Oiling leafs

[dullbird]

Hi

was wondering about the oiling of leaf springs:)...

can you use simple old engine oil? have others done theirs? do you just brush it on or is it best to lay them in a bath of something.

Might sound like a stupid question but we are just wondering the best way to go about it.


Lou

[isuzutoo-eh]

G'day Lou,
After a wash and scrub with a wire bristle brush, and using my best & most expensive paintbrush I splashed a 50:50 mix of diesel and used engine oil over my leaf springs. Using a high quality brush is critical for this sort of job, partners/housemates/siblings/parents toothbrushes are okay too. Don't forget to put the brush back afterwards.
Even if its not the best thing, it'll at least halt corrosion and penetrate between the leaves so will make later jobs easier.

[dullbird]

thats kind of what I figured I was hoping people wouldn't go "oh no they must be parted and soak individually in only the best unused vavoline" :lol2:

[JDNSW]

Oiling leaf springs has had a mixed press. On the positive side, it is something that has been done since before motor vehicles to improve the ride, and it does! On the negative, there is a school of thought that it will result in dust being held between the leaves and accelerate wear. This may be so, but the absence of lubrication means water will get in and the resulting rust will in many cases be worse than the dust. My overall conclusion is marginally in favour.

The optimum system is that used in up market cars in the pre-coil days - a fitted leather gaiter, which is automatically given a shot of oil, either by pressing a pedal, or using vacuum or oil pressure every time the engine is started.

Next down the list is the fitted gaiters, but no automatic oiling. This, I consider, is not a good idea, as unless regularly disassembled and re-oiled, they will get water and mud or dust in them. (same problem with gaiters to protect the front swivels)

Then you can do what I have done. Remove and disassemble the springs, clean each leaf and reassemble, coating the mating surfaces with a suitable grease that is resistant to being washed out - I used anti-seize compound, but next time might use MoS2 grease.

The advantage of this method is that you do not have to use a lubricant with penetrating ability, so it will stay there (better).

As a last resort, painting the springs with oil. The type of oil is not very important, as it won't be there for very long, but I would think used engine oil would work, although there are better choices - better penetration, less mess and more water repellant - don't forget engine oil has detergent in it, which will help the water you drive through to wash the oil out. If you are doing this, help the oil to penetrate by taking the load off the springs. I have seen devices described to spread the leaves to help the oil to penetrate - a sort of clamp with wedge shaped jaws.

John

[isuzutoo-eh]

A 'Proper' restoration would involve tenderly seperating the leaves, caressing the sensitive metal fillets with a nail file till warm and shiny, then lovingly smearing Johnson's Baby Oil upon each and every surface with an exfoliating sponge before reassembling in a sacred ritual involving more baby oil and lighted candles.

For everyone else there is old sump oil.

[dullbird]

Oiling leaf springs has had a mixed press. On the positive side, it is something that has been done since before motor vehicles to improve the ride, and it does! On the negative, there is a school of thought that it will result in dust being held between the leaves and accelerate wear. This may be so, but the absence of lubrication means water will get in and the resulting rust will in many cases be worse than the dust. My overall conclusion is marginally in favour.

The optimum system is that used in up market cars in the pre-coil days - a fitted leather gaiter, which is automatically given a shot of oil, either by pressing a pedal, or using vacuum or oil pressure every time the engine is started.

Next down the list is the fitted gaiters, but no automatic oiling. This, I consider, is not a good idea, as unless regularly disassembled and re-oiled, they will get water and mud or dust in them. (same problem with gaiters to protect the front swivels)


Then you can do what I have done. Remove and disassemble the springs, clean each leaf and reassemble, coating the mating surfaces with a suitable grease that is resistant to being washed out - I used anti-seize compound, but next time might use MoS2 grease.The advantage of this method is that you do not have to use a lubricant with penetrating ability, so it will stay there (better).

As a last resort, painting the springs with oil. The type of oil is not very important, as it won't be there for very long, but I would think used engine oil would work, although there are better choices - better penetration, less mess and more water repellant - don't forget engine oil has detergent in it, which will help the water you drive through to wash the oil out. If you are doing this, help the oil to penetrate by taking the load off the springs. I have seen devices described to spread the leaves to help the oil to penetrate - a sort of clamp with wedge shaped jaws.

John

hi john what do you mean by clean, take an angle grinder or something with a wire wheel or something...to it or just a wire brush?

our springs have a fair bit of surface rust....could the springs be coated with something that is not on the mating sides like paint perhaps? or could we just do the anti freeze thing and then once back together give it a lick of sump oil?

[JDNSW]

hi john what do you mean by clean take an angle grinder or something with it with a wire wheel or something...

our springs have a fair bit of surface rust....could the springs be coated with something that is not on the mating sides? or could we just do the anti freeze things and then once back together give it a lick of sump oil?

What I actually did was to remove all (or nearly all) the rust with a wire brush in an angle grinder. I then looked at where there is in many cases a step worn in the leaf where the next leaf usually sits under load - this step will make the ride harder as the leaf has to left over it when you hit a bump. So I smoothed these down using a belt sander (less likely to take too much than an angle grinder). With this preparation I wiped them down with thinners and painted them (black) with a pressure pack and allowed them to dry before assembling - this is to paint the edges and to protect the metal where there is no grease. They were then painted with antiseize before assembling.

I did one spring at a time to make sure I did not mix the leaves. Landrover springs are, I think, all symmetrical, but it is probably best to keep the leaves all facing the way they were.

Bout time I did mine again, I think!

John

[numpty]

I agree with all of the above, but it is a pain to disassemble the spring packs which are held together with the flat spring clamps. I have done this a few times in the past and use moly grease between the leaves after cleaning using a flap disc in the angle grinder.

Lanolin spray works well on assembled springs and shackle bushes too.

[BigJon]

What about if you oil them then wrap them in self amalgamating tape?
That would keep the lubricant in and the dirt and water out. Then you would wrap race tape over the self amalgamating tape to protect it.

[dullbird]

can springs be painted or not?

[isuzutoo-eh]

If the springs are oily, the paint won't stick anyway

[dullbird]

true didn't really think of that

[RobHay]

can springs be painted or not?


Yes they can.....and more than likily need to be

[isuzurover]

Firstly, spring steel is VERY hard.

If there is noticeable rust between the leaves, pull them apart and clean with a wire brush or sanding disc on an angle grinder. Note - be careful as they can come apart with a bit of force when you remove the centre bolt.

When you reassemble, paint the entire spring pack if you wish.

After the paint has dried, grease them if you want. The best product I have found is "spray grease" though motorcycle chain oil is OK as well. Anything thinner like engine oil won't stay around. Those who deride greasing or say the grit will wear away the springs must be smiking some good stuff. After 20+ years of abuse with the army (including vietnam) and almost 10 years in private hands my (rear) leaves had minimal wear. The fronts were FUBAR from trips to the beach - NOT wear. The rears are still working fine, despite being modded for a LOT more flex and being greased regularly for 10 years.

[JDNSW]

What about if you oil them then wrap them in self amalgamating tape?
That would keep the lubricant in and the dirt and water out. Then you would wrap race tape over the self amalgamating tape to protect it.

Unfortunately, this will almost certainly keep the water IN not out. Even the best job will not stop the water getting in, but it doesn't seem to take much to keep it there!

John

[JDNSW]

.... Note - be careful as they can come apart with a bit of force when you remove the centre bolt.

.......


Clamp the spring in a vice to keep the leaves together while you undo the centrebolt, gradually release the vice after removing the nut. Reverse procedure to reassemble.

John

[korg20000bc]

I read in Land Rover Owner magazine to seperate the leafs, oil/grease mix in between then wrap the whole lot in gaffer tape- starting from the front and finishing at the rear. That way, its harder to have water forced in... so they said.

[dullbird]

I think I might leave them together at this point...I will look closely tomorrow in the light but I think the leafs just have a fair bit of mud and surface rust on them

[isuzurover]

I think I might leave them together at this point...I will look closely tomorrow in the light but I think the leafs just have a fair bit of mud and surface rust on them

It is a good idea to take them apart and give them a clean if you have the time.

Especially if the leaves are spreading - i.e. the spring pack becomes wider just after the clamped area.

[series3]

If I was to sandblast a set of leafs to remove the fair amount of rust buildup on them, would this significantly reduce thier strength and resistance? I.e is it not a good idea?

[isuzurover]

If I was to sandblast a set of leafs to remove the fair amount of rust buildup on them, would this significantly reduce thier strength and resistance? I.e is it not a good idea?

Sandblasting may work like peening and relieve stress. i.e. they may be flat afterwards and need to be reset.

[chazza]

If I was to sandblast a set of leafs to remove the fair amount of rust buildup on them, would this significantly reduce thier strength and resistance? I.e is it not a good idea?

I advise against sand blasting as well - if you want to completely remove the rust, soak them in molasses solution.

Check out the "parabolic springs" thread on the S3 forum where much of this has been discussed before and has some beaut pics of Ben's Rover off-road,

Cheers Charlie

[dullbird]

It is a good idea to take them apart and give them a clean if you have the time.

Especially if the leaves are spreading - i.e. the spring pack becomes wider just after the clamped area.


I will take a picture of them as I think the springs aren't in bad condition just a bit of surface rust...they don't appear to be spreading they look really tight:o:)

[dullbird]

this is the springs sorry not a great pic

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/05/1332.jpg

the bottom one seems to look tight as does the top however noticed the top has a small gap towards the bottom....

I really dont want to have to split them unless I really really need to

[Bigbjorn]

There is a MoS2 lacquer available in aerosol cans. This is a magic product for lubing leaf springs.

Pull them apart, clean and degrease the leaves and coat the underside of each leaf except the bottom leaf with the lacquer, reassemble and paint.

[isuzurover]

this is the springs sorry not a great pic


the bottom one seems to look tight as does the top however noticed the top has a small gap towards the bottom....

I really dont want to have to split them unless I really really need to

They look in great condition. But if you have a spare 30 mins it is still worth taking them apart and removing the surface rust. Or - the minimal effort way would be to soak the spring pack in either phosphoric acid or molasses.

[dullbird]

molasses? does that take the rust off does it? is that like the molasses you can give to horses? I know that seems like a dumb question maybe it is :lol2:

[BigJon]

That is the stuff. I reckon it has been discussed here before. A search might turn something up.

[isuzurover]

There was a mamma mole, a papa mole, and a baby mole.

They lived in a hole outside of a farm house out in the country.

The papa mole reached his head out of the hole and said,

"Mmmmm, I smell sausage."



The mama mole reached her head outside of the hole and said

"Mmmmmm, I smell pancakes."



The baby mole tried to reach his head outside the hole

but couldn't because of the two bigger moles.

The baby mole said, "The only thing I can smell is molasses."

But seriously, have a read here:
Morris Register of Victoria - Dissolving Rust (http://www.moreg.org.au/dissolving_rust.htm)

[dullbird]

wow thanks for that really interesting......

I would just have to find an old bath tub or something that I can do this in I guess...not sure I'm going to fit me springs in bucket :lol2:

[groucho]

Those springs don't look too bad. Just clean them up and put them back.. All depends how far you want to go. Stripping them down to clean them. They will be getting past their use by date by now with rust and tiny stress cracks
and losing some set. Oiling them .I am guilty of doing that only to stop them rusting further. A leaf spring works on friction between the leaves. Rusty springs won't work properly. Greasy or oily springs will cause springs to flex more eg less friction and make them softer. ....

[JohnF]

wow thanks for that really interesting......

I would just have to find an old bath tub or something that I can do this in I guess...not sure I'm going to fit me springs in bucket :lol2:

Don't know but may be a length of plastic sewage pipe may do it, with a cap on one end.

You can do one half in a bucket then turn it over for other half.

[isuzurover]

A leaf spring works on friction between the leaves. Rusty springs won't work properly. Greasy or oily springs will cause springs to flex more eg less friction and make them softer. ....

Interleaf friction affects damping, but has little or no effect on overall travel IME. Packs with a lot of leaves have a lot of damping (apparently some trucks don't need shock absorbers), which is why you need to upgrade shocks when fitting parabolics or coils. SO greasing your springs will keep them rust free and give you a slightly smoother ride, but that is it.

On the topic of flex, those 8-leaf springs will flex very little unless heavily loaded. Now is a good time to remove a leaf or two - and maybe to remove the bolts from the two outer clamps to increase down travel.

[dullbird]

at this moment in time...I'm looking at just getting the car on the road...

I'm not to worried about springs as long as they work and look ok (tidied up)

reason being is I would rather spend the time doing some of the other stuff that needs to be assembled and disassembled..

The way I see it is as long as the springs work and look ok to a blue slip man then I'm happy as springs can come off and be rebuilt or changed at any time they are easy to get to.

if I remove a leaf or two though wouldn't that effect the amount we can carry?

I dont car about flex its never going to go offroad only to carry heavy good around and to putt putt round local villages

[isuzurover]

at this moment in time...I'm looking at just getting the car on the road...


OK - then just brush on some rust converter, wash off, paint, and when you have it all back together flex up the suspension and apply a small amount of grease between the leaves.




if I remove a leaf or two though wouldn't that effect the amount we can carry?

I dont car about flex its never going to go offroad only to carry heavy good around and to putt putt round local villages

Slightly. But with the current springs you can put 750 lb in the back and the suspension will only drop an inch. I have the same springs with 2 leaves removed and reset. I have carries 1.2T a couple of times... :angel:

If load carrying ability is more important than comfort though, then maybe it is best to keep them standard.

[dullbird]

Thanks for the advice Ben:thumbsup:

[gromit]

You could always add that Rolls Royce touch by fitting leather gaiters....
Welcome to Wefco Gaiters (http://www.wefco-gaiters.com/)

Not a great deal of info on the website but basically tailor made leather gaiters that buckle together over the spring.

I remember on an Austin Somerset I had some years ago that there were zinc sheets between each leaf of the spring pack, these maybe stopped the corrosion and gave something for the leaves to slide on. Over time they did get thinner and extruded out the sides.

I'd have to agree with the other comments on greasing, may improve ride but attracts dirt unless they are covered after greasing. Years ago my father used a greased hessian tape that was used to protect gas pipes buried underground. The outside soon got covered in dirt and the grease dried out but inside the grease was kept on the spring and dirt free.


Colin

[chazza]

If anyone is really worried about lubricating leaf springs and wearing them out quicker don't be, because:
1. Dry springs get grit and dirt in them as well and once it is between the leaves it won't come out easily.
2. Dry springs rust, which is a nasty abrasive in its own right - the proof is in the wear-steps.
3. Dry lubricants such as graphite and molybdenum di-sulphide can be used instead of wet ones.
4. If the springs get really dirty, jack the car up and support it on chassis stands and allow the axle to drop under its own weight so that the leaves separate. Blast them with high-pressure water and re-lubricate.
5. Even if lubricated springs wear faster than dry ones - and I don't believe they do - it would still be worth doing for the much more comfortable ride!

Cheers Charlie

[peterg1001]

Well, if anyone is interested in my own sad (ish) story about rear springs, here it is

Sorting out the rear suspension (http://greenacre.biz/landrover/957_rearsuspension/957_rearsuspension.htm)

Peter

[akelly]

Well, if anyone is interested in my own sad (ish) story about rear springs, here it is

Sorting out the rear suspension (http://greenacre.biz/landrover/957_rearsuspension/957_rearsuspension.htm)

Peter

I dont want to sound like a tool Peter, but why didn't you return the wrong springs and get the correct springs?

Cheers,

Adam

[peterg1001]

I tried and failed - the local agent didn't want to accept responsibility - there are times when you just have to cut your losses.

Peter

[UncleHo]

G'day Folks :)

Interesting thread this one, when I rebuilt the springs in my 109 2a GS in 1990 as they were badly rust expanded, I seperated the leaves, one spring pack at a time,I then LIGHTLY cleaned them with a 4"(100mm) angle grinder, and put a small(1/32")chamfer on each leaf end upper face, and a 1/16 radius on the corners,(this helps the springs slide) one of the big aftermarket suspension mobs used to manufacture like this for Japanese 4x4's and called it "Diamond Cut" sold a mutza of them $$$, I then painted them with HOT TAR, (road tar, heat until starting to smoke,use leather welding gloves for safety),and paint it on thinly,when cooled and set (1 day) re-assemble with new centre bolt. Paint can by used instead of Tar.

NOTE:the Right Hand Front Spring will stand up +1 to 2 inches higher when stood on their ends,(upside down) to compensate for the driver and fuel tank,109 only, (I replaced my bushes with standard rubber/steel original types) all leaves were radiused and chamfered and any lips on the underside of the leaves were feathered out,since then my vehicle has done about 260,000miles since 1992,and the bushes are just starting to get sloppy,and a little bit of spring sag, so this time they will have to be reset.

NOTE:early SWB's the rear right spring has the highest camber set(height);) On some original springs there will be a part number stamped on the underside of the second leaf at the front end of the spring,left and right No's are different

Hope this is a helpful guide.


cheers

[isuzurover]

Well, if anyone is interested in my own sad (ish) story about rear springs, here it is

Sorting out the rear suspension (http://greenacre.biz/landrover/957_rearsuspension/957_rearsuspension.htm)

Peter

Bugger

That was a lot of effort to go to when you could have had the springs reset to a lower camber and called it good.

I am sure the supplier would have some obligations given that they were new parts... Maybe worth contacting small claims?

[peterg1001]

Bugger

That was a lot of effort to go to when you could have had the springs reset to a lower camber and called it good.

I am sure the supplier would have some obligations given that they were new parts... Maybe worth contacting small claims?

Yes, it would have been cheaper to get the springs reset at Carroll's Springs. However, I didn't realise the tailshaft would need shortening, so using lowering blocks was the cheapest option before that realisation hit home.

The problem with trying small claims is that the springs are the "right" part. Proving that they're not set correctly is the problem. It would take days off work and many weeks (or months) to go through a tribunal - I went that route on a previous occasion, and it's extremely tedious.

I'm not happy with the outcome, but it was the least worst process from my point of view.

One day, after the vehicle is actually on the road (which may even be this year), I'll get the springs reset, acquire a new tailshaft (the existing one is significantly worn) and fix the whole thing up nicely.

One day . . .

Peter