92'RRC Brake Upgrade

[Hamish71]

Hi,

Correction....its a 92 built, MY93 RRC.

I did a search in the RRC channel, and couldnt find the answer there. Im sure it will be here somewhere though.

Background. Went up to the Vic high country with some friends on the weekend. I was "winch engineer" for a mate of mine. He has a heavily modified 93 RRC. Its on 35s, big lift, no abs, axles/diffs all done, arb air lockers front and rear, Disco cdl/auto, 4.6l V8. Generaly, point it at a hill, or obstacle, and it copes. However, whilst going down Blue Rag, he was standing on the brake pedal at one stage and it would NOT stop.

Question. What are the options for improving brakes? I have heard that simply using a TRW Lucas Pad improves things substantially. I have also heard that you can use a Defender caliper which is a significnt improvement? If this is the case, is it because its a better caliper, or because it allows the use of a larger disc?

All advice genuinely appreciated.

[mike 90 RR]

Just a starter for you .... Replace all the rubber flex brake hoses with new ones ...

Have a look at the disc area, any oil been leaking near there? ..cause the pads will suck it up like a sponge (= replace)

Mike

[Rangier Rover]

Defender front calipers, green stuff pads, remove the rear proportioning valve.

[Hamish71]

Some additional info...current brakes are all in good condition, with braided lines.

With the Defencer callipers, do you use the existing discs? Why do they improve braking?

[Rangier Rover]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/search.php'searchid=1764200

[Hamish71]

Australian Land Rover Owners (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/search.php'searchid=1764200)
When i follow that link, i get nothing...no search returns. SO thats not very helpful...unless you are trying to tell me that no such information exists? Which Im sure is not true.

[mike 90 RR]

When i follow that link, i get nothing...

It was linked OK ... but not now ... Do a search on "Defender Callipers" ... The reading material should keep you busy for ages ...

Mike

[Rangier Rover]

It was linked OK ... but not now ... Do a search on "Defender Callipers" ... The reading material should keep you busy for ages ...

Mike


When i follow that link, i get nothing...no search returns. SO thats not very helpful...unless you are trying to tell me that no such information exists? Which Im sure is not true.

Sorry about that. Thought I placed a shortcut to some relevant search results. :(

[mike 90 RR]

Thought I placed a shortcut to some relevant search results. :(

.... You did ..... :)

... Defendher Calliper .... (http://www.cadillaccowgirlco.com/images/pinup_cowgirl-1.jpg)



:angel:

Mike

[Hamish71]

retro soft porn?

[Hamish71]

OK, I have done searches on Classic brake upgrade, defender calliper(s), etc, and cant find an answer to my questions.

Specifically:

1. is the TRW Lucas brake pad a siginificant improvement over others?

2. is the defender calliper a significant upgrade over RRC calliper, and why?

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

If it's an My93, doesn't it have the 4 spot AP Racing calipers and Wabco brake setup??? Pretty hard pressed to beat that setup. I have it in my 93 an if I could get the same setup for the D2a, i would be one happy camper!!! The pump
Powered wabco is by far the best setup. My classic is a April 93 build.

Cheers

Andrew


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hamish71]

This is one of those wierd change over models. Its actually a 92 build, but it has HALF the 93 stuff on it. Its a nightmare everytime you go to get parts for it. Im told it isnt uncommon for land rover to start "trying stuff" near model change over time.

[Rangier Rover]

I have driven a mates 92 Rangie on 33's with the wabco mated to vented defender setup. Pulls up great at highway speed. I believe solid rotors work better for off road though.

[Rangier Rover]

OK, I have done searches on Classic brake upgrade, defender calliper(s), etc, and cant find an answer to my questions.

Specifically:

1. is the TRW Lucas brake pad a siginificant improvement over others?

2. is the defender calliper a significant upgrade over RRC calliper, and why?

Cant answer the first one. On the second, the 110 caliper in effect has more leverage.
Also look at the rear proportioning valve as running 35's.

[HangOver]

just go for slotted rotors, they make a huge difference

[Hamish71]

I would think the slotted rotors would be better for heat dissipation?, but its not heat that is killing them.

Callipers sounds like the go.

[Hamish71]

Cant answer the first one. On the second, the 110 caliper in effect has more leverage.
Also look at the rear proportioning valve as running 35's.

I understand in theory the effect of the rear proportioning valve, but what am I "looking" at it for?

[trobbo]

I would think the slotted rotors would be better for heat dissipation?, but its not heat that is killing them.

Callipers sounds like the go.

vented will help with heat. slotted have groves in the surface that allow gas created in the friction between the brake pad and rotor to escape.

Slotted rotors are a big improvement and imo do more than the trw pads.

[HangOver]

slots aren't about dissipation they are about assisting to release gasses and providing extra friction. Lots cheaper than calipers :D

LOL what trobbo just said, what happens when you read a oage an reply later

[trobbo]

I understand in theory the effect of the rear proportioning valve, but what am I "looking" at it for?


it's really really pretty and if you shine a green light on it it will do something really funky :wasntme:

[Hamish71]

it's really really pretty and if you shine a green light on it it will do something really funky :wasntme:
Thanks for the helpful post. Perhaps I should be more specific....
My background is not 4wding, thought I am a keen inductee to the practice. I understand the theory of a proportioning valve, in terms of balancing the pressure provided to front and rear axles, normally for the purpose of providing more pressure to the front, less to the rear, so that rear brakes dont lock up as a result of having less load on them.

So, having said that, was the suggestion that the rear proportioning valve be adjusted, removed, or is it indeed to see how pretty it is under a green light (smart arse).

Im not sure I was clear before in describing the scenario. A pretty gnarly, very steep track, just (like 1 minute) after having had a 30 minute break at the top, going at less than 5 km an hour. So brakes werent hot (but not cold) speed not a factor, but pushing pedal to the floor, car wouldnt stop, just maintained about 2km an hour.

I wouldnt think vented disks would matter in this context, but im not an expert. Will they really?

Then the advice seems to be callipers, and shining a green light on the proportioner.

[rangieman]

Mmmm ever thought about vacume the brakes need vacume assistance , Not familiar with the wabco set up , i guess its a electric vacume pump ?

Smells of either siezed caliper or more or lack of vacume assistance in my opinion:cool:

[mike 90 RR]

car wouldnt stop, just maintained about 2km an hour.

I'll go out on a limb here .... Have a look at your / mates Callipers .... I recon they are a 1 piston style , verses the defender which I believe is a 2 piston set up

If you have a look at pad replacement pics, I think you will find that there are different pad sizes (more surface area) ....

Also, Oil contamination will stuff pads up quickly, so check or ask ya mate about the history of oil leaks

A little hint on the next time you have a "runaway" .... There is a hand brake that you can use .... Just hold the release button in and slowly pull it up to help control the ride, and to add some extra stopping power (assist the main brakes) ... as it will act in the same manner as a "engine brake" ... but don't "ride" the hand brake as it will overheat quickly. (+ Don't reef the hand brake as you very well snap uni joints, and that will mean no drive train)


Mike

[Rangier Rover]

Thanks for the helpful post. Perhaps I should be more specific....
My background is not 4wding, thought I am a keen inductee to the practice. I understand the theory of a proportioning valve, in terms of balancing the pressure provided to front and rear axles, normally for the purpose of providing more pressure to the front, less to the rear, so that rear brakes dont lock up as a result of having less load on them.

So, having said that, was the suggestion that the rear proportioning valve be adjusted, removed, or is it indeed to see how pretty it is under a green light (smart arse).

Im not sure I was clear before in describing the scenario. A pretty gnarly, very steep track, just (like 1 minute) after having had a 30 minute break at the top, going at less than 5 km an hour. So brakes werent hot (but not cold) speed not a factor, but pushing pedal to the floor, car wouldnt stop, just maintained about 2km an hour.

I wouldnt think vented disks would matter in this context, but im not an expert. Will they really?

Then the advice seems to be callipers, and shining a green light on the proportioner.

I may not be much help here but will try.

The vented disk heat up far quicker than solids. Hence solid are better at low speed. The vented also cool quicker so its a trade off. I personally have found the solid disc better for low speed work.

The Defender calipers have more displacement there for more leverage. This then will affect the ratio of the front to rear braking.
In my set up I run a update Disco 1 master cylinder. (Mines an 89 Model)
I have found I can get away with removing the proportioning valve when mostly off road as the brake are useless to you going backwards. I have had no dramas with locking up the rear end on the black top. Some others use an adjustable proportioning valve of a japper ute.

Other thing is, if running an auto, I find when the idle speed is up a bit it will push you wile in low range.


I'm only a dumb farmer these days so some one may correct some of this a bit;) Just trying to help:)

BTW, I have had very little to do with the wabco set up, so you may be restricted in what you can do.



If you search for long enough past the "cow girl" linky, you should eventually find the answers your looking for.

Tony

[C H T]

OK, I have done searches on Classic brake upgrade, defender calliper(s), etc, and cant find an answer to my questions.

Specifically:

1. is the TRW Lucas brake pad a siginificant improvement over others?

2. is the defender calliper a significant upgrade over RRC calliper, and why?

Hamish71

Defender front calipers use a slightly larger pad than the RR calipers. IMO the best combinbation is Disco 1 brake plumbing master cylinder and booster, with Disco 1 rear calipers and Defender front calipers with vented front discs. I fitted vented front discs to my Disco 1 which significantly improved brake performance. My Defender stops exceptionaly well with genuine pads and good quality discs.

If you converted your RR to D1 brakes (M/cyl, calipers, and plumbing utilising vented fronts (the calipers would need spacers fitting) I think that you would be quite happy with the result.

I recently had my RR Classic fitted with a standard booster retaining the original claipers - it does not stop nearly as well as my D!

I hope the above helps.

If you would like to discuss matters further PM me a phone number and I will give you a call.

Christopher

PS I have had a serious look at Landrover brakes

PPS Does your RR have ABS? Mine used to - deadly in the bush as it would not stop in certain circumstances hence reversion to non-ABS set up.

[PhilipA]

Just a few comments from a 92 non ABS RRC driver.
1 brakes get hot very quickly in low range down hill. And do not underestimate the time it takes for cool down.

2 The auto will push UP TO 1500rpm when the injectors will be cut off. So if it is safe let it go to 1500RPM and you will get much more engine braking. This is similar to the feeling AFAIK of Hill descent, when you think "uh oh" but you can be sure it will happen.

3 As detailed before judicious use of the handbrake is helpful.

4 In extreme emergency and going slowly AND for less than a few hundred metres , the auto can be put in reverse and it will provide LOTS of engine braking. This very quickly overheats the torque converter so is emergency only.

It sounds to me like the brakes were overheating. I have fitted EBC pads to mine but they are not the green stuff or yellow stuff. They have made little difference . The green stuff are promoted by EBC to have much more friction but I have yet to test them as they are EXPENSIVE and reputed to wear out discs very quickly.

RRCs seem to have insensitive brakes. I have had the experience on seeing a drop off to a river bed with my trailer on, of not being able to slow enough. I have new front discs and new master cylinder and the system has been pressure bled/flushed. No seized calipers as you can easily tell a seized caliper as the car will pull strongly in the other direction.
The next thing I will do with mine is replace the hoses but I just think they have insensitive brakes.
Regards Philip A

[350RRC]

Slotted rotors and Mintex pads make a difference.

I have all new everything in the brake system, including braided lines. Slotted rotors in the front only. Have gone from even tyre wear all round to the fronts wearing faster than the rears and now get brake dust on the front rims as well. Will be fitting slotted to the rear.

Mintex pads seem to grip better as they get hotter, i.e. if you hold constant pressure on the pedal you can feel them grip more and more as you come to a stop. Very cheap from Paddocks.

Was going to do Dougal's Defender caliper swap but they mightn't have fitted inside my 15" rims. These calipers apply more force because the piston dia is greater than that on a RRC.

cheers, DL

[Hamish71]

it's really really pretty and if you shine a green light on it it will do something really funky :wasntme:


Hey, einstein....you might have been right after all. I crack tested the proportioner and guess what.....it has a hairline crack in it. Cant see any visible leak, but the crack is definitely there. Thanks for prompting me to inspect it properly.....