GEMS vs Thor

[Gullible]

The P38s are slowly sliding down to my price range, and now the question becomes:

Do I spend $11k on a 1998 GEMS or do I spend $16k on a 2000 Thor?

Was there much difference between the two vehicles except the engine management (is there a big enough difference to pay the extra)?

My understanding is that both have EAS issues, both have the same chance of slipped liner. Were all the other bits the same, like drive train, transfer case, ect?

It will be our daily driver with a bit of light off-roading and a couple of day trips down the beach (we do about 10km a year)

I'm not fussed on the state of the body work, I do not like sunroofs, leather seats sound nice but not a biggy.

My mechanical skills are low but happy to learn (I do not know much about engines but I do not mined playing around with bearings, seals, ect).

I was thinking that if I got a 1998, $4k is a far bit of money to keep in reserve to buy:
EAS bypass thingys
Arnett IIIs when the EAS goes
Put towards LPG system
Get a nanocom thingy

Or do I just buy a more modern 2000 Thor :confused:

[81stubee]

IMHO, if your not real fussed about the bling then there would be nothing wrong with a GEMS. They both have there fors and against.

BOSCH

Engine management is a more modern ECU with really good adaption strategies built in. I believe it provides a slightly smoother idle, and more torque down low. however due to the design of the manifold a few things are a little harder to work on, such as the injector and coilpacks etc.

These also have a better gearbox ECU that is adaptive and communicates a lot better with the Engine management. Connectors were revised to provide better waterproofing etc... The bosch cars also got slightly better quality interiors and a few extra pieces of bling, maybe some sound deadening etc.

GEMS

The first versions of these came with not O2 sensors, however I have been told that this is not an issue unless you chip it.

In summary, if you can do without the self dimming external mirrors and padded arm rests then a GEMS would be worth the savings. However, IMHO it must be 97 or later, and be aware that some of the 98's were a bit of a bitser, with different parts from other P38's which can only be indentified with the VIN number.

Hope this helps,

Stu

P.S. I have a 97 HSE,

[adm333]

I have a 97 HSE with GEMS.

I actually prefer it to the Bosch Engine.

The only way I can describe it is that the older ones with GEMS feel and sound a lot more like a "grumbly" V8.

To me, the bosch feels a bit more "tinny"

There you go, the worst response ever written. It will only make sense to others who have driven both and prefer the GEMS - I know there are a few out there.

Oh, and one technically useful tidbit (possibly). The bosch can only have injector LPG installed. The GEMS can have Mixer LPG (as mine does) which is cheaper to install.

Dave

[green_rangie]

What year did ABS upgrade from rear only to all 4 wheels ? I know the first of the Thor's had 4 wheel ABS.

[Junosi]

I think you mean traction control - not ABS, although TC does use the ABS system. TC was rear axle only initially and became standard on both axles from 99 onwards. There was something different about the speed at which TC operates at too - Thor worked at higher speeds, although that's largely irrelevant

[PhilipA]

The Thor has much more low rev torque for towing and the engine therefore sits in a lower rev range most of the time.

IMHO the Thor manifold transformed my 3.9 from no guts revver to a more modern feeling and gutsy engine.
Fuel economy should be better with Thor also, But I do not know the real world comparison.
AFAIK BMW also did a lot of work on relaibility of the BECM and there were ongoing improvements with sourcing of the little things like micro switches.

I recall Graeme Cooper telling me many years ago not to touch a GEMS, but Thors seemed better at that stage but it was early days then.

Certainly if I were buying one I would buy a Thor every time as it does not take long to spend 6K on a 38A.

Regards Philip A

[wayneg]

just try both going up and down a very steep slippery hill in low range. In my limited experience the Thor is MASSIVELY more controlled and poised..... just my biast view

[DT-P38]

I reckon its an either way choice, I have a '95 and nothing against my 'pretty pig' but a later model would have been a better purchase (but was simply financially prohibitive 6 or so years ago). From what I've read on here, they are usually more reliable (but newer, so shouldn't they be?), a little more sophisticated technically and a bit better looking (matter of opinion but I personally do like the clear lights and bigger wheels look.

I'm not even certain if a well sorted early version is going to be a better proposition than a poorly maintained late model. I would think though that it will probably be cheaper in the long term.

Most important is the usual common sense car buying stuff that should hold sway with your decision making...

Go for low km's, one owner, full service history with no/little off roading or major accidents. A lot of these relatively expensive when new vehicles have dodgy service histories after the wealthy owners (or more likely businesses) stopped paying the (tax deductible) bills during their initial lease periods. The run it into the ground mentality is especially ease to foster when stealer-dealer costs are ridiculously high (300% mark up and higher hourly rates than my GP charges).

Put time and resources to work pre-purchase to seek a "known" vehicle or get any others checked for the usual foibles (especially condition of engine/cylinder liners if possible). If heads off check is not possible (probable not usually) then at least go to a reputable LR repairer (that you will use from time to time in the future) and have them plug it in and check it over... and produce a written report. DO NOT trust RACV-NRMA (or similar) to look over and report on one unless the agent is a known LR expert. With out specifically naming the poor performer (I live in VIC) I feel I got stiffed on the pre-purchase report on mine...

Make sure the fuse box is in good nick no signs of over heating/burns and ensure all the electrics work properly. Double check heater/AC operation and see if pollen filters have been changed regularly and that plenum foam is in good nick (primary entry point for crap to enter and foul/damage system).

DO NOT buy one with oil leaks, it's not worth the silly costs involved in simple gasket and seal replacement (if you don't do that stuff yourself). Remember, even though its a standard LR joke, there are plenty of well looked after ones with out leaks.

Buy one with as many factory accessories as you can... simple little things like a-bars and brush guards are ridiculously hard to come across cheap second hand and you don't want to even think about new prices. Even if it's stuff you don't want or like take it as you can probably make some decent coin e-baying off unwanted P38 accessories! ;)

Save a little cash if you can for:

- Cooling system refresh (flush radiator, check water pump, viscous coupling, hoses and belts & repair/replace as required) I reckon just do it wether you think its required or not as its worth the peace of mind;
- Purchase and fit (DIY) HRA's EAS Bypass and on board air kit's;
- Doing (DIY) EAS & suspension component rebuild when it goes (cause you have the HRA to 'get out of jail' on a breakdown anyway);
- HRA Snorkel (DIY & nearly ready for market) if you intend any contact with water or mud above hub/sill height when off-roading;
- Gas conversion to whatever is within your budget but injection is usually a large step up in cost (although Junosi seems to have gotten his done at reasonable cost). Note: mixers can be prone to backfires which usually end up being spark/misfire related;
- So last add a full service to the list (plugs, leads, filters & oils for engine, trans, and diffs also get a grease and tune).

I seriously doubt there will be a massive gap between the GEMS & THORS in the long term, but IMHO its just plain common sense to trust German electronics over the Brit stuff. Even though they were exported 'en masse', I really don't think the poms gave much care to anything other than what would happen in their own back yard. The Lucas stuff isn't generally happy living with heat in the longer term and I've even read somewhere here there's a P38A HEVAC setting that doesn't know how to recognise more than 40 degrees celcius... It's weird, but evidence is that I swear my '95 always comes alive and goes a whole lot nicer during Melbourne winters!

Sorry if any of this seems too 'suck eggs' stuff, I'm just getting some of my own P38A therapy writing about it all!

Dave & 'the pretty pig'

P.S. When you do end up with the right one for you, look and ask here before spending your hard earned. There is generally very, very good DIY, troubleshooting and cost saving advice on the AULRO P38A Range Rover page. And, it sounds really silly, but it also seems to me that its sensible to have access to a decent second vehicle with P38A's just so you don't have to rush to complete unforeseen repairs. Just being able to take the time to source and ship a part from the UK can save 100's and 1000's of $'s.

[Grumbles]

[QUOTE=DT-P38;1267343]

Save a little cash if you can for:

That is great advice DT-P38. Excellent! :D

There is only one matter you raised which I would change and that is to make it absolutely essential to -

1 -rod the radiator rather than a simple flush.

2 -replace the water pump and the viscous cooling fan coupling.

These vehicles are getting older now and with both age and kilometres precipitating wear and failure any of these failing will end in financial disaster.

I prefer to think of this expenditure as almost guaranteed insurance against any accidental overheating of that oh so sensitive to overheating and then expensive to rebuild V8 [4 or 4.6] with the inevetiable following slipped liner or head gasket which will need attending to.

[Keithy P38]

I went with the later THOR P38. After reading this website and rr.net, I noticed a trend with people complaining about the GEMS RR's. After test driving one of each, that sealed the deal. The 99' onwards P38's seem to ride better on EAS and the traction control being on both axles sold me too - and it works! I recently went on a trip where I was the only one on highway terrain tyres, everyone else had muddies, and my traction control pulled me out of some very sticky situations.

Even on a gravel road from take-off the traction control does its thing, which is what you want for low range driving. The GEMS ones have only rear axle traction control and it seems to need a few k's on board before it kicks in!

If you plan to chip it, then you'll be better off with a GEMS one though, as the Bosch engine management seems harder to tap into than a strippers convention.

As stated above, if you save a few pennies you'll get a reliable one, but you can do some stuff to it once you get it that might make it that little bit more reliable! Here's what I did (and reccommend):

- Once at home, change all the oils and filters. Check tyre pressures, bleed brakes, grease up everything.

- Buy some diagnostic gear so you can DIY repairs and fault find. I have a Faultmate MSV-2, but there are others out there that do the job.

- Monitor the EAS overnight when parked at height and write in your logbook the measurments before and after (you may need to leave the tailgate or a door ajar to do this correctly).

- Fix something that's buggered before it takes something else down with it!! From past experience, if you get an engine light that comes on every now and then, it'll only be a matter of time before it stays on and costs twice as much to repair.

- Stock up on spare bags and get familiar with all the little quirks that come with owning a P38!!

My two cents!!

Keithy

[Hoges]

FWIW: all the above plus the Thor got

- a much improved WABCO brake modulator
- upgraded ZFHP24 gearbox (vs HP22 for GEMS).
- new ignition coils -2 blocks serving 4 cylinders each rather than 4 blocks serving 2 cylinders each for the GEMS. THOR ignition coils are also a LOT less expensive to replace vs those for GEMS.

- much better designed /more reliable Crankshaft Positioning Sensor ...no chance of fouling the ring gear....

- 4 pinion diffs front and rear (later THOR models)

plus a heap of other small stuff which adds up to an allround, more reliable better package

BTW ...when I got mine 3 yrs ago 100k kms on the clock AND the BECM...the (wholesaler) sales bloke ...(yep I found it on the web...) mentioned the THOR upgrade and said what an improvement it was... thought he was guilding the lily until I became a student of RRs and literally pulled it apart like a Meccano set... :angel: now I have the RR virus and ... am discovering all sorts ways to rationalise draining $ from my walllet :(

[Gullible]

OK.
It looks like I'll have to save up a bit more and get a Thor.

Silly question time:
Did all the Thor P38's come with a tow bar as standard?
What is a heavy tow pack?

[Keithy P38]

The towbar was a factory option, however they didnt come standard! My HSE didnt have one when I bought it, i ended up going with a Hayman Reese jobbie!!

The P38's are rated for a 150kg towball download, even though Hayman Reese states that you can put 250kg on theirs... And any P38 will tow 3500kg no worries!

Cheers
Keith

[Scouse]

The towbar was a factory option, however they didnt come standard! The UK towbar didn't meet local ADRs so all the one's fitted here are actually locally made bars. They might have been sold as 'genuine' but they were made here (like a lot of accessories are).

[Junosi]

Are we talking about the 'goose neck' one that was in the styrofoam holder in the wheel well ? If that's Australian made I really wish they'd gone the extra yard and done a hayman reese hitch instead =/

[Scouse]

The goose neck (or sex aid :eek:) towbar was the UK type. I have seen the odd one fitted but they weren't supposed to be.

[Hoges]

Are we talking about the 'goose neck' one that was in the styrofoam holder in the wheel well ? If that's Australian made I really wish they'd gone the extra yard and done a hayman reese hitch instead =/

ahhhh! thankyou :TakeABow: ...one of life's little mysteries solved... the function of the " empty space" in the styrofoam holder ... always wondered as to what attractive bespoke RR tools were meant to be accommodated there but had been pilfered before I became the umptieth owner!

Must admit that no matter how much I try to keep my mind pure and eclectic for solving the " big issues" (like learning to TIG weld) I do find the UK version of a towball a trifle eXXXentric:eek::D

[Junosi]

You know I'd never given it a second thought but now I'm never going to look at my towball the same way :eek:

[Hoges]

discretion being the better part of valour/// I deleted this post

[andrew e]

all 4.6 rangies came with 4hp24 gearbox, and 4.0s came with the 4hp22s.

The thor hse were meant to get the 4 gear front diff, just like the rear, but both the ones i have wrecked (a 2000 hse, and a 2002 hse) had 2 gear front diffs, so it may have been an american rr.net myth.


Andy