Browns Gas, Please read before shooting .

[Bazzle218]

As stated, please read before shooting me down or replying with an opinion that I’m not interested in .
I don’t want to know about Flux Capacitors of dilithium crystals or your opinion of why it cant work or its snake oil. I have read with interest related posts yesterday on this forum which turned into a cat fight, which I am not seeking. I do not care if you’re a rocket scientist unless you were running one on your rover or other vehicle I am not seeking your opinion.
If you have fitted one then I would luv to hear you opinion, for or against. Given some of the attacks launched in previous posts about the subject matter I am more then happy to hear your views via pm, if you wish to remain anonymous to avoid ridicule
My question: Has anyone fitted a Browns gas system and do you think it was a benefit to the running of your vehicle.
This is not an attack on anyone. I just want a sensible adult answer to my simple question. :D

[p38arover]

I just want a sensible adult answer to my simple question. :D

But will you accept such a reply?

[Bazzle218]

I am most definitely happy for any responce. To clarify I dont have one, I dont sell them. Just surfing the forums yesterday and read some old threads. I dont recall one responce where someone said I had one fitted and they dont work. plenty of arguments why they are rubbish. I stand corrected if i missed one. Please dont take get my inital forum the wrong way no insult to flux capaciters or dilithium crystals intended. ;) Live long and prosper. :twisted:

[PhilipA]

The problem is Bazzle , that opinions/testimonials are not worth anything without objective backup like dyno sheets , measured fuel consumption etc by a trusted authority eg RACV, NRMA.

I bought a Hiclone on the sworn testimony of a friend who was a tech and I thought rational human being. He SWORE that he had got 25MPG from his RRC after fitting a Hiclone and the torque was better blah blah blah.

Ahh, it was not to be. EXACTLY NO DIFFERENCE.

So without some detailed before and after dyno figures etc by a NATA accredited lab, I would have no belief in anything anyone said about something as emotion laden as Brown's Gas.

Regards Philip A

[Blknight.aus]

or replying with an opinion that I’m not interested in .


What exactly did you want the replied opinion to be so that we can all write what you want to hear?.


The logic behind why browns gas would work on a diesel engine in itself is sound, after all its the same basic concept as lpg fumigation and we know that that works (when its set up properly) and lets a turbo diesel engine make more power.

Providing you had an external source for the browns gas it would work.

But I bet your looking at one of those hyclone/fuel polariser/100mpg Carby/snake oil type website crackpot theories where you plug this magical device onto your engine and its electrical system and viola via the magic of internet fairy bulldust you can now get and addition 40% power while burning 80% less fuel and emitting 135.555% less carbon dioxide. But thats not all if you order in the next 20 minutes we'll send you 2 and with both installed your engine will become so effecient that it will not only triple the above figures it will also clean your engine oil, invert the fuel combustion process by forcing your vehicle to comply with the latest in Warnexpolsionthlapthy thoery so that your engine not only makes fuel it will suck in greenhouse gasses and polution, and exhaust pure oxygen, butterflies and rose petals. Hell we'll also chuck in a drip tray, a set of steak knives and a manual that if followed to the exacting standards it lays out will further increase your fuel effeciency. On top of all of that if you're not totally happy with your results after 30 days you can send it all back and we'll refund your money. (well ok most of it, we'll keep the exorbitant postage and handling charge we'll put on, a pre determined hire usage charge and the cost of the free things we sent you).

Sound familiar?

Ok now that I'm done being sarcastic about it. They dont work. and heres why its a little thing called entropy or thermodynamics or the conservation of energy, which ever of those descriptions floats your boat.

the idea we're chasing is "using electricity we can break water to make browns gas, burning browns gas makes heat engergy, by converting heat energy to physical motion we can spin a generator which makes electricity, by making electricity we can break water to make browns gas, burning browns gas...."

sounds like a recipy for perpetual motion when its put that way doesnt it?

and thats why it doesnt, in fact cant, work the way its described on all those wonderful sites.

Making enough browns gas to even assist an engine to run properly will consume more energy than you can liberate from the quantity of gas you generate.

OR

It takes more energy to make a liter of browns gas than a liter of browns gas generates when burnt.

and thats before you even get to the fact that assuming browns gas had a perfect entropy the way that they are doing it involves no fewer than 3 "energy state" (electrical-chemical, chemical-thermal, thermal-kenetic, kenetic-electrical) changes and each one of those has an inherent loss.

and thats before you consider the inherent losses involved in the friction of an engine OR the fact that you're asking the engine to do work which consume power out of the combustion process.

[clean32]

Blknight.aus is 1/2 correct but then he is correct in the fact that it will not work but his reasons why are not correct.

The addition of hydrogen to the combustion chamber or as an additive to a fuel (which the manufactures do anyway)

the up side is and a fuel additive it enhances the burn of your diesel fuel is not a fuel in its self therefore the how much energy used to make the stuff vers how much you get out of it is not applicable. it would be if you were trying to run a motor solely on their fuel ( perpetual motion).

The stumbling block comes in the manufacture of the gas. in this case you used the name browns gas. Brown used a different chemical to assist the electrolysis, I assume that you have been looking on the net and therefore are looking at just adding some caustic soda? is not browns gas.

the gas by nature is hydrogen and oxygen, perfectly mixed to make a nice bag, in short where eve you set this unit up in your vehicle you are installing a bomb, secondly to produce enough gas requires larger plates than is usably shown in these internet scams, for a 200 300 tdi think 4 tuck batteries. then you have to have some where to store that gas as production will never be inline with demand, flash back system, water safeguard etc etc, safety devices to prevent over pressurizing as well an meting systems etc etc

So to get this to work is not quite as simple as you are lead to believe.

having said that, you could set your gas production at home then compress it in to a tank, run the thing of solar? But then you could do away with the solar and just chuck an few handfuls of aluminum in with your caustic soda and compress that. or even you could get some aluminum welding wire run a current though it while submerged etc or even better set out a mirror array to focus the sun on to a vessel full of waste oil and plastic so that it heats up to about 780 deg then condense it at say 400 deg pesto you have diesel etc

should i go on?


oh and yes i have built a few of these units and yes they can assist but never in the manor or the way that the internet seems to claim. My largest system consisted of 52 plates sandwidged together, problems with water flow and self adjusting power supply plagued me

[Bazzle218]

Well it looks like i have opened a can of worms. Fellas Just looking for an answer on the question.

(My question: Has anyone fitted a Browns gas system and do you think it was a benefit to the running of your vehicle.)

I thank you for the responses but its a Simple two part question

1. Have you fitted one, Possible answers ( yes or no). If no, no further responce required.2. Was there any benefit, Possible answers ( yes or no & your opinion)

Folks if you have not fitted one, why reply?

Please i'm not trying to be Martyr or a Smart arse. Its like telling someone how to ride a horse when you have never been near one or read about how to do it in a book;)

[circlework]

You really don't think that after opening said can o' worms, someone will actually own up to having tried one??? [bigrolf]

[Sleepy]

No
No

[drifter]

No
No



what he said :D

[ScrubPleb]

1. Yes. 186 Holden engine in 1980.
2. No.

[midal]

I'm almost too scared to ask....what's Brown's Gas:confused:

[clean32]

1. yes
2. no no no no no yes but by then it was to big and complecated

[Blknight.aus]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]you have to have some where to store that gas as production will never be inline with demand

urm, wouldnt that be the same as saying "the entropic losses means you cant make enough gas to meet the power requirments?" which could also be costrued as "you cant make it work in a mobile application"

none of the other problems mentioned are serious problems... just cases for well designed pumbing and taknage.

but I digress....

you're not adding it to the fuel, its not a petrol engine we're talking about its a diesel. its being done to get the fire going in the piston prior to the diesel turning up. the same principle as PRIME injection (which the tdi 300 has anyway) and lpg gas fumigation.

at the end of the day, even in the miniscule amounts that you need to make that work you dont beat the entropy of the system the extra power needed to make the browns gas is still more than the additional power you get from the browns gas doing its bit in the combustion chamber.

its like saying "by doing this your engine will make make an additional 2hp but you need 3hp of power to make it work" you can debunk the greenies as well in reality their version of "it makes your engines emmissions 10% cleaner" is easily rebutted with "it makes the engine 10% cleaner but it needs to burn 12% more fuel to do the same amount of work" (the percentages in that statement are just for example and not actual figures) so its making 2% more emissions than it was before"


Browns gas is the generic name for 2 parts hydrogen 1 part oxygen thats just waiting for a spark to turn it all into water. Its also roughly known as coal gas.

[d@rk51d3]

I'm almost too scared to ask....what's Brown's Gas:confused:

It's what comes before you "follow through". :D

[clean32]

urm, wouldnt that be the same as saying "the entropic losses means you cant make enough gas to meet the power requirments?" which could also be costrued as "you cant make it work in a mobile application".

uumm no that is not what i am saying, but then to say the sum is greater than the 2 parts is not correct either but what we are saying is that the efficiency of the burn is improved which out weighs the energy consumed to produe the gas in the first place


none of the other problems mentioned are serious problems... just cases for well designed pumbing and taknage. .

True but then you are starting to look at some reasonably complex control systems


but I digress....

you're not adding it to the fuel, its not a petrol engine we're talking about its a diesel. its being done to get the fire going in the piston prior to the diesel turning up. the same principle as PRIME injection (which the tdi 300 has anyway) and lpg gas fumigation. .

sorry wrong, the gas is in such a week concentration that concentration alone will not ignite it, but for a better understanding look up how oil is cracked and how hydrogen is added and why. its basically the same reaction.


at the end of the day, even in the miniscule amounts that you need to make that work you dont beat the entropy of the system the extra power needed to make the browns gas is still more than the additional power you get from the browns gas doing its bit in the combustion chamber.
its like saying "by doing this your engine will make make an additional 2hp but you need 3hp of power to make it work" you can debunk the greenies as well in reality their version of "it makes your engines emmissions 10% cleaner" is easily rebutted with "it makes the engine 10% cleaner but it needs to burn 12% more fuel to do the same amount of work" (the percentages in that statement are just for example and not actual figures) so its making 2% more emissions than it was before".

As I wrote above this is not the case. It would be if you viewed the gas as an additional fuel but in practice it is not, much better to look at it as a fuel additive, may help in getting your head around it.
as for the greenies NO emotions are reduced


Browns gas is the generic name for 2 parts hydrogen 1 part oxygen thats just waiting for a spark to turn it all into water. Its also roughly known as coal gas.

actually its not, browns gas displays quite different properties to simple HHO. That is why is is called browns gas as a process discovered by Yull brown. It is not Yull browns prosses that is used in these internet systems. Although these internet systems seem to call all gas made from water electrolyses Browns Gas. lol add a bit of salt to the water and you will get chlorine, try running that though your motor.

[p38arover]

I'm almost too scared to ask....what's Brown's Gas:confused:



Oxyhydrogen is often mentioned in conjunction with devices that claim to operate a vehicle using water as a fuel, or that burn the gas in torches for welding and cutting at outlandish temperatures, sometimes under the name "Brown's Gas" after fraudster Yull Brown who advocated such devices, or "HHO gas" after the claims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruggero_Santilli#HHO_gas) of fringe physicistRuggero Santilli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruggero_Santilli).

Obviously well thought of.

[clean32]

Obviously well thought of.

LOL yes i forgot about that. Yull Brown did invent a new way of electronically splitting water into hydrogen and water, from memory he used a metal oxide in the water. The gas this produced was a bit different to what is normally produced when using electrolysis. the fraud bit cam in when he tried to get investors to back him in producing a system where an internal combustion motor would run on his gas while being produced by a generator being powered by the same motor. This is where many people get stuck when talking about browns gas. on the good side he didn’t rip to many people of and as it turn out his new way of producing his new gas was quite efficient not only was it a rather cheaper way of producing gas ( electrolysis) but the gas burnt with a theoretical no upper limit to temperature. it also has become the main method of producing Heavy water

as opposed to using sodium in the water to produce gas, this is hh0 but not browns gas. Burns slower and needs more electricity to produce.

[F4Phantom]

I am very skeptical of all these devices. BUT one day I got a fitch for about $450. I put it on my 2.5L diesel and got an instant 7% economy gain. I ran it several months. Being a skeptic of the unit I took it off and my records showed the 7% went away. After about a month I put it on again and got the 7% back. Anyway ACA did a test with the fitch and also got 7%. I think this was pure coincidence as I doubt all cars would give exactly 7%.

Anyway I will probably get another one, but its not worth doing unless your engine is running well, good injectors, filters, fluids, pump tuned etc.

I dont know how the fitch works but the guy who I got it off was a uni lecturer in chemistry and said it breaks large carbon chains into smaller ones making the fuel more volatile. Makes some sense as I have left petrol in a container for a long time and found the smaller chains over a few months evaporate away leaving the longer less volatile ones. The result is your ride on mower wont start on it because the fuel wont explode easily, its sort of part way to becoming more like diesel. Perhaps the fitch makes the diesel closer to petrol.

[BMKal]

But I bet your looking at one of those hyclone/fuel polariser/100mpg Carby/snake oil type website crackpot theories where you plug this magical device onto your engine and its electrical system and viola via the magic of internet fairy bulldust you can now get and addition 40% power while burning 80% less fuel and emitting 135.555% less carbon dioxide. But thats not all if you order in the next 20 minutes we'll send you 2 and with both installed your engine will become so effecient that it will not only triple the above figures it will also clean your engine oil, invert the fuel combustion process by forcing your vehicle to comply with the latest in Warnexpolsionthlapthy thoery so that your engine not only makes fuel it will suck in greenhouse gasses and polution, and exhaust pure oxygen, butterflies and rose petals. Hell we'll also chuck in a drip tray, a set of steak knives and a manual that if followed to the exacting standards it lays out will further increase your fuel effeciency. On top of all of that if you're not totally happy with your results after 30 days you can send it all back and we'll refund your money. (well ok most of it, we'll keep the exorbitant postage and handling charge we'll put on, a pre determined hire usage charge and the cost of the free things we sent you).

Dunno about all the other devices being discussed on here - but THIS one definitely works.

I got one of these as a gift when I bought a set of steak knives from DANOZ Direct that was advertised on a late night TV show - and I'm now selling diesel fuel to BP. We are currently looking at ways to collect the rose petals from the exhaust to sell to a local perfume manufacturer, and seeking expressions of interest from anyone who may have an environmentally sensitive use for the butterflies that we are also collecting.

I hold a post graduate diploma in Warnexpolsionthlapthy and can attest to the validity of this theory. The fact that this theory has not already been put into wide commercial use is purely due to the conspiracy of the oil companies, as we all know. :angel:

[digger]

Dunno about all the other devices being discussed on here - but THIS one definitely works.

I got one of these as a gift when I bought a set of steak knives from DANOZ Direct that was advertised on a late night TV show - and I'm now selling diesel fuel to BP. We are currently looking at ways to collect the rose petals from the exhaust to sell to a local perfume manufacturer, and seeking expressions of interest from anyone who may have an environmentally sensitive use for the butterflies that we are also collecting.

I hold a post graduate diploma in Warnexpolsionthlapthy and can attest to the validity of this theory. The fact that this theory has not already been put into wide commercial use is purely due to the conspiracy of the oil companies, as we all know. :angel:


and I'm his SA/NT agent!!!:D:D:D

(I also sell rocking horse poo and hens teeth on weekends)

[Blknight.aus]

uumm no that is not what i am saying, but then to say the sum is greater than the 2 parts is not correct either but what we are saying is that the efficiency of the burn is improved which out weighs the energy consumed to produe the gas in the first place

Fair Enough, prove it. get me some dyno figures from the flywheel and the wattage draw on a system that works as advertised then have that independantly verified and I'll fly over with a team of Engineers to double check it all. If it all checks out I'll think about setting up every hoseable diesel on the forum with it at my cost


True but then you are starting to look at some reasonably complex control systems

Nothing complicated about a 2 compartment tank (one if you want to do it the dangerous way), float level, gas flow regulator, flash arrestor and a pressure dependant Electronic control for the power supply, I bet my old man could do the electronics in a night, his mate brian could make the tanks at the same time and I could have it all plumbed onto a landy by lunch time. IF it actually worked.



sorry wrong, the gas is in such a week concentration that concentration alone will not ignite it
keh? a weak concentration wont light... Best not tell that to rudolph diesel, try this. in a 5m3 cube filled with pure O2 vent 1l of hydrogen and light a match. now do it with 6l (if you survive the result of the first weak mix and theres anything left of the cube). IF you're game enough to try that on, do it with the same gas mixes compresed at an effective ratio of about say 30:1 (roughly 2/3rds the peak effective compression ratio of a stock td5 with a full head of steam) please let me know when you plan on trying this so I can set up the high speed cameras and stand WAAAAYYY over there or at least find someone I dont like that I can stand behind.



but for a better understanding look up how oil is cracked and how hydrogen is added and why. its basically the same reaction.
all of which is great, how much power does it take to do that? and where do you plan on getting that power from?


As I wrote above this is not the case. It would be if you viewed the gas as an additional fuel but in practice it is not, much better to look at it as a fuel additive, may help in getting your head around it.

so your putting the hydrogen in the fuel tank then? and if its not an additional fuel source then whats it doing in the chemical reaction. Just sitting there twiddling its lonely electron? Hydrogen burns, diesel burns, put them together just right and they both burn together, addative or additional you still have to make the stuff and that takes power, more power than you liberate from doing it in the first place. You do get a cleaner burn in the proccess of it though. Its the same smoke and mirrors dance of the LPG fumigation Sure diesel consumption goes down or power goes up OR a combination of both But almost no-one will tell you what the instant combined consumption of both is.

Dont get me wrong, HHO fumigation hell even plain old hydrogen fumigation works in and of itself (as does LPG fumigation) but not in a self contained way which is what this is all about.



as for the greenies NO emotions are reduced



actually its not, browns gas displays quite different properties to simple HHO. That is why is is called browns gas as a process discovered by Yull brown. It is not Yull browns prosses that is used in these internet systems. Although these internet systems seem to call all gas made from water electrolyses Browns Gas. lol add a bit of salt to the water and you will get chlorine, try running that though your motor.

have an eyeball through here...

browns gas, What is it? (http://www.brownsgas.com/hhogas.html)

which was the top page that came up when I typed up browns gas into google.com... dont forget that on that page is all the crackpot links as well to all the government conspiracy theorys and my personal favorite the electrolyser carburetor.

interestingly in my auto complete as I was typing in the word gas it also had words like scam and hoax.. Heres the top 3 links to when I let it auto complete on hoax.

snopes.com: Magical water fuel: A successful hoax? Or, what's the catch? (http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=56;t=002848)

The Millennial Files Beware of Browns Gas/HHO and Dennis Klein hoaxes (http://www.mmmfiles.com/mmm/index.php/2007-05-28/70/)

Make: Online : Running an Automobile on Hydrogen Using Water (http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2005/06/running_an_automobile_on.html)

and the word Scam

Brown's Gas information (http://www.phact.org/e/bgas.htm)

Water4gas Scam Reviewed | Auto-Facts.org (http://www.auto-facts.org/water4gas-scam.html)

Denny Klein - Fuel from Water - Is this a scam? - JREF Forum

Now before you head over and read all of those I need to warn you put your advertising codswollop o meter on the same setting that I use when I hear transit and ford 110 drivers talking about "Stall Control" and actually READ all of the page and All of the links Then make a decision.

While you're at it,. I can do you a nice deal on a hyclone (Legally distinct from hi-clones and hiclones which dont work)and a positive static charge airflow electron stripper for your turbo diesel that will half your fuel consumption providing you follow some pretty simple operating instructions .

[PhilipA]

I am very skeptical of all these devices. BUT one day I got a fitch for about $450.

Being a sucker for these things, I wanted to test a Fitch but didn't want to commit the $450 to a Fitch which is after all a few tin pellets in a $10 housing.
So I paid $40 or whatever for a set for my Honda 900 Hornet which I rode to work every day for 4 years over the same route.

NIX NADA NIL NOTHING .
It got 5.3L 100Km in summer and 5.4 l per 100Km in winter before for 2 years and the same after for 2 years. 5% would have been easily and instantly noticed.

Regards Philip A

[steve_35]

Hey Bazzle218 (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members/bazzle218.html)

I asked once are Diesel and Petrol transfer cases the same in a Discovery

someone actually asked what kind of vehicle do i drive before i answer that

it went on and on and on trying to make me feel stupid or just outright rude responses
So i posted leave your hands on your bits and dont bother posting if you caant help

i got a warning for being rude to others

I also got a warning for typing !@#$% instead of a swear word

But trying to be a smart arse is ok

[Bazzle218]

Steve

Mate I lost a point ? for Using ****** instead of smart arse and pixies changed it to smart arse. Anyway live and learn I suppose, got me stuffed?

BAz:p ( probaly loose another point)

[clean32]

No im not going to bite, you have a happy life with your best friend Google

By the way im just back from playing on a LR playground ( where dealers take new owners of defenders and discos inluding RR and teach then what buttons to push) Heaps of fun. bush tracks sandy hills,loverly camping spot.

what did you do appart from play with google?

I did say have a look at how Crude and waste oil is cracked, you didnt do that did you




Fair Enough, prove it. get me some dyno figures from the flywheel and the wattage draw on a system that works as advertised then have that independantly verified and I'll fly over with a team of Engineers to double check it all. If it all checks out I'll think about setting up every hoseable diesel on the forum with it at my cost

Nothing complicated about a 2 compartment tank (one if you want to do it the dangerous way), float level, gas flow regulator, flash arrestor and a pressure dependant Electronic control for the power supply, I bet my old man could do the electronics in a night, his mate brian could make the tanks at the same time and I could have it all plumbed onto a landy by lunch time. IF it actually worked.

keh? a weak concentration wont light... Best not tell that to rudolph diesel, try this. in a 5m3 cube filled with pure O2 vent 1l of hydrogen and light a match. now do it with 6l (if you survive the result of the first weak mix and theres anything left of the cube). IF you're game enough to try that on, do it with the same gas mixes compresed at an effective ratio of about say 30:1 (roughly 2/3rds the peak effective compression ratio of a stock td5 with a full head of steam) please let me know when you plan on trying this so I can set up the high speed cameras and stand WAAAAYYY over there or at least find someone I dont like that I can stand behind.


all of which is great, how much power does it take to do that? and where do you plan on getting that power from?

so your putting the hydrogen in the fuel tank then? and if its not an additional fuel source then whats it doing in the chemical reaction. Just sitting there twiddling its lonely electron? Hydrogen burns, diesel burns, put them together just right and they both burn together, addative or additional you still have to make the stuff and that takes power, more power than you liberate from doing it in the first place. You do get a cleaner burn in the proccess of it though. Its the same smoke and mirrors dance of the LPG fumigation Sure diesel consumption goes down or power goes up OR a combination of both But almost no-one will tell you what the instant combined consumption of both is.

Dont get me wrong, HHO fumigation hell even plain old hydrogen fumigation works in and of itself (as does LPG fumigation) but not in a self contained way which is what this is all about.


have an eyeball through here...

browns gas, What is it? (http://www.brownsgas.com/hhogas.html)

which was the top page that came up when I typed up browns gas into google.com... dont forget that on that page is all the crackpot links as well to all the government conspiracy theorys and my personal favorite the electrolyser carburetor.

interestingly in my auto complete as I was typing in the word gas it also had words like scam and hoax.. Heres the top 3 links to when I let it auto complete on hoax.

snopes.com: Magical water fuel: A successful hoax? Or, what's the catch? (http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=56;t=002848)

The Millennial Files Beware of Browns Gas/HHO and Dennis Klein hoaxes (http://www.mmmfiles.com/mmm/index.php/2007-05-28/70/)

Make: Online : Running an Automobile on Hydrogen Using Water (http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2005/06/running_an_automobile_on.html)

and the word Scam

Brown's Gas information (http://www.phact.org/e/bgas.htm)

Water4gas Scam Reviewed | Auto-Facts.org (http://www.auto-facts.org/water4gas-scam.html)

Denny Klein - Fuel from Water - Is this a scam? - JREF Forum (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php't=56705)

Now before you head over and read all of those I need to warn you put your advertising codswollop o meter on the same setting that I use when I hear transit and ford 110 drivers talking about "Stall Control" and actually READ all of the page and All of the links Then make a decision.

While you're at it,. I can do you a nice deal on a hyclone (Legally distinct from hi-clones and hiclones which dont work)and a positive static charge airflow electron stripper for your turbo diesel that will half your fuel consumption providing you follow some pretty simple operating instructions .

[Blknight.aus]

What this easter weekend? nothing much, fixed some pc's, drove 1400Km, serviced a car, did an easter treasure hunt with my son, cleaned up the in laws spare room, fixed an austar install, prepped my portable HD's with all the docs and vids for a 6 week field trip, helped out a couple of breakdowns, moved some furniture from toowomba to charleville, recovered a toyota and boat trailer and welded up some railings.

you know the usual quiet weekend.



theres no need to look up why they add hydrogen during the cracking process, its part of the de-sulphation process as well as promoting the cracking process....of heavier hydrocarbons into lighter ones like say diesel, petrol and lpg

but then youd have to ask why would you want to seperate your diesel into lighter components in the combustion chamber where its already busy doing its thing converting chemical energy into mechanical energy? or are you trying to desulpherise already low sulpher fuel? ( I wont go into how even if you managed to crack the fuel down in the fraction of the time you have availalbe when its injected BTDC that you'd wind up with horrific knock issues from the lighter grade fuels being much more prone to preignition when exposed to heat and pressure)

[clean32]

What this easter weekend? nothing much, fixed some pc's, drove 1400Km, serviced a car, did an easter treasure hunt with my son, cleaned up the in laws spare room, fixed an austar install, prepped my portable HD's with all the docs and vids for a 6 week field trip, helped out a couple of breakdowns, moved some furniture from toowomba to charleville, recovered a toyota and boat trailer and welded up some railings.

you know the usual quiet weekend.



theres no need to look up why they add hydrogen during the cracking process, its part of the de-sulphation process as well as promoting the cracking process....of heavier hydrocarbons into lighter ones like say diesel, petrol and lpg

but then youd have to ask why would you want to seperate your diesel into lighter components in the combustion chamber where its already busy doing its thing converting chemical energy into mechanical energy? or are you trying to desulpherise already low sulpher fuel? ( I wont go into how even if you managed to crack the fuel down in the fraction of the time you have availalbe when its injected BTDC that you'd wind up with horrific knock issues from the lighter grade fuels being much more prone to preignition when exposed to heat and pressure)

uumm mate your a cracker, you may have looked it up but you have no understanding

part of the de-sulphation process, HA HA HA[bigrolf][bigrolf]

seperate your diesel into lighter components [bigrolf][bigrolf]

you should get a job as a PRman for the sicentology bunch

[Blknight.aus]

we'll just forget that I asked someone who works at a refinery then shall we? (which is why I didnt look it up)


whats your explanation then

[clean32]

we'll just forget that I asked someone who works at a refinery then shall we? (which is why I didnt look it up)


whats your explanation then

well atleast you have admited you doint know. so why all the posts??

any way who would you ask at a refinary? a welder? maybe a driver? better still the guy who sits in a box at the gate[bigrolf][bigrolf]

[Blknight.aus]

how about the guy who does FQC for amberly...

but you still seem to be effectively dodging the opportunity to answer the question yourself.

[clean32]

how about the guy who does FQC for amberly...

but you still seem to be effectively dodging the opportunity to answer the question yourself.

nope i anwerd the question, you just cant understand it. i suspect that you doint want to understand looking at your fuzzy logic

but then it much more fun to bate and move the spoon in the pot aye

[Blknight.aus]

precisely where did you answer the question?

[Sleepy]

The irresistible force meets the immovable object.https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[clean32]

The irresistible force meets the immovable object.http://www.majhost.com/gallery/DanElHombre/smilies/popcorn.gif

science meets the fisherman
:D:D

[Ferret]

science meets the fisherman
:D:D

Please tell me the science behind the bold items in your earlier quote.


Yull Brown did invent a new way of electronically splitting water into hydrogen and water, from memory he used a metal oxide in the water. The gas this produced was a bit different to what is normally produced when using electrolysis.

<snip>

.... and as it turn out his new way of producing his new gas was quite efficient not only was it a rather cheaper way of producing gas ( electrolysis) but the gas burnt with a theoretical no upper limit to temperature.

[clean32]

Please tell me the science behind the bold items in your earlier quote.
Originally Posted by clean32 https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/08/768.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/102077-browns-gas-please-read-before-shooting-post1220103.html#post1220103)
Yull Brown did invent a new way of electronically splitting water into hydrogen and water, from memory he used a metal oxide in the water. The gas this produced was a bit different to what is normally produced when using electrolysis.


different gases and gases with different properties can be produced by electrolysis, for example chlorine and hydrogen if salt is added to the water. Most of these internet systems use caustic soda in the water, this will give a normal hho split. Yull Brown used a metal in solution. it may be electrolysis of water but with out adding something to help carry the current in the water the possess becomes very slow and relatively inefficient.
<snip>

.... and as it turn out his new way of producing his new gas was quite efficient not only was it a rather cheaper way of producing gas ( electrolysis) but the gas burnt with a theoretical no upper limit to temperature.

No this is the interesting bit about browns gas and why it was poplar with welding different materials at very high temperatures. Now when we say burn in reference to browns Gas we actually mean implode, i.e. it gets smaller not larger. Now there are 3 parts to answering your question.
1 the flame has not the requirement to Push the already burnt gasses out of the way as it is with a normal flame. Effectively the flame creates a vacuum around it.
2 as there are a vacuum heat will not radiate out at the same speed as what you would normally expect from a normal flame.
3 because the burn rate or the reaction of the gases to return to a normal state is much quicker and that it creates a vacuum around itself and that most of energy produced remains close. This has an expediential effect.

On a more practical side, back in the days when I was welding fork tines I used 3 LPG bottles and 2 oxygen bottles running though a single torch to heat the tines before welding. This took most of the morning. These were replaced with a browns gas generator that took about 30 minutes to heat up a tine. we actually had to stop using it because the heat was to localized and detrimental to the process but the amount of energy produced from a small box was amazing. How ever in the original context of this thread totally useless for running a car on.

[miky]

Folks if you have not fitted one, why reply?



This is just too easy, even I can answer that one:

Because we CAN!!!!! :D

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Hey Bazzle218 (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members/bazzle218.html)

I asked once are Diesel and Petrol transfer cases the same in a Discovery

someone actually asked what kind of vehicle do i drive before i answer that

it went on and on and on trying to make me feel stupid or just outright rude responses
So i posted leave your hands on your bits and dont bother posting if you caant help

i got a warning for being rude to others

I also got a warning for typing !@#$% instead of a swear word

But trying to be a smart arse is ok


Steve

Mate I lost a point ? for Using ****** instead of smart arse and pixies changed it to smart arse. Anyway live and learn I suppose, got me stuffed?

BAz:p ( probaly loose another point)



MOD HAT ON

If you pair have ANY concerns please contact a member of the MOD team.

If not,,,,,,,

[bee utey]

I found this link in a Silicon Chip magazine (1/09) about hydrogen enhancement:
Green Car Congress: Hydrogen-Enhanced Combustion Engine Could Improve Gasoline Fuel Economy by 20% to 30% (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/11/hydrogenenhance.html)
It seems to show that in order to benefit from hydrogen you need a very high compression/ultra lean condition before you can improve efficiency on a spark ignition engine. So no luck to backyard dabblers.

And now, for those who make claims about Browns Gas, namely HHO, how would the molecule form? From my chemistry lessons hydrogen has a single valence electron and so can only form a single chemical bond with one atom. Oxygen has two valence holes to bond with hydrogen which makes H2O or H-O-H the default molecule. For H-H-O to be stable compared with traditional ol' H2O would be a miracle indeed. HO-HO-HO indeed:D

[JohnF]

I have met people who ran their cars on 80% water/20% petrol, so I believe irt can work. Last guy who did it, run for a cople of months, then removed his homemade unit as it backfired, and was afraid he may take out the whole town of Casino where he lived, if he had an explosion.

I was seriously thinking of doing it myself, but got a deisel instead.

[Blknight.aus]

I found this link in a Silicon Chip magazine (1/09) about hydrogen enhancement:
Green Car Congress: Hydrogen-Enhanced Combustion Engine Could Improve Gasoline Fuel Economy by 20% to 30% (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/11/hydrogenenhance.html)
It seems to show that in order to benefit from hydrogen you need a very high compression/ultra lean condition before you can improve efficiency on a spark ignition engine. So no luck to backyard dabblers.

And now, for those who make claims about Browns Gas, namely HHO, how would the molecule form? From my chemistry lessons hydrogen has a single valence electron and so can only form a single chemical bond with one atom. Oxygen has two valence holes to bond with hydrogen which makes H2O or H-O-H the default molecule. For H-H-O to be stable compared with traditional ol' H2O would be a miracle indeed. HO-HO-HO indeed:D

browns gas is written up, traditionaly as HHO. but it also appears as HOH and occasionally as OHH and refers to the quantities of the gasses in the mix before they get kablooied into H2O. once you start the kablooie process thats when the valencies count untill then you can express any combination of gasses in any way that you like.

[bee utey]

browns gas is written up, traditionaly as HHO. but it also appears as HOH and occasionally as OHH and refers to the quantities of the gasses in the mix before they get kablooied into H2O. once you start the kablooie process thats when the valencies count untill then you can express any combination of gasses in any way that you like.

OK so Browns gas is basically the reaction result 2H2O = 2H2 + O2 from electrolysed water molecules .

[Blknight.aus]

in the instance of this thread yes. Browns gas is the result of electrolyzing water into its component parts.

In reality anything that you do that comes up with 2 parts hydrogen and one part oxygen gives you whats known as browns gas.

[dullbird]

MOD HAT ON

If you pair have ANY concerns please contact a member of the MOD team.


If not,,,,,,,

have yourself a concrete cupcake:D:wasntme:

[Blknight.aus]

in the instance of this thread yes. Browns gas is the result of electrolyzing water into its component parts.

In reality anything that you do that comes up with 2 parts hydrogen and one part oxygen gives you whats known as browns gas.

OF course the missing part of that first sentance should be

Browns gas is the result of electrolyzing water into its component parts in one compartment..

If you seperate it off its just plain old hydrogen and oxygen.


One thing I have always wanted to try is feeding an axillary O2 source into the intake plenum of an exhaust O2 sensor equipped Fuel injected engine after the MAF.

[clean32]

OF course the missing part of that first sentance should be

Browns gas is the result of electrolyzing water into its component parts in one compartment..

If you seperate it off its just plain old hydrogen and oxygen..

bang on



One thing I have always wanted to try is feeding an axillary O2 source into the intake plenum of an exhaust O2 sensor equipped Fuel injected engine after the MAF.

ahh depends on how much O2, o2 sensor/ Lombard are quite limited in there range

Second problem may be the mapping fuel pressure etc or the lack of.

third problem would be that you sort of need all the other junk ( gases) to push the piston down, it may be a case of more heat less power ( after a given point)

but then i don’t really know just guessing

[bee utey]

One thing I have always wanted to try is feeding an axillary O2 source into the intake plenum of an exhaust O2 sensor equipped Fuel injected engine after the MAF.
Interesting. Where would you source the oxygen? There aren't all that many cubic metres of gas in a traditional oxy bottle.
Under stoichometric conditions your ECU would add extra fuel so that you would back off to maintain speed, full throttle open loop operation would not adapt, so run leaner.
Turbo charging adds extra oxygen too.

[Blknight.aus]

Actually the want to do the O2 thing to an electronic managed engine comes from a hypothetical situation test question that was setup to prove that you understood the feedbacks of the various components of electronic engine management.

Its one of those, theres no right or wrong as long as you supporting statements proove you have the basic understanding of EFI management.

it was over beers and after a discussion about that and NOX that it was decided to try what we could with what we had....

heres a stunner, steam fumigation provided a surprising increase in power out put.

HHO in the quantities we could generate did squidly

Acetone fumigation caused backfiring and set fire to the air cleaner

unregulated NOX blew the leftbank head.


as for where I was going to get the O2 from... well I work on an Airbase, theres a surprising number of LOX carts kicking around............

[clean32]

[QUOTE=Blknight.aus;1222011]
Acetone fumigation caused backfiring and set fire to the air cleaner

[QUOTE]

mate the orginal ripoff, Mr old Henry Ford got done for a Quillion with that one

[bee utey]

heres a stunner, steam fumigation provided a surprising increase in power out put.


Similar results to water injection? What temperature steam? Increased advance would happen with knock sensors.

Had a guy who tried something similar, he encased the exhaust manifold on a Sigma and ran the carby very lean, pumped water on to the manifold and fed the steam into the intake. Claimed very good economy figures and I would believe him as he was quite methodical. Sadly being a Sigma the head cracked. He gave up as he was in his late 70's.

[Blknight.aus]

whatever temp steam we could get out of the steam cleaner. (we werent going to move the traction engine to the testbed or vice versa)

we werent being very scientific about it at the time it was more or less a case of.


"hey lets see whats kicking around here that we can feed down the air intake."


we got lucky in that the old bloke who owned the place was a believer crack pot. (bloody good mechanic when you could get him off of crackpot theories or the booze) so pretty much anything we'd heard rumours of making engines run better was there for us to have a crack with.


My personal favorite was the fuel aerator.

[51jay]

good read this thread. Very entertaining Thanks guys :)

[JohnF]

Obviously well thought of.

The quote that P38arover gave called Yul Brown a "fraudster." I met him in the 1980's and saw his welder in his factory near Liverpool forget the name of that Sydney suburb. I had a friend who worked for him, which is how I found out about this.

But many have used his welders. I do wish I had one, but they were, and are very expensive and appear to have used a lot of electricity.

A TAFE welding teacher I spoke to back then, was not very impressed with this welding technology.