How much is enough?

[rmp]

Every time a new model is released the power and torque figures improve. Logically, at some point this has to stop before we get up with F1 cars that have low range. At what point will you say "that's enough grunt for me" ? A recent discussion here about the relative acceleration performance of the D4 and LC200 made me think of it...while the discussion was interesting many would say it is academic as both have plenty of power for the jobs they're tasked with. Or do they? (Treg V10 drivers if there are any here, can wipe the smug look off their faces).

Serious answers please.

[amtravic1]

Depends on the use of the vehicle. A road only vehicle would be great with around 200 kw but a 4wd that is used in low traction situations is better with less power and torque and use gearing to get where it needs to go.

I see it all the time on dirt bikes where average riders with high powered bikes are often stuck on a hill where a rider of similar capabilities on a lower powered machine is able to get traction more easily and gets up the hill.

[rmp]

Purpose is whatever you use the Disco for now.

[Slunnie]

Its also important to realise that because 1 person cant see the value in increased power, it doesn't mean that there isn't value to be had by other people. Power and torque figures are academic for those that don't use them or drive like an old Grandma. The old 1hz from Toyota - I cant believe they kept selling such a dog of an engine!

I'm undecided as to how far it'll go in terms of power output. The interesting thing about it is that they can continue to develop motors with heaps and heaps of power, but because torque is a lot more difficult to find the motors are still drivable. Back in the day a Holden V8 had heaps of power with what was probably 200hp and the mind blowing and lumpy as all hell race cars had about 450hp. These days mums and dads are driving Holden V8's with as much or more power than the old race cars and they are perfectly drivable on the road.

I think that the power outputs will continue to rise as they need to if they are going to keep on top of the competition. I also think that electronic systems such as ETC, ESP etc and power limiting software will be used to make overpowered vehicle more drivable. All of this technology is current and in use.

500hp Discovery - absolutely. Infact today the Range Rover sport can be had in 510hp spec from the factory.

[RichardK]

I have the philosophy that any 4wd I have had has adequate power to do the job therefore my first thoughts when planning an up grade usually go to suspension and tyres...................my vehicles, as I said, have adequate power, its' how you transfer the power available to traction on the ground that counts in my opinion.

Having said that I have still added a bit of extra power to my 4wds that I use as 4wds. The D3 has a remap and I am in the process of installing a Haltech sport 1000 in my RRC but both vehicles have had mods to the tyres and / or the suspension first.

[Graeme]

A good gearbox can play a big role especially for lower powered engines.

BTW, the 3.0's figures aren't listed as an option so I can only say that the next higher one is acceptable.

[ADMIRAL]

The current crop of WRC vehicles are allegedly limited to 300kw. However torque is unlimited, and they have gobs of it. Works for them.

IMHO for a 4WD being used in typical off road scenarios, masses of torque available at low revs is a boon. To me that offers better control of off road situations. In my observation, where ever speed used to overcome lack of traction/momentum, the risk of damage to the suspension or vehicle, and those inside it, rises, sometimes dramatically.

Those involved in driver training will doubtless have an opinion.

[BPTP7270]

In a place with a 110km limit, top speed and for that matter 0 to 100 numbers are a little unimportant to me. What I am astounded at is how relaxed my new D4 2.7 is in delivering the power that it has, in real driving conditions. I have just sold a pajero 3.2 with more power than this, in a lighter vehicle and in comparison it felt like a slug. Like most things performance, it is how the engine, transmission ect uses what it has.

[gghaggis]

It's a difficult question to give a definitive answer to, because not only do different people use their 4WD's for different purposes, but even the same person will use it for a variety of purposes, as the modern 4WD is such a flexible beast, regardless of brand. This wasn't so true of the older pre-2000 model cars.

When I first got a D3, I was more than happy with the power/torque output, having come from a 200 TDI D1. And in terms of off-roading, I'd suspect that with the D3 gearing, it's more than enough for almost all situations. Maybe only the largest of sand dunes would call for more power, and for the very few of us who might be in those situations you could do just as well with a tyre upgrade and lower pressures.

On-road however, I think there's an argument for the increase in power and torque we see for each incoming model. Mid-range acceleration and high torque are critical factor in road safety and vehicle usability, and certainly the newer models provide a greater safety margin in this area - overtaking, up-hill performance etc. Towing is one area where the car needs to be able to perform to the towing limits of the chassis, and that too, benefits from more power and torque.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Disco4SE]

I agree Gordon. I too am happy with the power & torque of the 3.0Lt.
Having said this, I was with my 2005 LC TD as well and ended up doing the exhaust, air, chip etc etc.
Back to the original question of how much is too much?

[CSBrisie]

I'm pretty sure if Landrover had a "M" / "AMG" / "RS" / "R" version I'd be charging down to my dealer begging for a drive.......there, I'm honest.....

I may have just pictured a 6.0L, 375Kw 1100nm TDV12 Disco5 with 8 speed auto and in built ipad.....oh, and one of those new nifty nespresso pod coffee machines built in too......marvellous stuff. :p

... :burnrubber:

[Disco4SE]

Hey don't laugh BlackPerth, you wouldn't be too far off with your predictions

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I'd like to have a go at our 3 ton transporter with 700nm's:cool:

you might still need 6 speeds with that weight,,

but solo?
why do you need a 6 (or more) speed auto with 700nm's on tap?

[Slunnie]

but solo?
why do you need a 6 (or more) speed auto with 700nm's on tap?
It seems like each additional gear is worth 1l/100km.

Also the smoothness is increased.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I dont think it would ever drop out of top:p:p

[WhiteD3]

It's a difficult question to give a definitive answer to, because not only do different people use their 4WD's for different purposes, but even the same person will use it for a variety of purposes, as the modern 4WD is such a flexible beast, regardless of brand.

Personally I'm not interested in increased power/torque as I don't tow. What I do want is a D5 that gets small car economy and a carbon footprint to boot to keep the greenies (I'm one) off my back:) One that I can charge overnight and run on battery for say 100km on a workday would be nice:D

[CSBrisie]

oh good point - I forgot about the electric motor for short runs ;) great idea!!

This whole idea of "more is good" always reminds me of a hilarious sketch by the Comedy Company in the '90's (or was it Vizard's show...anyway)...after Gillette released the 3 blade men's shaver; they stuck 20 blades together and did an advertisement for "the new Gilette 20".... . ..the voice over was sort of "the first blade extracts the hair, the second trims it, the third extracts a little more and then the fourth trims that etc etc (you get the drill) it was very funny and I had to laugh when I saw Gillette / Schick ? introduced 4 blades last year........how far will they go!!!

[Slunnie]

Personally I'm not interested in increased power/torque as I don't tow. What I do want is a D5 that gets small car economy and a carbon footprint to boot to keep the greenies (I'm one) off my back:) One that I can charge overnight and run on battery for say 100km on a workday would be nice:D
Why would you want a car that runs on batteries?

[WhiteD3]

Why would you want a car that runs on batteries?

A whole other thread would be required for that, and its been done to death:)

[rmp]

In a place with a 110km limit, top speed and for that matter 0 to 100 numbers are a little unimportant to me. What I am astounded at is how relaxed my new D4 2.7 is in delivering the power that it has, in real driving conditions. I have just sold a pajero 3.2 with more power than this, in a lighter vehicle and in comparison it felt like a slug. Like most things performance, it is how the engine, transmission ect uses what it has.

That's a good point. One thing I can say for certain is that certain cars feel quicker than others, yet they may actually have exactly the same performance. Some cars like a Vogue are so waftily effortless they seem slow...but the same acceleration in say an Elise and you really know you're moving. Also, pure figures never tell the true story of how well a car can perform, for example the Puma Defender and TD5 Defender both knock out 90Kw. However, after my first Puma driver I christened it the "Defender Sport" such was its relative speed to the TD5.

The Pajero 3.2 is probably quicker than the 2.7 D3 I expect, but it's definitely a lot rougher so it feels like it's working harder.

[rmp]

I'm pretty sure if Landrover had a "M" / "AMG" / "RS" / "R" version I'd be charging down to my dealer begging for a drive.......there, I'm honest.....

I may have just pictured a 6.0L, 375Kw 1100nm TDV12 Disco5 with 8 speed auto and in built ipad.....oh, and one of those new nifty nespresso pod coffee machines built in too......marvellous stuff. :p

... :burnrubber:

That would be the RRS. I deliberately made the poll about the Disco to keep it for everyday work. People may be taking their RRSes to track days and for those situations there is no such thing as too much power.

[rmp]

On-road however, I think there's an argument for the increase in power and torque we see for each incoming model. Mid-range acceleration and high torque are critical factor in road safety and vehicle usability, and certainly the newer models provide a greater safety margin in this area - overtaking, up-hill performance etc. Towing is one area where the car needs to be able to perform to the towing limits of the chassis, and that too, benefits from more power and torque.

Cheers,

Gordon

Sure but even then there must be a top-end limit for you?

[rmp]

It seems like each additional gear is worth 1l/100km.


From 4 to 5 gears maybe 1L, 5-6 possibly, 6-7 can't see it.

Actually another poll could be how many gears do you need. I'm cool with 6 myself. I think 8 is pointless for roadcars.

[gghaggis]

Sure but even then there must be a top-end limit for you?

Yes, I chose the 250/900 option, for the current D4 chassis. I doubt any more would truly be usable without a complete redesign - and min 22" rims :angel:

Cheers,

Gordon

[Slunnie]

Yes, I chose the 250/900 option, for the current D4 chassis. I doubt any more would truly be usable without a complete redesign - and min 22" rims :angel:

Cheers,

Gordon
About 50% profile is as good as it gets for road traction. When the profile goes below this the handling will go off.

[rmp]

Yes, I chose the 250/900 option, for the current D4 chassis. I doubt any more would truly be usable without a complete redesign - and min 22" rims :angel:

Cheers,

Gordon

I also chose that option on the basis the D4 3.0 is great and really I should be happy at 200/700 but I want to be REALLY happy!

Interesting take on the poll, I meant "Discovery" in a wide context of any 2500kg multi-purpose offroader, not this specific chassis, it didn't occur to me that people would consider the chassis a limitation, which of course it is. As an example almost every Japanese ute is chassis not engine limited ;-)