Disco 4 - 2.7l Caravan stability

[freopete]

Recently purchased new Disco with new 21foot caravan.
Never had this problem before and have done considerable towing of boats & caravans in the past.
Have had excessive fishtailing and would like to know how others are overcoming this problem.

[brad72]

I was under the impression that our D4's had trailer stability assist to stop this sort of thing. Will have to remember your experience when I next tow

[BigJon]

What is your towball weight?

[freopete]

D4 has stability control but this did not work.
Ball weight approx 200Kg. Van fully loaded approx 3t.
I believe I may be able to use a Reese Hitch with anti sway but not use weight distribution bars.

[mowog]

I just towed my 21' van on the weekend. It is super stable.

Is your Disco & van coming back to level when hitched? I found the LR tongue sits my van to low. I used another hitch to bring the rig level.

[Disco4SE]

Hi freopete, I have a 20 foot cuddy cab boat and I have noticed that there is a fair bit of difference to the vehicle if I pack most of my gear towards the front of the boat or the rear. The less weight at the front, the better the vehicle drives

[bobk]

Hi freopete,

Maybe your ball weight might be a bit light on. I believe general rule of thumb is ball weight should be around 10% of van weight to ensure stability.

I regularly tow our 2.4t (loaded) van with a D3 all over this country without any drama and my ball weight is 220kg to 240kg depending on how much water we are carrying at the time.

I did spend considerable time at the beginning to ensure my hitch height matched the van hitch height with the van loaded and level. I also always ensure I leave the engine running when hitching the van.

Cheers,
bobk

[freopete]

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I get the feeling that I might need a little more weight on the towball from what I have read. Has anyone used a Reese Hitch with anti sway bars (not load distribution)?
If not using the standard towball/tongue what type were you using?
What is the warranty situation & the insurance perspectives if not using LR parts?

[ADMIRAL]

Hi freopete,

Maybe your ball weight might be a bit light on. I believe general rule of thumb is ball weight should be around 10% of van weight to ensure stability.

I regularly tow our 2.4t (loaded) van with a D3 all over this country without any drama and my ball weight is 220kg to 240kg depending on how much water we are carrying at the time.

I did spend considerable time at the beginning to ensure my hitch height matched the van hitch height with the van loaded and level. I also always ensure I leave the engine running when hitching the van.

Cheers,
bobk

I have to agree. The ball weight seems very light on if your overall weight is 3T. I would get the bias towards the front, and if you cannot get all the weight you need to the front, at least get it over the axle(s) I the rule of thumb is 10 - 15%. If not sure I would err towards the 15%.

The point made by bobk on getting the tow vehicle and the caravan level is also spot on. There are numerous reese hitch lugs available to allow height adjustment of the ball.

The use of anti sway without the weight distribution hitch being employed, limits you to the friction control type. It uses a mini towball welded to the side of the WD head. One end sits on this 'towball, the other is attached to your caravan A frame. There is friction material in a sliding mechanism to act as a damper to sudden shifts in the angle of the A frame to the tow vehicle. The best type of anti sway uses the weight distribution bars and a cam set up. Very effective, but inappropriate for the D3/D4 air suspended Disco's.

Seriously, I would get the basics above correct first, before even contemplating going down the anti sway path.

[Tombie]

We towed 2.3t of sharkcat behind the D3 at 120km/h on what can only be described as poor highway with no issues or concerns in decent winds.

I think your vans not balanced right as others have said.

[mowog]

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I get the feeling that I might need a little more weight on the towball from what I have read. Has anyone used a Reese Hitch with anti sway bars (not load distribution)?
If not using the standard towball/tongue what type were you using?
What is the warranty situation & the insurance perspectives if not using LR parts?

The provided LR tongue looks way to light for loads up to 3500kg. It looks very similar to my Ford one that is only rated to 1600kg. On the LR tongue the square section tube is actually thinner than the 1600kg Ford tongue. The section where the tow ball mounts is a little thicker on the LR tongue.

I am using my Ford WDH tongue (not using the spring bars) in the LR receiver. This tongue is rated at 3500kg.

My next move is to buy an adjustable heavy duty tongue so that I can sell the Ford kit.

I don't think using different tongues will affect warranty. But you should ask LR Australia that question.

[bobk]

freopete,

In reply to your questions re types of hitch used.

I originally used a HR WDH head which I had from my old Patrol but without the bars. This gave me the ability to adjust height easily. The only problem with this hitch is that it weighs a ton but it was very effective in providing height adjustment.

I have sinced purchased a D4 tow adaptor and a "Rapid Hitch" which all works very successfully. As you have a D4 you would only require a "Rapid Hitch" for the same setup. The adavntages of the "Rapid Hitch" is that it is light and provides ample height adjustment very easily. I purchased mine from a caravan accessory shop in Toowoomba Qld and I am sure you would be able to do the same in WA. A "Google search" would provide you with the relevant information.

Hope this helps,
Cheers.
bobk

[mowog]

That Rapid Hitch looks like it will solve my hight issues very well. Thanks for the tip.

Here is a link...

Titan Trailer Brakes - Rapid Hitch (http://www.titanbrakes.com.au/rapid_hitch.php)

[rmp]

Trailer Stability Control should never kick in if the trailer is correctly set up and driven. It should only be felt when the trailer is beginning to get out of control. Think of it as a safety net.

The D3/D4 is a superb towcar and if it doesn't tow well I'd look at your setup:

- tyre pressures all round (trailer is NOT necessarily the same as towcar)
- towball mass
- weight distribution even if towball mass is in limits eg heavy weight on far rear and on drawbar is a bad idea as this has considerable interia
- binding brakes on trailer, other differential drag effects
- wheel alignment trailer and towcar
- make sure it's all level, especially if it's a tandem
- set up the brake controller properly, few people do so and you should definitely have one rather than overrides with a 21

Basically the problem is with the trailer setup not the car, and anti-sway devices will mask not fix the problem. For that reason I don't like them because there are too many inherently dynamically unstable trailers out there towable only due to this fix. It is also important to note that some trailer manufacturers concentrate more on cost, fit and other features with towability a long way down the list. I'll stop here before this turns into a rant.

[Disco4SE]

Hi Mowog, after having Landcruisers, I found the Disco's slightly more sensitive to tow ball weight. Having said that, once the weight is right, they tow better than the Cruiser. I ended up putting a Mitchell Bros tow hitch on my D3, but found the D4 hitch height perfect with my boat, tool trailer & rubbish trailer.

[mowog]

I have the hitch height pretty close with my old Ford hitch. Its just an ugly and heavy unit. I found my van tows very well even over some very average roads.

I am going to give the Rapid Hitch a try.

[CaverD3]

Depending on what and where you are towing a Mitchell Bros Hitch may be a better solution.
D4 hitch is an improvement on the D3 one but still too low for off road use.

[davman]

I concur. Sway occurs when you have too much weight a the back of the van, and not enough on the ball. You should have at least about 240KG in my experience for a van your size. Typically I have found the more you remove weight from the rear of the van, the better. Try removing all spare tyres, bike racks, boxes etc from the rear bar of your van, and then taking the van for test drive. Based on your "feel" of the setup, you can then add/subtract weight from the draw bar/bumper bar to suit.

[ozscott]

I wonder if the Toyota's were less 'sensitive' cause they were live axle at the rear....

As for problems with sway it is almost certainly lack of ball weight. If it were me with an IRS I would consider WDH and anti sway together.

Cheers

[Disco4SE]

Hi ozscott, You are probably right about the Toyota. All of my trailers are fine with the Disco, its only if I load too much gear at the rear of my boat.

[ozscott]

Yeah mate probably. The large body Discoveries are great towers in their own right but loading a already heavy unit being towed is always important/critical. I tow a 2 tonn Seafarer Vagabond with my 02 D2 and it has never swayed, but then again it is a well balanced front biased dual axle. I blew a tyre on the trailer at 90kph once and it didnt sway, so the loading must be sweet. I still think WDH might be a good idea on any heavy load - I dont have them - but they take a while to put on and are expensive, and most people these days on boats at least dont use them (and most boat trailers are not a-framed up to the ball either which adds another dimension).

Cheers

[ADMIRAL]

I wonder if the Toyota's were less 'sensitive' cause they were live axle at the rear....

As for problems with sway it is almost certainly lack of ball weight. If it were me with an IRS I would consider WDH and anti sway together.

Cheers
WDH is not recommended for the air suspension D3/D4. However you can use it on most boat trailers with the addition of a crossbar on the trailer drawbar.

[davman]

This is a question for Disco owners towing a heavy van. I have spoken to a few people regarding the air suspension in the D3. Given that the self levelling suspension manages the ride height, there has apparently been a few problems in the past over rougher terrain/road bumps etc, where the suspension gets a little confused as to what it's height should be, and hence the whole setup gets a little unstable with not enough of the front of the car on the road. Apparently some D3 drivers with air suspension experienced this and some not. Has anyone had any problems towing with the D4 like this.
Thanks

[mowog]

If you can wait until July I will have some more answers in regard to how well the D4 copes with a van over long distance and average roads.

I will be doing.

Sunshine Coast to Canarvan Gorge

Canarvan Gorge to Longreach

Longreach to Undara

Undara to Sunshine Coast

So there will be a fair mix of good and bad roads in there.

When I can get connectivity I will blog my adventures here...

Ramblings by Ian (http://mowogman.wordpress.com/)

Ignore my current political ramblings on the blog.

[gghaggis]

This is a question for Disco owners towing a heavy van. I have spoken to a few people regarding the air suspension in the D3. Given that the self levelling suspension manages the ride height, there has apparently been a few problems in the past over rougher terrain/road bumps etc, where the suspension gets a little confused as to what it's height should be, and hence the whole setup gets a little unstable with not enough of the front of the car on the road. Apparently some D3 drivers with air suspension experienced this and some not. Has anyone had any problems towing with the D4 like this.
Thanks

I've towed a 1.4 tonne pop-top from Perth to the Kimberley's (via Mt Augustus) and back. Mostly dirt roads. A 1.2 tonne off-road trailer from Perth to Alice via the Gunbarrel (and back), and an off-road 2.7 tonne (nearly 3 T loaded) caravan Perth - Melbourne - Perth, via mostly bitumen and some dirt travel. This was all in a 2.7 ltr D3 with air, and I've never experienced specifically what you describe. Stability was impeccable. But you need to have the tow-ball at the correct height for the towed vehicle. Too low and you will probably get the symptoms you're referring to.

What did occur on 2 occasions during the first two excursions was the car lowering to access height when braking to under 40kph. Switch off and restart cured the problem. Problem was never resolved, and never happened again.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Dorko]

Good old 'restart' like a computer!

Dorko

[davman]

Thanks guys for your overall help. So I am reading on a lot of forums about the whole NO WDH WITH SELF LEVELLING SUSPENSION debate. What are all of your real life experiences towing a heavy van. Is not having a WDH a problem?

[gghaggis]

There's not really any debate. LR advise against fitting them to a D3/D4/RRS with EAS. They may reject any warranty claim on affected components if you do.

If the vehicles and tow hitch are set up right, there have been/are no issues.

Cheers,

Gordon

[adonuff]

Hi I recently purchased a caravan magazine as it had a comparison between a D4, Prado and I think a Pajero all towing the same size van.

They raved about the Disco and basically canned the others. I could proberly fax or email a copy if you want.

If its all towing streight and level and the Disco suspension has compensated for the weight of the van Some form of anti sway might be needed, not sure if you can attatch them to a Land Rover bar though?

I had a simular prob with an 18ft van and cured it by fitting better tyres, good light truck tyres with the right tyre pressure fixed it. The origional tyres had too much flex in the side walls. Find a good tyre place and see what the max safe pressure for the tyres you have is and try that. Or talk too them and see if they can reccomend something better?

Check the pressure in the Disco's tyres too

You can also have a play around with your loading, less weight at the rear might help. I know of cases were by filling the water tank up also helps. adds weight but sometimes puts it where its needed. If you have two spares hanging on the rear of the van take them off and try that.

Have a look at the upper storage areas and keep as much of the heavy stuff down as low as you can.


Good luck I know how horrible it feels when the van starts swaying and have had to use the trailer brakes a few times to get me out of trouble

Andrew

[Pat]

Good day all.
I have a 3.2 ton Blueheeler Van on the D3. Never had to use WDH in 2.5 years & approx 30K, on all types of roads. Half the travel would be dirt.
I sit about 95km/h on tar & way down on dirt. Only had to use the brake controller lever once, on tar just after passing a road train (mainly due to sudden deteriation in road surface) got a sway up, no problem recovering control. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/138.jpg

[Bushwanderer]

Hi freopete,
As others have mentioned running a WDH on an air suspended D3 or D4 is a No No! What tends to happen if you do is that you end up with the levelling suspension and the WDH fighting each other for the "correct" height. This will damage the air suspension - not a good idea. :eek:

Again, as others have mentioned, check your nose weight, the caravan tyre pressures, the D4's tyre pressures and make sure that the towball is set to a height to make sure that the caravan is level.

To put you in the picture, I run an 18' caravan behind my coil-sprung D3. I took care of the items above and have dream runs.

I know that this isn't relevant to you, due to your experience, but I had a friend driving my D3 with the caravan on back out near Kings Canyon. It was a relatively narrow road, but I was confident that we could overtake a slower vehicle in front.

As we came alongside the slower vehicle, the D3/caravan assembly started to fishtail. I thought that she would correct it, but couldn't and started to become distressed, asking me what to do. I just reached across and held the steering wheel steady and we carried on through. (She'd been overcompensating for the movement.)

HTH someone,
Peter

[Brian Alcoe]

This is a question for Disco owners towing a heavy van. I have spoken to a few people regarding the air suspension in the D3. Given that the self levelling suspension manages the ride height, there has apparently been a few problems in the past over rougher terrain/road bumps etc, where the suspension gets a little confused as to what it's height should be, and hence the whole setup gets a little unstable with not enough of the front of the car on the road. Apparently some D3 drivers with air suspension experienced this and some not. Has anyone had any problems towing with the D4 like this.
Thanks
I have a new 3.5t van, with 260kg ball weight and a D4 3litre and exactly the same problem as listed. My D4 pulls the van with ease but is difficult to steer around corners and if the road is undulated the ride is similar to a small boat in rough seas.
Brian