Ford to use LR TDV6?

[p38arover]

I saw in the CarsGuide section of today's Northern Territory News that the Ford Territory will be released with a variant of the LR TDV6 engine from the Disco.

Ahh, here we are: Ford Territory won't go LPG | Review | carsguide.com.au (http://www.carsguide.com.au/site/news-and-reviews/car-news/ford_territory_wont_go_lpg)

[LandyAndy]

Yes Ron
They have had several test mules running around the country for some time.
They should also drop it into the Falcoon,it would go well and sel VERY well in the country!!!
Andrew

[inside]

I think this is how it works. We know Ford used to own LR but Ford also got along well with PSA (Peugeot/Citroen). So Ford and PSA got together and decided to build diesel engines to put in their cars, this is why the Pug 407 has the TDV6 from a Disco, well not the same tune but the same engine maybe with more turbos or something.

Anyway the TDV6 engine has been around since 2004 or thereabouts and has moved on as can be seen in the new LRs and Jags. But Ford still has financial interest the TDV6 so why not put it in the Aussie Territory and sell some more units.

So why is TATA still using Ford engines in JLRs? Because they have to, it was part of the deal but it's not like TATA had their own engines to put in however it wouldn't surprise me that once that part of the deal is over, maybe 5 years or so, you may see FIAT engines powering Land Rovers.

domain-b.com : Fiat eyes a slice of Tata's Jaguar-Land Rover business (http://www.domain-b.com/companies/companies_f/Fiat_India/20080905_jaguar-land_rover_business.html)

[p38arover]

Yes Ron
They have had several test mules running around the country for some time.
They should also drop it into the Falcoon,it would go well and sel VERY well in the country!!!
Andrew

Agreed but this is the first I've seen where it looks like it actually might happen. I reckon it could be a good thing for LR. Once more people see just how good the LR (Peugeot/Jaguar/LR :D ) engine is, more might just be attracted to LR.

Fancy being able to go to a Ford dealer in the bush when one has an engine problem - or even getting a non-LR mechanic to do an oil change. (I know that sounds odd but do you think I could find anyone in Derby who'd do an oil change on the Disco when my daughter was using it up there!)

[3toes]

Ford should have put this engine into the full Falcon range 5 years ago. It is not like they do not have an auto capable of being put behind it.

Sorry to say it but think the lack of this engine which is a blind freddy decision says a lot about the focus of Fords local management and the problems they are having finding a place in the bigger Ford picture.

An added bonus is that GM has no counter for this engine in their range.

[scarry]

When ford sold LR/Jag,part of the deal was there would be parts supplied to each other for at least 15yrs.

Wait for the territory to come out with the TDV6,i bet it is advertised as a "new" engine,even though the engine has been in vehicles for over 6 yrs.
It will match well to the ZF auto which they already use.

[d2dave]

The other up side to this is that down the track there will be a good supply of SH engines should one be needed as D3's start to age.

Dave.

[81stubee]

It was in Melbourne's cars guide (Herald Scum) yesterday as well, and has been talked about for quite a while.

Originally the TDV6 was going to go into falcon and territory and replace the 4.0l six as the preferred engine for towing, while the base cars and fleet would get an imported american V6. This was due to the 4.0l six not being compliant for the new Euro IV emissions coming out in june this year. In the meantime some of the smart managers at ford secretly began a program for making the six meet the new Euro IV. When the GFC hit last year it was no longer profitable to import the American V6 and Ford OZ were asked how hard it would be to keep using the 4.0l six, well they said we actually have one already....

What they are talking about now is that the TDV6 will go into the territory and the Falcon will get the option of either the petrol 4.0l or a Liquid Gas Injection version.

This could work quite well as the territory is more likely to be the vehicle for remote travel where diesel is plentiful, while all the sales rep falcons are more likely to be used where LPG is more plentiful.

None of this even mentions the obvious benefits to the TDV6 in the Disco 3/4 even with the changes between the models, there will still be quite a few common parts.

Stu

[PAT303]

Agreed but this is the first I've seen where it looks like it actually might happen. I reckon it could be a good thing for LR. Once more people see just how good the LR (Peugeot/Jaguar/LR :D ) engine is, more might just be attracted to LR.

Fancy being able to go to a Ford dealer in the bush when one has an engine problem - or even getting a non-LR mechanic to do an oil change. (I know that sounds odd but do you think I could find anyone in Derby who'd do an oil change on the Disco when my daughter was using it up there!)

Makes you wonder why LR and Ford don't get into bed together,it would solve Fords lack of a bush vehicle and LR's lack of rural dealers. Pat

[p38arover]

Makes you wonder why LR and Ford don't get into bed together,it would solve Fords lack of a bush vehicle and LR's lack of rural dealers. Pat

They couldn't even do that when Ford owned LR!

[PhilipA]

Yes and just think they are using the Defender engine in the Transit too!!!

Er isn't this thread a bit "ass about".

I will bet that the cost of the TDV6 is the major deterrent to its use in Australia. Engineering is the easy part. You have to be able to price it where people will pay for it.

Remember the D3 Diesel was over 10K dearer than the petrol V6.

( another darn LR engine that Ford had STOLEN and used in about 5 million cars and trucks starting with the Capri V6 in 1970 or thereabouts).
Regards Philip A

[p38arover]

( another darn LR engine that Ford had STOLEN and used in about 5 million cars and trucks starting with the Capri V6 in 1970 or thereabouts).
Regards Philip A

From where did the Capri Essex V6 come? I thought it was derived from one of Ford Germany's engines.



History. --The Essex engine was arguably the first mass produced V6 in the world, and has since gone on to power, among others,TVR, Reliant Scimitar,Gilbern and AC cars. It wasn't even designed for a car, but for a van -the Transit. -- -----------Called the Essex simply because thats where it was made, it had to be a very versatile engine from the beginning. ------Over its history, it has powered everything Ford from Zodiacs to Capris. As they were made until 1988 for the Transit, you can still find a relatively young engine but be careful when buying. Find and build a good one and you'll discover the joys of torque. Forget about revs unless you're getting serious and concentrate on low down punch instead.

[PhilipA]

AFAIR there were two families of V6 the "Essex" which was 3 litre and the "Cologne" which was 2.6 and 2.8 litres.
The 2.8 was fitted to the Capri RS of which a few were sold in Australia while the Essex was in the earlier Capri GTV6..

Now I am not sure which one became the Explorer engine but I think it was the Cologne. Because they originally came with pushrods they retain the original camshaft position, which is now a jackshaft which feeds timing chains to the OHCs on the BACK of the engine. Hence the horrific expense of changing timing chains. If I had a Disco3 V6 I would be changing oil every 5K.

A venerable engine indeed and undoubtedly cheap by now.

Regards Philip A

[PhilipA]

Further a quote from Wiki


The original Ford Cologne V6, also known as the Ford Taunus V6, is a series of 60° cast iron (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Cast_iron) block V6 (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/V6) engines (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine) produced continuously by the Ford Motor Company (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Ford_Motor_Company) in Cologne (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Cologne), Germany (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Germany) since 1968. In its original form, it was closely related to the Ford Taunus V4 engine (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Ford_Taunus_V4_engine), adding two cylinders and no longer requiring a balance shaft (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Balance_shaft).
Throughout its production run, the Cologne V6 has evolved from the engine displacements (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Engine_displacement) of 1.8, 2.0, 2.3, 2.4, 2.6, 2.8, 2.9 and 4.0 litres (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Litre) engines. All except the Cosworth 24v derivative and later 4.0 litre SOHC engines were pushrod (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Pushrod_engine) overhead valve (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Overhead_valve) engines, with a single camshaft (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Camshaft) between the banks. The 4.0 litre SOHC version remains in production and is the only version of the engine currently offered, with 210 hp (160 kW) and 240 ft·lbf (330 N·m) torque.
Originally, the Cologne V6 was installed in vehicles intended for Germany (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Germany) and continental Europe (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Continental_Europe), while the British (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/United_Kingdom) "Essex" V6 (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Ford_Essex_V6_engine_(UK)) was used in cars for the British market. Later, the Cologne V6 largely replaced the Essex V6 for British-market vehicles. These engines were also used in the United States (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/United_States), especially in compact trucks.
The older fuel injected Cologne engine is lighter and more powerful than the equivalent Essex V6 even though its maximum engine displacement is smaller, but it produces less torque (Cologne V6 162 lb·ft (220 N·m) versus Essex V6 174 ft·lbf).
The Cologne V6 was made to be very compatible in installation with the Taunus V4, having the same transmission (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Transmission_(mechanics)) bolt pattern, the same engine mounts (http://www.aulro.com/w/index.php'title=Engine_mount&action=edit&redlink=1), and in many versions, a cylinder head (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Cylinder_head) featuring "siamesed" exhaust passages, which reduced the three exhaust outlets down to two on each side. The latter feature was great for compatibility, but poor for performance. The 2.4, 2.9 and 4.0 had three exhaust ports, making them preferable.
The engine was available in both carburetted (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Carburettor) and fuel injected (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Fuel_injection) form.

My memory isn't too bad for an oldie.
BTW all of teh first Capri V6s which came to OZ in teh first CKD shipment had to have their valve seals replaced as they all smoked unbelievably from teh engines sitting for a year or so before being shipped to OZ. Either that or the poms gave us the crap.
I remember driving one on intro and you couldn't see out teh back.
Regards Philip A

[p38arover]

Way back then, I always wanted a 3 litre V6 to put in my Transit which had the 1.7 litre V4. I very nearly bought a long V8 (out of the Terrier truck) - they were $400 brand new from BMH. My local Leyland dealer (Ron Barrett in Penrith) had one on the floor but I just couldn't afford or justify the $400 to buy it. They came complete with starter, alternator, exhaust manifolds, carbs, the lot.

$400 for a detuned 4.4 litre P76 motor! <sob>

[loanrangie]

The other up side to this is that down the track there will be a good supply of SH engines should one be needed as D3's start to age.

Dave.

Even better for a disco 1/2 or defender engine swap .

[loanrangie]

AFAIR there were two families of V6 the "Essex" which was 3 litre and the "Cologne" which was 2.6 and 2.8 litres.
The 2.8 was fitted to the Capri RS of which a few were sold in Australia while the Essex was in the earlier Capri GTV6..

Now I am not sure which one became the Explorer engine but I think it was the Cologne. Because they originally came with pushrods they retain the original camshaft position, which is now a jackshaft which feeds timing chains to the OHCs on the BACK of the engine. Hence the horrific expense of changing timing chains. If I had a Disco3 V6 I would be changing oil every 5K.

A venerable engine indeed and undoubtedly cheap by now.

Regards Philip A

Neither became the exploder engine at first, the exploder started out with a 3.8 even fire 90 degree V6 almost identical to the buick and even chev V6 having a crank split 30 degrees on each conrod journal. The 4.0ltr if its a 60 degree V6 possibly came from the cologne family. I know that the ford Taurus had a DOHC 60 degree V6 jointly designed with yamaha which is completely different to the other ford V6 engines .

[PhilipA]

Currently the only version of the Cologne engine still in production, the SOHC (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/SOHC) version was introduced in 1997 in the Ford Explorer, alongside the original pushrod version. It features a variable length intake manifold (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Variable_length_intake_manifold) and produces 210 hp (157 kW) and 245 lb·ft (332 N·m)f. It uses a jackshaft in place of a camshaft to drive a timing chain to each cylinder head. Three timing chains are used, one from the crank to the jackshaft, one in the front of the engine to drive the cam for the left bank, and one on the back of the engine to drive the cam for the right bank. Ford Power Products sells this engine as the SOHC-640.[2] (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/newreply.php'do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1242436#cite_note-Ford_Power_Products_Catalogue-1)
A version of the engine is used in the Land Rover LR3 (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Land_Rover_Discovery) in Australia and Canada, producing 216 hp (161 kW) and 269 lb·ft (365 N·m) of torque at 3000 rpm. The Land Rover version of the engine became unavailable in the United States for the 2008 model year.[3] (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/newreply.php'do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1242436#cite_note-2)
Applications:

2001–present Ford Ranger (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Ford_Ranger)
2001–2009 Mazda B-Series (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Mazda_B-Series)
1997–2010 Ford Explorer (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Ford_Explorer)/Mercury Mountaineer (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Mercury_Mountaineer)
2005–2010 Ford Mustang (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Ford_Mustang)
2005–2009 Land Rover LR3 (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Land_Rover_Discovery)

I almost added this to the first Wiki quote.
Regards Philip A

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Agreed but this is the first I've seen where it looks like it actually might happen. I reckon it could be a good thing for LR. Once more people see just how good the LR (Peugeot/Jaguar/LR :D ) engine is, more might just be attracted to LR.Or it may see Ford people buying Holdens because they'd never have anything to do with the French or Land Rover! :D

[isuzubob]

The late Geoff Polites instigated the diesel Territory program before he was bumped upstairs in '05 to run JLR when it was still part of the Premier Automotive Group. His successor at Ford Oz (American Bill Osbourne?) canned the program. His successor (another Yank, name escapes me at the moment) resurrected the program.

A white Territory diesel has been running around Geelong for around six months at least. Ford are still saying 2011 before production, but could as a long shot, have a pre-pro on display at the Australian Motor Show in SinCity in October to generate interest. From insider reports before it was announced that Ford were updating the local I6 to comply with Euro IV emissions the Duratec 3.5 V6 was never going to fit into the FG Falcon without major front sub-assembly re-working (something to do with interference of the steering rack I'm lead to believe). For the same reason there won't be a diesel Falcon. Shame, I'd have a V6 diesel auto Falcon ute in a flash.

Rob W

[PhilipA]

Yes but at $10K extra?

I was idly pondering the business case and at $47k for a Territory Ford would IMHO not sell many.

They would probably not have to pay the same as LR being one of the family , but I wonder what the incremental cost is over an I6 , the tooling for which started with the XK in 1960. AFAIK the bore centres are still the same. It's older than the Cologne V6 but low volume so probably more expensive.. I believe it is the only engine of that family still produced, but you never know they still may be making them in Brazil.
Regards Philip A

[Bushwanderer]

Hi Phillip,
Many people in Oz and the UK have opted for the TDV6 over the petrol variants, even with the price premium. To such an extent that the petrol variants were discontinued for the D3 in the UK.

Best Wishes,
Peter