Rust converter

[dullbird]

I was thinking I would like to treat the chassis and the axles with some rust converter before painting

The chassis isn't overly covered in surface rust but I thought the bits that are evident I could do this too.

The diff housing and the axles do have some surface rust, and was just thinking that a rust converter might get into the nooks and crannies of things

what's your thoughts?

are there any particular ones to use... I don't really need suppa doopa expensive stuff as I was only really doing it more as precautionary measures before painting, if there were areas that didn't clean up so well.


EDIT: actually could it be used on the springs as well?

[Don 130]

I've had good results using penetrol. In the case of your chassis, a coat of neat penetrol followed by oil based paint with 10% penetrol added will give good protection. I've also used the stuff to brush paint my tray, achieving a finish as good as a spray job. Just follow the instructions on the can. Don't buy more than you expect to use within about a year. Once a decent proportion has been taken from the can, the rest will start to go off over time. As it is added to the paint it increases the volumne, so consider this in your calculations. Also if using it with flat or satin finishes, it will raise the gloss level about one notch. Don.

[dullbird]

I already have a tin of chassis black for the chassis nod....

can it still be used if its not an oil based paint?

[Bunjeel]

You could consider Galmet Ironise Rust Converter and Sealer - galmet.com.au - Ironize (http://www.galmet.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=50&Itemid=122) - which I've found to be quite effective. It doesn't prevent rust on clean metal but converts any existing rust to a black chelate compound ready for painting -

[dullbird]

Thanks Bunjeel

Looks good any idea of cost?

[Distortion]

I've used a combination of Ranex Rustbuster followed by penatrol with a fair bit of success on but it does seem to need to be reapplied every year or so

I don't know how well these kind of products would work for something you want to only do once


Cheers
Rob

[dullbird]

I will be painting it afterwards.

[Landy Smurf]

thanks for bringing this up dullbird i am also wondering about this.is it worth doing the chassis before you paint or do you just use a primer

[peterg1001]

There's a fair bit in the literature which suggets that rust converter is not an overly good approach. Essentially, you're painting on phosphoric acid, which should convert some or all of the rust (ferric oxide) to ferric phosphate.

The concern is that there may be some phosphoric acid left behind, and the adhesion qualities of the ferric phosphate may be limited.

My experience is that mechanical removal of as much rust as possible gives the best results (and I accept that some areas are not sufficiently accessible), followed by a coat of red oxide primer, followed by 2 coats of enamel.

I would recommend White Knight red oxide primer and Killrust enamel, but that's a subjective opinion.

Chassis black is an inferior product, designed for short term beautification not long term protection.

You might consider hiring a 15cfm compressor (it'll need to be petrol driven) for a day (say $75), and buying a sand blaster gun from Super Cheap. They do a nice one with a built in container for about $45.

For $120 and a days work, you'll get a much better outcome than using rust converter.

Peter

[BMKal]

Lou,

As Peter has said above, traditional phosphoric acid based rust converters often leave a slimy finish which following paint applications may not adhere to effectively. I have experienced this myself on more than one occasion.

I also agree with Peter's recommendation of physical removal of most of the rust, followed by an application of red oxide primer before applying your final paint coat/s.

Recently I came across a product called Metal Fix, put out by Phoenix Paints. This is now being used pretty extensively in the mining industry around here and I have been told that it works better then anything else that they have tried. Basically, it is a rust converter and red oxide coating in one - after application it dries with exactly the same finish as red oxide, providing a well primed surface for following coats. It is claimed to be non-toxic when dry, and also to have fire retardant properties.

They recommend that you only remove major rust (flakes / bubbles etc) and leave surface rust in place, as the compound needs some rust on the metal to work effectively. You should also leave for at least 4 days before applying your paint over the top of it (I've been leaving it for a week).

The verandah uprights at the back of our house are drill steels (common building material in mining towns). Since buying this house about 20 years ago, I have tried all types of methods to get rid of the rust in these poles and paint them. Prior to using this product, the rust has always come back through the paint not long after applying it, and that has been after taking back to shiny metal with an angle grinder, using various rust converters, killrust paint - you name it, I've tried it.

Since I've used Metal Fix (I even read and followed the instructions), and painted the poles with an enamel paint after a week, the poles have finally stayed clean, the same colour as the rest of the house, with no sign of the rust returning. OK - it's only been 6 months so far, but every other method I have tried showed rust coming back through within weeks.

Anyway - I'm sold on the stuff and have since been using it on quite a few other jobs, including repairs / mods to my two trailers. I bought it at a local paint shop (proper paint shop - not Bunnings) and it costs $50 per litre. So far I've used two litres. When you first open the pot, it looks like a solid lump or red oxide coloured puty with a small amout of clear liquid on top (and it will look like this every time you leave the pot for more than a couple of days). All you have to do is stir it vigorously with a rod for a couple of minutes and it quickly goes fluid. Very easy to apply and washes out of your brush with water.

I'll try posting a link to their web-site below (I'm no expert at this).

Phoenix Paints Painting Supplies Perth, WA - Manufacturers of Quality Paints & Protective Coatings - Paint Products Perth, Australia (http://www.phoenixpaints.com.au/m_04_01.html)

Hope this helps.

[chazza]

I finished a 1 year trial last Feb. in which I tested a variety of corrosion inhibitors on samples of rusty steel left outside, including a control.

Penetrol performed best by far and still looks the same as when I applied it; the other samples have got rustier.

I won't bother using anything else on areas I can't sandblast, or use molasses on :D

Cheers Charlie

[dullbird]

There's a fair bit in the literature which suggets that rust converter is not an overly good approach. Essentially, you're painting on phosphoric acid, which should convert some or all of the rust (ferric oxide) to ferric phosphate.

The concern is that there may be some phosphoric acid left behind, and the adhesion qualities of the ferric phosphate may be limited.

My experience is that mechanical removal of as much rust as possible gives the best results (and I accept that some areas are not sufficiently accessible), followed by a coat of red oxide primer, followed by 2 coats of enamel.

I would recommend White Knight red oxide primer and Killrust enamel, but that's a subjective opinion.


Chassis black is an inferior product, designed for short term beautification not long term protection.You might consider hiring a 15cfm compressor (it'll need to be petrol driven) for a day (say $75), and buying a sand blaster gun from Super Cheap. They do a nice one with a built in container for about $45.

For $120 and a days work, you'll get a much better outcome than using rust converter.

Peter

How Ironic I was going to lash out on POR15 and other members said an unnecessary expenditure, just use chassis black.

I went out and bought a 5L tin of chassis black only now to be told its an inferior product:eek:..

[Lotz-A-Landies]

DB

If you want an excellent option you can use POR15 Rust preventative paint. PPC - POR 15® Rust Preventive Paint (http://ppcco.com.au/prevention.htm). POR15 products are expensive however there few if any other products that are better. It's one downside with the rust preventative paint is that it is not UV stabilised and the black colour will turn a charcoal grey colour over a few years if exposed to sunlight.

Diana

[peterg1001]

Sorry Diana, I'll have to disagree with you about POR-15. See Fixing the chassis (http://greenacre.biz/landrover/929_fixchassis/929_fixchassis.htm).

It's awful stuff to put on, it doesn't adhere, and nothing adheres to it.

It isn't particularly tough - the rims I painted have dings through the POR-15 from putting the tyres on, and they're rusting.

BTW - it discolors after a week in sunlight, although Rod at PPC (PPC - Restoration Specialists (http://www.ppcco.com.au/)) reckons this doesn't affect the permanence of the paint.

If you really want to try POR-15, try KBS instead - see Cleaning up the fuel tank (http://greenacre.biz/landrover/943_fueltank/943_fueltank.htm). It appears to be identical, and it's a bit cheaper.

Strongly not recommended.

Peter

[Bunjeel]

Thanks Bunjeel

Looks good any idea of cost?

Galmet Ironise costs about $50 a litre and is generally available from engineering suppliers (You won't find it at Bunnings). Personally I've had no problems with paint adhesion or rust returning but I do agree if you can eliminate the rust entirely by sandblasting before applying a good primer, that's a better option.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Sorry Diana, I'll have to disagree with you about POR-15. See Fixing the chassis (http://greenacre.biz/landrover/929_fixchassis/929_fixchassis.htm).

It's awful stuff to put on, it doesn't adhere, and nothing adheres to it.

<snip>Peter

I'll take your information on board, however your powder coated chassis is a very unusual situation and getting anything to stick to powder coating is always a problem.

Personally I would never use powdercoating on a chassis. Any large rock scraping the chassis or kicked up by the tyres, will crack the membrane and then you end up with moisture being held next to the steel of the chassis. Just look what happens to powder coated garden furniture.

Galvanising is a good durable protection, but can warp in the process and a real problem to repair if damaged.

I have also seen great quality jobs done with POR 15, although they had turned charcoal grey, a colour many people would not do a chassis.

[groucho]

The only way to get rid of rust is sand blasting or chemical dipping.
Rust converters, and i probably tried the majority of them are not that good at long term solution. If you don"t get rid of all the rust it will come back
Chassis black is just that. Nothing wrong with it. I use K&H black. Yes it will go dull after a while. So what it's a chassis.

This chassis was done over 6 years ago. Don't get washed very often.




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/05/633.jpg

[dullbird]

Cool thanks for that groucho :cool:

[geodon]

I'd like to get this done but at a minimum of $500 I wonder if it's cost effective?
If it means I can use cheaper paint then that would reduce it &, let's face it, it's a great way of springboarding your project in the right direction!

Actually, with the LR's simple ladder chassis, I can do most of it with a combo of Rupes orbital sander (with an exhaust duct to collect the dust!), plus an angle grinder with a wire brush. Then I can highllight the areas I can't do with a leftover aerosol paint can & tell the Blasters to just do those bits.

Comments?

[chazza]

Galvanising is a good durable protection, but can warp in the process and a real problem to repair if damaged.



I had my chassis hot-dipped but there was no distortion at all. I suspect chassis that have distorted may have had thinned parts from rust on them.

What sort of problems do you expect at repair time? If the chassis needs welding it is really only a case of grinding off the zinc; welding; and then treating with paint and something good such as Penetrol on the inside.

The worst disadvantage I experienced was the extra weight the zinc added to the chassis but as my S1 is no racing machine, I decided not to worry about it,

Cheers Charlie

[peterg1001]

I'd like to get this done but at a minimum of $500 I wonder if it's cost effective?


It cost me $150 to get the chassis I just sold on ebay blasted at Ultimate Strippers in Penrith. That included a coat of etch primer.

I've had a fair bit of stuff done there, so that price may be on the low side, but there's no way you should be paying more than $250 for a blast and prime.

Master Blaster at Orangeville charges $180 an hour, and with his gear (a semi-trailer mounted apparatus of amazing power) I reckon it would take a lot less than one hour. Priming not included.

That assumes you're somewhere close to Sydney . . .

Peter

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I had my chassis hot-dipped but there was no distortion at all. I suspect chassis that have distorted may have had thinned parts from rust on them.

What sort of problems do you expect at repair time?
<snip>Perentie chassis are galvanised, but they are dipped while attached to a jig!

However as you say repair is grinding off the zinc, welding and painting with something. A bit like steel farm gates, you can always see where the welding and Galmet has been applied and if it worries you, then you spend a day every couple of years walking around the farm with a wire brush and a tin of Galmet spray.

the warping is often dependant on the galvanisers, the temp of the bath and how they process. I have seen brand new gal trailers where you can see the warp across the box. It's all a quality control thing.

[UncleHo]

G'day Folks :)

Did I miss something? as I can't find any reference of Peter powder coating his chassis !, that is one process that I would certainly not recommend, as we have a *****brand dog trailer for our dogs which is severly rusted both on the outside(stonechips) and inside(claw scratches) and short of totally stripping, and sandblasting, this vehicle is virtually unrepairable :( $4K up the spout, they look lovely when new, but!!!!!!!


cheers

[peterg1001]

Did I miss something? as I can't find any reference of Peter powder coating his chassis !, that is one process that I would certainly not recommend, as we have a *****brand dog trailer for our dogs which is severly rusted both on the outside(stonechips) and inside(claw scratches)

I think you missed the link Kevin - See Fixing the chassis (http://greenacre.biz/landrover/929_fixchassis/929_fixchassis.htm).

Want to hear today's news? Completely irrelevant to the topic, but what the hell . . .

I got my starter motor back from Kevin Baker, miraculously refurbished from a 2M100 to an M40. Installed it, started up again, all was well - until I heard the rattling sound.

One of the exhaust manifold studs holding the exhaust flange had pulled out last time I pulled the exhaust off, and I had to re-tap the stud hole to a bigger size, and re-install the exhaust. As a result, the exhaust was now touching the side of the chassis, and rattling.

I figured I could re-align things by jiggling the exhaust flange, so I had a go. Well, well. Another stud pulled out of the exhaust flange. I went off and had a fit of depression for an hour or so, then had another look. It looks as if there's a hairline crack along the edge of the front stud hole in the manifold, the one that goes all the way through. Bad news. There's a possibility of helicoiling the stud holes, but given that two studs have pulled out I'm not game to rely on it. So I've ordered a new manifold from LRSeries, all I have to do now is stop work for another couple of weeks until it arrives.

I had planned to put the bulkhead on this weekend, once I was sure the engine was going perfectly - I'm not game to install anything until I'm sure the engine is fine. At least it's easy to get at now, to resolve any minor difficulties that might arise.

To fill in the time I now had available, I installed the clutch slave cylinder. It took about an hour, of which 50 minutes was installing the split pin into the gearbox side pin which holds the connecting sleeve. If you wanted to design something that was really, really hard to maintain, where would you look? Solihull, that's where.

I also had my third go at stopping the transfer box sump cover leaking. I know, it's made of special porous steel invented at Solihull to let the gears breath, and has a minor disadvantage of leaking like a sieve. If there were four bolts up each side, with the outer two close to the corners, there would be no problems. As it is, this time I've cut a gasket from 3mm neoprene cork, added a tube of silicone gasket goo, and am now waiting to see what happens.

Thanks for listening . . . it's been a bad day.

Peter

[Bunjeel]

I think you missed the link Kevin - See Fixing the chassis (http://greenacre.biz/landrover/929_fixchassis/929_fixchassis.htm).

Want to hear today's news? Completely irrelevant to the topic, but what the hell . . .

I got my starter motor back from Kevin Baker, miraculously refurbished from a 2M100 to an M40. Installed it, started up again, all was well - until I heard the rattling sound.

One of the exhaust manifold studs holding the exhaust flange had pulled out last time I pulled the exhaust off, and I had to re-tap the stud hole to a bigger size, and re-install the exhaust. As a result, the exhaust was now touching the side of the chassis, and rattling.

I figured I could re-align things by jiggling the exhaust flange, so I had a go. Well, well. Another stud pulled out of the exhaust flange. I went off and had a fit of depression for an hour or so, then had another look. It looks as if there's a hairline crack along the edge of the front stud hole in the manifold, the one that goes all the way through. Bad news. There's a possibility of helicoiling the stud holes, but given that two studs have pulled out I'm not game to rely on it. So I've ordered a new manifold from LRSeries, all I have to do now is stop work for another couple of weeks until it arrives.

I had planned to put the bulkhead on this weekend, once I was sure the engine was going perfectly - I'm not game to install anything until I'm sure the engine is fine. At least it's easy to get at now, to resolve any minor difficulties that might arise.

To fill in the time I now had available, I installed the clutch slave cylinder. It took about an hour, of which 50 minutes was installing the split pin into the gearbox side pin which holds the connecting sleeve. If you wanted to design something that was really, really hard to maintain, where would you look? Solihull, that's where.

I also had my third go at stopping the transfer box sump cover leaking. I know, it's made of special porous steel invented at Solihull to let the gears breath, and has a minor disadvantage of leaking like a sieve. If there were four bolts up each side, with the outer two close to the corners, there would be no problems. As it is, this time I've cut a gasket from 3mm neoprene cork, added a tube of silicone gasket goo, and am now waiting to see what happens.

Thanks for listening . . . it's been a bad day.

Peter


To continue the sidetrack: sympathies, mate but I'm a bit puzzled as my S2A has a 12-bolt transfer case sump plate - 4 on each side and 2 on each end (is this standard?) which looks like stamped 2-3mm mild steel and it never leaks. Last time I pulled it off I put back with slight bow in it so the corners would keep tight as the bolts are about 40mm from each corner. Also I prefer a rosin-based gasket sealer such as the Loctite Aviation range. Maybe it's a personal thing but I really dislike silicon sealers as they're usually applied in great excess and finish up sliding off the metal into the guts of the machinery - and they never work for long.

cheers

[peterg1001]

To continue the sidetrack: sympathies, mate but I'm a bit puzzled as my S2A has a 12-bolt transfer case sump plate - 4 on each side and 2 on each end (is this standard?) which looks like stamped 2-3mm mild steel and it never leaks.

Somewhere during the Series 3, the transfer box sump cover changed from part 533040 to FRC7148.

I'm guessing that was when the change ocurred. Diana, can you enlighten us?

It's also interesting to note that Rocky Mountain produce an OEM cover, which they claim is more rigid and stops the leaks.

Peter