E10: Am I dreaming or is it better

[Cannon]

I usually run my 2003 V8 on Standard unleaded because the performance/economy difference of premium I find is not worth the extra cost.
I emailed the guys at MR Auto & asked if E10 would be OK to use.
They said it would, so coming home from the Sunny coast the other day I stopped at a BP & decided to give the E10 a go.
Well the difference is very noticable.
The engine seems to deliver power much more smoothly. The gear changes are smoother & the auto is locking up at about 50Km/hr insted of 60 ish.
So far I'm pleasantly surprised.
I haven't filled up again yet so the economy difference, if any, is still an unknown factor.
Anyone else had similar experience or am I dreamin' ;)

[PhilipA]

You are dreaming.
And all things being equal you will have a 6% economy loss.
( Ethanol has 60% of petrol calorific value x10% =6%)
Regards Philip A

[101RRS]

I think you are dreamin - you should have slightly lower power and slightly increased fuel consumption.

There should be no other issues or benefits.

Garry

[Tombie]

Placebo effect :cool:

Feels smoother because its making less power

[CJT]

I agree, E10 is not better and gives worse economy.

I run only BP Unltimate unless I have no choice and then I still try to get atleast standard 95 Premium.

[Cannon]

Thanks for the comments folks.

I guess I'll continue the live the dream until the next fill up:)

[Baffle]

You pumped hi octane by mistake :D:p:p

[Baffle]

Lucky it wasn't the d pump,:Just jokes :D( know a bloke who did that.

[dirtdodger]

I agree with most of what Cannon has experienced.

I run E10 in my 01 V8 D2 and it does run better.
The Bosch Motronics allows more ignition advance with E10 than if I run the junk unleaded.

The vehicle drives and accelerates better. (as expected with advanced ignition timing)...........Yes. I have proved it using Rovacom in real time tests.

Fuel economy is as one would expect a 2 ton petrol V8 to be.
Cost saving is about zero. Even when E10 is cheaper than unleaded.
As posted previously, there are less calories in a litre of E10 than a litre of unleaded. Therefore more E10 must be burned for the same power output. But the engine efficiency improves with more advance than what is allowed when running low octane fuel.............................................. ................

Let the endless ethanol debate continue.

Back in the real world, my vehicle is noticeably more responsive, but with no financial benefit.
I keep the tank near full, and it does not sit idle for long periods. So far, no problems running ethanol.

[CJT]

I am not to sure if this is correct or not.

However what i have been told with Ethanol fuel in Australia is that it is sugar cane based which does not burn as cleanly as the Ethanol fuel in the US which is wheat based.????

Might just be someone making things up, but I would have thought that ethanol being alcohol would burn better.

As I mentioned earlier though I just use 98 Octane.

[simonl8353]

I filled up with E10 this morning, cant say I notice any difference.

As usual, I do my research "after" I act :eek: and have found this web site and statement so I guess all ok.

from Ethanol E10 fuel - Can I use it ?, is it safe??. (http://www.onlinemechanical.net/ethanol-E10.html)

"Land Rover All Land Rover vehicles imported and sold by Land Rover Australia since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on unleaded petrol containing ethanol blended up to 10% (E10) provided that the fuel octane recommendations in the owners hand book are adhered to, to avoid any operational issues, the vehicles should be maintained in accordance with Land Rover servicing procedures using genuine Land Rover replacement parts.
In general, some pre - 1986 cars will operate on E10 ULP, however Land Rover recommends that they do not use ethanol blended petrol due to the aging of the vehicle fuel systems. It is important however that Land Rover vehicles with carburettors do not use ethanol blended petrol."

..bit of a bugger if you own a Porche :eek2:

[bee utey]

I am not to sure if this is correct or not.

However what i have been told with Ethanol fuel in Australia is that it is sugar cane based which does not burn as cleanly as the Ethanol fuel in the US which is wheat based.????

Might just be someone making things up, but I would have thought that ethanol being alcohol would burn better.

As I mentioned earlier though I just use 98 Octane.

Ethanol is ethanol: chemical formula C2H5OH. It's the "other ingredients" from refining that might make a difference if left in, not the ethanol.

[101RRS]

In general, some pre - 1986 cars will operate on E10 ULP, however Land Rover recommends that they do not use ethanol blended petrol due to the aging of the vehicle fuel systems. It is important however that Land Rover vehicles with carburettors do not use ethanol blended petrol."

I know the systems in my 101 are old so I always check that the ULP I use is not E10 however from the middle of the year all ULP in NSW will be E10 - I will then have to switch to Premium Unleaded - at 10mpg will hit the hip pocket but I will be running mainly on LPG - just refuel more often than switching to petrol.

Garry

[Cannon]

Thanks dirtdodger. :)

I've gotta say I'm enjoying driving with the E10 even more than with other fuels.

Although not as "punchy" as when using a premium fuel it is better than using normal unleaded.

I'll be posting back here with economy figures after I fill up next.

[bsperka]

E10 actually has about 3% less energy than petrol (E10 has 33.18 MJ/litre, petrol has 34.2MJ/litre = 2.83% difference). Some else indicates 6%, I don't understand how they get to this figure.

This is why, when it was introduced it was 3% cheaper. Back then, petrol was about $1 a litre (remember those days), so E10 was 97c /litre. The fuel companies have either kept the price difference about the same to petrol, or removed it.

One thing that most motorists (but few drivers) get confused about is octane - E10 has a higher octane rating. Motorists think octane = energy, whereas the octane that is being talked about is the octane rating, which is a measure for the anti-knocking properties of petrol. The octane rating is not directly related to the amount of octane contained in petrol. If you really want to go to sleep, read about the composition of petrol sometime. We burn a pretty complex chemical as a fuel. Premium petrols have a higher octane rating, but the other chemicals that make it better / behave differently are the big difference.

In theory and mostly in practice, when an electronically controlled engine goes closed loop, then the fuel economy can be better, as the ecu advances the engine until just before knock / detonation, and then retards it a bit. Closed loop driving is constant speed / open road driving, which allows the engine to run optimally, as it isn't changing speed so quickly, as in stop / start peak hour traffic, so you may pick up some economy here with a higher octane fuel (depends on how you drive it etc) .

E10 is being introduced to create an ethanol industry (sustain the cane farmers) in Qld - it has little to no environmental benefits, just some political and perhaps some feel good ones.

From an environmental pov, The yanks (California first, from recollection) have legislation that made adding an oxidising agent into the fuel a requirement. Unfortunately the first agent was linked to birth defects, destroying ground water etc, so ethanol is being used as an alternative. So the spin is "If it's good enough for them..."

There are debates about whether the energy content to create ethanol outweighs the energy content in ethanol, it may be more or marginal, but it's not environmentally friendly. But then you can argue that neither is petrol / diesel / lpg, so let's not go there.

Anyway, my two cents worth, which with rounding is.....

Cheers

[PhilipA]

Er who says that E10 is now higher octane than 91?

In the past this was so, but NSW has now mandated that all "standard" unleaded be E10. So there is no incentive for oil companies to add octane to their normal unleaded as a sales feature or in fact to have a 91 octane unleaded fuel. I recently went to a Woolies and there was no 91 unleaded available so it has started.

I will bet that the oil companies will now use lower octane base fuel before adding the ethanol to get 91 octane .

Not a word has been said by anyone and I recently asked a friend who was an Esso exec and is usually close to the industry, and he didn't know but if you were an oil company and the chance came to make more money what would you do?
I would be interested if anyone has any concrete info either way.

Regards Philip A

[PhilipA]

E10 actually has about 3% less energy than petrol (E10 has 33.18 MJ/litre, petrol has 34.2MJ/litre = 2.83% difference). Some else indicates 6%, I don't understand how they get to this figure


see Bioenergy Conversion Factors (http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/energy_conv.html)

LHV of Ethanol =21Mj per litre
LHV gasoline =32mj per litre

= 65% at 10% concentration 6.5% = 4.5% less all things being equal.
I am not a chemist and there may be some other complementary reaction going on but on the face of it we can split the difference.
Regards Philip A

[bsperka]

No problems on the maths calculations - depends on the figures used. We all know that ethanol has less energy, whatever the figure. The effect will show up in increased fuel consumption.

[PhilipA]

Except that 10-6.5 = 3.5 not 4.5 as I later realised.

So 3.5% it is.

Regards Philip A

[Cannon]

As promised, some economy figures:

Previous fill on Standard UL: 524Kms for 84l @ 16.03l/100Kms. This fill had a fair bit of Hway driving.

This fill E10 UL: 465km fo 80l @ 17.2l/100kms. Mostly urban driving very little on the Hway.

Not too much difference really, so with the better feel of the car (perceived or otherwise ;) ) I'll try E10 again.

I've got a fair bit of Hway driving coming up, so I'll see how the figures compare again.

Thanks to all who've offered their input so far:)

[CJT]

Here are some figures of my fuel usage;

Premium 98 (Highway Rockhampton to Brisbane) 612km for 85 litres, 13.9litres/100km

Premium 95 (All peak hour traffic Caboolture to Brisbane) 519km for 83 litres, 16.0litres/100km (This was this week from Sunday to Thursday)

My disco is a D2 4.0l V8 (high compression) Auto

Not to sure how much the extra accessorie weight will change these though and obviously if I drive with a heavy right foot I am lucky to get 400km out of a tank in the city traffic.

[Cannon]

14 or 15 l/100 was what i was getting when i bought it.

a 2' lift & roofrack have caused the use of more fuel....but who cares. if i want economy i drive my wife's jazz:)