LOWER BALL JOINT ISSUES

[jtonline]

Well had the D3 06 SE Petrol V6, serviced today, all going well. Apart from a 'coms' error on the computer but all well......

Apart from my Mechanic telling me that the Front Left hand side Lower Ball Joint is going to need to be replaced!:eek::eek::eek:

What the it only has 65 000k's on the clock with very little off road, I haven't even had a chance to 'damage' it myself before something needs replacing.

Any way has anyone else had this problem? Will be calling the dealer get it fixed under warranty (extended). Any tips, feedback, how can this happen so soon?

[ADMIRAL]

There is other data on a thread somewhere, but they have improved the balljoint design for the D4 and this is quite openly stated in some publicity releases. I believe the new D4 balljoint is used as the fit to correct issues with earlier D3's.

Chase around on the forum, there is bound to be more data there.

[300+]

I had one replaced under warranty at about 50,000.

Cheers, Steve

[gghaggis]

An uprated ball joint is now fitted to replace the earlier design in the D3. The MY2009 and I think the MY2008 have them fitted from the factory.

Cheers,

Gordon

[garryc]

The early build ball joints had a bit of a rattle in them. I changed mine as the rattle annoyed me but I don't believe they were unsafe.

[Fozzie]

I have exactly the same issue.. I am about to argue loudly that the joints and steering racks SHOULD be replaced under warranty (extended)... as 65-70K for these points is poor. Did you manage to sort the problem with your dealer ?

[CaverD3]

Known issue with early design ball joints. If extended won't help try making a claim to LR the change in design indicates a fault on LRs part.

[robertj]

Both mine are being replaced under warranty (33,000 k's 2008 model) by the dealer. I mentioned that I had a knocking in the front end and they got onto it straight away.
Should I be following up on the steering rack as well?

[bbyer]

Earlier this week, I had my Dealer replace both lower A Arms, (left LR028249, right LR028245), rather than just replacing the ball joints. Also changed were some steering tie rods ends and both rear stabilizer bar rubber bushings, (part number LR015336, jpg below).

My 3 has 127,000 km on it and this was the first time for ball joints, (city type pavement driving, no off road). I wanted the newer improved design, so all new assemblies seemed the best route as that way, I got new rubber bushings as well. There is also the view that a lower arm is only good for one replacement ball joint as there is some thought the hole can get distorted from repeated replacement. I am hoping to get closer to 200,000 km out of these new ones - we will see.

After a few days of driving, I am pleased to say that the 3 is now quieter inside, (less suspension banging and road noise from the pavement joints coming thru), so at least that part of the plan has succeeded.

[rocmic]

My MY08 had ball joints and bushes replaced under warranty in March (66000 km). Hopefully the new ones will last somewhat longer.
Cheers
Mike

[640Newton]

My 2008 went in for a service yesterday with 79,000 on the clock and it came out with a long list of items that need replacing (fortunately under warranty) including:

ball joints & bushes
FL wheel bearing
hydraulic ram - that runs the hydraulic sway bar for Dynamic Stability Control
battery
gas struts for the tailgate
I also need new discs/pads front an rear which will set me back about $1,200

[bbyer]

I would say that you have maintained a good relationship with your dealer over time. For those they favour, it seems just before the warranty expires one just may get a lot of new stuff - would say you paid for it when you first purchased the 3, but still a nice surprise.

I got a new battery, some front end stuff, as well as a bill for new brakes etc at about five hundred dollars a corner so you are getting a deal.:o

I think that if you do not complain too much, for the most part the dealers reciprocate but at the same time, they are still running a business.

[640Newton]

I would say that you have maintained a good relationship with your dealer over time. For those they favour, it seems just before the warranty expires one just may get a lot of new stuff - would say you paid for it when you first purchased the 3, but still a nice surprise.

I got a new battery, some front end stuff, as well as a bill for new brakes etc at about five hundred dollars a corner so you are getting a deal.:o

I think that if you do not complain too much, for the most part the dealers reciprocate but at the same time, they are still running a business.

It's funny you should mention that because when I was at at the service manager's desk he said that dealers are much more accommodating when lodging warranty claims for people who are polite and friendly to the staff and also those who can demonstrate that they have been looking after their vehicles. I guess it's same as most scenarios, if people are nice to you it's easier to be nice back to them, but if someone is rude and obnoxious and talks down to you then you're less likely to go out of your way to help them. Hopefully my RRS should be better than new when repaired.

[Mike_S]

It's funny you should mention that because when I was at at the service manager's desk he said that dealers are much more accommodating when lodging warranty claims for people who are polite and friendly to the staff and also those who can demonstrate that they have been looking after their vehicles. I guess it's same as most scenarios, if people are nice to you it's easier to be nice back to them, but if someone is rude and obnoxious and talks down to you then you're less likely to go out of your way to help them. Hopefully my RRS should be better than new when repaired.

That's the approach I've always taken with my car & dealer, despite them making a few cock ups along the way it's certainly worked in my favour. The extended warranty paid out for far more than it cost me in the first place.

[stig0000]

127k thats very good out of a set of lower arms,

and 640nm i wish all customers had the same thought as you:(:( unfortunately i think more are the opposite,

just a eg.

car is a volvo and has 130k on it i think it was, and in that time it has had 3 services, all just lube services, and the last service the car had was at just over 90k, long story short the one of the turbos let go, but even tho the car was wayyy out of time and distance warranty, the customer is addenmet that volvo should pay for the turbo, after some very heated talks the customer pay for the turbo( service still not carryed out) the head gasket let go and the gear box(very commen on this type of volvo)

now as you could imagine this was a very expensive month or 2, they were given a new loan car for free in this time, and since the customer told volvo what they thort of the car and a few other words, volvo say no deal to any sort of assistance, now im sure if they actuly looked after the car and would talk to us in some sort of humane way volvo would of been more then happy to help out,

i think as soon as people walk into a dealer ship they forget, speek how you would like to be spoken to, :wasntme:

[Scouse]

and the gear box(very commen on this type of volvo)

Hmm......XC90 :(.

[300+]

My MY08 had ball joints and bushes replaced under warranty in March (66000 km). Hopefully the new ones will last somewhat longer.
Cheers
Mike

My 06 has then early on at 40K and needed another set last month at 80K. The downside is that they can only replace the bushes once. Then it is new arms at $1600 or similar :-(

The dealer said it would never be covered by the extended warranty. One quick call to Allianz and it was sorted. "We replace those arms all the time on those cars".

Gotta love that extended warranty!

Cheers, Steve

[300+]

The dealer said it would never be covered by the extended warranty.

Actually on that note. You wonder why people get stressed at the dealer? Their first impulse is to defend the car. For every single instance of premature failure on my car their response is that it is a very heavy car and with all that weight it can't last long. What a complete crock. If the car isn't designed well enough to support its own weight then I'll take a full refund thanks.

When you are talking to someone who is looking at an unexpected bill for thousands you shouldn't talk to them like they are an idiot and ridicule them for buying the car you tried to sell them. I take it in good nature as I assume they are just reading from some form of script/guidance.

But at the end of the day I'm intelligent enough to earn enough to buy a fairly expensive car. So don't trot out badly thought out half truths. I'll see through it.

Steve

[gghaggis]

Interesting observations from Stig000 and 300+, I'd agree with both, but as an extreme example ...........

I was at a dealer's several months ago watching a scene go down with a client. Afterwards I was chatting to one of the managers and got his viewpoint. Basically there were 2 clients:

Customer A, almost always courteous, even when arguing bills or service work, had bought 4 cars from the same dealer, would probably buy the next one from them too. Usually knew what he was talking about (he'd actually _read_ the manual!).

Customer B, almost always walked in with metaphorical baseball bat in hand, bought his car interstate to save money and brought it over here. Had no intention of purchasing anything from said dealer. Believed conversational volume compensates for substance.

So if you're a business with limited diagnostic equipment, limited loan car resources, limited parts and service bays, who do you think is going to get preferential treatment? We're all human - we all react to provocation, or to good sense. Some people's attitude amazes me.


Cheers,

Gordon

[Ashes]

I need my ball joints and steering tie rod done as well. Looks like these are almost consumables on these cars.

It's usually a bit of shock to get the quote for replacement bits on the D3 but not entirely unexpected..most of the time:(

It's always a good thing to have a positive and trusting relationship with the service department. This does take a while to earn (both ways) but can be blown forever in an instant with a dodgy dealing. Fortunately where I go with the D3 I trust what they do and what they say needs done. They certainly know the car much better than me.

A few years back I had a Ford dealer trying to convice me that I needed to replace a door seal on a falcon and I had no other options. I hadn't been to this very large dealer before. Numerous other reports (pads/disks/leads/injectors) as well and quoted a large number so I declined them all. I knew the door seal needed one of those 5c grommets/white clips to repair it so questioned this with them when I picked the car up. Long story cut short...words exchanged in a firm but calm way with the service manager there, he conceeded that the door seal rubber replacement was unnecessary and innappropriate and he would be having a discussion with the mechanic who did the work and report. He would not admit that the other reports were not needed and I couldn't easily tell at the time. I confirmed this elsewhere later. No future business from me which was a shame because they were conveniently located.

[101RRS]

Reading on a lot of forums it would seem that the steering rack also needs to be added to the list of tie rods and ball joints. However I suspect that the rack needing work is a result of tie rods and ball joints not being done when required and then wearing the rack.

Thoughts?????

My car has now done 48,000km and other than a little harshness being felt through the steering wheel on acceleration all seems Ok on the road.

Offroad there is a little knocking in the steering as the wheels bounce off rocks (like the rack is a little loose) but as there are no symptoms on road, for the moment I will put it down to the natural play in the system but I am watching it.

Garry

[bbyer]

Reading on a lot of forums it would seem that the steering rack also needs to be added to the list of tie rods and ball joints. However I suspect that the rack needing work is a result of tie rods and ball joints not being done when required and then wearing the rack. Thoughts????? Garry Your theory has me thinking. It just may have some merit.

I have not yet had to replace the steering rack but tie rod ends were starting to seem like consumables - at every oil change like the oil pan plug. Well, not really, but replacing them is common to the point I am getting used to it. Given that I still have the original steering rack, maybe I should be happy as the more I think about it, your theory is starting to sound right on.

[Dirty3]

Offroad there is a little knocking in the steering as the wheels bounce off rocks (like the rack is a little loose) but as there are no symptoms on road, for the moment I will put it down to the natural play in the system but I am watching it.Garry

My steering rack needed replacing at 17000km's as it was loose like you describe. Has been ok since but my suspension bushes are due to be replaced under warranty (now 50K).

[stig0000]

who sayed that you can only fitted bushes to a arm once,;);) never herd that before,

but it is slightly more cost efective for both sides to replace the hole arms,

the tie rod joints sholdent ware out that fast,, there usely prity good,

[Mike_S]

Reading on a lot of forums it would seem that the steering rack also needs to be added to the list of tie rods and ball joints. However I suspect that the rack needing work is a result of tie rods and ball joints not being done when required and then wearing the rack.


Offroad there is a little knocking in the steering as the wheels bounce off rocks (like the rack is a little loose) but as there are no symptoms on road, for the moment I will put it down to the natural play in the system but I am watching it.

Garry

I've had everything bar the rack replaced on mine at least once and I'm about to replace the front arms to cure the knocking. With regard to your rattling, next time you're off road and the knocking presents itself, try pushing the steering wheel toward the dash. Mine had exactly this problem last year only it came about on rough potholed roads as well, exerting pressure on the wheel cured it, the solution was a new lower steering column shaft. As mine's already had the upper column replaced, only the rack is original.

[Normthe1]

Possibly slightly off topic, apologies if so...

I have just been told that my left lower control arm bushes are worn which would explain the quite pronounced steering pull to the left.

The D3 has 120k on it, but I bought it at 99k and have no idea if they had been previously replaced. Now I'm getting a bit excited that I may be able to get them covered by Allianz? They just kicked in for a recon tranny so maybe they are still in a generous mood?

The indy LR mechanic said it was the control arms bushes, but didn't say whether the ball joints needed doing as well. Does anyone have a success story about getting LR to change the older arms for the newer? Mine is an '05.

I'm also just getting over the quote from the Dealer for the 120k service. I have been outraged in the past but not quite like that for some time.

[Busman]

Ahh, the old Landie 100,000km syndrome rares it s ugly head:D
Yes, l replaced mine at around 135000kms.
The usual knocking in the front end is the easy way to tell.
Pretty easy fix, and not expensive to repair for once:p

[TELF RRC]

Just wondering what the early signs are?

My 08MY with 110k km is pulling to the left slightly and has a slight audible noise when going around roundabouts. I've had all four wheels aligned and balanced with no significant improvement.

I'm guessing this is a wheel bearing but the dealer says all is well and can't replicate the noise (albeit feint anyway but still noticeable to me).

As far as I know it hasn't had the ball joint replaced and from what I read above, being an 08MY it should be OK with these.

Neil

[stig0000]

As far as I know it hasn't had the ball joint replaced and from what I read above, being an 08MY it should be OK with these.

Neil

been a 08 it wont be,, done heaps of them,,,

the joints only realy show them selfs on bumps,, even pulling into a drive way will make them knock, noise may be wheels berings,,, not uncommen, same as the front diff

[Ashes]

My last report had "slight freeplay in front lower ball joints" and "slight freeplay in rack and pinion".
How critical is it to get these items fixed?
I have the knock sound when hitting bumps but other than that handling seems fine.

[Mully]

Hiya Ashes.... ball joints are not critical but you do need them sorted as the movement from the wear that results in the clunking can result in wear in other areas. Each clunk you hear is effectively a collision so there is a vibration transfer to go with it. The result will be overall front end wear often inclusive of steering components along with tyre wear and alignment issues etc.

Mine clunks but I'm not in a panic as it will be a full rebuild of the front end regardless. You can just replace the ball joints and get at least another 40+ thou or so out of them but the upgraded wishbones to get the larger ball joints is the best decision. Ball joints can then be replaced multiple times as required assuming they are done correctly each time in a non-destructive manner. :) They will at least last a lot longer being the upgraded size....

It is one of those jobs you will only be able to put off for so long.

Cheers!

[smwilk]

Hi there...

I asked my dealer for a quote to replace both lower arms. I have been quoted for ball joints and bushes $500 and labour $900. They said they are aware the ball joints are modified but dont appear to be larger. Said there is only one part number. They seemed to wonder why I would want the entire arm replaced.

does this quote seem reasonable?
Should I insist on the complete arms?
Is the new joint a new part number?

[Scouse]

Is the $900 labour just for the lower arm bushes & ball joints?
It's only a 3 hr maximum job for an experienced repairer.

It's sometimes cheaper to replace the arm assemblies rather than press in/out bushes & ball joints so get a quote for each type of repair if you can.

[bbyer]

Hi there... I asked my dealer for a quote to replace both lower arms. I have been quoted for ball joints and bushes $500 and labour $900. They said they are aware the ball joints are modified but don't appear to be larger. Said there is only one part number. They seemed to wonder why I would want the entire arm replaced. does this quote seem reasonable? Should I insist on the complete arms? Is the new joint a new part number? The ball joint design was improved for about model year 2008. Even if your D3 already has the newer design, given labour costs, the dealer comments still puzzle me.

In my case, I had the older design but regardless, I think that changing out the arms is with labour, both cheaper and easier. If you go back a couple of pages on this thread to post #9, you will see where I have provided the newer part numbers. If the dealer intends replacing the bushings as well, then for certain, labour will be less if the newer arms are installed. It costs the same to remove the old arms, and there are no bushing or ball joint remove and replace labour costs associated with the new arm as it is all in place. You will need a 4 wheel alignment however with the new arm installation; perhaps not, the other way.

Also there is an argument to say that the ball joints should not be replaced more than once on an existing arm. I assume however that this will be a first time replacement.

In summary, as above, get a price for new arms and labour, plus discuss wheel alignment requirements.

[Mike_S]

Agree with all of that, as the arms need to be removed to change the bushes it's a no brainer to just change the whole arm. I costed up the separate parts, they add up to almost the cost of a new arm so new ones it was for me.

Also, look at OEM rather than pattern. I've seen pattern parts on ebay etc for 50-70 GBP *more* than the OEM items. Don't forget you'll also most likely need new camber bolts to attach the arms & they're not cheap, cost me 70 quid just for the full set.

I've posted elsewhere about the price of these bits, but it's worth going to www.disco3.co.uk and getting hold of TLO (The Large One) for parts. Nick's the parts manager for Yeovil Land Rover (a main dealer) and will do parts at almost trade price & ship them. Given the exchange rate it might still be viable for you to go down that route, looking at my receipt the lower arms would set you back $360 plus shipping. Bear in mind 20% of that price is VAT, which you'll not pay.

[bbyer]

Don't forget you'll also most likely need new camber bolts to attach the arms & they're not cheap, cost me 70 quid just for the full set. Yes, and the bolts will probably be required regardless.

Even if you retain the old arms, new bolts will probably be needed if the bushings are also changed out. My dealers experience is that the old bolts are rusted and either have to be cut off to be removed or even if removable, would damage the new bushings, if reused.

Also if the plan was not to rebush, sometimes the A arm has to be removed to press out the old ball joint. In that case, same story. Also if the original estimate did not include the bolts, then guess what, a phone call to say it is going to cost more.

My dealer did reuse the bolt that held the bottom of the air spring assembly to the A arm, but installed new bushing bolts. There were no parts or labour cost surprises because practically everything was new.

[Mike_S]

I'd think the quickest way of changing them is to cut the bolts off anyway, I'm certain it'll need doing this way just looking at the corrosion on them. I'm no stranger to seized wishbone bolts given our 'other' car is a Triumph Spitfire, near on 20 years of ownership & 3 suspension rebuilds all requiring the bolts to be cut off, despite using copperslip on them !!

[smwilk]

Thx guys, the labour was for the whole job! I think I will go elsewhere, dealer really should be telling me this sort of stuff. I won't mention the contaminated coolant they sold me the other day!

[Preacher]

recently had my front end worked over - below is what was used
SuperPro Solution for Land Rover Discovery Series 3 (http://www.superpro.com.au/whats-new/blog/item/80-superpro-solution-for-land-rover-discovery-series-3)
Great service and very competative price.
Supplied and fitted by Horsepower factory - Ask for Mat (also a D3 owner)
8-10 Amberley Crescent
Dandenong VIC 3175
(03) 9793 1616

[CaverD3]

Do they make their own bushes or use the poly bushes.
Is the ride now harsher is so how much more so?

[Preacher]

I think the poly bushes
the ride is great - no difference EXCEPT no clunking

dj

[CaverD3]

What colour were the bushes? Red?

Poms had a few isues with ride and one with them sticking.
Maybe the newer ones are better.

Interesting to know how yours go longer term. Mine will no doubt need doing again. :angel:

[Graeme]

I think the poly bushes
the ride is great - no difference EXCEPT no clunking
What? No clunking? Its been a feature of my D4 since the day I drove it home!

[Timj]

Superpro bushes are made here in Brisbane (at least they used to be, they could of course be overseas now) and are a division of Fulcrum Suspension. They are very good quality bushes so it will be interesting to see how they go. They are usually blue rather than red. I have a set in the leaf springs of one of my S3 and they are so far going well.

TimJ.

[CaverD3]

Sounds like it may be better than Polly bushes red ones. :D

[ADMIRAL]

I would question the wisdom of using any polyurethane bush in the lower suspension arms of a D3 or 4. It is a personal preference, but I don't even like urethane in the leading arms of Patrols or Cruisers, and that is regardless of brand. Unless the manufacturer can provide you with data on the duro of their bush compared to another, don't read too much into the colour of the bush. Urethane is pretty much urethane. IMHO

[CaverD3]

Not reading anything into the colour except it is a different manufacturer from Poly Bushes. :D

[~Rich~]

In Toyota's & Nissan's if you wanted maximum wheel travel then the original rubber bushes where the way to go. The downside is that they chew out quite fast. The Poly bushes far out last the rubber ones but have less flex and a firmer ride. The D3/4 does not have a great amount of wheel travel anyway and the bushes are subjected to alot less twist than the Toyota's & Nissans because the control arms swing on a D3/4 while the radius arms swing and rotate on the Jap vehicles.
The poly bushes may in fact be fine for the D3/4 except for a firmer ride, this could be worth the trade off for a much longer service life.

[roamer]

What? No clunking? Its been a feature of my D4 since the day I drove it home!



Hi Graeme,
My D4 rattled and clunked, most noticable on dirt roads,from new.
Dealer finally changed ball joints and all is good now,but when they did ball joints, found that the left shocky assy was really stiff and hard, so replaced that as well.

One tick for Pacific LR, :BigThumb:

Especially since I'd done the GRR and Gregory NP prior. :D:D



Cheers Ken

[bradD3]

I was going to go with the Superpro bushes after replacing at 60K then second set failing at 25K but the dealer got the next replacement under warranty so I will see how they go this time.
The service manager talked them into lower ball joints as well, he's a good bloke.

Next time I will take out the extended warranty, it looks like it would pay for itself.

[Graeme]

Hi Graeme,
My D4 rattled and clunked, most noticable on dirt roads,from new.
Dealer finally changed ball joints and all is good now,but when they did ball joints, found that the left shocky assy was really stiff and hard, so replaced that as well.

One tick for Pacific LR, :BigThumb:

Especially since I'd done the GRR and Gregory NP prior. :D:D

The bushes on mine have been assessed as needing replacing and the dealer is sure the ball joints will need replacing too. Mine don't have the excuse of having been anywhere other than my driveway.

[trobbo]

I had the ball joints and steering rack replaced on mine at the last service. The report was the ball joints were only slightly worn and didn't have to be replaced but were showing signs of wear. Thinking that I had a timing belt replacement coming up I opted to change them at that service. $2500 later I picked up the car. Within a week the knock was back. The thought of what it is going to cost me this time scares me more than just a little bit.

[Mike_S]

Had all 4 lower arms replaced on my RRS last week, along with the anti roll bar bushes front & rear. Removing the rear arms also meant cutting off the drop links as they were seized, so they ended up being replaced as well.

The silence is fantastic :cool:

My rant for the day is with Land Rover. Use some bloody anti seize compound on bolts that are designed to be moved ffs (ie the camber bolts). Every bolt was seized solid and required the heavy use of the number 1 persuading stick wielded by a 25 stone man. Said persuading stick was also needed on the n/s cv joint to get it out of the hub, again a completely dry joint. So that got replaced as well :mad:

Interesting comment from the alignment place about the camber bolts, normally they can spend anything from 3-8 hours unseizing them so the suspension can be re-aligned. 8 hours !!!! Just buy new ones and hammer the old ones out, it didn't take 8 hours to change all the arms !!

Anyway, that's the first job of many completed.

Costs were as follows:

2 x OEM lower rear arms £182
2 x OEM lower front arms £240
2 x OEM rear drop links £48
Front & rear OEM anti roll bar bushes £42
1 x CV joint £75
1 x full set of bolts £70
1 x upper rear bush £28
1 x rear wheel bearing £46
10 hours labour
3 hours to re-align suspension.

1 x empty wallet :(