When is a landy NOT a landy?

[Outlaw]

Not positive if this has been asked on the forum previously or not... however makes for a very interesting 'discussion' around a campfire after a few of BigDog's brews :cool: Soooooo


When does a Landy
(a generic term for ALL Land Rover manufactured vehicles :p)
No longer classify as a Landy???


Is it the diffs, engine, chassis, body, badge??? Love to hear your views and reasoning's :)

[Blknight.aus]

Chassis/fire wall and engine charateristics.

loose the chassis/firewall configuration and your changing the iconic shape of the landy.

once you get into huge power engines or rev monsters thats just not right, they're supposed to be slow economical but nigh on unstoppable donks.

[DRanged]

I suppose it would mostly come down to drive train. You dont really see people putting an 80 series Toyota, or GU Patrol bodies on a landy.

However drivetrain transplants as you know are very common.

I would say more than just diffs is too far. ie diffs, gearbox and trans and maybe engine of another brand would clasify it at non LR. (Mogrover)

On the other hand I would say mine is a LR mongrel. Main breed is RRC, Isuzu engine (county) R380 box (Disco) Defender calipers and so on.

Justin

[HangOver]

it's the BONNET shape !
loose that and the landy's gone

[THE 109]

What's with making things loose got to do with it?:D

[Hendrik]

As soon as you replace anything from factory with Jap crap its no longer a Landy...

***ducks for cover***

[dungarover]

As soon as you replace anything from factory with Jap crap its no longer a Landy...

***ducks for cover***

Agree, if I wanted a Toyota/Nissan I would have ****ing bought one that includes non-Rover engines, dashboards or gearboxes (the Isuzu 4BD1 is technically a factory fitted LR engine to the Stage1/County :D).

Tube buggies or 'cut down' LR's are the exception as they're purpose built rockrawlers and it's common sense to use the strongest and most economicallly available items :cool:

Trav

[Grimace]

when you stick a nissan badge on the bonnet :D

[Landy Smurf]

As soon as you replace anything from factory with Jap crap its no longer a Landy...

***ducks for cover***
totally agree,except with the isuzu

[DRanged]

As soon as you replace anything from factory with Jap crap its no longer a Landy...

***ducks for cover***

Must admit you've got balls saying that owning a TD5. Worlds biggest 5cyl hand grenade:D.

Justin

[Hendrik]

Justin, I would have a td5 over an Izuzu any day of the week, I'm don't think they are a bad engine, every engine has their pro's and cons. I just like having all my teeth in my mouth, and not shaken loose to the point of falling out :wasntme:

[DRanged]

Justin, I would have a td5 over an Izuzu any day of the week, I'm don't think they are a bad engine, every engine has their pro's and cons. I just like having all my teeth in my mouth, and not shaken loose to the point of falling out :wasntme:

Yep you got me there, no chance of getting your teeth shakin out with a TD5. You actually need an engine that can spend most of its life running to do that:D:D.

Justin

[dungarover]

Coming from a diesel hater like me, I would rather a simple mechanically injected diesel than a fancy, refined, costly to repair electonically injected one. The main reason you choose a diesel is that it's simple IMO.

The Td in td5 should spell out 'ticking detonator' :eek:

Trav

[CheekyD1]

{snip}
The Td in td5 should spell out 'ticking detonator' :eek:
Trav


:D Now that made me laugh, good one Trav.

At the risk of upsetting Darth Torquit, he might point his Range Rover collection in my direction.
Which we don’t need because Cheeky has not lost a drop of green since being hit with Car-Go Seal-Up.

So at the risk of Cheeky's Coolant, :( here goes.
I would flick anything Jap from the Rover. That includes the Izuzu Rice Burner.

If you are going to all that trouble to rattle your teeth, go the Full Monty!

Cummings 4BTA 3.9L Turbo intercooled oiler
Backed up to a C6
Shunted through a New Process D300
Rattling down to a 35 spline 9” with Detroit No-Slip
Dana 44 with E-Locker does for the front.

Your can screw the Cummings up to over 200 BHP and find enough Torque to climb the Q1
As for the rest, good luck coming close to breaking any of it.
(200 hp from Mr Izuzu --- Him Blow Up)

Sit the body of your choice on top of the whole thing. Looks like a Rover, Has a Rover badge on the front and back, Must be a Rover. :cool:


Run for cover………V8’s are best anyway :twisted::twisted::twisted: Who Started this Thread ???

[DRanged]

Cheeky

Have extra RRC's coming over tomorrow. No brainer which way we'll park them:cool:
I'll stick with the Isuzu thanks, Great package.

On another note how is that Buick V8 going. Still leaking;)

Got to laugh though, on another thread some bloke is crapping on how Isuzu's shake everything to bits.

1-- He's never owned one
2-- He's never driven a turboed version in a coil sprung chassis, but they are experts on the subject regardless.:cool:

Cracks me up

Darth

[CheekyD1]

Cheeky

Have extra RRC's coming over tomorrow. No brainer which way we'll park them:cool:
I'll stick with the Isuzu thanks, Great package.

On another note how is that Buick V8 going. Still leaking;)

Got to laugh though, on another thread some bloke is crapping on how Isuzu's shake everything to bits.

1-- He's never owned one
2-- He's never driven a turboed version in a coil sprung chassis, but they are experts on the subject regardless.:cool:

Cracks me up

Darth
:confused: I have sent Cheeky to an undisclosed location...

I actually enjoyed the brief drive I had in your Rover, up the Tea Cup Creek, the Torque was Sensational and I loved the Turbo whistle, not quite a V8 roar, but :p
Ok I am crawling now,


Buick... Hmmm, can you fit a Jag V8 to a Rover, much more British old chap..:cool:
(Would that disqualify Cheeky from being called a Land Rover???)

As for the Buick, I have a spare on standby, but so far the Car-Go Seal-Up is holding, seems it is good Poo like Wayne said. Oil Pressure 18 PSI and falling. :o Point taken.
See full story on the Cheeky Channel
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/gclro-members-rides/78639-gazzas-cheeky-project-13.html


As for arm chair experts, Don't take life so seriously, Nobody gets out alive. :D

[DRanged]

Kathryn's 4.4 in her D3 is a great Jag motor:D

Darth

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I know that I shouldn't be in this part of the forum but this is such a bun fight of a topic I couldn't resist.

If a Landy ceases to be a Land Rover if it has a changed drive line then what is it? The Rover V8 is a Buick
The LT95 gearbox is a DavidBrown
The LT77 is a Jaguar
The LT85 is Spanish Santana
The TF727 is a US Chrysler
The ZF 4HP22 is German
The Salisbury is US Dana
The 4BD1 is Japan Isuzu
etc. etc.Do I need to say anything more?

[DRanged]

I know that I shouldn't be in this part of the forum but this is such a bun fight of a topic I couldn't resist.


If a Landy ceases to be a Land Rover if it has a changed drive line then what is it?

The Rover V8 is a Buick
The LT95 gearbox is a DavidBrown
The LT77 is a Jaguar
The LT85 is Spanish Santana
The TF727 is a US Chrysler
The ZF 4HP22 is German
The Salisbury is US Dana
The 4BD1 is Japan Isuzu
etc. etc.
Do I need to say anything more?


Yeh yeh we get the point;).
Dont forget the electrics come from the afterworld where the "Prince of darkness" rules over all.:eek:

Ok lets say after it leaves the factory and guys like us get our hands on them.

ps
I thought the LT95 had origins back to the military. Personel carriers or something like that. Probably totally incorrect though.

Justin

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Yeh yeh we get the point;).
<snip>
I thought the LT95 had origins back to the military. Personel carriers or something like that. Probably totally incorrect though.

JustinDavid Brown the tractor division not David Brown the Aston-Martin division

[rovercare]

David Brown the tractor division not David Brown the Aston-Martin division

Wow, never knew that, what tractors did they source them from? obviously not the constant 4wd, was it just the gearbox sourced? or part of the transfer case aswell?, interesting...........definately explains the feel of them:D

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Wow, never knew that, what tractors did they source them from? obviously not the constant 4wd, was it just the gearbox sourced? or part of the transfer case aswell?, interesting...........definately explains the feel of them:DDavid Brown David Brown Ltd. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Brown_Ltd.) designed the box.

[philco]

great tractors David Brown, always started and just kept going and going and going, backbone of the Dairy farming industry in NZ.

[The GMan]

I know that I shouldn't be in this part of the forum but this is such a bun fight of a topic I couldn't resist.

If a Landy ceases to be a Land Rover if it has a changed drive line then what is it?

The Rover V8 is a Buick
The LT95 gearbox is a DavidBrown
The LT77 is a Jaguar
The LT85 is Spanish Santana
The TF727 is a US Chrysler
The ZF 4HP22 is German
The Salisbury is US Dana
The 4BD1 is Japan Isuzu
etc. etc.

Do I need to say anything more?

Engine Conversions to Land Rovers I know of are Isuzu, Chevy and of all things Nissan. Australian Land-Rovers frequently have Holden (GM) 6-cyl motors installed, Ford V6 (2.8L or 3.0L) transplants are also common, as are Chevy V8s and Holden V8s (4.2L or 5.0L) transplants. Alternatively, Iveco, Perkins and Isuzu diesels, often turbo-charged, are popular replacements in European Land-Rovers and probably in Australian Land Rovers too. A reference to a Nissan engine conversions on aulro site can be found at http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/21343-nissan-diesel-engine-gearbox-lr-ebay.html

Gearbox/Transfer Case Conversions I know of are Isuzu, Chevy and Nissan. Borg Warner, Holden (GM) and Ford also used for conversions in Land Rovers and Range Rovers. In some cases transfer cases are also converted or even replaced with Toyota, Dana 18’s or Orion (US). Some additional info can be found here http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/gearboxSwap.htm. The Land Rover Gearbox History shows most original gearboxes were not Land Rover, I won’t start listing them as there seem to be many, they have been discussed in part here http://www.aulro.com/afvb/gclro-general-chat/104879-when-landy-not-landy.html and you probably know most of them better than I do. More reference material can be found here http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/gearboxes.htm.

Suspension upgrades are very common and most have done some sort of mods or aftermarket lift kits. A few are listed here http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/shocks.htm and include using Toyota and Ford parts.

Land Rovers use/used Sailsbury Axels, these are in fact (US) Dana Axles, those who don’t have them have a Dana conversion available “to put bigger axles under your Rover”. A bit of research turns up the following on the Sailsbury history/myth http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/landRoverFAQ/FAQ_salisbury.htm. There are also conversions to upgrade to Ford 9” and yes, even Toyota, http://www.rovertracks.com/tech/salisbury.html, http://www.rovertracks.com/products/driveline.html, Outerlimits at http://outerlimits4x4.com/ol3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=208530 and on the GCLRO forums at http://www.aulro.com/afvb/gclro-club-only-discussions/98024-cheekys-been-naughty.html#post1184445.

So what makes a Land Rover a Land Rover? It is clear from the above it is not Engine, Gearbox or Transfer Case as these are commonly “Converted” or “Upgraded” using parts from other vehicles.

So what are we left with, brakes, chassis and the outer panels, doors and hood/bonnets. I can’t imagine that these are the essential bits that make a Land Rover into a Land Rover.

It would appear that the saying "A Land Rover is less of a car than a state of mind." (from review of the 1964 Series Land Rover by Car and Driver magazine) may hold more true now than ever before.

With all the parts from different vehicles going in to a Land Rover, both from the factory and in aftermarket conversions, it certainly would seem so.

[harry]

The Rover V8 is a Buick ---was a buick, and has undergone many changes by land rover since
The LT95 gearbox is a DavidBrown --lt95 'lt' is 'leyland transmissions'
i can't find any reference to david brown, however i had always thought that 'fergerson fwd' was involved in the development.
The LT77 is a Jaguar --was an earlier jaguar box updated by 'leyland transmissions'
The LT85 is Spanish Santana --originally designed by land rover for santana, and supplied to lr by santana.
'lt' - leyland transmissions - 95/77/85 =distance in mm between the mainshaft and the layshaft
etc. etc.
the holden is a gm, although some poofters like to think it's a chev.
like so what, where does one stop, the headlights are magnetti marrelli
on what models?
some cars are fitted with lucas smoke, that was sorta standard for all the british makes.
how many 'sub-contractor' parts are supplied on other marques?

as said somewhere, all the parts were able to be purchased on a land rover p/n, so that makes those parts genuine lr, even if they started life in another model, the isuzu, for example.

[Slunnie]

Not positive if this has been asked on the forum previously or not... however makes for a very interesting 'discussion' around a campfire after a few of BigDog's brews :cool: Soooooo


When does a Landy
(a generic term for ALL Land Rover manufactured vehicles :p)
No longer classify as a Landy???


Is it the diffs, engine, chassis, body, badge??? Love to hear your views and reasoning's :)
I think it is when the chassis is removed, then its no longer a Land Rover. Everything else just hangs off the chassis and the chassis is what defines the vehicle according to the roads authority. Just because you put a Holden motor in it doesn't make it a Holden, if you put Nissan axles in it doesn't make it a Nissan and because you put a MD locker in it doesn't make it a Maxi-Drive. I think there is a difference between when does a Landy not classify as a Landy, and what is a purist - I think these are getting mixed up in the responses here, and I don't believe they are the same.

[clubagreenie]

"When does a Land Rover stop being a Land Rover?"

When it stop leaking oil!

[GuyG]

"When does a Land Rover stop being a Land Rover?"

When it stop leaking oil!

What if it has no fluids in it? Its still a LR but can't leak:p

[harry]

"When does a Land Rover stop being a Land Rover?"

When it stop leaking oil!

someone has to put oil back in the ground.
it was all going along nicely, this returning oil to the ground business,
until the forefathers of the 'oil return to ground project' stumbled,
they were known as the british motorcycle manufacturers, and included triumph, vellocette, bsa, norton and others.
these forward thinking manufacturers managed to produce thousands of individual machines that were able to deposit oil back onto the ground whilst running or even after standing for weeks unused, all done from a machine that was easily moved about and able to function in small places.
rover engineers recognised this in the late 40's and set about creating a replacement for the loss of the british motorcycle industry, which they rightly forecast would happen, and created a machine that would carry on the britsh tradition of oil return, thus giving the arab nations many useful years of oil production long after the wells dry up.
pip pip, off now to top up the v8, she's been sitting for a while now and needs the 'send recvcled oil to ground' system [sprog] topped off.

[reubsrover]

Well I was starting to think I'd have a few badges up for sale...my SIII has a Holden 186 in it. Agree with Slunnie and Harry, it's certainly a state of mind for me.

[dobbo]

Last year at the LROC expo I got chastised by an old bloke, whilst he was admiring my County, he discovered, much to his disgust, that my car not only had flipped Discovery rims bolted to it, but upon closer inspection it had a RRC front axle.

Where does this stop? Do we get 6 of the best for putting an after market stereo in the dash?

[clubagreenie]

I'm off to fit a new stereo...

[jbowler]

I am sure Josh is trying to see how many fights he can start with this question :D. I can just imagine the conversation on this topic after a few beers.

But really the answer is simple. NEVER. Once a Landy, always a Landy.

If people really get confused about the make of vehicle they drive the just look for the VIN plate. If you see those glorious two words "Land Rover" the sleep easy nowing you are the proud owner of a fine piece of British Engineering :angel:

I have already fitted another stereo. I am sure a 6 stack CD player in an off road vehicle sounded like a good ided to someone at Land Rover at the time. More skips than a jumping rope competition :)

[The GMan]

I am pretty sure after market stereos are OK.... It's the other kinds that are being discussed. There are many, and it seems many opinions....

[clubagreenie]

But I wanted my 6...

[Grimace]

But really the answer is simple. NEVER. Once a Landy, always a Landy.

Got it in one!
If it was sold by land rover as a land rover.... IT'S A LAND ROVER.

[harry]

The Rover V8 is a Buick ---was a buick, and has undergone many changes by land rover since
The LT95 gearbox is a DavidBrown --lt95 'lt' is 'leyland transmissions'
i can't find any reference to david brown, however i had always thought that 'fergerson fwd' was involved in the development.
The LT77 is a Jaguar --was an earlier jaguar box updated by 'leyland transmissions'
The LT85 is Spanish Santana --originally designed by land rover for santana, and supplied to lr by santana.
'lt' - leyland transmissions - 95/77/85 =distance in mm between the mainshaft and the layshaft
etc. etc.
the holden is a gm, although some poofters like to think it's a chev.
like so what, where does one stop, the headlights are magnetti marrelli
on what models?
some cars are fitted with lucas smoke, that was sorta standard for all the british makes.
how many 'sub-contractor' parts are supplied on other marques?

as said somewhere, all the parts were able to be purchased on a land rover p/n, so that makes those parts genuine lr, even if they started life in another model, the isuzu, for example.

i suppose that i should also point out that at the time land rover started using 'leyland transmissions' lt 95, lt 77, lt85,
the land rovers were actually made by leyland ....
someone else also said what's left to be a land rover, brakes- well probably girling or lockheed, windows - pilkington, radios- you name it.

but as grimace said, and i think he is right, if land rover sold it, it's a land rover.

i'm over it gagf.

[clubagreenie]

So it's not who made the parts but who assembled it.

[dungarover]

At the end of the day, who really gives a toss to be quite honest. All manufacturers outsource everything to a point so no car ever made is 100% whatever, but I agree if it was fitted to Land Rover in the factory consider it Land Rover either it be good, bad or ugly (ie- Lucas electrics as a example :eek:).

Trav

[The ho har's]

chassis....it is all about chassis;)

Mrs hh:angel:

[rick130]

The LT95 gearbox is a DavidBrown --lt95 'lt' is 'leyland transmissions'

[snip]


Doesn't mean David Brown Gears didn't have a hand or solely develop it for Leyland. (although it's the first I've heard of it)
DBG have been around for a long time.

[harry]

Doesn't mean David Brown Gears didn't have a hand or solely develop it for Leyland. (although it's the first I've heard of it)
DBG have been around for a long time.

thanks, you're quite right,
i'd like more positive info,
so off i go to find dave brown gears, but not tonight.


any one want my cold:(

[The ho har's]

any one want my cold:(


NO bugger off:o:D;)

Mrs hh:angel:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Doesn't mean David Brown Gears didn't have a hand or solely develop it for Leyland. (although it's the first I've heard of it)
DBG have been around for a long time.You only have to ask yourself, why is the LT95 so different internally to every other Land Rover gearbox? Leyland trucks used other manufacturer gearboxes (Eton and Turner) and the subsequent Range Rover gearboxes (LT77 and R380) are developments of the Jaguar gearbox (another British Leyland marque).

While the LT95 was a Leyland built box, design started while it was still Rover as an independent company.

[djam1]

The main designer of the LT95 was Frank Shaw.

This is an extract from an interview with him in 1996 from LRO Mag

"Many years later, you were also involved with the design of the original Range Rover gearbox

That was one of the mistakes that I made. I let Tommy Barton talk me into something which I should never have done. At the time when we were doing Range Rover, Tommy and Jack Pogmore were doing the lOl-inch Forward Control vehicle, and they were convinced that this vehicle was going to absolutely make the company. They convinced me. The problem was, we had two vehicles but we could only have one gearbox. We'd got the money to build one gearbox. Tommy Barton and Pogmore persuaded me to make the gearbox suitable for the FC, and it was really too big for the Range Rover. It didn't really matter very much, but unfortunately I never did get that gearchange right. It was too big, too much inertia, and with a vehicle like the Range

Rover you drive it like a car. People want to slip down into second without any trouble at all. In the Forward Control it didn't matter, but in the Range Rover it did. So the Range Rover had a reputation for reliability greater than any vehicle has ever had - they could do what they liked with it, they would never ever bust that gearbox! And it had a terrible reputation for gearchanging. I regretted that I should have told them, 'No, you've got to get money for a bigger 'box'. I should never have fallen for it. But it was just one of those things. They'd got plenty of proof... they were going to sell thousands of these things, and of course it didn't happen.

One of the things I did on the Range Rover gearbox to suit Pogmore and Tom was to make a transfer that would give you the same speed of output on the power take-off and the axle, for towing a powered trailered gun. And that caused a little bit of complication that wouldn't normally have been there.