Cars that changed the rules

[DiscoSaffa]

An interesting read.......

Classic cars | Influential cars (http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/cars-that-changed-the-rules-20100422-tdph.html)

Some interesting inclusions..... AND exclusions, I may be biased, but I would have thought that Land Rover, or at least the RRC would have qualified for a spot.

[JDNSW]

Of course, the list only started from 1955 - after Landrover had changed the the world. But I'd have thought the Rangerover would make his list.

For similar reasons obvious candidates such as the VW, 2CV, (both successful mass market small cars with very long production histories) Traction Avant (first successful front wheel drive), Gregoire Tracta (first CV joints in front wheel drive), Ford T (First mass produced detachable head monobloc engine, first widespread use of alloy steels), and other earlier pioneers miss out. But I find the inclusion of the Porsche 911 and not the XK120 a bit puzzling - it was the first mass produced car with discs if I remember rightly (Citroen was the first non-sporting car with them) and that was certainly influential.

John

[VladTepes]

Speaking of Land Rover. how's this for pro-Jap spin !


Toyota LandCruiser HJ60
This was the first big 4WD that family motorists embraced. As an off-roader, it was good enough to consign Jeep, Land Rover et al to the shrubbery. For long distances it appeared indestructible, with some owners claiming 1 million kilometres - and more - on the clock. The diesel version was particularly popular and boosted sales so much that many dealerships displayed blackboards full of back orders. The huge interior, high driver-seat position and bullet-proof look made many buyers think they were doing their family a favour. The HJ60 helped turn Australia, and later the US, into SUV-driving nations.




Yea there area as you say some big omissions from that list.

The question fo course is "influential in what way"?

Obvioulsy it's just a list of the ones that influenced Pedr Davis (the writer).

Great Wall.. what a load of codswallop. Apparently it "changed the rules" but he opens by saying
Having been here only a matter of months, this Chinese-made four-wheel-drive has yet to earn its stripes or indeed, make a difference to the automotive industry

Really....


JD you also failed to mention the Cord - but then you'd habve to choose. The L-29 (first Front Wheel Drive sold in USA), the 810 (first American front wheel drive with independent front suspension) and with styling to die for !

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/04/488.jpg

A Cord 812 (succesor to the 810). Thi is a naturally aspirated version but a supercharged model was also available.

[JDNSW]

deleted

[JDNSW]

In my view the Cord is overrated. While it is an interesting design, it did not have any lasting influence on the US or international motor industry, nor was it the first Front wheel drive car sold in the US, despite what Wikepedia says. This honor seems to go to the obscure Homer Laughlin in 1916, mentioned in Automobile Engineering Vol 2, Chicago, 1926.

John

[clean32]

Great Wall.. what a load of codswallop. Apparently it "changed the rules" but he opens by saying

Really....


.

well maybe not in aussie but defanatly in large hunks of the rest of the would, thay spit out more of these SUVs a month than holden make in a year, the italians love them.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

In my view the Cord is overrated. While it is an interesting design, it did not have any lasting influence on the US or international motor industry, nor was it the first Front wheel drive car sold in the US, despite what Wikepedia says. This honor seems to go to the obscure Homer Laughlin in 1916, mentioned in Automobile Engineering Vol 2, Chicago, 1926.

JohnJohn I don't know the truth or not of your assumption, but if you feel that Wikipedia is in error - then you have a moral obligation to amend it so the truth will out.

This is what Wiki is all about, information provided for humanity, by humanity and edited by humanity.

Diana

[VladTepes]

:Dclean just because they are popular (high volume) doesn't mean they are any good or rule changers.


In my view the Cord is overrated. While it is an interesting design, it did not have any lasting influence on the US or international motor industry, nor was it the first Front wheel drive car sold in the US, despite what Wikepedia says. This honor seems to go to the obscure Homer Laughlin in 1916, mentioned in Automobile Engineering Vol 2, Chicago, 1926.

John

You probably bought that book new, didn;t ja JD ! :p :wasntme:

learn something every day. Still to be truthful the Cord appeals to me because I LOVE that art deco styling. When I'm mega rich I'll get one to go with the Duesenberg SJ I'd also buy.

(assuming of course I have any money left after buying the Astons!) :D

[clean32]

:Dclean just because they are popular (high volume) doesn't mean they are any good or rule changers.



AH so true, i think the point the auther was trying to make was there value for money. or that thay have reset the bench mark for the midle weight SUV market. simlur to what he wrote about the EH holden

[Bigbjorn]

Cord Front wheel drive was produced from late 1928. It used a de Dion front suspension. I have no idea of production numbers but the demise was more likely caused by the great depression and the financial problems of Cord-Auburn-Deusenberg than by any mechanical shortcomings.

As to the first mass produced vehicle with disc brakes, this depends on how you define mass production. Most European makes were almost cottage industries by U.S. standards. Cadillac for many years called themselves the only mass producer of luxury cars. The entire production of Jaguar XK120-140-150 was likely less than a weeks work at Chevrolet, 10,000 small block engines per day at one stage. JD, I can't recall XK120's with disc brakes, XK140's yes. 120's were notorious for their poor brakes and many and wonderful were the modifications made to race prepared 120's. One of the big Jaguar sedans had four wheel discs, can't remember which, Mark 8 or 9.

There has been virtually nothing new since 1955, just improvements. All the major work was done long before. The starter motor, high tension ignition, syncromesh, automatic transmissions, power steering, air conditioning, independent suspensions, unit construction, all predate WW2. Disc brakes came from WW2 aircraft. Michelin produced radial tyres in 1949.

The only car on that list that did anything differently and was a step forward is the Citroen.

Range Rover's permanent four wheel drive system was hardly revolutionary. All someone did was to take a normal truck tandem drive and space it out to the corners of a medium size station wagon.

Stuart Hilborn's constant flow fuel injection system replaced carburettors on virtually every race car made in the USA from 1948-49 and Rochester produced their mechanical fuel injection system in the early 1960's Corvette but Mercedes -Benz had a petrol injection system in production in the late 1950's.

[JDNSW]

Cord Front wheel drive was produced from late 1928. It used a de Dion front suspension. I have no idea of production numbers but the demise was more likely caused by the great depression and the financial problems of Cord-Auburn-Deusenberg than by any mechanical shortcomings.

Most business failures are not caused by any problems with the product - certainly the depression would have been a major factor, but if you look at the US market, very few really different cars have had long term success. A major problem with Cord was that it was very expensive, and again, can you think of any US car that has managed to survive on only a single upmarket model since the depression? And very few before then!

As to the first mass produced vehicle with disc brakes, this depends on how you define mass production. Most European makes were almost cottage industries by U.S. standards. Cadillac for many years called themselves the only mass producer of luxury cars. The entire production of Jaguar XK120-140-150 was likely less than a weeks work at Chevrolet, 10,000 small block engines per day at one stage.

The US market has always been much larger than Europe, and the term "mass production" has no precise meaning, but generally means production of substantial numbers of a product to the same design, which just changes the question to what is meant by "substantial". But, for example, in the fifties the overall production methods used by, for example, Citroen with the DS, would have been virtually identical to those used by Cadillac, probably with comparable numbers. And something worth noting is that about 1960 Citroen claimed their production of the levelling valves were the most precise manufacture of any device anywhere that did not use selective fit (If you are not familiar, these are a simple spool valve - with no seals, operating at a nominal 10,000psi, and they do not normally leak)

JD, I can't recall XK120's with disc brakes, XK140's yes. 120's were notorious for their poor brakes and many and wonderful were the modifications made to race prepared 120's. One of the big Jaguar sedans had four wheel discs, can't remember which, Mark 8 or 9.

I was probably thinking of the XK140.

There has been virtually nothing new since 1955, just improvements. All the major work was done long before. The starter motor, high tension ignition, syncromesh, automatic transmissions, power steering, air conditioning, independent suspensions, unit construction, all predate WW2. Disc brakes came from WW2 aircraft.

Disc brakes were first fitted to Darraq in 1906 and to AC cars in 1913 when few if any aircraft had brakes of any kind (aircraft brakes were not needed until sealed runways started to be used, a tail skid being used instead), so are hardly a WW2 aircraft design.

Michelin produced radial tyres in 1949

The major innovations since the fifties have been in engine design, and then mainly in computer control. The really major and generally invisible advance has been in design and manufacturing methods, producing vehicles that are stronger, lighter and longer lasting, and engines that are lighter, more powerful, and longer lasting - but generally with far less redundant strength, and also much more difficult to repair or modify. Apart from this there have been a continual parade of old developments resurrected and usually presented as a bold new innovation.

John

[DiscoSaffa]

Range Rover's permanent four wheel drive system was hardly revolutionary. All someone did was to take a normal truck tandem drive and space it out to the corners of a medium size station wagon.

I beg to differ...... it was an innovative solution to deal with what was, at the time, the excessive power generated by the V8, and formed the basis of the full time 4x4 system, mechanically unchanged for decades in Land Rovers....... still being used in defenders.

They were the first to mass produce it, and have quietly improved it over the years all the while leaving it fundamentally unchanged....... at the time, full time 4x2, with part time 4x4 was the rule….. nowadays we expect full time 4x4…. changed the rules in my book…….

[JDNSW]

I beg to differ...... it was an innovative solution to deal with what was, at the time, the excessive power generated by the V8, and formed the basis of the full time 4x4 system, mechanically unchanged for decades in Land Rovers....... still being used in defenders.

They were the first to mass produce it, and have quietly improved it over the years all the while leaving it fundamentally unchanged....... at the time, full time 4x2, with part time 4x4 was the rule….. nowadays we expect full time 4x4…. changed the rules in my book…….


Hardly the first though - Rover was the first (post war) with the full time four wheel drive concept in 1948 with the Landrover, which only went to part time four wheel drive in 1952, but even there, they were not the first (Spyker, 1910), just the first really successful. But there were other reasons why the Rangerover should have been included - it was the car that introduced the concept of the modern "SUV". He included the HJ60, which took over much of Rover's market albeit mainly in Australia, mainly by having four doors, being bigger, and having a diesel engine, plus, by that time Toyota had a better dealer network in Australia than did Rover. But the Rangerover started it. (Arguably the first modern SUV was the Tickford Landrover, beating the Jeep station wagon four wheel drive by about six months, but neither had any influence on cars in Australia, although the Jeep probably did in the USA.)

John

[isuzurover]

XK120 a bit puzzling - it was the first mass produced car with discs if I remember rightly (Citroen was the first non-sporting car with them) and that was certainly influential.


XK120 had drums AFAIK???

Wikipedia says this:

Modern-style disc brakes first appeared on the low-volume Crosley Hotshot in 1949, although they had to be discontinued in 1950 due to design problems.[1] Chrysler's Imperial also offered a type of disc brake from 1949 through 1953, though in this instance they were enclosed with dual internal-expanding, full-circle pressure plates. Reliable modern disc brakes were developed in the UK by Dunlop and first appeared in 1953 on the Jaguar C-Type racing car. The Citroën DS of 1955, with powered inboard front disc brakes, and the 1956 Triumph TR3 were the first European production cars to feature modern disc brakes.[2] The first production car to feature disc brakes at all 4 corners was the Austin-Healey 100S in 1954.[3] The first British company to market a production saloon fitted with disc brakes to all four wheels was Jensen Motors Ltd with the introduction of a Deluxe version of the Jensen 541 with Dunlop disc brakes.[4] The next American production cars to be fitted with disc brakes were the 1963 Studebaker Avanti[5] (optional on other Studebaker models), standard equipment on the 1965 Rambler Marlin (optional on other AMC models), and the 1965 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray (C2). The 1965 Ford Thunderbird came with front disc brakes as standard equipment.

[Sleepy]

They forgot the Sandman Panelvan:mad:

It certainly changed my rules:p

[Bigbjorn]

XK120 had drums AFAIK???

Wikipedia says this:

The 100S was hardly a production car as only about 25 were made. Built for the factory team to run at Le Mans and a few more to sell. The Jaguar C type was a purpose built race car for Le Mans and used a hydraulic pump and spool valve to overcome the very high pedal pressures required with a normal master cylinder system. Driver fatigue over the 24 hour race forced this.

Chrysler in the U.S. offered Airheart disc brakes as an option on the 1963 Plymouth Valiant, the body style known here as the AP5 and AP6. The Corvette (C2) also known as the Stingray first had four wheel drums and options of heavy duty drum brakes, and ceremetallic lined drum brakes which were part of a "Competition Package " option. The cermetallic brakes were not really suitable for street use as they had to be hot to work properly. I owned a much modified '59 Corvette with these and one drove the first couple of hundred yards each day with a foot on the brake pedal to warm up the linings.

The C2 Corvette also had four wheel independent suspension, the rear by a transverse fibreglass leaf spring, and was the first automotive use of fibre optic cable, in the instrument lighting.

[Bigbjorn]

I beg to differ...... it was an innovative solution to deal with what was, at the time, the excessive power generated by the V8, and formed the basis of the full time 4x4 system, mechanically unchanged for decades in Land Rovers....... still being used in defenders.

They were the first to mass produce it, and have quietly improved it over the years all the while leaving it fundamentally unchanged....... at the time, full time 4x2, with part time 4x4 was the rule….. nowadays we expect full time 4x4…. changed the rules in my book…….


I challenge you to tell us how the first Range rover constant 4WD system was any different to a normal truck tandem drive axle system. Quite simply, it is not.

And as to "excessive power" of a small 3.5 litre V8 in a two ton car, can I start laughing now. Could it spin all four on command on dry bitumen? I think not.

[lokka]

I once seen an write up in a wheels mag it was i think back in 05 maby earlyer and they did a list of the most influential cars of the century i think it was well the list was of 100 cars and the range rover was the winner and i think its preaty spot on too for a 4x4 to have what it had in the 70's it was a car aehad of anything else on the road at the time .

[lokka]

I challenge you to tell us how the first Range rover constant 4WD system was any different to a normal truck tandem drive axle system. Quite simply, it is not.

And as to "excessive power" of a small 3.5 litre V8 in a two ton car, can I start laughing now. Could it spin all four on command on dry bitumen? I think not.


HAHAHAHAHAH good point brian :D:D

Even with nearly an extra liter of CC running the 4.4 in my rangie it still was in need of more right foot action :cool:

[flagg]

http://www.wallcoo.net/car/crwpitman_craig_pitman/images/1974_Lancia_Stratos.jpg

in my small and insignificant knowledge of the world, this was the car that changed motorsport forever.

[Hardchina]

pfffft, no mention of the greatest, the biggest milestone in motoring history

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[VladTepes]

flagg see my thread the Lancia Delta Integrale

[Psimpson7]

Lancia have made some of the best, and most interesting cars ever in my mind. There are so many I love. HF Integrale, 037, stratos, Fulvia, thema 8.32, Aurelia and so many more.

[flagg]

The 037 is my fav car of all time :)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

pfffft, no mention of the greatest, the biggest milestone in motoring history

http://images.loqu.com/contents/821/153/image/C/U2148P2DT20080626081320(1).jpgAre you sure?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/04/453.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/04/454.jpg

[Hardchina]

:D that was the funniest episode ever - funny because it was so true.

Thanks

i've now got an avatar pic! :)

[Bigbjorn]

HAHAHAHAHAH good point brian :D:D

Even with nearly an extra liter of CC running the 4.4 in my rangie it still was in need of more right foot action :cool:

The Jeep CJ with the 360 V8 and Quadratrac, and the Dodge Power Wagon with Chrysler's constant 4WD and 440 V8, both of the early 70's, had enough grunt. The CJ could out-accelerate the then current model Porsche 911 and light up all four on bitumen. Chev. Blazers could be optioned up with constant 4WD and a variety of engines into a very formidable 4WD indeed.

[JDNSW]

Lancia have made some of the best, and most interesting cars ever in my mind. There are so many I love. HF Integrale, 037, stratos, Fulvia, thema 8.32, Aurelia and so many more.

Correct about Lancia. The Lancia Lambda was one of the most significant developments in car design, not only because it was one of the first to adopt independent front suspension, but because to handle the stresses this put on the chassis they were the very first to use monocoque construction in 1922. The engine was interesting, being a narrow angle V4 with a single overhead camshaft for both banks. They were widely used in motor sport in Australia into the 1950s.

But you can argue that they did little to "change the rules", because their innovations were not copied by any other manufacturer. For example, nobody, but nobody has ever used their sliding pillar front suspension, and the next significant user of monocoque construction (Ciroen Traction Avant) used different methods. Similar arguments can be used for many of the cars mentioned in this thread - interesting and innovative cars, but no other models copied them.

John

[Bigbjorn]

Morgan use a similar sliding pillar front suspension. The design produces significant bump steer. Lambdas were a very interesting little jigger. A much sought after vintage sports car in the 50's-60's. I have not seen or heard of one for years. They are probably tightly held by a circle of (aging) Lambda enthusiasts and rarely traded outside the group. Amilcars are like this.

Citroen's unit construction design came from the Budd Company of the USA. Budd offered the idea around the US manufacturers without getting a taker. Budd were already making rail cars by unit construction and they virtually wrote the bible of sheet metal construction.

[slug_burner]

What about this one?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/04/434.jpg

They were always up there with the Lancias

[Psimpson7]

Quattro's are cool (is that a SWB one?) but the Grale' moved the game on tbh in the WRC.

I am the worlds biggest fan though :)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/09/443.jpg

[JDNSW]

Morgan use a similar sliding pillar front suspension. The design produces significant bump steer. Lambdas were a very interesting little jigger. A much sought after vintage sports car in the 50's-60's. I have not seen or heard of one for years. They are probably tightly held by a circle of (aging) Lambda enthusiasts and rarely traded outside the group. Amilcars are like this.

Citroen's unit construction design came from the Budd Company of the USA. Budd offered the idea around the US manufacturers without getting a taker. Budd were already making rail cars by unit construction and they virtually wrote the bible of sheet metal construction.

Morgan suspension I don't think was copied from Lancia, albeit similar (and there were other sliding pillar suspension cars going back to the late 1890s) - what Lancia produced was the first really successful IFS car.

And yes, I was aware of the Budd connection for Citroen. As with Lancia, they needed the monocoque construction to give adequate rigidity for good handling with IFS. Contemporary US manufacturers were only then considering IFS, were not too concerned about handling, and had no problems with adding weight to the chassis if necessary. In many respects mainstream US car design was behind Europe in the thirties (probably for adequate reasons) - for example, most US manufacturers stuck with side valve engines until the end of the forties, as did some British manufacturers.

And US manufacturers did not start to manufacture all steel bodies, let alone monocoque construction until the late thirties.

John

[Bigbjorn]

JD, the US magazine "Car Collector and Car Classics" had a feature article on the Budd Company early 1980's and included a photograph of the Budd unit construction prototype car which is ummistakably the Traction Avant. Lots of photos of the rail cars under construction and other large sheet metal objects. They must have been one of the technological leaders of the time. Their contribution to the WW2 aircraft industry wth design, methods, and plant got considerable mention.

[Milkman Dan]

http://www.chrysler-restorers-sa.org.au/crcmag139.pdf

Page 18 Cadwell's 4WD, Circ 1913.

May I add, not an easy thing to find.