Isuzu 4bd1T in an Italian Defender 110

[marcecooter]

Dear All,

Please let me introduce myself: I'm an Engineer and I live in Italy, I love Land Rover's, and in my little little company I have a 1998 Land Rover Defender 110 standard fitted with the well known 300Tdi engine.
I did everything to squeeze the best form this 2500 direct injection engine: front mounted intercooler, vnt turbocharger, tricked fuel pump, straight trough exhaust sytems...A the present day I'm not satisfied with it, and I'm thinking about a Isuzu 4bdt1 conversion.
But to tell you the truth even if calculation on my hand show the 4bdt1 would produce the same power and NM of the tuned 300Tdi engine, I prefere to fit a big engine in my 110 as low end torque is always better, so what do you think about this conversion ? Is it useless or is it a good idea, having the 300Tdi reached is top potential at this tage ?

Ciao Ciao :)

Marcello

My car:
25767

[Blknight.aus]

3.9l 15 psi boost stock...

noooo that'l never beat out 2.5l with 19 psi boost...

:)


do it, Ive seen a vid of a 3.9 with the nitrile crank pushing 45psi in a yank comp truck....

[grnrvrs]

Won't the turbo foul the steering box on a LHD?

[Blknight.aus]

shouldnt, but then if it does your an engineer, swing it over hang it off of the inlet manifold and plumb the gasses and oil over to it.

[big guy]

shouldnt, but then if it does your an engineer, swing it over hang it off of the inlet manifold and plumb the gasses and oil over to it.

He may be a chemical, electrical or some other engineer:o:o:o

I be honest, I am not a fan of the Isuzu but it does beat my 300tdi without even trying too hard.
My friend has both a 3.6-4BDE and a 4Bd1 and although I don't like the noise and the whole idea which by my own admission is totally unreasonable, it does pull harder than a you know what.

So go for it.
It just so happens, its for sale here in the market section also.
His 4bd1 and bellhousing etc.
Its the none turbo model though but fitting a turbo can't be too hard, even mechanics can do it.:p:p:p

[Blknight.aus]

He may be a chemical, electrical or some other engineer:o:o:o


A detail.....


fitting a turbo can't be too hard, even mechanics can do it.:p:p:p

Its easier than you think...

I know of an Officer whose done it.
:o

[Dougal]

do it, Ive seen a vid of a 3.9 with the nitrile crank pushing 45psi in a yank comp truck....

Do tell.

[DRanged]

He may be a chemical, electrical or some other engineer:o:o:o

I be honest, I am not a fan of the Isuzu but it does beat my 300tdi without even trying too hard.
My friend has both a 3.6-4BDE and a 4Bd1 and although I don't like the noise and the whole idea which by my own admission is totally unreasonable, it does pull harder than a you know what.

So go for it.
It just so happens, its for sale here in the market section also.
His 4bd1 and bellhousing etc.
Its the none turbo model though but fitting a turbo can't be too hard, even mechanics can do it.:p:p:p

yeh yeh we get it. I think every sentence you say starts with that;);).

Why keep posting here;);)

Its cool you dont like them. I dont like Disco's or tuna sandwiches but i dont bang on about it.:D

Regards justin

[Disco_owner]

yeh yeh we get it. I think every sentence you say starts with that;);).

Why keep posting here;);)

Its cool you dont like them. I dont like Disco's or tuna sandwiches but i dont bang on about it.:D

Regards justin

:o:o Justin, I was going to Buy a few cans of "Tuna" and bring them up in my "Disco" to your place in my next visit ,but now I won't.:p

[big guy]

yeh yeh we get it. I think every sentence you say starts with that;);).

Why keep posting here;);)

Its cool you dont like them. I dont like Disco's or tuna sandwiches but i dont bang on about it.:D

Regards justin

To annoy the likes of you.

I think you are wrong, rarely a sentence does actually when compared to sentences written.
Has the rattle of the motor send your mind numb?

I do so not to offend but now that you have offended me, I shall remember that.
Do you really feel there was need for it.
Did you have a bad day, did you look in the mirror and not like what you see?
Did it make you feel better or does it come naturally.
Either way, it is not really called for and please refrain from hurting my feelings.
I am very sensitive you know.:oops2:[bawl][bawl][bawl][bawl]

[County3.9]

Its easier than you think...

I know of an Officer whose done it.
:o

Did a good job too!


Do it! The turbo transforms the engine! I also have a vehicle (Discovery)with a 300Tdi, and the turbo isuzu engine is far more driveable. Simple, strong and bulletproof.

[County3.9]

To annoy the likes of you.


Why mate?

And have another read of Justin's post, he said nothing offensive towards you... just a little truth...

[marcecooter]

Dear All,

Thanks for replying first of all, I wish to go for the 4BDT1 (3900 c.c. turbocharged) as fitting a turbo to a 4BD1 is not in my opinion so simple, as the fuel pump would be "2" stage: stage 1 when the turbocharger is not boosting air, and stage 2 when the turbo build up pressure.
Anyway if someone has pictures of a 4BDT1 in his 110 they'd be very appreciated, ad I could roughly estimate if something could foul my LHD 110.
Regarding to the bell housing in the market is the same for 4BD1 and 4BDT1 ?
I'd keep my R380 but it seems that an old 4 speed gearbox from my 1982 Range Rover would be better.

More LAter

Marcello

[marcecooter]

Last but not hte least, I found a Isuzu NPR here in Italy with 4BDT1 and gearbox, that could be 6 speed.
The seller want € 800 for the whole truck, as the engine is in need of total rebuilding, is there any Isuzu spare parts company you would suggest me ?

[rick130]

Last but not hte least, I found a Isuzu NPR here in Italy with 4BDT1 and gearbox, that could be 6 speed.
The seller want € 800 for the whole truck, as the engine is in need of total rebuilding, is there any Isuzu spare parts company you would suggest me ?

The advice I've been given is to use genuine parts from Isuzu.
Adapting the 6 speed to the LT230 has been discussed on here, and Dougal has some drawings too.
hopefully he'll chime in soon.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Dear All,

Thanks for replying first of all, I wish to go for the 4BDT1 (3900 c.c. turbocharged) as fitting a turbo to a 4BD1 is not in my opinion so simple, as the fuel pump would be "2" stage: stage 1 when the turbocharger is not boosting air, and stage 2 when the turbo build up pressure.
<snip>
Regarding to the bell housing in the market is the same for 4BD1 and 4BDT1 ?
I'd keep my R380 but it seems that an old 4 speed gearbox from my 1982 Range Rover would be better.

<snip>

MarcelloMarcello

A couple of points, the Factory 4BDI-T in Australia seem to have their turbocharger out the side of the exhaust manifold (Left hand Side) right where your steering box is on a LHD Defender. So you may not he able to use the factory turbo setup, although you could use the turbo somewhere else with different plumbing. You may be able to put the turbo above the exhaust manifold or anywhere you can get the exhaust pipes and air intake pipes plumbed.

The Land Rovers factory fitted with Isuzu 4BD1 and 4BD1T all use the LT95 (Range Rover 4 speed) Lately a lot of people in Australia are using the R380 5 speed gearbox (Defender/Discovery II) modifying the R380 bellhousing.

Probably the best gearbox for a 4BD1 is an Isuzu gearbox - Dougal and others have close-coupled the 5 speed Isuzu, there are also people who have remote mounted the LT230 with an Isuzu 6 speed. Using the isuzu gearbox solves the problems of the adapter plate on the bell housing but moves it to the LT230.

[big guy]

Why mate?

And have another read of Justin's post, he said nothing offensive towards you... just a little truth...

I just can't handle the truth.:angel:

So I repeated myself, big deal.

I have other faults too. like leaving the clothes on the floor, sometimes I up-shift too late and would you believe it, I squeeze the toothpaste from the middle not the end.

Long live the 4bd1-- You really are a bearded pathetic clan of followers.

Ciao

[marcecooter]

Hi,As far as concerning the steering box of the servo boost in lhd Defenders, it seems that the turbocharger is still far from touching them.
I saw on U Tube a well done 4BDT1 conversion in a LHD Discovery II, so if I'm not totally wrong the engine could be dropped in a defender engine bay without "too much" troubles.
Regarding to the transmission I agree to keep the standard Isuzu gearbox, anyway I don't remember the gear' code number, but there's a transmission which has a big gap from 3rd to 4th, so it's not advisable for off road.
Anyway if someone is able to modifiy the R380 gearbox bellhousing, I'll keep it, as I like how it shift, and moreover I saw it a more straightforward conversion.

[abaddonxi]

Flagg and Dranged on here both have R380 gearboxes behind 4BD1s. I think they both used LT85/Santana gearbox to Isuzu 4BD1 bellhousings, which are rare.

[Dougal]

Regarding to the transmission I agree to keep the standard Isuzu gearbox, anyway I don't remember the gear' code number, but there's a transmission which has a big gap from 3rd to 4th, so it's not advisable for off road.
Anyway if someone is able to modifiy the R380 gearbox bellhousing, I'll keep it, as I like how it shift, and moreover I saw it a more straightforward conversion.[/FONT]

The earlier Isuzu boxes are MSA series, the later are MXA. Essentially interchangable.
I have an MSA-5P in the garage which has the bigger gap 3-4. It was never a problem offroad, it was only annoying on the occasional on road hill where 70km/h was basically the end of 3rd gear and 4th wasn't quite on boost. I have since sorted my fuelling and turbos out so this won't be the annoyance it was.
I'm currently running a MSA-5G. This has the higher 3rd gear which runs to about 80km/h with the 1:1 transfer. Other gear ratios are the same as the MSA-5P.

[Blknight.aus]

YouTube- Twin turbo isuzu powered diesel F100

this is the non comp truck one, I think it only gets to 50/55psi The comp truck one I cant find and the team's website is 411

[rovercare]

I just can't handle the truth.:angel:

So I repeated myself, big deal.

I have other faults too. like leaving the clothes on the floor, sometimes I up-shift too late and would you believe it, I squeeze the toothpaste from the middle not the end.

Long live the 4bd1-- You really are a bearded pathetic clan of followers.

Ciao

You should change your forum name to Mcbigguy;)

You should hang around, you come across here as a ****** sometimes, but highly entertaining:)

[big guy]

You should change your forum name to Mcbigguy;)

You should hang around, you come across here as a ****** sometimes, but highly entertaining:)

Too much Jacks???

The sugar makes you crazy you know!:D

So, you never come across as a ****** at times?

The mirror is doing you no favours.

[Dougal]

YouTube- Twin turbo isuzu powered diesel F100 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws3D62pBI0A)

this is the non comp truck one, I think it only gets to 50/55psi The comp truck one I cant find and the team's website is 411

Yeah I know that one well. Seems to be very much a rolling experiment. He's run at least three different turbo setups, planning a turbo/supercharge arrangement and is heading towards it's third rear end too.

[rovercare]

Too much Jacks???

The sugar makes you crazy you know!:D

So, you never come across as a ****** at times?

The mirror is doing you no favours.

Yep, Mcbigguy:D

Funny, we needed a replacement, thanks:)

Mirror? never look, hence the beard

[DRanged]

Flagg and Dranged on here both have R380 gearboxes behind 4BD1s. I think they both used LT85/Santana gearbox to Isuzu 4BD1 bellhousings, which are rare.

Yep sure do and with no problems. I have an LT85 to Isuzu bellhousing tucked away for a rainy day. keep looking you'll find one. Incisor had one for sale a while back.

Justin

[kaa45]

Marcello

A couple of points, the Factory 4BDI-T in Australia seem to have their turbocharger out the side of the exhaust manifold (Left hand Side) right where your steering box is on a LHD Defender. So you may not he able to use the factory turbo setup, although you could use the turbo somewhere else with different plumbing. You may be able to put the turbo above the exhaust manifold or anywhere you can get the exhaust pipes and air intake pipes plumbed.

The Land Rovers factory fitted with Isuzu 4BD1 and 4BD1T all use the LT95 (Range Rover 4 speed) Lately a lot of people in Australia are using the R380 5 speed gearbox (Defender/Discovery II) modifying the R380 bellhousing.

Probably the best gearbox for a 4BD1 is an Isuzu gearbox - Dougal and others have close-coupled the 5 speed Isuzu, there are also people who have remote mounted the LT230 with an Isuzu 6 speed. Using the isuzu gearbox solves the problems of the adapter plate on the bell housing but moves it to the LT230.

Only till 1985, then the LT85 5 speed. ;)

[big guy]

Yep, Mcbigguy:D

Funny, we needed a replacement, thanks:)

Mirror? never look, hence the beard

This is good entertainment.
You give as good as you get, Cheers.;)

[lambrover]

This is good entertainment.
You give as good as you get, Cheers.;)

this is not an attack on you, but when you post and make comments like you don't like isuzu's, what the hell are doing reading or posting in this thread, one has to question your motive for being on this thread as it seems you are trying to ensite retaliation. You basically said that all isuzu owners are bad people, wake the hell up to your self before making broad statements. What is actually happening is you are having a personality clash so don't go of the deep end.

just my thoughts mate.

[big guy]

Good thoughts indeed, wasted somewhat but good none the less.

I never actually brouse any section as such just the New Posts, saves time.

I do not want to sound like I am repeating myself but my best mate has one(Isuzu that is), 2 other friends also, I just don't like them.
Nothing personnel what soever.---Life is too short for that.

I was posting and trying to help, posting to a new member from part of the world one of my parents is from. My post was shot down by a bearded(I presume) Isuzu follower that pointed out--quite rightly so that I was repeating myself and this section is sick of it.
Once again, quite rightly so.
My intension are honourable and this is hopefully meant in jest as its really just entertaining me now.

Get off my back now.Get on with your life and don't take matters so seriously.

Get a LIFE.:eek:

[abaddonxi]

Hey folks, remember the OP is new to AULRO, hows about we keep the thread on track?

[Rangier Rover]

Do it if you can:) I have 3.5 and 3.9 V8's, A 300 Tdi, and the 4BD1T. The Turboed Isuzu is like getting off a 250cc two stroke motor cross and onto a 600 cc four stroke trial bike.:cool:
Its chalk and cheese.:) The latter 4BD1's like mine seem a lot smother and much quieter.
I'm running the LT85 and LT 230. The LT85 are not known to be very durable behind the 4BDI due to the torque impulse.:(
If you cant find a LT85 housing for the R380 you may be better off fitting the LT95 with a tapered bearing transfer idler for a wile to get you going.
There are plenty of good pics in this section of the forum of turbo set ups but if no one pipes up, I could take some rough dimensions for you to help resolve the LHD issue.

Good luck with it:)

Cheers Tony

[marcecooter]

Dear Guys,

Thanks for your informations, as far as I know at the moment if I can get a bellhousing for my R380 it would be the best option.
I have a supplier of reconditoned LR gearbox who's an expert, and it could build a almost bullet proof R380 for me.
If someone has a 4BDT1 to R380 bellohousing please come back to me, at the moment I'm looking for an engine also, that with my great disease seem to be very difficult to obtain here, as ISUZU trucks has the following engines: 4JH1, 4HE1-XS, 4HE1-TC.
As NPR's with 4BDT1 are too old, It seems that my hunt is very hard this time.
I'm scanning the web here in Italy to search for an old NPR.....Turbo's pipes are not a problem for me, as I shall produce my own exhaust manifold, but the real problem is getting the engine and the transmission, and then fitting them to my 1998 Defender, as I imagine that LR in Australia is not offering spare parts for County 110 with the 4BD1, or for the 6x6 with the 4bdt1.

Marcello

[big guy]

I have a motor, bellhausing and gearbox for you, just need the turbo.
Its in the Market section.
I better not say that I am not a fan of the old Isuzu:p

Could send it over via boat possibly.

[Rangier Rover]

I have a motor, bellhausing and gearbox for you, just need the turbo.
Its in the Market section.
I better not say that I am not a fan of the old Isuzu:p

Could send it over via boat possibly.

We need more people like you;) More parts for us:D

[big guy]

We need more people like you;) More parts for us:D

I do my best.:p

[1103.9TDI]

We need more people like you;) More parts for us:D

Typical Rangie owner, you forgot the 'at giveaway prices' part.:D

[isuzubob]

I imagine that LR in Australia is not offering spare parts for County 110 with the 4BD1, or for the 6x6 with the 4bdt1.


Almost all specific engine/gearbox parts are still available as LRAus has to keep up supply for our Army Land Rovers. The hardest part is to find a spare parts guy who knows their 3.9 Isuzu flywheel housing from a 3.9 V8 Disco one & takes the time to get what you want or knows where else to source it from. They are out there though. ;)

Rob W

[marcecooter]

This is wonderful, is a pdf parts list available at Land Rover for Isuzu 3.9 and transmission ?

Big Guy: I looked at the market in the forum, your offer is interesting but I'm lookin' for 3.9 turbocharged, would you split your offer for the bell housing and transmission ?

Ciao

Marcello

[big guy]

This is wonderful, is a pdf parts list available at Land Rover for Isuzu 3.9 and transmission ?

Big Guy: I looked at the market in the forum, your offer is interesting but I'm lookin' for 3.9 turbocharged, would you split your offer for the bell housing and transmission ?

Ciao

Marcello

Marcello

Give the guy a call, the number is listed.
Its his motor and I am selling it for him.
He has 2, the other is a 4bde which is the 3.6L and apparently higher revving and quieter.

[marcecooter]

I'm goin' to put an ad for a bellhousing in the Market as I have found a 4BD1T in Italy.

Marcello

[Dougal]

I'm goin' to put an ad for a bellhousing in the Market as I have found a 4BD1T in Italy.

Marcello

If you have your engine, then why limit yourself to an LT95/85? With off-the-shelf adapters from the US you can run several US based gearboxes in manual or auto.

[Rangier Rover]

If you have your engine, then why limit yourself to an LT95/85? With off-the-shelf adapters from the US you can run several US based gearboxes in manual or auto.

Isn't he looking at a R380/LT230?

[Dougal]

Isn't he looking at a R380/LT230?

That too.
I'm still unconvinced that a gearbox with 77mm spacing is a good idea behind one of these.

[mills rover]

Hi Marcello

Where abouts in Italy are you ?

Cheers mate

Andrew Angeloni

[marcecooter]

Hi Andrew,

I'm from Genoa, Liguria, where do U come from ?

Ciao

Marcello

[mills rover]

Hi Marcello

Im in Australia now but i come from La Spezia born there but then went to live in albenga and alassio .

I was there last year and my cousin is a fireman and he showed me all the land rovers they have . I couldn't believe how many they had .

My Email address is aangeloni1@optusnet.com.au


How you going with isuzu conversition ?

Cheers

Andrea Angeloni

[marcecooter]

Hi Andrea,

It's a wonderful news ! You were born near to my home town: Genova, Genoa in English.
I know Alassio and Albenga very well, if you'll come here next time please write me a line, I'll be happy to meet you.
Regarding to the conversion, It's very difficult to obtain a bellhousing for the R380, as I wish to keep the car as standard as possible, I also tried to look feor an Australian Land Rover shops to purchase a LT85-LT95 bellhousing, but It seems it's a very difficult task.

Ciao

Marcello

[grnrvrs]

Marcello,

I bought my lt95 bellhousing from Fred Smith about a year ago. It was expensive, but available.

Cheers,
Paul

[isuzurover]

Marcello,

I bought my lt95 bellhousing from Fred Smith about a year ago. It was expensive, but available.

Cheers,
Paul

May help to give more details:

Fred Smith Automotive in Bayswater (03 9720 4999)


Marcello, the bellhousings are not available new. You would need to track one down 2nd hand.

[marcecooter]

Hi,

Thanks for the info, has Fred an email ? I'm average in written english, but not so good on spoken, so It'd be better to write him an email for a 2nd hand bellhousing..

Marcello

[slug_burner]

Write him a letter, he does have e-mail but not sure how often he gets on it.

FRED SMITH AUTOMOTIVE PTY LTD
30 Havelock Rd.
Bayswater, 3153
Australia

[DeeJay]

May help to give more details:



Marcello, the bellhousings are not available new. You would need to track one down 2nd hand.

I rang about 7 wreckers & ended getting one off Fred about a year ago too !!.
I needed deep pockets.:eek:

[mills rover]

Ciao Marcello

Have you got a picture of the bell housing you looking for ? As ive got 1 here , i know its isuzu but not sure what gearbox its for , i remember it was for a 4 speed box and it was out of a land rover but not sure which gear box .

Marcello next time i came home ill write to you and let you know im coming its only about an hour from my parents house to yours .
Id love to see how you going with your project .

Cheers
Andrea Angeloni

[marcecooter]

Hi again after one year !

I spent 2011 to improve performance on my car, and I tried the two following set ups:

supercharger+turbocharger

http://inlinethumb29.webshots.com/46684/2889072410104532019S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2889072410104532019OfLRNd)

http://inlinethumb09.webshots.com/47752/2705001870104532019S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2705001870104532019tkSUbk)

And I did also my own variable nozzle turbocharger kit:

http://inlinethumb06.webshots.com/48965/2262678090104532019S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2262678090104532019OUHxxS)

and

http://inlinethumb48.webshots.com/46959/2093656100104532019S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2093656100104532019QPVpTU)

Non of them provide good performance in my opinion, so I'm currently delveloping a twin turbocharger kit including manifold, while I'm waiting for a good engine conversion for R380 gearbox to accept a 4BD1T lump...
I tried also a Nissan BD30T engine and I gave also good results, but I'm however aware that there's not a substitute for c.c. !

All the best

Marcello

[123rover50]

Why not put the Isuzu MSA gearbox with the Grubbs TB conversion in it.

[Dougal]

How much boost were you running with each setup (VNT and twin-charged)? Did you run out of fuel?

[marcecooter]

Hi,

I don't know Grubbs TB conversion, however if you shall send me more informations, it could be an option.
Regarding to boost, I didn't run out of fuel because the twin charger set up boosted to 1,4-1,6 bar at maximum. It was intented as a way to spool up the standard turbocharger as soon as possible, it was not a top power solution.
The VNT kit is set to give max boost (1,2) from 1800 to 2000 rpm, but you can easy see the manometer going to 1 bar when depressing the accelerator pedal while the engine is idling at 800 rpm.
I'm sure that further investigations could improve both the two systems, anyway I like 4 cylinder slow revving diesel, so 4BD1T or Nissan BD30T will be my choice, being the Nissan available in our scrapyards..

Marcello

[123rover50]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/90033-isuzu-msa-gearbox-lt230.html
The MSA 5 spd OD box was in the Isuzu NPR behind the 4BD1. Grubbs made a tricky gear change linkage to keep it the same in the Defender.

[marcecooter]

HiHiHHi,

I'll read that thread carefully, however I guess that a bold on kit to fit the 4bd1t to a Rover R380 would be interesting especially in this side of the Earth.
Techniciand in UK did a lot to mate GM 6.2 V8, NISSAN SD33T and other engines to Rover gearboxs.It could be interesting also to make a kit for commercial purposes, as not all the Landy owners like their engines, even if they're 200/300 Tdi or Td5..

[c.h.i.e.f]

just thought I would say nice photos they are always handy :) may I ask who made that exhaust manifold? And what material did they use? Also what egt's where you running with the twin setup on it? From what I can gather the sd33t nissan is nothing compared to the isuzu it is indirect (I think) it has a weaker bottom end due to less main bearings and design they will only be rated to about 14psi boost pressure because the HT15B hitachi turbo isn't to much chop compared to say garrett etc etc and if pushed hard the bores wander or warp :o as for the newer 3L nissan motors I wouldnt touch one with a 10ft pole incase it blew up :D

[marcecooter]

Hi,

I run a small company here in italy (C.M.S. Engineering 4x4 (http://www.cmsengineering4x4.it)) and I do everything from the project trough a 3d CAD software to the real thing.
I did the exhaust manifold in stainless steel Aisi 316 but it's available in 304 and Fe45 also.
EGT was under 715° C with the twincharger, while it went to 850°C with the single 300 Tdi turbocharger, the vnt kit is something different and exhaust gas temperature goes to 750°C.....
I'm working also around a twin turbocharger set up, but I'm aware that a big 4 cylinder turbochargerd diesel will be better.
I rang a guy here in italy He runs one of the biggest scrapyard for trucks, he confirmed me that the most common engines in the 3500-4500 c.c. size are made by Iveco, no 4bd1t cummin/gm/isuzu is available here, and Nissan's BD30T also are expensive and very rare...However I'm sure the bad side of the whole project is not finding the engine, but mating it to the R380..

[Nero]

Hi,

I run a small company here in italy (C.M.S. Engineering 4x4 (http://www.cmsengineering4x4.it)) .However I'm sure the bad side of the whole project is not finding the engine, but mating it to the R380..

User "the Grub" has a kit to convert an Isuzu MSA gearbox to the LT230 transfer case.

[marcecooter]

Hi Nero,

Yes I know the kit Grubb has made, but I want to keep my R380 gearbox+LT230, as you know every R380 might be converted to close ratio and strenghtened by specialist such as Ashcroft to name one.
Moreover in my opinion a bolt on kit: 4bdt1+bellhousing is much interesting than an engine+gearbox swap, which will not meet requirements of late Defender's owners with 200/300Tdi/Td5 engines and R380gearbox.

[isuzurover]

Hi Nero,

Yes I know the kit Grubb has made, but I want to keep my R380 gearbox+LT230, as you know every R380 might be converted to close ratio and strenghtened by specialist such as Ashcroft to name one.
Moreover in my opinion a bolt on kit: 4bdt1+bellhousing is much interesting than an engine+gearbox swap, which will not meet requirements of late Defender's owners with 200/300Tdi/Td5 engines and R380gearbox.

There are several people on here who have a 4BD1T+R380. I believe all of them have done the conversion by modifying an Isuzu LT85 bellhousing.

The 200Tdi will need a gearbox swap, as the LT77 is definitely not up to the task (that has been proven by a few conversions over here).

You could certainly make a conversion kit by manufacturing a replacement bellhousing.

[c.h.i.e.f]

Very nice manifold I have pieces to make one similar but out of steam tube as I thought stainless 316 with high temps (as found on a diesel) and high vibration (as found on a diesel) it would stress crack but im no boilermaker or metal engineer so could be wrong....what size turbo's are you going to run on the twin turbo setup ? Check out carcrafter22 videos on youtube his 4bd1t has alot of work done to it and worth having a watch :)

[marcecooter]

Hi,

I'll put an ad for a LT85 to 4bd1t bell housing, and I wrote to Fred Smith automotive for a 2nd hand 'housing also.
Could you please put a list of the parts needed for the conversion ?

- LT85 to 4bd1t bell housing
- clutch plate (code number ?)
- mainshaft ??
- clutch fork
- different starter ??

Regardin' to the twin turbocharger set up we tried fast spooling mitsubishi turbos, and a pair of KKK...

[isuzurover]

Hi,

I'll put an ad for a LT85 to 4bd1t bell housing, and I wrote to Fred Smith automotive for a 2nd hand 'housing also.
Could you please put a list of the parts needed for the conversion ?

- LT85 to 4bd1t bell housing
- clutch plate (code number ?)
- mainshaft ??
- clutch fork
- different starter ??



It depends what you are starting with. The engines fitted to Land Rovers in Australia had a different flywheel and engine bell/flywheel housing.

However if you start with a truck engine the LT85 bellhousing won't bolt up (I forgot you will only have truck engines over there). If you want to use the LT85 bellhousing you will need the matching engine housing and flywheel.

Even for the truck/industrial engines there are several different options.

The landrover setup just uses a standard landrover clutch.

Most of the different options and part numbers are on here if you do a search - start with the part numbers reference in the sticky above.

[marcecooter]

This seems to be a difficult task:

We have NPR truck engines here only afaik, which 4bd1 and 4bd1t type Land Rover fitted in Australia ?
I don't understand where to start from as I believed that LR made a LT85 bellhousing for 4bd1 (4bd1t) truck engines, if I understand well they made an engine housing+flywheel+bellhousing to suit LT85 and LT95 gearboxes...what a confusion:(

[Lotz-A-Landies]

This seems to be a difficult task:

We have NPR truck engines here only afaik, which 4bd1 and 4bd1t type Land Rover fitted in Australia ?
I don't understand where to start from as I believed that LR made a LT85 bellhousing for 4bd1 (4bd1t) truck engines, if I understand well they made an engine housing+flywheel+bellhousing to suit LT85 and LT95 gearboxes...what a confusion:(That is why it is easier to use the Isuzu NPR truck engine, flywheel, bellhousing and MSA gearbox then get Grubbs adapter and mate that to your LT230 (even better if you can get the 1.003:1 transfer ratio). The MSA is designed to sit behind the 4BD1 and has the bearings to suit. An R380 is the best of a bad lot of Land Rover gearboxes.

[marcecooter]

thanks, the matter is very clear now...:) thanks.

[c.h.i.e.f]

exactly what lotz-A-landies said! I wouldn't play around with a landrover gearbox especially since now your looking for more power...my lt85 is on its way out but that's with 400k and no rebuild :o im going to go straight for a 6speed isuzu box only trouble I've heard about the isuzu box is dougal having some problem with his but not sure what happened with that??? Does anyone know if isuzu ever made a 7speed gearbox ? Why I ask is usually the msa5g box has numbers on it that will relate to it being a 5speed but I was looking at this isuzu box that was what looked to be an old 6bd1 and the box had a number that consisted of 7 then other letters from memory.... Oh how I wish a 6bd1 would fit in a 110 :(

[DRanged]

yep with the conversion kits around the Isuzu box seems the way to go, although I still laugh at people that bag the R380 conversion when most have never actually had one.:D Ours is still going strong after building a box from s/h bits over 8 years ago. Its simple dont drive it like a drift car:cool:

Justin

[marcecooter]

I just wrote an email to 4bdt swaps web site, I guess that someone in the US has already find the way to fit a 4bd1t in the newer Defenders (NAS Defender has R380+3.9 i V8 engines).

[Lotz-A-Landies]

yep with the conversion kits around the Isuzu box seems the way to go, although I still laugh at people that bag the R380 conversion when most have never actually had one.:D Ours is still going strong after building a box from s/h bits over 8 years ago. Its simple dont drive it like a drift car:cool:

JustinJustin

It's good that you have had no problem with your R380 and there are also people who have had no problems with their 4BD1/LT85. However if I were sitting in Italy where Land Rover Isuzu components are non-existent I'd be spending my Euro on converting an Isuzu box to fit the LT230 transfer rather than being frustrated not finding the bits needed to fit my R380.

Diana

BTW I do have an R380!

[marcecooter]

Yes, Grubb's idea will be fine, however I'm also looking for an Iveco 4000 c.c. turbodiesel 4 cylinder engine number 8040.25 which has been widely fitted in italian's truck, it could be similar in size and power/torque of mighty 4bd1t with aftermarket pieces availabe at a good price.......

[c.h.i.e.f]

Having said that dranged I do find the R380 a nicer box than the 6speed in my puma and a mate of mine just had to get a new R380 due to the thing flying to bits but he was happy it had done 400k running twice the standard 300tdi power levels. Also saying this I liked my lt77 it was a nice box and had no problems at all :o

[Bush65]

This seems to be a difficult task:

We have NPR truck engines here only afaik, which 4bd1 and 4bd1t type Land Rover fitted in Australia ?
I don't understand where to start from as I believed that LR made a LT85 bellhousing for 4bd1 (4bd1t) truck engines, if I understand well they made an engine housing+flywheel+bellhousing to suit LT85 and LT95 gearboxes...what a confusion:(
Land Rover in Aus, did not use the truck engine initially and made some changes. The flywheel housing used by Land Rover is different to the truck engine and the bolt pattern for the bellhousing is unique. So the bellousings for LT95 and LT85 are special (for the Land Rover 4BD1 flywheel housing) and only the LT85 bellhousing is suitable for modification to the R380. Both the LT85 to Land Rover Isuzu 4BD1 bellhousing and the mating Isuzu 4BD1 flywheel housing are rare.

No way is a modified R380 going to be as strong as the Isuzu MXA truck gearbox - 100mm vs 77mm gear centres, wider gears, much larger bearings and syncros. The heavy duty (not light duty) LT85 gearbox that was used behind the Isuzu will give problems if not modified, and the much stronger LT95 needs taper roller bearings fitted to the transfer case - the torque from a 4BD1 or 4BD1T creates too much side load for the standard thrust bearings and spits them out.

[Bush65]

Yes, Grubb's idea will be fine, however I'm also looking for an Iveco 4000 c.c. turbodiesel 4 cylinder engine number 8040.25 which has been widely fitted in italian's truck, it could be similar in size and power/torque of mighty 4bd1t with aftermarket pieces availabe at a good price.......
Sorry I don't know anything about that Iveco. I can understand the advantage of local (to you) availability.

The 4BD1T, especially 1989 or later is a very good engine with excellent strength and durability - they are stronger and will rev higher than the similar displacement Cummins 4BT. With a better turbo, simple injection pump adjustments, and 110 lbs valve springs they can hold up and give close to 500 HP with nearly 50 psi boost pressure, and rev close to 5000 per min.

The torque will be much more (600+ Nm can be produced easily) than the torque rating of the R380 gearbox (380 Nm).

[c.h.i.e.f]

Love the info bush65 :) since you mentioned pump adjustments I was talking to a diesel service in tazie and the fella said they do a governor torque cam grind to give a different fuel delivery what's your knowledge on this?

[marcecooter]

I read a lot over the web regarding to 4BD1T I'm sure it's the engine that had to be fitted standard from the '80's to 2011, but as usual British had to choose other engine mainly due to commercial agreement.
As you might agree such engine in a coil sprung Land Rover chassis is what would have defeated Toyota Land Cruiser all over the world, but unfortunately LR fitted small diesels which could be ok in Europe but not all over the world.
However expedition vehicles from Italy to North Africa/ASIA have V8 gasoline and not 2500 td, even if vnt turbochargers and exotic set up produce big NM and HP.
Coming back to IVECO, this engine born in the '60's and it was turbocharger during the eighties, it has 110-120 hp at 2700 rpm, and torque is 314 Nm at 1600 rpm.
Please have a look at the following picture:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/724.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2118942070104532019uNudNA)

[isuzurover]

I read a lot over the web regarding to 4BD1T I'm sure it's the engine that had to be fitted standard from the '80's to 2011, but as usual British had to choose other engine mainly due to commercial agreement.
As you might agree such engine in a coil sprung Land Rover chassis is what would have defeated Toyota Land Cruiser all over the world, but unfortunately LR fitted small diesels which could be ok in Europe but not all over the world.
However expedition vehicles from Italy to North Africa/ASIA have V8 gasoline and not 2500 td, even if vnt turbochargers and exotic set up produce big NM and HP.
Coming back to IVECO, this engine born in the '60's and it was turbocharger during the eighties, it has 110-120 hp at 2700 rpm, and torque is 314 Nm at 1600 rpm.
Please have a look at the following picture:

http://inlinethumb18.webshots.com/8017/2118942070104532019S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2118942070104532019uNudNA)

I take it the engine is indirect injection?

What is the redline? (Max rpm).

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I thought a lot of IVECO diesel engines are actually FIAT design/build. I know my friend just had his IVECO Eurocargo engine fail, just out of warranty because one of the big-end bolts came off. $Au50,000.00 later...

The truck is used 6 days a week does big distances all over NSW, SEQ and Vic but carries volume with very little weight. Such that he hasn't yet worn out a set of rear tyres.

[c.h.i.e.f]

looks like it might be indirect as isuzurover was suspecting.... it looks pretty small it might just be the picture though and its completely different to a 4bd1 as you would probably already of guessed :angel: what size turbo is on it?

[justinc]

Good thoughts indeed, wasted somewhat but good none the less.

I never actually brouse any section as such just the New Posts, saves time.

I do not want to sound like I am repeating myself but my best mate has one(Isuzu that is), 2 other friends also, I just don't like them.
Nothing personnel what soever.---Life is too short for that.

I was posting and trying to help, posting to a new member from part of the world one of my parents is from. My post was shot down by a bearded(I presume) Isuzu follower that pointed out--quite rightly so that I was repeating myself and this section is sick of it.
Once again, quite rightly so.
My intension are honourable and this is hopefully meant in jest as its really just entertaining me now.

Get off my back now.Get on with your life and don't take matters so seriously.

Get a LIFE.:eek:


:D:D:D:D:D

I have an Isuzu County AND a beard, and sometimes I make horrid comments in the FREELANDER section...:o Just for larfs:p

Fair suck of the sav, Freelanders really ARE an abhorrence...

AND the R380 is a toy gearbox. :O Big boys use an LT 95, (short throw shifter of course!)

See, lots of smilies as I am not serious at all....:eek:


JC

[marcecooter]

turbocharger size is TA03, and to tell you the truth I don't know more about it, I'll get back soon with size/weight.

[SheldonA]

exactly what lotz-A-landies said! I wouldn't play around with a landrover gearbox especially since now your looking for more power...my lt85 is on its way out but that's with 400k and no rebuild :o im going to go straight for a 6speed isuzu box only trouble I've heard about the isuzu box is dougal having some problem with his but not sure what happened with that??? Does anyone know if isuzu ever made a 7speed gearbox ? Why I ask is usually the msa5g box has numbers on it that will relate to it being a 5speed but I was looking at this isuzu box that was what looked to be an old 6bd1 and the box had a number that consisted of 7 then other letters from memory.... Oh how I wish a 6bd1 would fit in a 110 :(

I took a quick look at a 6 speed found behind the 6BD1 a few weeks ago and it had a 7 on it (plus two other letters and can't remember what they were) It was actaully a little shorter than the MSA5G (from memory about 15mm, but it was a rough measure). It bulged out the LT230 front output side, but from rough measurements may just clear. The 6BD1 flywheel housing/bellhousings are a larger diameter than the MSA5G/4BD1. Haven't looked at where the starter motor is on these flywheel housings - as it may push the starter motor into the chassis being a larger diameter. It was a seriuosly heavy box. The top seemsed very wide where all the gear linkages go, so not sure how it would go fitting under the transmission tunnel. Haven't got into looking further into it yet as I am currently in Asia for a bit.

It seems most of the newer Isuzu boxes have starter motors faceing to the rear causeing firewall issues.

I only looked at this as a bloke wanted to put a 6BB1 and 6 speed into a series 1 :o (you don't want to know what he was running before the 6 speed.....) My personal opinion is that a 5 speed with a wide spread and strength of the MSA's behind a 4BD1 is more than adequate. If you turbo it correctly you will have a wide usable torque curve, with wide usable gear ratios, that will hold gears with ease.

[Nero]

Silly question but my understanding of the 4BD1 is its also available as an industrial motor (gen sets compressors etc) in fact the Jaguar Rover Australia 4BD1 as fitted tot he Pernties and the civilian rovers actually has more in common with the industrial motor than the actual truck motor? So for the cost of an Injection pump with the mechanical advance for varying rpm this may open up a lot more options to out visiting friend?

The IVECO's are relatively unknown here the 4BD1 is the Moto Guzzi Vtwin of rover motors. It not nesscarily the best or the fastest but it does what it says on the the box is simple and will do it for a long time.

[marcecooter]

However it seems that Iveco is made for heavier truck than 4bd1t, as 8040.25 revs to 2600/2700 rpm only and it develops max torque at 1600-1700 rpm only...
I guess that 9.00R16 or 35" tyres would be needed to reach standard highway speed...

[isuzurover]

However it seems that Iveco is made for heavier truck than 4bd1t, as 8040.25 revs to 2600/2700 rpm only and it develops max torque at 1600-1700 rpm only...
I guess that 9.00R16 or 35" tyres would be needed to reach standard highway speed...

Max torque that low is fine. There are people who have made the 4bd1t rev higher by balancing the motor and tuning correctly.

However if it came out in the 60s then it will be indirect injection (unless updated in the 80's or 90's). IDI engines are significantly less efficient than DI engines like the 4BD1T - plus they are harder to start in cold weather.

[Bush65]

Love the info bush65 :) since you mentioned pump adjustments I was talking to a diesel service in tazie and the fella said they do a governor torque cam grind to give a different fuel delivery what's your knowledge on this?
I have had my torque cam profile modified, to reduce fuel delivery rate at low speed, because my pump doesn't have a boost compensator.

If you look at the stock 4BD1T torque curve and the fuel rate for stock injection pump calibration, you can see the correspondence. I believe this is a function of the profile of the torque cam.

From memory (it is a while since I looked and the manual isn't at hand just now) the calibration info in the manual lists different #number torque cams for the 4BD1 and 4BD1T. They may also be different torque cams between the changes that occurred about 1988 - my IP (1989 4BD1T) is a different ID number than listed for the earlier engines. I would expect the pumps with boost compensators to have a different torque cam for 4BD1T without a boost compensator.

I don't know if the IP for the 4BD1 has smaller elements than the 4BD1T's - because no one with a 4BD1 has posted there pump numbers. My IP has 9.5mm elements, while Dougal has stated his IP with boost compensator has 10mm elements.

[Bush65]

I took a quick look at a 6 speed found behind the 6BD1 a few weeks ago and it had a 7 on it (plus two other letters and can't remember what they were) It was actaully a little shorter than the MSA5G (from memory about 15mm, but it was a rough measure). It bulged out the LT230 front output side, but from rough measurements may just clear. The 6BD1 flywheel housing/bellhousings are a larger diameter than the MSA5G/4BD1. Haven't looked at where the starter motor is on these flywheel housings - as it may push the starter motor into the chassis being a larger diameter. It was a seriuosly heavy box. The top seemsed very wide where all the gear linkages go, so not sure how it would go fitting under the transmission tunnel. Haven't got into looking further into it yet as I am currently in Asia for a bit.

It seems most of the newer Isuzu boxes have starter motors faceing to the rear causeing firewall issues.

I only looked at this as a bloke wanted to put a 6BB1 and 6 speed into a series 1 :o (you don't want to know what he was running before the 6 speed.....) My personal opinion is that a 5 speed with a wide spread and strength of the MSA's behind a 4BD1 is more than adequate. If you turbo it correctly you will have a wide usable torque curve, with wide usable gear ratios, that will hold gears with ease.
I couldn't close couple an LT230 to my MXA gearbox because the front extension housing wouldn't clear the side of the gearbox case. The MXA has larger gear centres compared to MSA.

I also looked at close coupling an LT95 transfer case because they have a short front extension, but rejected it because the spline in the input gear was too far back - I was planing to machine the splines to suit my gearbox.

[Bush65]

However it seems that Iveco is made for heavier truck than 4bd1t, as 8040.25 revs to 2600/2700 rpm only and it develops max torque at 1600-1700 rpm only...
I guess that 9.00R16 or 35" tyres would be needed to reach standard highway speed...
The 4BD1T is used in 12 tonne GVM trucks and max power at 3000 rpm.

They will readily rev over 3500, but for peace most wouldn't run continuously at those rpm. With a valve spring upgrade they can go to 5000 rpm.

[isuzurover]

I don't know if the IP for the 4BD1 has smaller elements than the 4BD1T's - because no one with a 4BD1 has posted there pump numbers. My IP has 9.5mm elements, while Dougal has stated his IP with boost compensator has 10mm elements.


I am sure someone posted this on here - 8.5 mm I recall... I will try and dig it out.

[c.h.i.e.f]

Thanks for the info Grubb I also noticed that the box was quite chunky and short I wonder if it would be worth trying to mate it to the isuzu or would it be a waste of time :angel:
Bush65 thanks for the info I will keep this in mind I will find out what size plungers mine has and let everyone know...im pretty sure it has 9.5mm but ill try and find out for sure.
Are you going to be changing your governor settings and uping the max rpm at all ?

[marcecooter]

isuzu rover: Max torque that low is fine. There are people who have made the 4bd1t rev higher by balancing the motor and tuning correctly.

However if it came out in the 60s then it will be indirect injection (unless updated in the 80's or 90's). IDI engines are significantly less efficient than DI engines like the 4BD1T - plus they are harder to start in cold weather.


Yes I agree with you, I'm not sure iveco's engine is indirect injection, it could be modified during the years from Indirect to direct injectionl.....FIAT/IVECO are so "smart" that they often put on the market "new" engines made 20-25 years before which are simply modified/adapted to new rules...
For example the put on the market a 1.9 td direct injection in 1990, and they stopped production in 1992.
From 1998 to 2002 they produced this engine again, everything was the same apart for the vnt turbocharger....;)

[marcecooter]

last minute update:

When iveco was 8040 I mean 4 cilinders 4000 c.c. was indirect injection with inline pump, wen it received the turbocharger and the name became 8040.25 it was fitted with a direct injection with bosh VE pump..

last second update

I swapped the compressor side impeller for a bigger one (different design) with another compressor housing stile and torque improved a lot...
I'm sure if I'd be able to find a way to have a more responsive engine while depressing the accelerator pedal, I'd think less about an engine swap...

Why 13BT are so good and ready when you push the accelerator ?? In line pump ??

Mumbe mumble

[DRanged]

:D:D:D:D:D

I have an Isuzu County AND a beard, and sometimes I make horrid comments in the FREELANDER section...:o Just for larfs:p

Fair suck of the sav, Freelanders really ARE an abhorrence...

AND the R380 is a toy gearbox. :O Big boys use an LT 95, (short throw shifter of course!)

See, lots of smilies as I am not serious at all....:eek:


JC

Totally agree JC and if and when it does die I would probably go the Isuzu box path. When we first put the R380 behind the Isuzu we had a bet it would last about 18mnths. That was in 2003 and if anything 5th gear has now stopped whining:eek:

JL

[Bush65]

...

Bush65 thanks for the info I will keep this in mind I will find out what size plungers mine has and let everyone know...im pretty sure it has 9.5mm but ill try and find out for sure.
Are you going to be changing your governor settings and uping the max rpm at all ?
Governor has been calibrated for approx 175 cc/1000 strokes, then max load screw backed off a bit. Pump speed increased to 2200 rpm (or 4400 engine rpm).

Edit: stock fuel rate for max load (121 HP) is 70 cc/1000 stroke

[Bush65]

These pics show my MXA, 6 speed gearbox alongside my old R380 (from disco).

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/631.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/632.jpg

[marcecooter]

You have two possibilities:

1) Isuzu Engineers left inside the gearbox a lot of space for oil :)

2) Isuzu Engineers put bigger gears inside the gearbox :p

I found a guy who wish to trow away another beautiful engine from the pre-Euro era, it's an iVECO 8060.05 6 cylinder not turbocharger, 5861 c.c., 139 hp at 3000 rpm, max torque 388 nm at 1600 rpm, 5 speed iveco gearbox is included....:cool:

[Dougal]

only trouble I've heard about the isuzu box is dougal having some problem with his but not sure what happened with that???

Mine was sold as having done 240,000km in a dump truck. May have done more than that. I've got a noisey 5th gear which I need to look at.

Otherwise bulletproof boxes.

[Nero]

Will the 6 fit in the 110? Other suggestion is in South Africa early 110's were fitted with a four cylinder Perkins diesel might be easier to find than the Isuzu.

[Bush65]

You have two possibilities:

1) Isuzu Engineers left inside the gearbox a lot of space for oil :)

2) Isuzu Engineers put bigger gears inside the gearbox :p

I found a guy who wish to trow away another beautiful engine from the pre-Euro era, it's an iVECO 8060.05 6 cylinder not turbocharger, 5861 c.c., 139 hp at 3000 rpm, max torque 388 nm at 1600 rpm, 5 speed iveco gearbox is included....:cool:
My particular MXA is an early 6 speed, which had the 6th gear added to a 5 speed box (6th in the extension housing). So compare the size of the MXA main case to the R380 which has 1st to 4th in the main case, with 5th and rev in the extension housing.

[marcecooter]

Dear All,

Just a short note to let you know that I didn't succeeded in finding the 4bd1t or the Iveco 4000 Td lump I was looking for.
Isuzu engine is a rare pearl here, while Iveco 4000 Td is something that you risk to pay 1500 euro even if it is good only for the wrecker.
So I have decided to go for a more common route with Perkins 4236 Td engine...

With my best regards

Marcello

[uninformed]

Marcecooter, keep us updated with what you do. And dont forget to add photos :)

Ciao,
Sergio

[marcecooter]

Hi there,

While we're still searching for these two engines, we found also another good 4 cylinder direct injection turbodiesel It's Merceds OM364A and OM364LA engines which has similar specifications to the others.
There's one point that I clearly don't understand: it seems that 300Tdi and 200Tdi owners loves these 2 engines a lot, I have a vnt 300Tdi in my Landy but I can't ever compare it to a 4000 c.c. Tdi !
Why 200/300 Tdi enthusiasts love them so much ??

[marcecooter]

We're lookin' for Mazda SL35Ti also....;)

[rick130]

[snip]
There's one point that I clearly don't understand: it seems that 300Tdi and 200Tdi owners loves these 2 engines a lot, I have a vnt 300Tdi in my Landy but I can't ever compare it to a 4000 c.c. Tdi !
Why 200/300 Tdi enthusiasts love them so much ??

Blinded by their passion for all things Land Rover ;)

[marcecooter]

Yes, that's true....:(

[Bush65]

x 3

[isuzurover]

x 3

x4 :D

We nicknamed our 300Tdi "slug" - because that is what it feels like after getting out of the 4BD1T.

[steveG]

Hi there,
<snip>
There's one point that I clearly don't understand: it seems that 300Tdi and 200Tdi owners loves these 2 engines a lot, I have a vnt 300Tdi in my Landy but I can't ever compare it to a 4000 c.c. Tdi !
Why 200/300 Tdi enthusiasts love them so much ??

In a lightly loaded vehicle, for general driving (which is the bulk of what most people do), the 300tdi is a great engine. Simple, reliable, economical etc.

Fully loaded or towing, the 300tdi is definitely a much lesser engine than a turbo'd 4bd1.
As a friend of mine says, you cant appreciate them from a 5 min drive in someone else's. Thats usually about all we allow a non-owner to have ;)

Steve

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Did you ever consider the 3.0 litre V6 DMAX Isuzu engine? They were also used in the Saab 9.5. you should be able to find them easily in Europe. They pump out 125Kw, 25 better than the 4BD1-T

[uninformed]

the reality is, that people are very rarely going to bad mouth something they have bought themselves, as this would seem a contridiction in judgement.......being that the defender here has only ever come out with one engine option (depending on the year either: 200tdi, 300tdi, TD5 or puma), and it being beyond most peoples ability (either one or a combination of, Time, money, skill) to do a successful engine swap.....

for me an engine swap has to have 100% reliablity (equal to the OEM) and no niggling problems day to day.....an engine and gearbox relation is very important and many come unstuck at this point.

I chose the 2.8tgv, as it was ment to be bolt in, used many existing components and would be very easy with regards to legal side of things. In hindsite, If i were to do it again I would go for the Isuzu with a Isuzu gearbox..BUT, I would have to be able to source an engine/gearbox as quickly and as good as I did, and have the install done in the same time frame as I did, owing to the fact I only have 1 vehicle and I need it for work.....Not to many people plan ahead for a total engine failure.

IMO the 300tdi is an underpowerd under engineered absolute just scraping by type of engine give the type of vehicle it is going into....followed by a close 2nd with the R380 (its only saving grace the fact it has an internal gear pump)

and once again LR have fallen further behind the curve with another under sized, under powered engine but thats a moot point as the defender has been going backwards since release....

[Lotz-A-Landies]

the reality is,...
... and once again LR have fallen further behind the curve with another under sized, under powered engine but thats a moot point as the defender has been going backwards since release....It's all very well for us to gripe about pathetically small engines in Land Rover Defender, however Land Rover have to build a product based in the regulations of the EU.

Until Land Rover start building vehicles outside the EU, our hope for an efficient engine of a size that will cope with the distances and loads, (both carried in and towed) we have in Australia and dare I say both Africa and most of Asia, we will never get a suitably sized engine option.

The fact that a lot of us are retrofitting Isuzu engines, is because in Australia the 4BD1 was the only diesel engine option available in the original Aussie spec 110. In short the 4BD1 is an OEM fitting.

Diana

[isuzurover]

It's all very well for us to gripe about pathetically small engines in Land Rover Defender, however Land Rover have to build a product based in the regulations of the EU.

Sorry but that is a load of rot. The Iveco massif/Santana PS110(now no more unfortunately), G-wagen, Touareg and (current)RR/Disco4 are all made in the EU, yet they have decent size/output engines.

Btw - just as LR offered the Disco 1 with the 2.0 mpi engine in some countries, they could have manufactured a larger capacity defender variant.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

O.K Lets look at the situation.

The EU Commission rules require manufacturers to reduce CO2 emissions to an average of 130g/Km by 2012.

If you are Mercedes you can sell a few McLaren SLR's with CO2 specs of 236g/Km and a few G-Wagens by selling a lot of A Class Mercedes that may come in under the 130g/Km (but don't).

The same with IVECO, they can sell a lot of FIAT 500s against their IVECO Mastiffs.

However if you are Jaguar Land Rover, you don't have an A Class that you can sell a lot of to get your whole of range average down, so you have to reduce the size of your punyPuma powered Defender from 2.4 litre to 2.2 litre. Maybe that's what the 2WD Evoque is all about!

[isuzurover]

O.K Lets look at the situation.

The EU Commission rules require manufacturers to reduce CO2 emissions to an average of 130g/Km by 2012.

If you are Mercedes you can sell a few McLaren SLR's with CO2 specs of 236g/Km and a few G-Wagens by selling a lot of A Class Mercedes that may come in under the 130g/Km (but don't).

The same with IVECO, they can sell a lot of FIAT 500s against their IVECO Mastiffs.

However if you are Jaguar Land Rover, you don't have an A Class that you can sell a lot of to get your whole of range average down, so you have to reduce the size of your punyPuma powered Defender from 2.4 litre to 2.2 litre. Maybe that's what the 2WD Evoque is all about!

Your information is in error:

THE European parliament this week voted to adopt a 175g/km carbon dioxide emissions target by 2017 for light commercial vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes gross vehicle mass.

The target has a phase-in period starting from 2014, with 70 per cent, 75 per cent and 80 per cent of each manufacturer’s fleet complying in 2014-16 respectively, and 100 per cent from 2017 onwards.

Manufacturers registering fewer than 22,000 new vehicles a year can apply for an exemption.

A long-term target of 147g/km has also been set, although this is subject to review in 2013.

The commercial vehicle target is less stringent than the 130g/km limit being phased in for passenger cars in Europe by 2012

NOTE - there is no mandatory/binding CO2 limit at present, just a "voluntary" target. The first binding limit will be the passenger vehicle limit for 2012.

Most defenders will fit into the commercial vehicle limit, which hasn't yet come into being.

However your original comment was in response to people griping about the Tdi. There were no such regulations around when the Tdi came into effect.

In short, there is no reason LR could not produce a defender with say a 3.0L TD fopr non-eu countries, both now or in the past.

[marcecooter]

Hi,

I guess It's a commercial\politic matter only, choosing an engine or another It's just picking up what the Company have available in that moment at a reasonable cost.
If Defenders would have been fitted with an Iveco 3.0 16V (176 Hp) engine, + 6 speed gearbox from GM/Iveco fitted standard in the latter Daily Euro 4, we'd never spoke about engine swap.

However in my opinion bigger 4 cylinder slow revving engines are what you need in a Defender, if a Defender\Range Rover'd have been fitted as standard with a Toyota 13BT\Mazda slt35i\Isuzu4bd1T, none of the existing Toyota\Nissan off roader were still on the market..

I often goes off road with my 110, it has great suspension articulation:

http://inlinethumb64.webshots.com/46911/2143246540104532019S425x425Q85.jpg

and

http://inlinethumb04.webshots.com/49667/2722625970104532019S425x425Q85.jpg

and

http://inlinethumb02.webshots.com/46913/2812528190104532019S425x425Q85.jpg

but I need low end torque....a V8 3.9I would be ok, but 1 liter of gasoline is around € 1,60 in these days :(

So big diesel is the way to go !

[Dougal]

Did you ever consider the 3.0 litre V6 DMAX Isuzu engine? They were also used in the Saab 9.5. you should be able to find them easily in Europe. They pump out 125Kw, 25 better than the 4BD1-T

The Isuzu Dmax ute engine is a 3 litre 4JJ1 engine. It is commonrail vnt 4 cylinder. Same displacement as the Isuzu V6 engine used in some saab and opel cars but no other relation that I know of.

It's childs play to get more than 125kw from a 4BD1T.

[marcecooter]

I wish to fit a 4 cylinder no electronics at all, if however V6 Dmax could me simpler to find in Europe, they'll ask something around 2K-3K euros to start....

I like long stroke 4 cylinder diesels, I don't like V6-V8 diesels......I don't like electronics at all :p

[Dougal]

The perkins is probably a good place to start.

[marcecooter]

I found a guy in UK who has a Mazda SL35 conversion, this engine look very similar to 4bd1t, and the conversion is pretty plug and play as he wrote....

As far as concerning big diesels it seems that a breakyard over here as a few Cummins 6bda from Daf truck also....:cool:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The Isuzu Dmax ute engine is a 3 litre 4JJ1 engine. It is commonrail vnt 4 cylinder. Same displacement as the Isuzu V6 engine used in some saab and opel cars but no other relation that I know of.

It's childs play to get more than 125kw from a 4BD1T.According to Wikipedia the Saab 9.5 has an Isuzu DMax. Remember the relationship between GM and Isuzu and the fact that GM own Saab.

List of Isuzu engines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Dougal]

According to Wikipedia the Saab 9.5 has an Isuzu DMax. Remember the relationship between GM and Isuzu and the fact that GM own Saab.

Yes the saabs were fitted with Isuzu V6 diesels.
They are a completely different engine family to the 3 litre 4 cylinder used in the Isuzu Dmax utes (sold in NZ, Australia and Asia) and completely different again to the 6.6 litre V8 sold in the US as Duramax.

This PDF from Isuzu shows all three applications and two of the engines.
http://www.isuzu.co.jp/world/environment/report/pdf/2003e_02.pdf

This webpage shows the 4JJ1 engine in the Dmax utes.
http://www.isuzu.co.jp/world/product/dmax/power.html

[marcecooter]

Hey Guys,

We're speaking about a way to get as much torque as possible from a simple 4 cylinders direct injection diesel, I don't want to go in to trouble with electronics\common rail\ and vnt turbochargers with step by step electric motors !
Perkins\Iveco\Isuzu\Mazda Tdi will be my choice, I saw in the market section a LT95+4bd1 set up for AUD$ 2000, the seller is in Brisbane...

[marcecooter]

I'm just in the wrong side of the earth this time !;)

[Dougal]

Hey Guys,

We're speaking about a way to get as much torque as possible from a simple 4 cylinders direct injection diesel, I don't want to go in to trouble with electronics\common rail\ and vnt turbochargers with step by step electric motors !
Perkins\Iveco\Isuzu\Mazda Tdi will be my choice, I saw in the market section a LT95+4bd1 set up for AUD$ 2000, the seller is in Brisbane...

That's easy.
Engine, plus boost plus fuel to give safe EGT's.
First thing is get a decent engine fitted. The perkins will be a good start.

[marcecooter]

Hi Doug,

Do you know Mazda SL35TI is that good ?

[Dougal]

Hi Doug,

Do you know Mazda SL35TI is that good ?

Sorry I have no experience with those engines. I do see Mazda trucks with the T3500 badge still around though.

[marcecooter]

Hi,

I found an Isuzu 4bd2tc on an online market place in italy, could you tell me something about it ? Could it worth euro 2500 ??:o
It seems it's a indirect diesel....If I remember well It is not recognize as a good engine...

[rovercare]

Sorry I have no experience with those engines. I do see Mazda trucks with the T3500 badge still around though.


I think they are quite sound, I put the old garrett off my isuzu on one, 15 psi, no intecooler 720-730 max EGT's, its not to bad to drive now, atleast you dont have to split gears when unladen as you did before, its in a T3500 tip truck:D

[marcecooter]

Could you please email me some picture of this engine ? my email is cooter01 at libero.it, where at stay for @ ...:cool:

[Dougal]

Hi,

I found an Isuzu 4bd2tc on an online market place in italy, could you tell me something about it ? Could it worth euro 2500 ??:o
It seems it's a indirect diesel....If I remember well It is not recognize as a good engine...

The 4BD2 replaced the 4BD1T in some markets from about 1990 to 1994. It is an indirect injection version of the same engine. Efficiency is down about 5% but power is up because the engine was factory fitted with an intercooler.
The block is the same as the 4BD1T and it could be converted across to a 4BD1T if you wanted to later on.

[marcecooter]

I was surfing on Ebay this morning and It seems that Isuzu Paccar 16V engine, 3.9 Td are easily available in Uk for a £ 1500, any clues about this engine ?

Marcel

[Dougal]

Do you have a link?

[marcecooter]

Yes,

Here it's:

paccar engine | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=paccar+engine&_sacat=See-All-Categories)

[Dougal]

It might be a cummins 3.9 ISB. I have no experience with them, but google searches say common rail.

[marcecooter]

Just a question more: fitting a 4bd1t to a Land Rover 90/110 involves also gearbox relocating ?
It looks that Cummins 4bd1t Perkins 4236T and other big 4 cylinders diesel are too close to water radiator so I guess that fitting them to a standard gearbox LT77\R380\LT95 would place the engine too far from bulkhead and too close to water radiator, so I'm guessing if I'll have to relocate gearobx\transfer box a little back i the car....

[Bush65]

Just a question more: fitting a 4bd1t to a Land Rover 90/110 involves also gearbox relocating ?
It looks that Cummins 4bd1t Perkins 4236T and other big 4 cylinders diesel are too close to water radiator so I guess that fitting them to a standard gearbox LT77\R380\LT95 would place the engine too far from bulkhead and too close to water radiator, so I'm guessing if I'll have to relocate gearobx\transfer box a little back i the car....
The gearbox stays in the same place, i.e. uses same mount location on chassis, and same drive/propellor shafts.

The engine mounts are in a different location however, and radiator is in the same location - the radiator is almost same as the V8 radiator except outlet in RH tank is different as it is turned up '||J' (where '||' is section through tank and 'J' is outlet pipe loking from left side).

LT77 is asking for trouble with a 4BD1T. Standard LT95 bellhousing won't fit the any of the 4BD1 flywheel housing. Australian Land Rover 4BD1 and 4BD1T have a different flywheel housing to Isuzu truck 4BD1/T engines.

The 4BD1 that was fitted to Land Rovers also has a spacer fitted in the end of the crankshaft to suit the pilot bearing bush for the LT95 or LT85. The Isuzu version uses a sealed ball bearing in the crank.

[marcecooter]

Thanks John,

Just to understand better, how is the engine far from bulkhead and radiator ?

[Bush65]

Thanks John,

Just to understand better, how is the engine far from bulkhead and radiator ?
Sorry I can't go and measure just now, however the rear surface of the flywheel housing of a 4BD1 (front mounting surface of the gearbox bell housing) is approximately in line with the front of the foot wells. The air filter housing fits in the space behind the cylinder head and the bulkhead (above the flywheel housing and gearbox bell housing)

The fan shroud behind the radiator is similar (not same) as the one used with the Rover V8 engine - the space between fan and radiator is similar to that for the V8.

If I remember I will take some measurements later today or in the morning.

Edit: the following dimensions are for the 4BD1 with Isuzu (not Land Rover) engine mounts. The length includes the Isuzu (not Land Rover) bell housing
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/05/1203.jpg

[marcecooter]

Hi John,

Thanks for the Info, I'll take also some measurements today, just to check the available space in the back of the engine.
i however would place the engine a little back, as fitting the air box between The engine and the bulkhead (as i already did on a supercharger+turbocharger set up I did last year) would waste 200-250 mm..

More Later
Marcello

[Bush65]

Hi John,

Thanks for the Info, I'll take also some measurements today, just to check the available space in the back of the engine.
i however would place the engine a little back, as fitting the air box between The engine and the bulkhead (as i already did on a supercharger+turbocharger set up I did last year) would waste 200-250 mm..

More Later
Marcello
I took some measurements as per my previous posts. Note I am using a 4BD1T that came out of an Isuzu NPR59 truck. The engine is a 1989 year version and it has the stock flywheel housing and viscous fan (the flywheel housing, and AFAIK, the cooling fan are different to those used by Land Rover, so make a few mm difference in the measurements.

The rear of the flywheel housing is positioned as previously stated, i.e. approximately level with the front of the footwells - I didn't measure between the rear of the head and the bulkhead.

From the front of the viscous fan coupling and the rear surface of the radiator is between 80 and 90 mm.

The length of the engine from rear of flywheel housing and front of viscous fan is between 800 and 810 mm - my manual says this dimension is 806 mm for a 4BD1T and 795 mm for a 4BD1 - Land Rover version of 4BD1 will be slightly different again because the flywheel housing is shorter.

Regarding moving the engine back, this is something I plan to do when I get around to making different engine mounts, but only about 75 mm, as going much more will involve removal and replacement of the engine mounts on the chassis, as well as the crossmember behind the transfer case and will cause transfer lever problems for me (my transfer case is not Land Rover, and my gearbox is an Isuzu 6 speed MXA). I'm more than happy to have custom front and rear driveshafts made, and making the engine and gearbox mounts is not much of a concern to me. I believe this change to the engine position will improve weight distribution in my case, improve clearance between the engine sump and diff centre (I want to use a different diff) and allow me to drop the engine a bit to improve clearance between top of rocker cover and underside of bonnet for my intercooler.

In your case moving the engine back 200 to 250 mm will impact on clearances to the crossmember behind transfer case and seatbox depending upon what gearbox and transfer case you use. Maybe the short bellhousing kit for the R380 that Ashcroft can now supply will help. Because the chassis mounts for the 4BD1 are forward of the position used for the V8 and 2.5 L rover engines, you can utilise these to move the engine back.

When I had a 4BD1T in my bushie, I had the engine back a little over 300 mm, but I had also moved the bulkhead back.

[marcecooter]

Hi,

Please have a look at the following pictures:

300Tdi lateral side

http://inlinethumb11.webshots.com/48842/2720293410104532019S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2720293410104532019xpZUzD)

300Tdi's available space in the back (about 200 mm):

http://inlinethumb62.webshots.com/47037/2001324010104532019S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2001324010104532019MFdnZS)

and last but not the least, measuring from the back of the cylinder head to the radiator is 800 mm:

http://inlinethumb57.webshots.com/46776/2901218340104532019S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2901218340104532019IQPHbw)

It means that I have almost 1000 mm available in the engine bay area...or little less

[Bush65]

Below are pics showing tape measure from the bulkhead to rear of 4BD1T cylinder head (approx 270 mm) and to front of cooling fan and rear of radiator in the engine bay of my Australian assembled 1986 110 (120 inch wheel base) tray top. Note radiator is in standard position.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/01/96.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/01/97.jpg

[marcecooter]

Hi John,

It seems that you 4bd1t is shorter than my 300Tdi......:(

[uninformed]

John, when you say the radiator is in the standard postion, do you mean for a Tdi or for the 110. I thought that the LR 110's of that era, had the Rad further forward than a Tdi defender...as in the grill is further forward than the lights etc???

[kaa45]

John, when you say the radiator is in the standard postion, do you mean for a Tdi or for the 110. I thought that the LR 110's of that era, had the Rad further forward than a Tdi defender...as in the grill is further forward than the lights etc???

Only for the AirCon models :D

[Bush65]

John, when you say the radiator is in the standard postion, do you mean for a Tdi or for the 110. I thought that the LR 110's of that era, had the Rad further forward than a Tdi defender...as in the grill is further forward than the lights etc???
I meant standard for my model and year, i.e. Australian 1986 110 with Isuzu engine. I would not be surprised if the UK diesel version has a different radiator, AFAIK the Isuzu version used a modified V8 radiator (connection for hose between radiator and water pump inlet was changed). The mountings for the radiator are the same as far as I can tell between V8 and Isuzu and the radiator is the same. Only the County wagons had the grill extended (like defenders) for the air con - traybacks like mine did not have air con and the front of the grill is flush mounted.

[CHRIS ROGERS]

HI guys ,new to this site, greetings,I have a defender 110 1989 with standard rover v8 motor, gearbox according to specs is lt85 ,i am requiring info to do a isuzu 4bd1t conversion .what simple suggestions do u guys have?

regards Chris:)

[Nero]

The LT85 barely handles the 4BD1 (currently having mine rebuilt) behind a 4BD1T it simply won't be up to the job, actually the first thing the guy asked me is the motor turbed.

Eithier a LT95 (4speed) or RB380 out of a latter defender are stronger options however you'll need a 4BD1 to rover bell housing which can be a little difficult to trace. If you look up forum user "Grubb" he does a kit so you can fit the Isuzu truck gearbox to the LT230 transfer case, might be worth looking into.

[Dougal]

Grubb's conversion site is down. Anyone know where he is at?

[marcecooter]

Just a little update as my engine conversion as started this year.....:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/343.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/344.jpg

donor vehicle:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/345.jpg

Factory Oil Pan to avoid front axle hitting it....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/346.jpg

Oil Pan fitted (with longer oil pick up):

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/347.jpg

More to come...

[Ancient Mariner]

Crikey I thought I had a bit of a challenge with the 4he1t:o

[marcecooter]

Hello,

It's a good engine:

5861 c.c. 6 cylinder in line, direct injection with in line pump, full floating turbocharger, 180 hp in standard form and 245 hp intercooled (3200-3600 rpm) with wastegated turbocharger.
Torque is about 480-600 Nm (2000 rpm).
Timing is trough gears and it has also a built in steering pump, gearbox was a 6 over 6 (12 speeds) ZF but I'm goin' to fit a 5 speed ZF from a similar donor vehicle which has the same engine but a lower total weight (11,5 tons for the 5 speed and 15,5 tons for the 12 speed....).

Weight is about 500 Kg with air compressor (now gone) and oils....

[lokka]

Sure sounds like it will be a stump puller :D

What breed is the motor ? is it a cummins or an isuzu tho 5.8L of turbo diesel is more than enough cubes in a defer cant wait to see the end result as i have allways wanted a 6BD1 or similar in a rover :D

[flagg]

Pretty sure the Zeta just use an in-house Iveco motor. Iveco had made quite a lot of diesels.

[marcecooter]

It's as usual made by Sofim for IVECO, its marine counterpart is called AIFO, they fit these engines (8060 serie) since the eighties.
They were naturally aspirated engines (140 hp), long stroke, and later in the middle of the '80's several type of turbochargers were fitted..
Before the Tector era, engines 8060.XX were the most common engines here, they're very very cheap as far as concerning spare parts, and you'd find a lot at the scrapyard...

Moreover they're modular and available in a lot of variants, so you shall fit 5-6-12 speed ZF gearboxes (with divorced LT230 transfer off course in a Land Rover) to the same engine, as mainshaft, bellhousing, clutch plate (330 mm diameter) are always the same..

I spent almost 2 years to look for a suitable engine for my 110, but as you may imagine Jap's or Cummin's are rare pearl here...However I like Iveco engines a lot being them cheap, reliable and very powerful...

For example 2.5-2.8 Tdi from the Daily Classic serie are a lot more powerful than 200/300Tdi: instant reponse while depressing gas pedal, more torque and power (2.8 Tdi is in excess of 150 hp if well tuned with mechanical rotary pump).....And they last a life also....

[Bush65]

Thanks for keeping us updated. I will look forward to seeing how it progresses. Good luck.