Freelander purchase

[Jojo]

Hi all!
I have been offered a Freelander (1998MY), 1.8l petrol, with 180k on the clock, head gasket is probably gone, for a very reasonable amount of money. If it is only the gasket I should be able to sort that out by myself, including the cooling system upgrade. As I am not familiar with this engine (I'm a Diesel man), are there any other issues I need to be aware of? Or with early Freelanders in general?

Cheers and ta for all advice!

[Scouse]

Walk away.






QUICKLY.






NOW.


It could just be the head gasket but chances are that it's dropped a liner or two.

[Ausfree]

Yeah, mate unfortunately FL1 , 1.8Litre petrol motors have a well earned BAD reputation for blown headgaskets and dropped cylinder liners. My suggestion is to walk away unless you want it for a project and are prepared to spend time ( and money) on it!!!:)

[big guy]

Don't walk mate Run Run Run like the wind.

[Ausfree]

Actually mate, when I mentioned a "project" I had this in mind!!!:)

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/freelander/81257-turbo-mazda-freelander.html

[PhilipA]

Funny, I was just thinking about the guy who bought the VM RRC without checking when I read this.

Regards Philip A

[camel_landy]

The head gasket is a symptom, not the cause.

As mentioned before, it's the slipped liners that are the main problem!!

Run like the wind...

[Ace]

But Mark, isnt it the cooling system issue and the poor thermostat placement/design that causes the slipped liners and the head gasket issue, if the cooling system is sorted do the liners still slip?

A little off topic but im curious.

How much are they asking for this freelander?

[Ausfree]

But Mark, isnt it the cooling system issue and the poor thermostat placement/design that causes the slipped liners and the head gasket issue, if the cooling system is sorted do the liners still slip?

A little off topic but im curious.

How much are they asking for this freelander? I am not a mechanic but it seems to me a reasonable question, would the fitting of a Low Level Coolant Alarm avoid these problems???:confused:

[Ace]

I am not a mechanic but it seems to me a reasonable question, would the fitting of a Low Level Coolant Alarm avoid these problems???:confused:

No, its not low coolant that causes the issue, i have spent the whole afternoon reading websites on this issue. The main issue is the position of the thermostat. The whole design is made so that the engine reaches operating temp quicker for short runs, which it does very well. The location of the thermostat is such that there is only the water in the engine circulating, once that is warm the thermostat opens and lets some cold water in and when the temp drops sufficiently the thermostat closes and the cycle starts again. From what I have read there is only about 3L of water in the engines water jacket. So the rest of the water is being cooled in the radiator, when the thermostat opens this cold water rushes into the engine and the hot water is pushed out and through the radiator. This rush of cold water causes thermal shock to the engine, it is this shock that causes the damage. Eventually over time the head gasket goes. Between this period of cold shock the engine can also get slightly hot for a short period of time before the thermostat opens again. This jump from extreme heat to extreme cold is what causes all the problems.

As mentioned in one of the other threads drilling a couple of holes in the thermostat to allow a small amount of coolant to constantly move through the system stops this from happening because the coolant is allowed to be constantly warmed by the engine. This method has a downside however because it takes much longer for the engine to reach operating temp and for the heater to work and it will decrease fuel economy because the engine runs colder for longer, a warm engine is more efficient.

Fitting a remote thermostat appears to be the way to go.

Camel Landy might correct me on a few things but this is the gist of the problem. Other than this i cannot see any reason why the 1.8L engine should not be reliable.

[101RRS]

I am not a mechanic but it seems to me a reasonable question, would the fitting of a Low Level Coolant Alarm avoid these problems???:confused:

No the issue is not low coolant. As I understand it the thermostat is in a position that does not respond to the real temperature of the engine. As a result it can get hot as the thermostat can remain close resulting in heat damage to the engine (slipped liners) and head/gasket then when the thermostat finally realises that the engine is hot it releases the cold water from the radiator to the hot engine causing thermal shock - cracked heads/slipped liners. 1.8s with no thermostat do not have the issues.

Garry

[Ausfree]

Yes, I can understand what you are saying, it seems poor design is the problem!!!:o

[Ace]

Some interesting sites:

HGF (http://www.apttony.co.uk/Servicing/HGF.html)

Cooling system modifications (http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/common_problems/hgf_pages/cooling_system_modifications.htm)

[Ausfree]

No the issue is not low coolant. As I understand it the thermostat is in a position that does not respond to the real temperature of the engine. As a result it can get hot as the thermostat can remain close resulting in heat damage to the engine (slipped liners) and head/gasket then when the thermostat finally realises that the engine is hot it releases the cold water from the radiator to the hot engine causing thermal shock - cracked heads/slipped liners. 1.8s with no thermostat do not have the issues.

Garry So I guess what you do in a warmer climate like Australia is take the Thermostat out on a 1.8 petrol engine??:confused:

[Ace]

So I guess what you do in a warmer climate like Australia is take the Thermostat out on a 1.8 petrol engine??:confused:

it would stop the head gasket and engine failure problem but as i said before this means that the runs cold all of the time and never runs at the correct operating temp, this has an effect on fuel economy and engine life. As mentioned in another thread you can drill holes through the housing to allow a small amount of water to flow through all of the time whilst minimising flow to make the car warm up quicker, this however still has an effect on economy and engine life.

The only other option then is to consider a diferent thermostat set up like the ones in the website i posted.

Matt

[woko]

There is a LR Tech bulletin on this issue and there is a upgraded head gasket steel dowels instead of plastic for head and a upgraded remote thermostat. Bulletin number 0026
These engines do still slip liners after this but is it not as common.
The main fault with all K engines is where the bottom cast liners sit into the alloy block. the liners wear into the block and the liners drop. There was a upgraded design this is why it is not so common on V6 Freelander, But if you look at head gasket failure on early Kia Carnivals (they had KV6) they were as common as K1.8 in freelander. These still drop liners, But not common. Have been told by a Kia mechanic that if liners drop and need to remove liners to get block decked refit liners with Devcon and This stops liner drop.

[Ace]

There is a LR Tech bulletin on this issue and there is a upgraded head gasket steel dowels instead of plastic for head and a upgraded remote thermostat. Bulletin number 0026
These engines do still slip liners after this but is it not as common.
The main fault with all K engines is where the bottom cast liners sit into the alloy block. the liners wear into the block and the liners drop. There was a upgraded design this is why it is not so common on V6 Freelander, But if you look at head gasket failure on early Kia Carnivals (they had KV6) they were as common as K1.8 in freelander. These still drop liners, But not common. Have been told by a Kia mechanic that if liners drop and need to remove liners to get block decked refit liners with Devcon and This stops liner drop.

so the liners will eventually wear down into the block, but with the new thermostat this process is slowed down?

[woko]

so the liners will eventually wear down into the block, but with the new thermostat this process is slowed down?
from what I have seen Yes

[Ace]

from what I have seen Yes

I thought i read somewhere that there is a lip ontop of the liners that prevents it from dropping. Is this not the case, what actually causes the liners to drop then if the thermostat issue is sorted?

[woko]

The step is about half way down. they drop because the liner wears the block. There was a upgrade to to the block which has dropped the rate of wear dramatically. There are a lot of these engines with over 150k on them with no trouble. They will drop but you may wear the rest of the car out first.

[Ace]

The step is about half way down. they drop because the liner wears the block. There was a upgrade to to the block which has dropped the rate of wear dramatically. There are a lot of these engines with over 150k on them with no trouble. They will drop but you may wear the rest of the car out first.

fair enough, thanks.

[Ausfree]

There is a LR Tech bulletin on this issue and there is a upgraded head gasket steel dowels instead of plastic for head and a upgraded remote thermostat. Bulletin number 0026
These engines do still slip liners after this but is it not as common.
The main fault with all K engines is where the bottom cast liners sit into the alloy block. the liners wear into the block and the liners drop. There was a upgraded design this is why it is not so common on V6 Freelander, But if you look at head gasket failure on early Kia Carnivals (they had KV6) they were as common as K1.8 in freelander. These still drop liners, But not common. Have been told by a Kia mechanic that if liners drop and need to remove liners to get block decked refit liners with Devcon and This stops liner drop.
Woko, do you have any theories as to why the Kia version of the KV6 engine gave more problems than the Rover version. I remember the stories from disappointed Kia Carnivale owners about 8 to 10 years ago, on television!!!;)

[Ace]

Woko, do you have any theories as to why the Kia version of the KV6 engine gave more problems than the Rover version. I remember the stories from disappointed Kia Carnivale owners about 8 to 10 years ago, on television!!!;)

i think its fair to say that anyone who buys a kia ends up unhappy.

Maybe its because in the kia it is required to lug alot more weight and stresses the motor more which helps the inevidable failure along.

Matt

[Scouse]

Kia also treated their customers worse than LR did :eek:.
Whereas LR replaced the whole engine under warranty, Kia only replaced the short motor (it could actually have been a bare block with the 2nd hand pistons/crank/rods re-used). They paid for nothing else so the heads went back on untouched & everything else was slapped back on.

This is from an ex-Kia dealership service manager.

[woko]

There was a upgrade to the block done, this is why the K1.8 in Aus had more problems than the V6 as the K1.8 was deleted in Aus (was still sold in UK) after 2000, so we never got the upgraded engine in a new freelander. Upgraded engines were replacements.. I worked on Rover/MG as well and the K1.8 in the MGF had common liner drop where the MGTF didn't. I would say Kia was supplied with old design block.
Rover/MG were worse than Kia, They would repair the old block so the block design were the liners sit is still the same so the fault would reappear. LR always replaced engine with Long motor.

[Ausfree]

Kia also treated their customers worse than LR did :eek:.
Whereas LR replaced the whole engine under warranty, Kia only replaced the short motor (it could actually have been a bare block with the 2nd hand pistons/crank/rods re-used). They paid for nothing else so the heads went back on untouched & everything else was slapped back on.

This is from an ex-Kia dealership service manager. You must have copped a lot of Flack from disgruntled customers, Scouse.:(

[Ace]

I rang bruce davis and had a chat with him about the liners and he said its because they sit higher than the level of the block. Once this is sorted and they are down at the same level they dont drop any further.

[woko]

I rang bruce davis and had a chat with him about the liners and he said its because they sit higher than the level of the block. Once this is sorted and they are down at the same level they dont drop any further.
They drop below the block level. The spec is 0.00mm to 0.075mm above block. It is when they drop below the block height is when they start blowing head gaskets. Tech bulletin 0036 covers this.