon power failure, it will start the genset and switch over. Upon supply return, It will switch back and stop the genset. I looked at using one on a small control system a few years ago. We ended up upping the size of the UPS.

Another thought, I want to run an extra circuit (wired to a generator) in the house and fit it off with orange power outlets (to signify its an emergency circuit). The outlets will be placed near essential equipment (bar fridge, TV, etc). When the power goes off, arc up the generator and swap plugs into the essential power outlet. Taking it one step further, change the generator for a UPS. Get a s/h computer server room UPS. My old boss got one that would supply about 80A for half a day.

I have several UPS's about the house powering up the phone, HDD recorder and computer network (ADSL and wireless routers). I must get another one for the telly.

regards
Mick

[Mick_Marsh]

with todays testing and safety standards i don't think you can:(. The lead would test 'as safe', but not 'safe to use'
Yes.
That was the problem.
Yet, it was essential to use.

[rovercare]

landy andy and mark2......you have both said here publicly that you know someone using suicide leads......having this knowledge and not doing anything about it makes you partially responsible by law for any situation arising from use of the said leads. I suggest you tell your friends it is now public knowledge and their leads be destroyed immediately.Please realise the possible repercussions here and do something about it.

How about rambling elsewhere

Of you go, dob them in, "a man on the outerweb, he said, he had a friend, who had a friend, that made a big bad lead, that had male plugtops on Boooooth ends":)

Unfortunately, their is no legislation that stops the average DIYer from making his own leads, its perfectly legal for anyone to play with anything on a flexable lead at home, workplace practices differ. Thats why caravans have mandatory double pole switching, so when bright sparks, screw up the polarity, it don't make them dead

[rovercare]

Yes.
That was the problem.
Yet, it was essential to use.

Suicide leads are never essential, why was it essential? conveniant would be the word:D

You can utelise things such as isolating tranformers to help with safety

I'd probably mention stuff about death leads and their use in fault finding etc, but on fear of being dibber dobbed in, I wont:twisted:

[ramblingboy42]

asking me to ramble elsewhere and to go ahead and "dob in" someone only attests to the type of person you really are rovercare. My concerns are genuine and I really care about anothers persons safety when it comes to electricity. that I am receiving some jibes from you and other posters about such a serious situation stuns me.not only could these leads endanger lives but can also cause serious fires and /or cause power disruptions . I am surprised that there isnt an inspector or someone with clout on this forum who can back me up and stop silly comments being directed towards me. you all know I am 100% correct in what I'm saying so why make any adverse comment towards me?

[rovercare]

asking me to ramble elsewhere and to go ahead and "dob in" someone only attests to the type of person you really are rovercare. My concerns are genuine and I really care about anothers persons safety when it comes to electricity. that I am receiving some jibes from you and other posters about such a serious situation stuns me.not only could these leads endanger lives but can also cause serious fires and /or cause power disruptions . I am surprised that there isnt an inspector or someone with clout on this forum who can back me up and stop silly comments being directed towards me. you all know I am 100% correct in what I'm saying so why make any adverse comment towards me?

Correct, your assertations of me are likely correct:)

I propose a question to you, how do you propose to "dob someone" in on an interweb forum?, I've told you the litigation/legislation, that anything on a flexable lead goes, unfortunately, thems the rules...or lack of;)

Utelising a "death lead" is a viable fault finiding tool for an electical tradesman and like everything in life, is handy in the right hands, in the wrong hands it can be fatal, natural selection unfotunately

Curious though, how could a death lead cause a power disruption?

The back feeding theory is quite an intersting topic, as when a linesman works on a line, it is dead, isolated between 2 points minimum and anywhere possible that could cause the line to become live, if its not, it becomes live line work, which has its own safety criteria fulfilled to do so, so its not all so unsafe, albeit, can be a pain in the rectum as wondering where this funny voltage comes from, is not a great thing to deal with

Anyhow, personally I don't care, I wouldn't use a death lead to power my house, when I've had outages (i.e. black saturday) I've just set the gen set up, ran a lead and power board to the appropriate appliances and continued on with my merry life:D

[THE BOOGER]

I assume all the houses that sell power back to the power grid have some sort of cut off so they are not sending power to the grid after a blackout or there would be lots of crispy linsmen out there:wasntme:

[Vern]

I assume all the houses that sell power back to the power grid have some sort of cut off so they are not sending power to the grid after a blackout or there would be lots of crispy linsmen out there:wasntme:correct:)

[Vern]

asking me to ramble elsewhere and to go ahead and "dob in" someone only attests to the type of person you really are rovercare. My concerns are genuine and I really care about anothers persons safety when it comes to electricity. that I am receiving some jibes from you and other posters about such a serious situation stuns me.not only could these leads endanger lives but can also cause serious fires and /or cause power disruptions . I am surprised that there isnt an inspector or someone with clout on this forum who can back me up and stop silly comments being directed towards me. you all know I am 100% correct in what I'm saying so why make any adverse comment towards me?
I simply wanted to know who you were going to tell:(. a male to male lead is not illegal, as Matt said, if it plugs in via flex ang plug, you can basically get away with anything. There's nothing an inspecter can do about it either. I'll back you up that its a bad idea to make this lead, but being in the electrical trade i see bad stuff like this all the time, mainly comes from the home handy man:(.
Leave it to the pro's:)

[Mick_Marsh]

Suicide leads are never essential, why was it essential? conveniant would be the word:D

You can utelise things such as isolating tranformers to help with safety

I'd probably mention stuff about death leads and their use in fault finding etc, but on fear of being dibber dobbed in, I wont:twisted:
Point taken. Convenient would be a better word.

[rxtxau2]

I was involved in an incident where a linesman fell from a pole due to the use of the generator with dual male leads. The electricity authorities mentioned Manslaughter if it had been fatal.

THe leads are illegal.

[Homestar]

I know there has been a lot of discussion here, and the thread itself goes back a bit, but I have done a few of these for people, and the easiest and cheapest way is (and has been previously mentioned) a 3 position switch. I use a din rail mount hot water change over switch, and a caravan inlet. The change over switch is about $45 and the caravan inlet about $35. In Vic, this is prescribed wiring work, and must be inspected. Including Labour, inspection and certificate of electrical safety, the whole job can come in for $300 to $400 all up. If you want to get serious, you can put a fully automatic system in, but then you need a genset that has a remote start capability, which the little portable sets don't have, then you will need a charger to keep the whole system ready to go. I have supplied the odd complete system including diesel genset and all the goodies, but will cost between $8 and $10K for a 10KVA system using a good second hand gen, and more than this if you want to go new. Then you end up with the ongoing maintenance to make sure it will start when you need it, and the issue of keeping diesel for long periods, which is fine most of the time, but in a grotty old tank that has moisture in it... You get the picture. Despite all this, gensets have kept me gainfully employed now for over 12 years... :)

Cheers - Gav

[blitz]

Gav is correct in his explanation.

male to male plugs are illegal and dont let anyone tell you otherwise ladies and gentlemen. They are called a suicide lead for a very good reason!!!!!

Any new wiring installations must be done by an electrician with a contractors license or work for someone who does. All new electrical work needs a CoC which is a Certificate of Compliance to be legal. If you do not have this and there is any sort of incident you will be held libal no if buts or maybies.

If you need more information PM me and I will happily give specific wiring rules clauses and national/state acts and legislation.

Yes it can be done, yes it is easy, BUT it must be done by a professional.

[CraigE]

Ah any licensed electrician that is licensed and qualified to do installations can do so. I have confirmed this with electrician friends that do installs.
It is only an input, but you must make sure that the mains power is off, can be achieved with a variety of isolation tools that are available, even so that you can only use one or another.

[CraigE]

Gav is correct in his explanation.

male to male plugs are illegal and dont let anyone tell you otherwise ladies and gentlemen. They are called a suicide lead for a very good reason!!!!!

Any new wiring installations must be done by an electrician with a contractors license or work for someone who does. All new electrical work needs a CoC which is a Certificate of Compliance to be legal. If you do not have this and there is any sort of incident you will be held libal no if buts or maybies.

If you need more information PM me and I will happily give specific wiring rules clauses and national/state acts and legislation.

Yes it can be done, yes it is easy, BUT it must be done by a professional.
Agreed on the suicide lead, but there are leads and systems available. Have been on plenty of mine sites where big gens are used and hooked up legally and non permanent or permanent installations.

[81stubee]

Ah any licensed electrician that is licensed and qualified to do installations can do so. I have confirmed this with electrician friends that do installs.
It is only an input, but you must make sure that the mains power is off, can be achieved with a variety of isolation tools that are available, even so that you can only use one or another.

As vern said, In Victoria it is classed as prescribed electrical work and must be inspected. I believe this also applies no matter where you do the installation (sub-board or main sw'bd). Depending on what systems are used it can also be rather complicated in how neutral's and double pole switching are hooked up. I have installed several of these and the rules seem to change all the time with the inspectors having different opinions and AS3000 being rather vague in spots.

It may also be of interest to people that even if you have a stand-alone generator system, it should theoretically be inspected to comply with AS3000 before commissioning. This also goes along with any modifications to the main earthing system.

Also, with regard to dobbing people in, you are getting involved in things you may not understand. Yes, there are idiots out there and as said we come across them all the time. I had a big shock ( for me anyway) a few years back when some backyarder hooked up a live feed into a light with a 3 pin plug. You will end up adding red tape to an already complicated (liability wise) job. Pass your opinions on to family and friends and educate people not penalise, and if that doesn't work theres always natural selection.

Stu (Licensed Sparky)

[CraigE]

As vern said, In Victoria it is classed as prescribed electrical work and must be inspected. I believe this also applies no matter where you do the installation (sub-board or main sw'bd). Depending on what systems are used it can also be rather complicated in how neutral's and double pole switching are hooked up. I have installed several of these and the rules seem to change all the time with the inspectors having different opinions and AS3000 being rather vague in spots.

It may also be of interest to people that even if you have a stand-alone generator system, it should theoretically be inspected to comply with AS3000 before commissioning. This also goes along with any modifications to the main earthing system.

Also, with regard to dobbing people in, you are getting involved in things you may not understand. Yes, there are idiots out there and as said we come across them all the time. I had a big shock ( for me anyway) a few years back when some backyarder hooked up a live feed into a light with a 3 pin plug. You will end up adding red tape to an already complicated (liability wise) job. Pass your opinions on to family and friends and educate people not penalise, and if that doesn't work theres always natural selection.

Stu (Licensed Sparky)

Not advocating anything but using a licensed sparky to do so, but information form highly qualified sparkies is it can be done (1 owns a rather large elec domestic and mining business, 1 that owns a large domestic building elec fitout busines and 1 a senior mining supervisor who has his contractor installation license) but there is a little more to it than just plug and playing. I am not a sparky so do not know the intricacies, but have seen quite a few of these installations in industrial and domestic rural situations, so all I was really getting at is it can be done, not advocating how.
Not sure your reply is in reply to mine as I have not mentioned dobbing in my posts??
Cheers
CraigE

[Homestar]

... I have installed several of these and the rules seem to change all the time with the inspectors having different opinions...

Stu (Licensed Sparky)

Good to see I'm not the only one that battles with inspectors regulaly who all have differing opinions of the rules...:D

[81stubee]

not directed at you in any way craig. Just beleive that educating people is better that penalising them, if they then choose to ignore the rules well its there own fault.