101 Front diff

[PeterP]

Still chasing the noises in the drive train when I back off at any speed over 30 K's. I decided to pull the front drive shaft off and have a drive with the CD locked.
The noises decreased dramatically, while there is still some noise when backed off it does not sound like some part is being tortured and trying to escape as it did before.
I drove it about 7klm after a cold start, got home and parked, jumped underneath to see if I could feel any play in the front diff pinion flange and near burnt my fingers. After such a short drive, with no shaft fitted and flange was really very hot. The rest of the diff housing had virtually no heat in it but was considerably warmer around where the flange fits.
My theory is with the original front shaft totally stuffed and lots of play along with the normal 101 shaft angle issues that the pinion bearing on the diff have been damaged.
Just looking for anyones thoughts, agreement or disagreement before I start pulling it apart.
Anyone know where I can get a diff housing spreader?

Cheers,
Peter

[isuzurover]

Sals diffs generally run hot, but that sounds excessive.

I agree - it sounds like you might have a pinion bearing failing.

A spreader isn't needed. You can remove the centre with gentle pressure from a couple of tyre levers and refit with a soft hammer.

[101 Ron]

Garrrycol has my diff spreader.
A normal speader for a sals or dana 60 will most likely not fit on the front of a 101 due to the close location of the RHS front spring to the spreader lug hole on the housing.
The one that garry has will fit the front diff.
You will not need a spreader just to remove and refit the diff centre.
You can carefully lever it out and in.
The bearing preload for the pinion is easily checked by jacking up, the front wheels and use a spring guage or if experienced by feel on the drive flange.
You can inspect the outer pinion bearing by removing the pinion oil seal and looking inside.
You must be careful not to lose or up set any shims under the drive flange when it is removed.
The shims control the bearing preload.
The inner bearing must be inspected by removing the diff cover and looking carerfully ..........you may not need to remove the diff centre.
When refitting the drive flange on the splines on the pinion shaft , use loctite retaining compound or similar to take up any wear or to stop movement for the tailshaft buzz.
I recommend a new oil seal and a speedi seleeve fitted on the drive flange to help keeping things oil free.
With the front tailshaft out and centre diff locked I recommend playing with rear tailtshaft angles via the use of spring taper wedges between the spring and spring perch on the diff tube as rear tailshaft angles are important too.
If you are going to pull the front diff apart it would be a great time for a front locker...........but it is a lot of work as those front CV joints have to come apart to remove the axles to drop the centre and a spreader will be needed for the ARB locker setting up.

[101 Ron]

I think the pinion preload is controlled under the drive flange via shims and also a crush tube and these can be damage by over tighting the drive flange nut , or the flange nut comming loose and wearing away the shims with the small amount of movement...........and them some one finds the nut lose and retightens it and now the preload becomes too much for the bearings as the shims have previously worn away a little.
One other thing to note, a loose drive flange nut.....(not enough preload and bearing play) will cause a wine when the diff is driving the vehicle on the over run as the diff pinion is sucked into the crown wheel slightly causing the noise.
Ron

[101RRS]

Garrrycol has my diff spreader.


You will be getting it back soon :)

Garry

[PeterP]

Ya call that a diff spreader!!!

This is a diff spreader ----
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/05/1633.jpg

Got it out and apart. No sign of serious wear or heat on the bearing surfaces.


101Ron - >....and them some one finds the nut lose and retightens it and now the preload becomes too much for the bearings
I think you are right on the mark Ron. There were hammer marks on the flange nut trying to lock it so someone has probably had a little tighten up and stuffed the preload.

Air locker would be good but I don't think I would get one within a few weeks. Perhaps there is somebody out there with one they could not possibly fit in the coming southern winter, especially if they had a severely sloped driveway, they could send it to me and I could make sure it fits a 101.:)

Cheers,
Peter

[101RRS]

I am on to you - no:o.

Why did you pull the friggin lot out?:eek:

While it is out - take the tubes out of the diff centre housing and rotate the centre housing so that the front driveshaft angles will improve to get rid of the rumble - that way no cutting or welding is required.

Garry

[101 Ron]

You have the diff apart.
It is locker time as it too much hard work to fit it later.
If you really want to you could get the parts in a week.
ARB has series 3 salisbury lockers in stock.
Anthony in Melbourne should still have some conversion gears.
Fitting one gets the 101 into Pinzguaer and volvo C303 terriory.
After having the front locker for a while now I can say it is worth while and places where things were a bit slippery or tough before are so much easier with less speed and wear and tear.
That tail shaft you have on the front is that a double cardon joint both ends or at one end only ?

[PeterP]

I am on to you - no.Garry, I thought it was a fine idea.
With having to pull the diff apart and also fit the Haystee springs it was only another 30 minutes to get the diff in an easy place to work on. Also allows me to clean things up properly. Is it really possible to take the tubes out of the diff housing? Looks like a big ask to me.

Ron, I will investigate you thoughts on the locker and talk to Anthony (since Garry is being so selfish with his:no2:). The double cardon joint is only on one end of the shaft and this only fits on the transfer case end.

Cheers,
Peter

[101RRS]

Also allows me to clean things up properly.
Cheers,
Peter

Why bother - two trips offroad and it will be just as crappy as it was before and the dirt never comes off. I completely repainted the whole underside of my 101 just before I put it back on the road and now 8 months later it is just as crappy as it was and it gets an underbody wash after each trip offroad.

The front (and rear) axle housing is a three piece item so it was put together at some stage so logically could come apart - I am not sure whether the tubes screw in or were were pressed in.

Why don't you try to pull yours apart (heat and brute force comes to mind) and tell us how it is done. That way when I put my locker in the front I can also twist my diff.

Garry

[101 Ron]

Peter
a double cardon joint with a normal uni joint one end of the front tailshaft WILL NOT FIX the tailshaft rumble on a 101 and in fact could make it much worse.
The only situation where that type of tailshaft set up will work on a rolled front diff and the double cardon fitted to the transfer case side of things.
The way you are currently running the after market tailshaft is most likely producing more vibs than the standard 101 tailshaft with a normal uni joint each end
the standard design goes some where near to getting a constant velocity effect from one end of the tailshaft to the other by the speed variations cancelling themselves out by having the uni joints at opposite angles to each other.
The other solution is a after market tailshaft with a double cardon joint each end giving a constant velocity effect no matter what the angles are.
a front tailshaft with double cardon joints each end will have a even more steeper angle of operation due to the extra lenght of the joints and will be weaker and very unsteady when worn.
Two CV joints like used on a current JK jeep tail shaft may work , but will have a short operating life on a 101 again due to running at steeper angles than they where designed for.
Note when CV and and double cardon joints let go they tend to not give much warning in a situation like that of a 101.

[101 Ron]

One of the main reasons the standard tailshaft rumbles/buzz/rattles on the float going down a hillis the high speed the thing spins at due to low diff ratios and the middle of the tailshaft having to go though four speed variations per revolution with the tailshaft tube and splines having mass.
does this matter at the end of the day and the answer is no.
It doesnt cause any major problems other than needing to grease frequenty and keep tight various bolts etc of the front drive line.
high unijoint wear on the standard shaft is caused by high rotational shaft speeds and high operating angles.
standard 101 tail shafts are cheap and easy to replace uni joints on.
Series three and other model landrover shafts can easily be chopped and fitted as a replacement at low cost.

[101 Ron]

things which reduce the tail shaft buzz of a 101 is.
1/ fit a overdrive as you can power on for longer going down a hill for longer and not get into the over run tailshaft buzz situation.
2/ have a tailshaft in good nick.
3/ have a light weight tail shaft..ie not heavy duty as it will have less inertia and allow a higher speed before the tail shaft buzz comes in.
4/ when setting up the diff pinion go for the maximum crown wheel back lash of 12 thou as this gives the tailshaft room to move when it buzzes with out a load on it.
The pinion hitting the ring gear quickly front one side of the gear to the other is what really causes the noise due to the four speed differences per revolution partly caused by high speed inertia.
I tighten my pinion to crown wheel clearence to 4 thou thinking I was doing the right thing and made it slightly worse.
5/ grease the spline before a long trip as the grease acts as a shock asorber in the splines and lessons the noise.
On a standard tailshaft set up in good condition the noise doesnt matter a stuff to the vehicle and it is only the driver which has a problem with it and non 101 informed mechanics who think there is some wrong with the drive line.

[101 Ron]

If i was going to stop the 101 tailshaft buzz( I am not going to as it is not worth it)
I would try some sort of cush drive.( rubber donut on a standard shaft and uni ,s)
It wouldnt stop the buzz in the real world, but would reduce the noise as the pinion rattles against the ring gear.
higher diff ratios would very greatly help, but a 4.6 litre motor would be needed for that.
A two ended double cardon or CV tail shaft would work , but the short life and high costs for the 101 application rules it out for me.

[Sitec]

Hello! I owned a 101 for several years in the UK, and yup I had the same noise from the front prop. 1, Change the 5.9 to 1 crown and pinnion for 4.7 to 1 c&p found in Ser 3 rear axle (this rases the gearing and slows the props which helped mine and was needed for the impending diesel conversion). 2, Change the 4 sp box for a 5 sp Santana Box (early V8 110). This pushes the transfer box position back and eliminates the noise (or it did when I shoe horned a 6cyl 6ltr Nissan diesel into mine) and 3, make up a CV jointed front prop. (I did using early Rangie cv's which worked well untill the diesel tore them appart.. (very messy))! Do not cut the axle and tip the diff as Salisbury diffs do not like to run with a dry pinnion bearing! Simon!

[101RRS]

I agree with all Ron has said HOWEVER Landrover installed a double carden on the gearbox end of the front driveshaft on the Series 3 Stage 1 and much later in the Discovery 2 - obviously done for a reason - reduce vibration.

My driveshaft is rubber filled and takes a lot of the vibration out - can still feel it and now only rarely hear it over the 101 already loud noises.

I think the solution is DC, rubber filled shaft, lower drivers side engine gearbox mounts, rotate front diff housing (oil level needs adjustment to prevent dry pinion bearings) if you do not want to change diff ratios. I have calculated drive shaft RPMS at different speeds and it is only about 10% more in a 101 over other landies and about the same where other landies are at higher speeds (120-130kph).

Moving the gearbox back will cause issues with the rear drive shaft as it is already steeper and shorter than the front shaft (still not sure why the noise comes form the front and not the rear).

Garry

Garry

[PeterP]

Thanks for all the input, good point about running the pinion bearing dry with a changed angle on the diff Simon.
Guess I will get it back together and try a few things from there.
I will try both the DC and standard front shaft to see if there is any difference.
Dropping the RHS of the motor gearbox sound like a feasible option.

Why bother - two trips offroad and it will be just as crappy as it was before and the dirt never comes off. I completely repainted the whole underside of my 101 just before I put it back on the road and now 8 months later it is just as crappy as it was and it gets an underbody wash after each trip offroad.At least I will know what is under the crap I put on it, good chance to check everything out, already found a few issues. Also getting rid of the silver underbelly is a priority plus I have a bit of time on my hands,

Peter

[R12 Krad]

Hi all, I recently sold my 101 and supply trailer to a fellow here in Adelaide. I found that the propshaft vibration could be limited if the pinion nut was tightened a flat or two ( no more) I never worried too much about the racket it made though and I have driven the vehicle on many extended trips to the Flinders Ranges and interstate without it ever getting any worse. Most drivers just get very good at balancing the engine load on the drive line. NOW CHAPS.... DO ANY OF YOU KNOW WHERE I MIGHT FIND A SET OF 101 AXLE ASSYS COMPLETE OR IN OTHER WORDS A UNIT BEING WRECKED SOMEWHERE ? cheers Dave

[101RRS]

DO ANY OF YOU KNOW WHERE I MIGHT FIND A SET OF 101 AXLE ASSYS COMPLETE OR IN OTHER WORDS A UNIT BEING WRECKED SOMEWHERE ? cheers Dave

About the only place I can think of is Land Rover 101 - British 4wd Imports - Home Page (http://101spares.com/)

Garry

[PeterP]

Has anyone ever done the pinion bearings on these diffs?
I have the new ones in with all new bits including the collapsable bearing spacer. I have done the nut up just enough so there is no play in the bearings at this stage.
The book (P 51.15.07 para 86) states that I should keep doing it up until it has 30-40 ft/lb torque resistance to rotation. :confused: This seems very excessive to me, do they mean turning it with a torque wrench on the nut?
The book (P51.20.01 para 5) mentions a "Torquemaster" or a spring balance to measure torque to rotate.
Anyone got any clues please?

Peter

[101 Ron]

I have not done the pinion bearings in a sals.
30 to 40 ft lb when checking preload is done using a arm or lever bolted on to the drive flange which is 12 inches or one foot long.
Use a spring tension gauge to measure 30 to 40 pounds resistance to move the arm you have fitted to the drive flange.
Note the resistance to get the pinion moving is usually slightly more and the measurement is taken when the pinion is moving.

[101 Ron]

The other way to do it which is not as good , but will work with a experienced hand is with a old fashion type torque wrench.
Older torque wrenches use a steel bar which flexes with load and trips a indicator pin when the preset torque is reached.( some just read the flex directly on a scale )
Use the torque wrench to drive the pinion shaft around via the pimion nut.
(the pinion nut usually is done up much more than the bearing preload torque so it shouldnt move when checking the pinion bearing preload.)
When the pinion starts moving and it is reading say 35 ft lb when as you go round you would be close.
The preload on the bearings is high as the the loads are high trying to force the pinion and ring gear apart.
More than eight times engine torque runs though the pinion alone when operating in low range first gear.
The diff housing will move and flex under that sort of load and then there is heat build up which lessons preload at operating temps.

[101 Ron]

The crush tube is suppose to be a one use thing.
They can be reused if they have not previously not been given too harder a time and the preload is when set up is correct.
the other thing to do is run bearing blue on the pinion and ring gear when the diff is back together and check the gear mesh ( experienced eye helps alot.)
Back lash from memory is 5 to 12 thou.
Setting up a diff from scratch means you need to juggle the various shims and settings for changing one setting will effect another.
That's why some people in the auto trade specialise in this sort of work as it takes time and experience.
I usually like to blue a diff pinion and ring gear before disassembling a diff and aim to get the ring gear and pinion mesh the same after reassembling even though the it may not be been quiet right as found as whonce gears have worn a certain way they tend to become noisy if changed, even if the the new settings may be correct.

[PeterP]

40 ft/lb is fairly tight for a bolt let alone a taper bearing pre-load but I have found my error, the book states a confusing 30 to 40 lbf in. I missed the 'in'. It would obviously be 40 in/lb (3.33 ft/lb) which makes much more sense. Just goes to show, you can read something a hundred times but its not until the 101st time that it clicks. :censored:

My current torque wrench is not capable at that end of the scale so I will have to look for something more suitable.

Thanks,
Peter

[101RRS]

I took the 101 in yesterday to get a LPG and petrol tune as it is now a bastard to start but runs OK. Cannot tune it up as it seems that the inlet manifold is letting air in so today off comes the manifold an in with new gaskets and back to the tuneup man early next week.

As my front tyres are wearing a bit odd - I went in for a wheel alignment this morning at a specialist truck wheel alignment shop - again no can do the work as the swivel pins on the passenger side are really bad and the drivers are just bad. Both wheels wobble around a bit.

So is it just a matter of replacing the bottom swivel pin bearing and the raiko (s) bushes at the top or is there more too it. Suppliers in Aust? or do I need to get them in from the 101 club or other suppliers in the UK.

The guy also checked all my tie rods and all have too much vertical movement so need replacing - but still considered safe to drive so can do the Outback Heritage Drive over the next few weeks.

On return the front end will have to be rebuilt.

The odd tyre wear seemed to indicate bad shockies but the guy did a quick test and they seemed OK. He indicated he would be able to match the shockies from one of the jap light truck range I just need to give him the extended/compressed dimensions and mounting bracket shaft sizes. Same applies to the rears. I will follow this up when I do the front end work and see what comes up.

Garry

[101 Ron]

The top bearing is just a fibre type bush and the bottom is a taper roller type bearing.
If your top CV joint bush is any thing near good you should be able to sort things out with out pulling to much apart.
The caps which have the pin which goes though the bearings are held to the CV joint housing via 2 bolts and the brake line bracket needs to be removed top cap/ plate for the top one.
Adjustment is via shims under these caps.
What normally happens is the bottom taper roller bearing and cone will wearout as it carrys the weight and gets the rusty water from creek crossings which gets in the housing..
Jack the axle up and drop the bottom cap first which is a easy job which drops the oil too.
clean and check the bearing and cone.
if worn the a new bearing and cone will most likely remove the play without much further work.
It must be noted the CV joint housing when it is moved without the steering and CV seals fitted must have some preload, which is what the shims control.
CV joint seals are easy to replace too if required.
Without CV joint preload on the bearings bad wheel shimmy problems can occur after hitting a bump on the road.
Refer to my ARB locker thread pics.

[101 Ron]

The steering rod ends are bullet proof and shouldn't wear out as they are self adjusting.
The only failure which cause them to get sloppy is the internal compression spring inside the rod end breaking or rusting away.
It is possible to get up and down movement on these rod ends because of the self adjusting feature and is normal to have this play if looking for it using a big bar etc to find it.
Under normal steering loads the internal spring will stop any up and down movement of the rod end and also removes any play in the normal operating direction of loads.
The two rod ends that are on the CV.s....(I think the tie rod ) can be disassembled by removing the cir clip and end plate on the rod end..
Do this as you will understand how they work, grease them .
The other rod ends are the same , but are sealed.
They make the steering lighter and stop any possible rod end movement drill and tap the middle of the end plate of the rod ends for small grease nipples.
the nipple will sit in the middle of the internal compression spring and therefore will not interfere with it.
When greased the grease will pressurise the internal rod end cup helping the spring and tighten things up more.
The grease in time will work its way thought to the working faces too and made for lighter steering.
New rod end boots are cheap as chips from any auto store.

[101 Ron]

Tell the local automech the vertical play is normal and the rod ends are of a different design which he has not seen before.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/05/643.jpg
The above is one of the rod ends which can be disassembled and note the grease nipple which has been fitted.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/05/644.jpg
The above here is a sealed rod end to which I have fitted a grease nipple.
Filling the rod end with grease will stop any one with a pry bar thinking there is any thing wrong as the grease locks it tight.
I have done all of them this way and the steering is lighter.
The one on the steering box and top of relay arm was drilled on tapped in situ will a 90 degree air drill.

[101 Ron]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/05/638.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/05/639.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/05/640.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/05/641.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/05/642.jpg

[101 Ron]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/05/636.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/05/637.jpg

[101 Ron]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/05/634.jpg
Note the plain bush set up for the top CV swivel bearing.....mine had no wear and I suspect they are tuff and will rarely need replacing.....a good reason to run oil instead of grease in the CV joint housing.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/05/635.jpg
On the above you can see the top plate has just been shimmed and bolted up with some sealant.
From memory i just removed one shim from the top of each side and that was enough to give the correct drag for bearing preload.

[101RRS]

Thanks Ron,

The guy used a huge tyre iron and levered all the tie rod ends and they all went up and down - as you indicated they would. I actually thought mine were OK until the guy did this as in my box of spares I have a whole bunch of old ones and as the 101 has done 120,000km I figured the installed ones would be OK. All of my tie rod ends have no sideways movement except for one so I assume the springs are doing their job. I remember you talking about the grease nibbles and will do the same.

When I get back from my upcoming trip I will do the front axle - it has to be pulled to bits to put the arb locker in. So I will do the lot.

I will have to decide if I want to stay with greased swivels (with a little extra oil added) or change back to oil.

Cheers

Garry

[PeterP]

Still waiting for the shims to get the bearing preload right on CanDo.
I put new Raiko bushes and fibre thrust washers in the top, only $16.90 each side from Anthony. The original ones had a small amount of slop even though they looked good.
Kept the original lower taper bearings as they looked fine.
Rod ends all looked fine, just needed new rubbers. Ron's grease nipple mod will be done while I have it out.
Both shocks and the steering damper seem fine, just cleaned them up. Getting the shocks back on was a much bigger challenge than I expected.

Cheers,
Peter

[101RRS]

Yep shocks can a real pain to get in when everything is new.

Where are you getting the shims from?

I pulled the inlet manifold off yesterday - what a pain of a job. The manifold itself only took 5 mins but the rest of the crap but mainly the 24v alternator took hours.

My front end will have to wait for a little while and I will do the entire steering and front end in one go - am putting in a new steering column, relay, and tie rods as needed.

Garry

[PeterP]

Where are you getting the shims from?

I pulled the inlet manifold off yesterday - what a pain of a job. The manifold itself only took 5 mins but the rest of the crap but mainly the 24v alternator took hours.
Shims from LRSeries.com. They come in .1, .3, .8 mm thickness. I need .8's.

Know what pain you went through with the inlet manifold. I went onto removing heads also before deciding to pulling the whole motor, GGGGrrrrrr!

Peter

[101RRS]

Shims from LRSeries.com. They come in .1, .3, .8 mm thickness. I need .8's.

Know what pain you went through with the inlet manifold. I went onto removing heads also before deciding to pulling the whole motor, GGGGrrrrrr!

Peter

I cannot believe that there is just a light bit of tin plate to seal the top of the engine. Why not a cast plate like many other engines and two simple manifolds with the left carby feeding the left side of the engine and the right carby doing the right. May jag with four CD175s, does this with a much simpler arrangement than what is on the 101. Anyway - the manifold is back on - interestingly that the gasket does not fit real well and could let in air from the top of the inlet ports - extra sealant hopefully has fixed this.

As far as the front axle is concerned - with the exception of the slack steering column my 101 steers quite well - no clonks or darting over the place, I certainly cannot feel the slack swivel pins when driving.

So when is yours back on the road?

Garry

[PeterP]

I cannot believe that there is just a light bit of tin plate to seal the top of the engine. Garry I could not believe it either, I used the fibre replacement one on mine.

So when is yours back on the road? Garry
Since taking a bit of time off I am starting to wonder how I managed to fit working in before. ;)
Wrestled the pinion collapsable spacer into submission. and put the preload on the tighter side of spec, have a look at what I found ->https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/06/1548.jpg
With the heat blueing on the inside of the bearing and on the shaft I can see where the noise was coming from, hope things holds up with just a new bearing.

Hopefully be testing this weekend.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/06/1549.jpg

Latest website additions here - LR101FC - Progress May 2010 (http://users.comcen.com.au/~peterp/LR101FC%20Progress/May10/index.html)
Cheers,
Peter

[PeterP]

Got it all back together and running and the front diff is working and sounding fine.
Still got some noises to work on but it is going well.

Peter