slight shudder from auto trans [Archive] - Australian Land Rover Owners

trobbo

2nd June 2010, 08:23 AM

forward or reverse?

Could be the handbrake grabbing - they do that. More likely though that you need to get the transmission serviced and change of Atf.

The 'cheap' way to do it is just have a double flush of the transmission fluid done. The more expensive way is to also fit an aftemarket pan with replacable filter at the same time. It means that the next time you want to have the fluid changed it is a cheaper way of doing it.

Was speaking to Greg at AMV and he suggested to me to do the fluid every 50K even though LR say the box is filled for life. With the transmission costing 7K to repair I'm happy to over service with fluid changes at those intervals.

By the way the atf is not cheap.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/105951-atf-group-buy.html

CaverD3

2nd June 2010, 08:29 AM

You probably need an ATF flush and change with new filter.

See:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/105951-atf-group-buy-2.html#post1262935

[

justinc

2nd June 2010, 03:21 PM

Service that trans. Do it NOW.:(

JC

Blknight.aus

2nd June 2010, 04:51 PM

If its not the hand brake its the clutch packs starting to slip....

service it. IF it still does it and after a recheck of the handbrake shows its still not the handbrake there is a friction modifier you can add to the oil to get a little more life out of the box BUT its just delaying the inevitable and you'll find the rebuild after using the modifier can cost more due to increased wear.

Best of luck.

KOOS BEST

3rd June 2010, 03:15 AM

when l give the D3 a bit of stick it gets a little shudder from the Auto Trans.
Hi , had excactly the same symptons , had the gearbox flushed and the shudder is gone . Very expensive oil, luckily had an extended motorplan.

Busman

3rd June 2010, 06:02 AM

Thanks Guys,

Booked for a AUto service for next week:eek:

Appreciate the advice:)

Nomad9

3rd June 2010, 11:38 AM

Trobbo,
Aftermarket pan, where do you get them from? Land Rover or someone else?

CaverD3

3rd June 2010, 11:46 AM

A&B automatics in Melbourne do a steel pan but I belive ZF Australia do an alloy for the ZF for the Falcon.

trobbo

3rd June 2010, 11:58 AM

It is an aftemarket product and not factory so I am not sure if dealers will sell them. The pan is made by A&B Auto's in dandenong.

I got mine through Ritters. AMV also do them (both in Vic). Sorry not sure of any one in WA who sell them.

Nomad9

15th June 2010, 02:52 PM

Hi Caver D3,
I've purchased a new pan from A & B it's on the way, so now somewhere I saw a picture slide of the actual fitting of the steel pan, I cannot find this anywhere now, do you know where this picture strip is? You seem to know most other stuff!!
Oil seems to be the other hot topic, I was quoted close to $100 / litre from LR which whilst I'm sure it's really good oil but this does seem to be a tad over the top. Apparently it's a Shell oil, A & B use another oil so there is alternatives is there anything out there that is regarded as a equal? I'm quite heavily into Royal Purple lubricants so I'm chasing this up with them, they are usually very helpful and usually have the right answer even if it does cost a little bit extra. Can you shed any light on this little lot?

Nomad9

15th June 2010, 03:01 PM

Hi Busman,
Just to let you know, "you are not alone", I've had this happen a couple of times when taking off with my camper trailer on the back, no other time as yet. I'm planning a bit of a trip around Xmas I've got 90k on the clock so I'm about due for an oil change.
Based on your experience and others advice I'm now going down the steel pan route. I've bought one from A & B today, it's on the way. The prices was as specified, that was without the oil, that added a fair bit more on top especialy getting the oil over to Perth. A & B were most helpful I must say, great to deal with.
Depending on what I get back from the forum will depend on what oil I plumb for I'm not really up for a $1k oil change if I can help it.

CaverD3

15th June 2010, 03:22 PM

Hi Nomad
NFI where the picture is. :(

But the ATF I know something about.
ZF Australia supply the ATF for A&B autos. It is the same as the LR product and comes from ZF Australia. I think it is about $20 a litre wholesale. They quoted about $32 a litre for 15L it also comes in 44 gallon drums.:D

ZF Lifeguardfluid6 (ZF No. S671 090 255)

Approved lubricants for service fills

According to spare part number of vehicle manufacturer:
AML Oil No. 4G4319A509/AA/S
Audi /VW Oil No. G 055005 A1 / A2 / A6
Bentley Oil No. PY112995PA
BMW Oil No. 8322 0142516
Hyundai Oil No. 040000C90SG
Jaguar Oil No. Jaguar Fluid 8432
Land Rover Oil No. TYK500050
Maserati Oil No. 231603

http://www.zf.com.au/Tech%20Info/Lubrication%20Lists/TE-ML_11.pdf

See:DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - ATF Group Buy? (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic51270.html)

LR OEM is a rip off. :mad:

Nomad9

15th June 2010, 05:17 PM

Hi CaverD3
See helpful as ever. After reading that quite lengthy thread I think I'll go with the ZF tranny fluid. RP have got an equivalent, but reading the post / thread, comes down to risk and consequence, high risk significant consequence, never sits well on a risk matrix. The local ZF repair shop round the corner from me has some Lifeguard6 I'll see how much he wants for 20 litres. I'll assume that the Lifguard mixes with the OEM oil seeing it's basically the same, I'll never get all the old oil out. Thanks for the help as usual.

CaverD3

15th June 2010, 05:43 PM

ZF have an alloy pan to fit the Falcon ZF sisx speed. Not sure if it will fit the D3?
I'll see what they sy.
Take photos when you fit your pan. A&B say just rip out the old fiter with the pan and chuck it. You don't need to undo the cross member or anything else.

gedaso

19th December 2010, 04:45 PM

Can anyone who has had similar problems describe this "shudder" ? Is it something that makes the whole car shudder, or more of a mild harshness you can feel through your feet on the pedals ?

My 2007 V6 has the latter - I'm wondering whether it is the dreaded gearbox vibration that a lot of folks talk about, or nothing to be concerned about...

trobbo

20th December 2010, 09:48 AM

feels more like the car has repeated consecutive hesitations rather than a vibration.

BONZER

20th December 2010, 12:45 PM

Hi gedaso,
My 05 TDV6 (120000km )developed a significant shudder in 2nd and 3rd gear around 1800-2200 rpm under any load. Once past this range it was as smooth as silk. This is not an uncommon problem and the answer is a very expensive replacement. Regular servicing of the auto, changing the fluid and the filter routinely, is now part of my maintenance program from my private LR mechanic. From my experience, I would encourage all D3 owners to have a full service of the auto done. It could save you thousands. Forget the ‘sealed for life’ rubbish.
John

Mully

28th December 2010, 10:24 AM

My D3 with about 130k on the clock had a significant shudder that the genuises who sold it to me could not diagnose... they actually thought the chassis ballasts may have been a cause even after me telling them repeatedly it was a trans issue. Anyway... never going back to 'that' Adelaide dealer again. [:(]

The shudder on mine was apparent only under load and incline and the tacho also used to hunt when cruising. The local auto mechanics (Lonsdale SA) diagnosed it pretty easily and after $660, I now have a complete service and pan changed over to one that can have the filter changed... next service is around $00 they say as a result.

Best thing is.. the shudder has gone!! Like having a new beast to drive. Back in love with the D3... that's how bad it was getting.

Service the ZF regularly... BIG tip #1.

Cheers.

PCH

29th December 2010, 11:09 AM

Hi There,

Apparently my auto was diagnosed to need a service but due to the cost of the recent service (needed front brake pads, discs and ball joints in addition tot he routine work) I could not afford the additional $990 for the auto service with the aftermarket pan and filter.

So my question is if $990 is reasonable or a ripp-off.

Thanks,

Chris

CaverD3

29th December 2010, 11:39 AM

Buy the pan and ATF directly from ZF it will be alot cheaper.

trobbo

29th December 2010, 08:17 PM

Ritters did mine for around $800 about 9 months ago.

NomadicD3

29th December 2010, 08:52 PM

PCH

30th December 2010, 11:23 AM

Hi all, Interesting read so far. I don't want to high jack the thread however in regards to the D3 auto, i have noticed that mine has a delay when shifting into drive from neutral, something i have noticed alot as i am in the habit of shifting into neutral when sitting at traffic lights, now there is a delay of about a second and if i accelerate before it has engaged on the drivetrain it will go in with quite a thump or sometimes just a slight shudder. I have not noticed any other vibrations in the vehicles anywhere in the rev range. Given what i have just read i'm a little concerned that this is an early sign of the auto about to pack it in??
Has anybody else had or have this in their autos?
thanks
Nomad

Sorry I don't have an answer but I have exactly the same issue. I use neutral at the lights and must concentrate on the lights to watch them change and preempt when I will get a green light to avoid the toot from behind while waiting for the transmission to engage and after selecting "D". With all of this talk in this thread I'm wondering if I should have had the auto serviced last month and just copped the extra debt just before Xmas - the last thing I want now is a bigger bill for a replacement tranny. "Penny wise is Pound Foolish".

Chris

gedaso

30th December 2010, 03:01 PM

Has anyone had an overhaul/oil flush/pan & filter replacement (ie something less than a complete gearbox replacement or major repair) performed under warranty ?

NomadicD3

2nd January 2011, 05:33 PM

Hi Chris,May i ask is this delay something that has developed or has your car always been that way? I have only owned mine for a few months and has always been there since i picked it up and assumed that it was the nature of the design. Rather coincidently i too had the 100 000k service { aka the very late 96k service:D} done a month or so ago. Had i read this post before that i would have had the auto serviced for sure.
Still this is by far the most awesome car to drive for long periods without suffering much driver fatigue.
cheers
Nomad

PCH

3rd January 2011, 09:24 PM

Hi Nomad,

I think the delay is longer than before. If I try to take off after engaging "D" without waiting a second the car hesistates as the auto engages and seems rough compared to having the auto in "D" and ready to take off.

Chris

Normthe1

6th January 2011, 11:19 AM

G'day all,

I love this forum. I just jumped on here to try and search for transmission and here is this thread just sitting waiting for me.

My '05 D3 TDV6 with about 115k has all of these symptoms too. A slight shudder or hesitation when taking off and slowly accelerating out of corners that I first noticed with the camper on the back, but I can now notice it without the van. I have also noticed the 'delay' when selecting D before actually moving forward.

Now what I am regularly seeing is what I would call slipping through the gears just after backing off the accelerator when I have reached my desired speed. Its always at low, suburban speeds and seems to be a harsh change with a bit of a thud from 2nd to 3rd or 3rd to 4th. I am also getting a little concerned about the fact that when I slow down to turn right through oncoming traffic, and have to almost stop whilst giving way, when I accelerate to move through the oncoming lane, there is a very noticeable pause before it changes down to first which happens very quickly indeed and we shoot forward semi-violently.

Now, I know that some of you are silently screaming "SERVICE THE ****** TRANNY NOW!!!" but will an LR dealer fit the new pan if I provide them with it or will they stick to the party line?

My D3 is still covered by the Allianz warranty and if possible, I would like to get this trans service done by LR preferably, or failing that, under warranty.

Cheers,

Norm

CaverD3

6th January 2011, 01:11 PM

Order the Steel pan and ATF direct from ZF. Dealer should do it for you.
Allianz will not pay for the ATF change but will get the transmission reconditioned.
Get the fault fuly diagnosed.

Normthe1

6th January 2011, 02:19 PM

Thanks Caver.

I spoke to A&B and they quoted $350 for the replacement steel pan and kit. ATF was extra but I didn't ask the price as I didn't want to think about freight to Perth.

I then rang Discovery Automotive here in Perth who are private LR servicers. They quoted $400 for the full tranny service however they replace the OEM pan with a plastic number rather than steel. That $400 included ATF too so that seems like the way to go for me. I'm not a rabid off-roader for the fun of it, I just like to go where I want to when I need to so the plastic is not much of an issue for me and its protected by the cross member anyway.

Allianz will pay for the service less fluids as you say mate so if it all goes to plan, I will be very happy indeed.

Cheers,

Norm

CaverD3

6th January 2011, 02:29 PM

Make sure they use the ZF fluid as most others do not meet the ZF standards for the six speed box. It can cause failures.

NomadicD3

7th January 2011, 09:38 PM

Hey Normthe1,
May i ask have you ever had Discovery automotive do any work before?Also It's a long drive from secret harbour to Wangara why didn't you get Rovertec to do it ,they are in Bently, 30mins closer. At $400 you can almost be certain that it won't be a ZF oil and it you follow Cavers advice it just isn't worth the risk. Actually, it's not just cavers advice, i have spoken to a few transmission specialists lately and nearly all of them say the same thing,l use only the ZF oil and don't put any additives in it... As you can tell I'm doing exactly the same research as you ATM and there is no way i'll be using anything other than the genuine zf oil.
good luck Norm

Normthe1

11th January 2011, 01:39 PM

Sorry for the late reply, been away for a bit...

Checked with DA and they use the ZF ATF, they buy it direct from ZF apparently which is why they can do the service at $400. I didn't ask but I guess the service does not include a double flush.

Nomad: in another post you said you found somebody who quoted a good price, can I ask who that is? You are correct, Wangara is a day trip for me but Bentley is the same if you factor in the service time. I haven't heard anything good or bad about Rovertec, I just don't trust the dealer. It is going to the dealer next week for last years recall work on the brake booster I think and the screaming EPB so I might get them to check the tranny out to see what they say.

Thanks again,

Norm

CaverD3

11th January 2011, 03:01 PM

Dealer will cahrge at least $80 a L for LR stuff. :angel::o

Nomad9

11th January 2011, 03:53 PM

Hi Norm,
What Caver says is right, I got my oil from the transmission place on MCcoy street in Myaree, Automac Transmissions, they are the agents for ZF in the state, I got a good price, BUT I had to buy twenty litres they wouldn't do a smaller amount. Saying that I've just got on a 9000 klm trip and the gearbox didn't miss a beat, towing my TVan all the way. So the cost of the oil now seems insignificant. The slight judder I had a couple of times has gone completely, phew!!!

Scary

11th January 2011, 04:44 PM

Is there a step by step guide for the ATF change that anyone has. Having not looked under the car amd not knowing what the pan is thta everyone is talking about I wouldn't mind seeing a workshop manual or similar for the job so I can just do it myself.

Any help appreciated.

Nomad9

11th January 2011, 11:33 PM

Normthe1

19th January 2011, 04:41 PM

G'day all,

Okay, I just took a deep breath, here goes...

I had already booked the D3 into the dealer for the recall work that came out lateish last year. Whilst there I asked them to check the transmission, due to the symptoms from my earlier post quoted below. Their diagnosis was that the trans is faulty, as determined by some diagnostic test results. End result, they reckon I need a new tranny at just under $7k. I asked the guy what about the flush and fill option and he said not needed, sealed for life etc... I told him that ZF recommend the flush around the 100k mark but he was unimpressed.

I told him that I was covered under the Allianz extended warranty and that I should be covered right??? He said yeah, maybe. I got him to talk to Allianz and this is the result, fresh off the phone this afternoon.

Allianz want the dealer to remove the trans and ship to a mob in the East, Auto Trucks or something, who will examine it. If they say it is a transmission fault, Allianz will repair/replace under warranty, covering all costs. If AutoTrucks say no, its a wear and tear thing, then they will return the trans back to the dealer here in WA, and its my problem. I would be only up for the cost to the dealer for them removing the trans and then obviously reinstalling it.

This will mean that I will be without the car for a minimum of 2 weeks with a possibility that they may reject the warranty claim and I will still be up for a shedload of money to replace the trans..!

Now, whilst overall I am reasonably confident that Allianz will cover it as a fault because, as we all know, its a sealed unit so its not that I have ignored any maintenance requirements, I'm a bit concerned that the reflush option has not been considered by anyone besides me?

How could 115k of life be considered wear and tear on a very expensive, state of the art transmission?

I only bought it a little over 8 months ago at 97k but I'm told that it had all its services on time by the previous corporate owner.

Basically, can I ask if anyone has had similar issues with Allianz covering the tranny or if the reflush option is worthy of more pushing from me?

Cheers guys,

Norm

G'day all,

I love this forum. I just jumped on here to try and search for transmission and here is this thread just sitting waiting for me.

My '05 D3 TDV6 with about 115k has all of these symptoms too. A slight shudder or hesitation when taking off and slowly accelerating out of corners that I first noticed with the camper on the back, but I can now notice it without the van. I have also noticed the 'delay' when selecting D before actually moving forward.

Now what I am regularly seeing is what I would call slipping through the gears just after backing off the accelerator when I have reached my desired speed. Its always at low, suburban speeds and seems to be a harsh change with a bit of a thud from 2nd to 3rd or 3rd to 4th. I am also getting a little concerned about the fact that when I slow down to turn right through oncoming traffic, and have to almost stop whilst giving way, when I accelerate to move through the oncoming lane, there is a very noticeable pause before it changes down to first which happens very quickly indeed and we shoot forward semi-violently.

Now, I know that some of you are silently screaming "SERVICE THE ****** TRANNY NOW!!!" but will an LR dealer fit the new pan if I provide them with it or will they stick to the party line?

My D3 is still covered by the Allianz warranty and if possible, I would like to get this trans service done by LR preferably, or failing that, under warranty.

Cheers,

Norm

gghaggis

19th January 2011, 05:28 PM

Do the tranny flush asap. You might lose $400 if it doesn't rectify the shuddering (however, a proper flush has worked for others), but you could save $7000. And not lose the car for two weeks.

Make sure whoever does it knows about the double flush procedure (RoverTech have done a couple of my clients' cars successfully). Fit the steel pan - in the long run it's the best option.

Cheers,

Gordon

CaverD3

19th January 2011, 07:03 PM

Auto Trax are two bit outfit in parramatta. Wouldn' trust them to check my weight. :angel:

Melbourne my be different. But no one in the industry has heard of them.
Mine was sent to them on a the back of a truck and they said the the transmission was fine. All they did was check the fluid.
Allianz eventually put a reconditioned tranny in but only after I got a number from the ombusman. The guy who sorted it has now left so all you get are the call centre idiots.

What are the diagnostic results?
What are the symptoms?

Normthe1

19th January 2011, 07:06 PM

Thanks Gordon.

I had a bit of a think and rang Allianz and asked them why it had to go East. They said because they wanted it checked by an authorised ZF repairer. I said what about the one in Myaree here in WA and they said...What??? They didn't know there was one. When I suggested that they might save shipping a big chunk of metal East and then West again, they were very interested.

I rang Automac and they want to have a drive of it as they reckon it could be the convertor. Interestingly, he didn't seem to think it would just need a flush of the ATF..?

Anyway, I will wait to get the final approval from Allianz in the morning and hopefully things will pan out.

Norm

Blknight.aus

19th January 2011, 07:46 PM

on the 2 cars Ive had with allianz 3rd party warranty they've been really good with actually getting on with getting things thats covered by their warranty fixed.

I had one problem with them once and it was the first time I had tried to use the warranty the CDL in a D1 wouldnt work and it was definately an internal failure as the shaft could be seen turning when the selector was moved. the second phone call got it flat bedded away for a same day repair.

"Gday, Im XXX and Im calling from the workshops at YYY one of the miliary units from holsworthy in regards to a discovery that has a broken transfer case."

magic word? Broken. The place that it had been initially taken to had assured allianz that it was worn.

Normthe1

19th January 2011, 08:42 PM

Yeah, I note the distinction between the descriptions.

I will try and make sure that there is no grey area when I get it checked out...

Cheers,

Norm

CaverD3

19th January 2011, 09:12 PM

At least you know that the auto trans place is ZF specialist. Auto trax had never done a ZF (lots of Hondas) and ZF had never heard of them.

I flushed mine and replaced the pan anyway, Allianz wouldn't pay for it. The policy is only for failed parts.

Blknight.aus

19th January 2011, 09:57 PM

the fluid in a Landrover auto is a critical part proven by 2 things.

1. the tranny wont work without it
2. It has a part number.

Nomad9

19th January 2011, 10:54 PM

Hi Norm,
If you really get stuck and you want a simple oil change doing and fitting the steel pan I might be able to do it for you. Not an offer I usually make to anyone but I would hate to see you get ripped off to the tune of $7k. Just an offer and due to work commitments it wouldn't be until after the Australia Day weekend. I would ask if you could get the pan, I have oil left over from my own oil change and steel pan fitting, I'm sure we could reach an agreement, maybe. See what you think.

Normthe1

20th January 2011, 10:13 AM

Thanks for the offer Nomad, and the other advice given by various people, but I think I have to follow this through to the bitter end now. When I spoke to Allianz this morning they officially warned me that now I had reported the issue to them, if I don't get the inspection now and something else happens to the transmission then it COULD void any further claims on the warranty, at least for the trans. Basically, I have to get the inspection done (at their expense and in WA now at least) and see how it goes.

I really do appreciate your offer Nomad, don't get me wrong and I may well take you up on the leftover oil if you are willing, if it comes to that but at the moment, I think my hands are tied.

I will let you all know what happens after Automac have a look at it.

Cheers again,

Norm

Hi Norm,
If you really get stuck and you want a simple oil change doing and fitting the steel pan I might be able to do it for you. Not an offer I usually make to anyone but I would hate to see you get ripped off to the tune of $7k. Just an offer and due to work commitments it wouldn't be until after the Australia Day weekend. I would ask if you could get the pan, I have oil left over from my own oil change and steel pan fitting, I'm sure we could reach an agreement, maybe. See what you think.

CaverD3

20th January 2011, 10:56 AM

When I spoke to Allianz this morning they officially warned me that now I had reported the issue to them, if I don't get the inspection now and something else happens to the transmission then it COULD void any further claims on the warranty, at least for the trans. Basically, I have to get the inspection done (at their expense and in WA now at least) and see how it goes

Hi Norm,

They did the same to me and insisted it went to Auto Trax on the back of a truck. Dealer had no loan vehicles available so I had to hire one. It cost them; the car hire and transport costs. It cost me time and inconvenence and the did not pay the car hires costs until two months after the claim was finalised. :mad:

After autotrax said the transmission was ok they requested further tests and said I should not drive because if it fails it would void the claim. I decided to drive it as they would pay no more hire car costs and their 'specialist' had not found fault. I decided I would go through the Ombudsman if I needed to. Transmission continued to shudder and exhibited harsh down shifts until it was replaced with a re-conditioned one from A&B remanufacturing is Melbourne. If they give you one from there you may get mine. :D
However you will find they will want to take yours out and send it to be repaired which means you will be without the vehicle for a while.

Hope Automac are able to say that something has failed.

Normthe1

20th January 2011, 11:16 AM

Very similar stories mate...

I hope though that if it needs repairing that it can be done in the West.

How long was your car off the road for?

Norm

Hi Norm,

They did the same to me and insisted it went to Auto Trax on the back of a truck. Dealer had no loan vehicles available so I had to hire one. It cost them; the car hire and transport costs. It cost me time and inconvenence and the did not pay the car hires costs until two months after the claim was finalised. :mad:

After autotrax said the transmission was ok they requested further tests and said I should not drive because if it fails it would void the claim. I decided to drive it as they would pay no more hire car costs and their 'specialist' had not found fault. I decided I would go through the Ombudsman if I needed to. Transmission continued to shudder and exhibited harsh down shifts until it was replaced with a re-conditioned one from A&B remanufacturing is Melbourne. If they give you one from there you may get mine. :D
However you will find they will want to take yours out and send it to be repaired which means you will be without the vehicle for a while.

Hope Automac are able to say that something has failed.

CaverD3

20th January 2011, 12:01 PM

At Auto trax for eight days. Then at dealers for only another three days to have the transmission swapped out but only because the manager (who has now left) approved a renconditioned swap. Call centre wanted to take it out and send for repair.

I would be ringing ZF to see who reconditions in WA. But Allianz may want to send it east. A&B are good with ZFs and know what they are doing.

Normthe1

20th January 2011, 12:30 PM

From talking to Doug at Automac, he seems to think (without having looked at it yet) that it may well be the 'converter', whatever that is. I didn't specifically ask him at the time, but got the impression that if it was indeed the converter then it is a simple fix, no idea of time of fix though.

If that is the case then hopefully I can avoid the reconditioning because the D3 is my only car and I am not looking forward to telling SWMBO that she will be on shanks pony for a few days/weeks...:(

I'm now waiting for her to get home from work to try and pick a good day to get it up to Automac...

Cheers,

Norm

At Auto trax for eight days. Then at dealers for only another three days to have the transmission swapped out but only because the manager (who has now left) approved a renconditioned swap. Call centre wanted to take it out and send for repair.

I would be ringing ZF to see who reconditions in WA. But Allianz may want to send it east. A&B are good with ZFs and know what they are doing.

CaverD3

20th January 2011, 01:13 PM

There are apparently two causes for shuddering in these trannys; torque converter failure and ATF starvation causing bushing wear and gradual increse in vibration and eventual failure.
Make sure he says failure of................ to Allianz.

You are entitled to (I think) $570 of car hire per claim. Just don't expect them top pay quickly.
I would not give the vehicle to them until he has all the parts though.

I would also have alook at the centre driveshaft bush (could be wprn or soft, check for black powder on suface) but the symptoms of this are usually vibration rather than shudder under load only at speeds over 100kph.

Nomad9

20th January 2011, 01:14 PM

Hi Norm,
The convertor is the big chunky bit that connects the engine to the gearbox, (crankshaft to input shaft in the gearbox) full name is a torque convertor which is what it does, converts torque. The gearbox has to come out to get access to the torque convertor. From my dealings with them, torque convertors aren't usually the component that breaks. It'll be interesting to see where you get to, my experiences with AutoMac have been good, albiet limited. They seem to know what they are doing and they usually have high end vehicles in the workshops which to me is a good indicator.
Keep us in the loop so we find out what the problem is, I'll be surprised if it actually is the torque convertor.

CaverD3

20th January 2011, 01:47 PM

They do sound pretty good. They are ZF specialists.
The torque converter is the bit on the front of the box, yes.
FYI the torque converter on the ZF 6 is a lock up type which means when the gear changes it goes from second to second locked to third to third locked etc. It has a clutch which is used to lock it up and if this slips it will shudder when it goes fro unlocked to locked. So it will appear to shudder on changing gears.
With old ATF the contamiants cause this clutch which is why a flush sometimes fixes the issue.
The other issue has similar symptoms but more of a vibration than a shudder.

Hope this helps. :D

Blknight.aus

20th January 2011, 08:42 PM

BE WARNED...

a flush can also kill the tranny....

if the old oil has lost enough lubricity when you replace it with new stuff you can occasionally have worse problems as the new oil is slipperier than the old stuff so packs/bands that were previously only just hanging on and doing their job no longer will.

fair enough the tranny is already technically dead prior to doing the change but a lot of people like to try and blame the mechanic when this happens.

I havent had it happen on a one of the new electronic style 22's but I have had a couple of the mechanical ones do it and they were fairly high K units.

I hope this isnt the case with yours but just in case......

kingo

20th January 2011, 09:06 PM

Hi all, if anyone is interested, I've just had a big service done on my 05 TDV6 with 110000kms at Ritters in melb. Cost was just shy of $3000 as I'm a LROC member and get a discount. Had the auto done, new pan and flush and new fluid. I'm happy to say, it's now smooth as silk. Also after having a good look myself, found the front left axle was worn, now replaced, with new rubber boots and grease, which apparently there wasn't much left. There was some vibration under load at speeds over 100km/h. The car feels like new, tight as a drum. No front end clunks, no clunks in the drive train. As there was prior, it's interesting, all the forum discussion on the front end don't seem to mention axles or axle joints(CV's), there's a new discussion. Also new brake pads and a new wiper blade on the rear to boot. Was expecting a big bill, but not such an improvement in the car. So credit to Ritters very pleased in the outcome. Hope you have the same success.
Cheers Andrew.
PS the loan car was a Ford Taurus, my god this was the ugliest car I've ever driven, couldn't wait to get back into my D3 and wasn't I happy.

Normthe1

5th February 2011, 04:17 PM

Right, to finish off this saga...

Got the D3 back today after a transmission rebuild to the tune of $6700 odd dollars, paid for by Allianz and their extended warranty extension. Another important lesson to those out there thinking about buying a 2nd hand D3...$3k buys peace of mind.

Reco in this case is new torque converter and clutches on a reco valve body.

It didn't go exactly according to the plan though as the ZF specialist plugged his computer in and got screwy info so talked Allianz into letting him handball it to another transmission place, who did the actual rebuild. I'm not sure why the ZF approved repairer didn't do it, but whatever.

The vehicle now drives like a new one, its really amazing to note the difference.

For those in WA, I can recommend Cameron at Auto Transmissions R Us in Osborne Park, they do heaps of work for Barbagello and he knows how to write the report, if you know what I mean. They had the job done in 6 days and provided a loan car free of charge.

Interestingly, he recommended that the ATF get replaced every 50k or thereabouts, as opposed to the 80-100k I have read here or the 150-180k as told directly to me by the dealer.

Thanks to all who added their opinions, cheers guys, I appreciate it.

Norm

Nomad9

6th February 2011, 09:42 AM

HI Norm,
I'm glad to hear you got everything sorted out. It's good when you find the right people and someone else is picking up the tab. Was the ZF repairer you mention the one in McCoy street in Myaree? Thanks for the information I'll keep this in the data base just in case. you never know!! Unfortunately I'll be the one picking up the tab so I best stick to the oil change regime mentioned.
By the way it's great that you fed back a conclusion to this so many times advice goes out and you don't hear anything, you aren't sure if the issues was resolved and if so how. Always good to know.

BONZER

6th February 2011, 01:45 PM

Hi Norm,
Glad to hear you have the new auto fitted. I had to fork out a similar amount from my own pocket for my D3 late last year:(, but I still reckon they are the best around and a gem to drive. Can't believe the difference the recon. box has made to the car.:)
John

Busman

6th February 2011, 06:46 PM

Well after my original post, l had the auto service by a local auto trans mob, and all good for around 6 months.
Still starting to do the same thing again, so have it booked at LR Dealership to hopefully fix the issue once and for all.
I now have 169,000kms on the clock, so the usual 160k Landie Syndrom is kicking in.
I have made few more posts on the D3 since.
I have just replaced front and rear diff centres, and hand brake acuator.
A cool $4,600.00 later, those three items have been replaced.
No l have also a power surge under load.
About 100rpm variation, which is anoying to say the least.
So the lm going to leave the D3 with the Dealership, give them a list of issues, and just go from there.
May need a stiff drink after l pay the bill.

Really though, the car is just plain awsome, and you have to expect issues when the car gets a few k's up on it.
But the pocket is certainly lighter:angel::(

Normthe1

7th February 2011, 11:36 AM

Yes mate, the very one. He for some reason gave it to Automatic Transmissions R Us, in Osborne Park. They are around the corner from Barbagello's and he said they do heaps of work for them and are an Allianz preferred repairer.

Norm

HI Norm,
I'm glad to hear you got everything sorted out. It's good when you find the right people and someone else is picking up the tab. Was the ZF repairer you mention the one in McCoy street in Myaree? Thanks for the information I'll keep this in the data base just in case. you never know!! Unfortunately I'll be the one picking up the tab so I best stick to the oil change regime mentioned.
By the way it's great that you fed back a conclusion to this so many times advice goes out and you don't hear anything, you aren't sure if the issues was resolved and if so how. Always good to know.

tomdon

12th February 2011, 11:17 PM

Have a 2005 D3 & should have joined this site years ago. Seems I am having the same probs as everyone else. As per LR had not done any servicing on the trans till about 12 months ago (200k) after shuddering started. Had a service done and steel pan fitted then, but now 20k later the problem is back worse than ever. Maybe time for an expensive rebuild?? Have done a bit of towing with a car on a trailer, could this expediate the symptons?? Have read somewhere about Ford saying something with relation to this and cruise control??

NomadicD3

13th February 2011, 07:14 PM

Hi Norm, Great to hear that the disco is back to it's finest. I must concur that cameron at auto trans R us really does know his stuff. I spoke to him before getting the service done at automac, reason being same service $800.00 cheaper at automac:confused:, so yes he knows his stuff but also knows how to charge for it.
Stilll not to many things in life more pleasurable than a smooth running disco:D.
Norm, the alliance insurance, where did you obtain that and can people get it at anytime in the life of the vehicle?
cheers mate

Normthe1

14th February 2011, 07:55 PM

G'day Nomad,

I got the Allianz insurance through Meaghan at Platinum Direct. If you do a search for "extended warranty" then you should be able to find the thread and her contact details. There was another bloke in QLD from memory (Meaghan is in Sydney) but at the time I was looking, he could not help me.

I believe that the warranty can be purchased even after the original manufacturers warranty has expired (I know mine was), but my memory is telling me it has to be before the car does 100,000 km. You will have to check that out though...

I didn't ask the price of the steel pan conversion from Cameron, are you saying he charges $800 more than the guys at Myaree? That would make it a $1200 transmission service??? Holy gods....

Anyway, like I said, its all good now. If you are SOR then maybe we can catch up one weekend and go for a drive..?

Norm

Hi Norm, Great to hear that the disco is back to it's finest. I must concur that cameron at auto trans R us really does know his stuff. I spoke to him before getting the service done at automac, reason being same service $800.00 cheaper at automac:confused:, so yes he knows his stuff but also knows how to charge for it.
Stilll not to many things in life more pleasurable than a smooth running disco:D.
Norm, the alliance insurance, where did you obtain that and can people get it at anytime in the life of the vehicle?
cheers mate

bbyer

14th March 2011, 07:10 AM

Hi Scary,
If you intend to do this yourself and install an original oil pan and filter you have to let an engine mounting go to get the filter on and off in one piece. If you go for the metal pan conversion with the independent filter with a couple of short sharp tugs you can break the original plastic filter pipe off and then install the new steel pan and filter without letting anything go, still a bit tricky and you need a torx spanner the same sort of shape and dimension as an allen key to get the torx bolts around the cross member area. If you want to buy the steel pan conversion kit I bought mine from A&B transmissions over East. You get a comprehensive instruction sheet with the steel pan conversion kit.
Hope this helps.

Does anyone have the ZF part number for the steel transmission pan conversion kit for the 3 with the 4.4l V8? I have 125,000 km on my LR3 now so think I should quit stalling re changing the oil. There was some discussion about doing that at about 80K, but I since all was OK, (and still is), I was somewhat apprehensive. My real concern was that the dealer was as well. They had the week previous, changed transmission oil on an LR2 and it had not gone well.

I intend to keep my 3 for quite awhile yet, so it sounds like installing the metal pan kit and associated filter is a worthwhile long term strategy. I find that it is usually best to know a bit about what one wants done before approaching the dealer on a subject.

CaverD3

14th March 2011, 10:18 AM

Same one no matter what the engine.

ZF number:

Complete kit, sump filtre, gasket and bolts.

1068 103 820 01 Kit Sump

bbyer

15th March 2011, 01:59 AM

I am just trying to get straight in my own mind the reason for replacing the plastic transmission pan and installing the metal one.

I gather that to remove the plastic pan, one has to lift the engine/tranny a couple of inches to clear the vertical nipple that relates to the built in oil filter "glued" to the plastic pan. The alternative to lifting the engine/tranny is to break off the "nipple" and then the plastic pan will slide out? Am I correct?

Once one has the plastic pan off, then one installs a separate oil filter and then bolts the replacement metal pan back on using a new gasket and 21 new shorter M6 x 22.5 torx cap screws as the metal pan is thinner than the plastic one.

Then next time when one wants to change the oil filter, all one has to do is drain the tranny oil, remove the metal oil pan, replace the old oil filter with a new one, install a new oil pan gasket and reinstall the metal pan and add oil - in other words, what one normally has to do with no special "secret" techniques.

One jpg below shows the separate oil filter, the other the combined plastic pan and built in oil filter, (what we already have), and the pdf has some actual photos of the ZF 6HPxx internals.

Nomad9

15th March 2011, 07:45 PM

Hi bbyer,
When I changed mine from plastic pan to metal pan in the end it was an easy job, well relatively. All you have to do is release all the original bolting, lower the plastic pan as much as you can and give the pan a few sharp movements North / South, you'll feel the plastic tube break. Then a bit of a juggling act and the old plastic pan comes out. Remove the old filter neck from within the gearbox workings, install the new filter, make sure the gasket faces are clean and slip the new steel pan into place. Put a couple of easy to get at bolts in place to hold the pan in place and then put all the other bolts in before you tighten any up. I tightened mine up from the middle out, the ones around the cross member are a bit tight and require some patience.
You MUST top up the gearbox oil according to the LR procedure, and the temperature of the oil is important when checking the level. I filled mine up as best I could then went for a drive, checked the sump temp with an infra red temp gun and topped the oil up at 45 degrees C I think it was. Since then mines be fine. Good luck, the chnage is worth it.

bbyer

16th March 2011, 01:02 AM

Thank you for the instructions re removal of the plastic pan. I will be giving them to the transmission place that I will get the work done at. They wanted assurances that I knew how to get the plastic pan off.

They know what a ZF transmission is but can only spell the name Land Rover. I figure that there are more 3's parked in front of any watering hole in Alice in the morning than all of Western Canada combined.

The tranny guys can get the metal pan direct from ZF shipped out of Germany, (and it is in stock), per CarverD3's part number. They want about 500 Canadian dollars for it, (about the same in $Aus or $US), and another hundred for shipping. That sounded a bit high so I wondered about that? I was considering asking them to recheck those numbers.

At the same time, their ZF LifeguardFluid6 oil price sounded OK, $600 for a 20 litre pail which seems like enough for a complete fill and then later on a drain and refill.

I note per the attachment below from the ZF website, it calls the Land Rover transmission a 6HP26X. Land Rover in their documents seems to delete the X. I wondered what the difference was - maybe heavy duty or something?

I appreciated the comments re fluid filling. From other fluid filling instruction sheets that I found, I noted that 45C fluid temperature sounds about correct as it seems that the fluid temp should be more than +40C and less than +50C; also and one of those infra red guns sounds like a good idea.

~Rich~

17th March 2011, 10:14 AM

Just been to my Mechanic and got some news re the Auto gearbox oil.
All the local Autobox service shops state that the Penrite oil which was getting approval to pass the ZF specs is now unavailable as they cannot purchase the additive from ZF anymore!
They are using standard Dexron 6 instead!
Of course any vehicle under warranty will get ZF but if not requested for vehicles out of warranty the Dexron 6 will be used.

ZF is tripple the price of the standard Dexron 6.
Be Warned!

CaverD3

17th March 2011, 10:28 AM

And LR OEM ATF is tripple the price of ZF Lifeguard 6. Rich, wasn't Penrite the wrong one they had to change or was it Dexron 6.
Not sure if Dexron 6 complies with ZF specs either?

~Rich~

17th March 2011, 10:45 AM

Originally they had changed my oil to the Penrite one after the oil rep for Penrite had told them that it had passed the ZF spec. Only to latter find out that that was not the case and subsquently drained mine & refilled with the ZF Oil.

The Dexron 6 does not pass the ZF specs!

brad72

17th March 2011, 10:46 AM

my dealer said gearbox oil change is around $500....ouch

bbyer

17th March 2011, 11:38 AM

my dealer said gearbox oil change is around $500....ouch

Here in Canada, the Land Rover and Jaguar dealers are at times combined. I do not know if it is the same in Australia but suppose it is in some locals.

Apparently the retail pricing of the Jaguar part number LifeguardFluid6 ZF transmission is significantly cheaper than the Land Rover part number LifeguardFluid6 ZF oil and both oils are the same stuff, just different list pricing.

Also the LifeguardFluid6 oil direct from ZF parts is somewhat cheaper again than either the Jag or LR list pricing. The lowest price for the LifeguardFluid6 oil seems to be about $600 / 20 litre pail, ($30.00 / litre).

My understanding is that the ZF 6HP26X automatic in the 3 takes about 13 liters when fully empty. For a mere oil change, about 6 to 8 litres for where the oil filter is not changed - that is the oil pan not removed - in others words, just when the oil pan drain plug is removed.

This means in an ideal world, a 20 litre pail should be enough for a filter change and then a dump and refill a hundred kilometers later.

Disco4SE

17th March 2011, 04:35 PM

Had my 48K service on Tuesday and quizzed the service manager about when & what cost for my auto flush & refill.
He suggested between 80K - 100K depending on how much I tow.
The estimated cost is $1,000.00.
Cheers, Craig

PCH

17th March 2011, 08:33 PM

I had my auto serviced with new A&B pan this week. At 132K Km it was shuddering and delayed in response for the past 10K Km.

It is sweet now and I can feel the difference in the way the D3 just takes off without delay unlike before.

Chris

Tote

17th March 2011, 09:32 PM

Quoted $1700 today for a flush and new pan / filter from the dealer....

Regards,
Tote

Busman

18th March 2011, 07:55 AM

I have done the flush previously, and only made a slight difference.
Our local Gold Coast Dealership have advised that they use an after market kit.
The reason they use this kit is so the next time you have the auto serviced, the pan can be removed without all the issues with moving cross member etc etc.
So initial cost is $1,500:o, but after that will be $650.00 for a full auto service.:)

oldsalt

18th March 2011, 08:43 AM

Busman

25th March 2011, 07:38 PM

Well the deed it done.
Had local LR Dealership service my auto trans on my D3.
$1,489.00 using an after market service kit.
So next service will be half the cost, using the new kit.
Certainly has taken the shudder away, but l have a hole in my wallet:(

$840.00 labour
$289.00 for after market service kit
$360.00 for trans fluid.

Tote

25th March 2011, 07:42 PM

Mine was serviced today as well. Still waiting for the result of the oil test to see if it has glycol in the trans but certainly works better.
Regards,
Tote

Busman

3rd April 2011, 06:00 PM

i am going to have a talk with Local LR dealership tomorrow, as the auto trans after spending $1500 plus is still shuddering, but not as bad as before.
When is it going to end with this car:mad::mad::mad::mad:

CaverD3

3rd April 2011, 06:48 PM

Happened to mine. Need a recon box.

Check the rear bearing/bush.

Busman

4th April 2011, 11:57 AM

Well the car is booked into the dealership Tuesday week, to have another look at the issue.
See how we go from here????:(

bbyer

10th April 2011, 05:04 AM

Early this week, I had the transmission filter pan changed and of course new oil added.

I had the shop install the factory standard plastic filter pan as the A&B metal pan kit is not readily available over here - can be obtained sort of, but not easily, and about $500 to $600.

I had the work done at a local ZF experienced shop, (there actually is one), or at least guys who know ZF well as they gets lot of experience kindly provided by the local BMW dealers. The good news is that this was actually their first LR3 and they agreed that getting to the pan was closer in difficulty to what I had described than what they really figured it would be.

The cost was about $400 for the pan and oil, (used the Jag part number ZF 6 oil), and another $400 for labour, plus tax. This I thought was quite reasonable. The CAN buck and $Australian are about equal.

I am pleased to say that acceleration is noticeably improved; shifting a bit smoother, (but was OK before), and to my surprise, gasoline usage, (I do not use the word economy with the 3), has improved by at least a litre or more / 100 km so I just might get some of my money back over time.

The fuel improvement did surprise me. Prior the display showed about 16 litres / 100 km around town and that is nothing to boast about, nor is the now displayed 14/15, but it is an improvement.

Looking at the magnets in the removed pan, for 126,000 km, (first time changed), there was a bit more metal than perhaps one would like to have seen. Each of the two round magnets carried about five slivers of metal perhaps a quarter inch long. There was also a 1/16" thick sort of metal/oil paste glued to the flat surfaces of the magnets - nothing real bad, but not ideal either.

Tote

10th April 2011, 05:04 PM

Busman

10th April 2011, 05:24 PM

Mine is shuddering again, not as badly, the dealership had a look last Tuesday and agreed it was shuddering but it is far worse when cold so they want to have a look at it when it's cold. Booked in again for next Thursday evening to drop off. I'm resigned to a new transmission but we'll see how it goes.

Regards,
Tote

Hi Tote,

How many Km's are on your D3??
Mine is also in for the same next Tuesday.
Simply do not have the cash at the moment to spend another few grand to fix an intermittant slight shudder!!:mad:

Tote

10th April 2011, 05:44 PM

148000 KM

Regards,
Tote

tempestv8

10th April 2011, 08:35 PM

So the ZF auto is used in other vehicles like the Ford Territory, and some higher end Falcons, Maserati, Volvo, etc.

Are other makes experiencing the same sort of issues?

Tote

10th April 2011, 08:54 PM

Yep.............Google is your friend.
Regards,
Tote

Busman

14th April 2011, 07:04 PM

Now I have had recently auto issues, with slight shuddering in top gear under load..
I have taken the car to the dealership, and had the full auto service completed. It was expensive and did not solve the problem, but the up side the gear changes are certainly smoother.
After considering my options and ringing around for second hand auto trans, to recon ones to new autos, the cost was at worst $9,000:eek:, yes $9.000 quoted for a new auto installed by the dealership, and the cheapest $7,000.
After further research l found out from my local Auto Trans business, that he has fixed quite a few D3's, and the issue is the Torque Convertor. Cost to repair $2200.
Easy to identify symptoms are particles in the trans fluid after the main service, attributing to the degeneration of the material in the TC>
Not main trans issues, as the gear changes are smooth at all times, inside the shudder range in top gear under load.
I can live with this cost, if the outcome is a fully operational auto trans.

Lets hope this will be fixed once and for all:angel:

Tote

15th April 2011, 08:10 PM

I Got the oil test results back from my trans oil this week. I am wondering if I have a porous transmission cooler. After questioning my results I got the following reply from oilcheck.

"We don’t actually have a method of directly measuring for Glycol yet, but sodium, potassium and water are indicators of coolant contamination. We used to report a glycol result by FTIR, but the accuracy of that value was found to be poor. We are still looking into a Gas Chromatography headspace method for the accurate determination of glycol, and we are likely to be able to offer this in the future.

Your sample though has elevated sodium content which almost always suggests coolant leakage. Water can evaporate from the oil leaving sodium, but I did question the very low water result. I’ve had the sample retested manually with the small amount of sample left, and actually found there to be an elevated water result of 0.13%. This along with the elevated sodium is further evidence of coolant contamination. Salt water is also a possibility if the vehicle has been in such an environment."

Unfortunately it's a bit hard to gain any meaningful info without a baseline as the oil has done 145000KM including some water crossings and week on Fraser Island. I'll certailnly be doing another oil test after the transmission problem is sorted.
I am very happy to recommend oilcheck who provide very good response and customer service. Oil testing laboratory, oil analysis laboratory, oil condition monitoring, oil testing services Sydney Australia - OilCheck Pty Ltd (http://www.oilcheck.com.au) You can order a sample kit over the web and pay using paypal. The test kit arrives with instructions and return mailing paid. Overall a very good service.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y127/toteau/D3%20Compressor%20and%20oilcheck/scan.jpg
Regards,
Tote

bbyer

16th April 2011, 12:36 AM

Based on your suggestion, when I recently had the local ZF transmission shop do the oil and pan/filter change on my ZF6HP26, I asked them about doing an oil analysis.

They looked at me sort of sideways, but did say that when they drain the oil, they can tell so .... As it turned out, the oil looked OK however it did not take sampling to see the metal bits stuck to the magnets - fortunately nothing much to yet get excited about at this time.

It is a totally different story with my airplane. Whenever the maintenance people change engine oil, (Lycoming O-320 E2C), they take a sample and send it off. We then compare it with the previous test results. This works well with aircraft engines as one is looking for metal contamination - or more correctly, how much more metal than last time and what is the stuff so we can sort of figure out what is wearing from the type of metal the results pick up.

Busman

26th April 2011, 05:55 PM

Folks, l will have the Torque converter repaired on my D3 next tuesday.
I hope to shed some light on some shudder symptoms, and hopefully it will help us all understand the issues, and may save money on an expensive repair.

Busman

9th May 2011, 05:45 PM

Interesting development on the auto trans shudder.
It seems that quite a few people who have auto trans issues, such as a shudder, seem to think the auto is worn out.
Various advise from dealerships and local workshops indicate a replacement of the auto trans box.
I contacted a reputable auto trans workshop on the Gold Coast, who has worked on D3's.
After some detective work, we discovered that the Torque Convertor is the issue.
The TC was showing burn marks etc from slipping.
Degeneration of the TC contaminates the auto trans fluid, and blocks the fliter.
The TC is the direct result of the shudder, and not the auto trans itself directly.
I hate to imagine how many people have been slugged huge amounts of money to replace an auto trans box.
The cost to repair my car is under a third of the cost, and solves the issue.
I thought l would at least share my expereince, and maybe if someone is experiencing the same issue, explore the option of the TC.
(1 Torque Convertor degeneration and shudder creating burn marks
(2 Degeneration of material fouling the auto trans filter

I am no mechanic, but understand the issues car has had, and the solution that saved me alot of money !!!

unseenone

9th May 2011, 11:21 PM

Where did you take it Busman?

Busman

10th May 2011, 06:41 AM

Where did you take it Busman?

Russells Automatics
Siganto Drive,
Oxenford,
Queensland,

Busman

14th May 2011, 06:16 PM

Picked up my D3 today after the Torque convertor was repaired, and very happy with the result.
The changes are very smooth, and responsive.

FYI Costings>

X1 ZXF-626011 6HP26 FILTER FOR STEEL PAN $17.60
X1 ZX-626010 STEEL PAN 6HP26 (REPLACES PLASTIC) $186.35
X1 ZPG-626006 6HP26 GASKET FOR STEEL PAN $9.38
X21 ZX-626030 BOLTS FOR STEEL PAN $85.26
X10 1 LTR ATF Z FLITE 6 OEM 6 SPEED ZF FLUID R-128 $411.20
X1 181566 TORQUE CONVERTER $750.00
X1 WORKSHOP MATERIALS ETC $40.00

SUB TOTAL $1,499.99

LABOUR: $800.00

10% GST $230.00

FINAL TOTAL $2,530.00 INC GST

20,000KM WARRANTY OR 12 MONTHS WHICH EVER FIRST.

If you have a Auto Trans Shudder, start looking at the TC first.
This was certainly a less expensive option, and the outcome l am very happy with.

Hope it help someone with their auto trans issues.:)

Mike_S

15th May 2011, 04:01 AM

Busman, have you had the oil checked for glycol contamination as well (I've not fully read the last 9 pages so may have missed it) to make sure you're not looking at having to replace the radiator as well ?

My independant here in the UK wants to get hold of one of these metal sump pans, so we can try it on my car before it leaves for Oz later this year and from then he'll be offering it as a service option if the pans are available here, so thanks for quoting the part numbers in your post. I'll send them onto him to see if he can obtain them.

unseenone

15th May 2011, 05:59 AM

Which metal pan did you end up with, the ZF one, or I heard there is one made in Austrailia. Sourced the ZF here in the us for 285.00 so I am sure it can be done in UK as well, as they come from Germany directly.

Tote

26th May 2011, 09:36 PM

New Transmission required:mad:

Quoted $6800 Drive in - drive out by A&B in Melbourne, Steel pan and latest updates to the transmission included. 2 yr warranty
Approx $7500 by a Canberra repairer with the exchange supplied by A&B
Quoted $11952.42 by Dealer, presumably with a LR sump

I have logged a complaint with the Office of Fair Trading since Land Rover have no intention of contributing to the costs of repair. Failed within the 3 yr warranty period with 145000KM on the clock. I'm a bit dirty about the $1040 the dealer charged to do the oil change which patched the problem for a month before it reoccurred as well.

I think the lesson here is

Change your Transmission fluid regularly

Not sure what regularly means, local repairer reckons 40,000KM, ZF say between 80000 - 120000 KM.
On a reassessment I dont think that the oil report indicated that the cooler is leaking but I will continue to get the oil tested and watch the results.

Regards,
Tote

101RRS

26th May 2011, 09:42 PM

That is not good - whom is the local repairer? Did you find a ZF dealer in Canberra/Queanbeyan?

Did you try a Ford dealer??

Garry

unseenone

27th May 2011, 01:31 AM

I was educated by bbyer on the subject of the pan change. The reason why you would want to fit a metal pan is that to change the filter on the factory pan, you have to change the pan, the filter is built in. In order to change the pan, you need to lift the engine slightly, a real hassle, and expensive.

One particular handy tip was to cut the old pan off, if fitting a metal pan, and you do not need to lift at all. The metal pan can be fitted, and removed for filter change without the need for lifting.

It seems like, if you did 2 filter changes, the metal pan would pay for itself.

I see the updated, new transmission required after I posted. These transmissions can be rebuilt, much cheaper than a new one. The common failure points (sounds like your problem) is the torque converter. These transmissions are in a lot of vehicles and are rebuilt regularly, for a lot less money... It might be worth contacting some transmission shops familiar with the ZF Transmissions. If you cannot find parts, let me know and i'll point you in the right direction.

Excellent video of how the ZF torque converter works, which is more often than not, what goes wrong. The next video, after that shows a torque converter being built (not ZF) It is easy to see, based on this video, how and why the judder might develop.

YouTube - ‪ZF ZDW new converter generation for passanger car transmissions‬&rlm;

g'day

PM Me for Diff parts

CaverD3

27th May 2011, 10:00 AM

New Transmission required:mad:

Quoted $6800 Drive in - drive out by A&B in Melbourne, Steel pan and latest updates to the transmission included. 2 yr warranty
Approx $7500 by a Canberra repairer with the exchange supplied by A&B
Quoted $11952.42 by Dealer, presumably with a LR sump

I have logged a complaint with the Office of Fair Trading since Land Rover have no intention of contributing to the costs of repair. Failed within the 3 yr warranty period with 145000KM on the clock. I'm a bit dirty about the $1040 the dealer charged to do the oil change which patched the problem for a month before it reoccurred as well.

Regards,
Tote

Worth fighting for LR to replace FOC as under consumer legislation there is a "reasonable expectation" that a transmission on a car will last longer than 140,000km.

bbyer

27th May 2011, 10:56 AM

I have been fortunate in that I do not have a lot of experience with paying for transmission repairs. Over the past 30 years, I have had to deal with a few of them on GM products however.

I was fortunate in that I had a shop that I trusted; hence the repair philosophy was tear it down, see what it needs, and if it is not too bad, fix it. In all cases, (about a half a dozen), the problems were fixed for less than the initial estimates. Basically a tranny repair seems to be a judgement thing as to what is good and what should be replaced.

The torque converter, at least as far as my repair shop was concerned, was a sealed unit, and it was either a replace, or don't touch, sort of approach; the rest of the tranny repair was "we will keep this and replace that". I do recall one time them asking me how the minnows got in after I had taken the pickup swimming one weekend.

The only repair that annoyed me was on my Buick Roadmaster where the torque converter had to be replaced. It did not actually quit until after the GM new car warranty had expired. I knew there was a problem but could never duplicate it at the dealership - there was only one hill in Alberta about 200 miles away where it would shutter - that was until after the warranty expired and then everyone seemed to remember that my tranny was the one with the weak converter and it should be replaced with the upgraded one. It was, at my expense.

Mully

27th May 2011, 11:43 AM

Good to catch up on this thread and see all the happenings...

Thought it worth adding that I bumped into a former LR mechanic who has seen this issue a lot and he told me at length how the torque convertor was the real issue with transmission shudder on the Discos... made a lot of sense when he explained how on the XR6 for example, you put the boot in and the wheels spin. All the torque goes somewhere... on the Disco you have near 3 tonnes to prevent any wheel spin etc and the fluid gets hot as a consequence and eventually the torque convertor will become an issue. Made sense and seems very consistent with the comments in this thread.

Mine has had a fluid change and pan change as previously mentioned and now has a slight shudder back. Nowhere near as bad but still present and we can all only hope the tc swap outs will come down in price as the problem has bulk discount status applied to it.

Unfortunately the engineers of the D3 really dropped a lot of balls (does that sound rude?).

Cheers to all.

101RRS

27th May 2011, 05:19 PM

Worth fighting for LR to replace FOC as under consumer legislation there is a "reasonable expectation" that a transmission on a car will last longer than 140,000km.

Certainly as the Land Rover service schedule indicates that servicing (changing fluids) is required only every 240,000km under normal usage.

Garry

Tote

9th June 2011, 07:51 PM

bbyer

9th June 2011, 11:41 PM

It has just occurred to me that fluid level checks are not a routine part of an oil change any longer.

I realize that this comment sounds silly, but now that I think about it, twenty years back, an oil change also meant also unscrewing the fill plug in the rear end and sticking ones finger in to feel the oil level if none started to flow out; same with a manual transmission, and with the automatic, pulling the dip stick at warm idle and both looking at the fluid level and smelling it.

Now, if one wants the fluid level checked in something, it is first a special to be requested flat rate procedure and a bill for new plugs. Given that there is no routine level checking when going for a dealer change oil, and there is often some question as to if the fill plug will even unscrew as it is probably frozen in, we pretty much have proof that sealed for life means ignored till dead.

The new engine on the V8 petrol LR4 does not even have a dipstick. This reminds me of heavy jet engines that use sensors for everything and an in flight shutdown is the answer to a low oil level indication. At least for the most part, the jet sensors fail with oil still in the engine; I hope the Jaguar sensors fail the same and then there is the question of how does the driver react to another red light or whatever on the dash -the way they most often do to the red low oil pressure light I suppose -tape over it.

There is a drive line over temperature light display on the dash, but I am not clear if the temperature being measured is at the transfer case or within the automatic transmission or perhaps the differentials? From what I can find, however, is that the temperature being monitored is that of the electric transfer case motor as there is a temperature sensor located within the electric motor housing. That is not what I would have had in mind if I had been designing red lights. I guess what is now clear is that there is no low oil level warning sensor within the transfer case design.

This I suppose will be the same story with the front and rear differentials - no oil level monitoring and no temperature monitoring and of course, no routine manual level checking.

Busman

10th June 2011, 07:46 AM

More exciting news - it seems that my transfer case is also damaged beyond repair. The front driveshaft splines had welded themselves into the transfer case. When they got it out it seems that I am up for a new transfer case. Early diagnosis is that it may be lubricant related. Checking my service records I can find no evidence of ever being charged for the transfer case oil that is supposed to be replaced at 120000KM. ****ing dealers.

:angrylock:

Regards,
Tote

:eek::eek::eek::mad::mad::mad: You are kidding !!!
I replaced my transfer fluid at 170k, and was quite discoloured.
The issues you have experienced have not got any better for you Tote.
What was the final verdict with the auto trans???

Mully

10th June 2011, 09:57 AM

What the.... there are going to be some mad scrambling sounds from every ones car ports and garages this weekend I reckon as we all check our transfer boxes out.

Tote this bites totally.... I can only hope that the bill does not induce a heart attack... this is crazy stuff.

Dave had your box had a fluid change prior to 170k?

BBYER I was told by a very good Alfa Romeo mechanic who queried the lack of dipstick when he got his first BMW to service. He has a close mate at BMW who promptly informed that because the cars were so reliable now, they aim for parts sales precipitated by component failure.... kind of seems right in relation to what we see now on our modern designed vehicles with inherent fault inducing features.

We could add FIF as one of the acronyms to the feature pack? D3 TDV6 HSE FIF perhaps?

Cheers(?)
:)

Tote

10th June 2011, 10:03 AM

Busman

10th June 2011, 01:04 PM

Some more info on the Transfer Case. The fault is that the splines that mate with the gearbox output shaft are quite severly sawtooth shaped. The fact that the dealer hasnt changed the transfer case oil would not have affected this. There is also evidence that there has been water in there at some point but this is not unexpected and the housing has open drain holes. My guess is that the assembly lubricant put on in the factory was not sufficient and combined with my use of the vehicle offroad has contributed to the spline wear.
Not sure how to prevent it, maybe a silicone seal over the drain plug?? The new one will be assembled with an adequate amount of lubricant. I also wonder that given the difficulty that the repairer had getting the transfer case off whether the splines would have lasted another couple of hunderd thousand KM before they stripped.

Transfer case is not a repairable item in AUS, LR Aust wanted $5500 and a month to get one here. Repairer has sourced one out of the UK for approx $4K landed.
End result of my negotiations with LR aust over the transmisssion was "I'm sorry sir that is not covered by any sort of warranty" a case has been logged with consumer affairs so we'll see what happens.

Regards,
Tote

PS. The comment was made that no previous Land Rover had experienced this problem as they has sufficient lubricant weeping past the seals to prevent it.

Tote, Not trying to plug Nerang Diff Service, but he will be able to repair the transfer.
Maybe a phone call to him would be a help !!
The Transfer would need to be freighted to him. (e-go.com) very cheap !!
I have found him fantastic, and has contacts here and overseas to source parts promptly.
He looks after quite a few Landies from the GC Landrover Owners Club.
Another option, contact British Offroad and ask for Mark. He has a wrecked D3, and also MR Automotive, Redcliffe. Brisbane. He also has a wrecked D3 or can source one for you.
A suggestion for some options only.
If l may be of any assistance with some info, feel free in asking anytime.

Tote

15th June 2011, 07:06 PM

Well my truck doesn't shudder anymore. $13999.87 later. That included a service as well.....
Transfer case, new out of LR UK $4263.65
Transmission Reco from A&B $6000

Interestingly a slight clunk from the drive train when accelerating from a trailing throttle is no longer there, I'll put that down to the worn splines. The transfer case was a new one on an exchange basis , it seems that LR UK want some cores to rebuild.

Transmission output shaft. Looking closely you can see the difference where the splines weren't engaged.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y127/toteau/D3%20Trans/IMG_3467.jpg

Input shaft on transfer case

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y127/toteau/D3%20Trans/IMG_3470.jpg

Transfer case

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y127/toteau/D3%20Trans/IMG_3469.jpg

Another close up of the input shaft, unfortunately most of the splines are out of focus.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y127/toteau/D3%20Trans/IMG_3471.jpg

Regards,
Tote

ozscott

15th June 2011, 07:50 PM

Modern vehicles out of warranty are like a very expensive time bomb in some cases. I feel for you mate. I have a good mate with an XC90 iced vovo - JUST inside warranty. Cosseted vehicle. No towing or off road. Owned and serviced by Volvo since new...new auto box...would have been a $7,000 part (add labour to that) alone if it had gone a little later in the day..

There is, without a doubt, something to be said for a good old fashioned 5 or 6 speed manual box.

Cheers

TerryO

16th June 2011, 08:43 AM

In reality OzScott the main difference is that when vehicles get older there are often lots of them in wreckers where you can buy spares from at reasonable prices. This is the case with D1's and D2's, but not yet with D3's.

When they are fairly new like D3's are then your choices are very limited and usually you have to buy new parts. I bet in another five years time when D3's are the same price as D2's are now there will be a reasonable choice of second hand parts available at good prices.

As for manuals versus auto's and which one is better in Disco's I have both so I'm not supporting one over the other as both serve their purpose.

PS...Sorry to hear Tote that you ended up with such a horrific bill.

cheers,
Terry