Tdi Replacement engine

[GyroLandy]

I noticed my Tdi using alot of water but could not find a leak no matter where I looked. I then looked at the last place I wanted to... the dipstick. The level is nearly three quarters up the stick so I realized I had found the missing water. I have only run the engine for a short time so would be keen to know where the most likely place for this leak would be and what is the easiest way to find it.

The engine has 300,000+ km on so I'm thinking it may be time to replace the engine. Does anyone know what would be the best replacement. If I can find something with some more power that would be great. I read somewhere that there are rebuilt/used 3.5l turbo diesel engines which one can pick up for a reasonable price. Does anyone know what the options are?

[MinniTheMoocha]

I noticed my Tdi using alot of water but could not find a leak no matter where I looked. I then looked at the last place I wanted to... the dipstick. The level is nearly three quarters up the stick so I realized I had found the missing water. I have only run the engine for a short time so would be keen to know where the most likely place for this leak would be and what is the easiest way to find it.

The engine has 300,000+ km on so I'm thinking it may be time to replace the engine. Does anyone know what would be the best replacement. If I can find something with some more power that would be great. I read somewhere that there are rebuilt/used 3.5l turbo diesel engines which one can pick up for a reasonable price. Does anyone know what the options are?

From the sounds of it you need to replace the head gasket.

I see it you have three options. Rebuild your motor, buy a short motor already rebuilt and just transfer accessories or swap in some other exotic motor.

All comes down to money and time

[GyroLandy]

Thx mate, what type of money (ballpark) are we talking for the different options? I take it for enhanced power only the exotic motor option will provide that?

[MinniTheMoocha]

From the sounds of it you need to replace the head gasket.

I see it you have three options. Rebuild your motor, buy a short motor already rebuilt and just transfer accessories or swap in some other exotic motor.

All comes down to money and time

I am really only guesstimating some others might be able to give accurate pricing.

1. $3500 - 4500 (Rebuild your motor)
2. $4500 - 5500 (Short motor)
3. ?????? (TdV6 :eek:)

[TimNZ]

<snip>

3. ?????? (TdV6 :eek:)

For example:

Defender2 - View topic - My TDV6 Defender challange truck project. (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic1538.html?highlight=tdv6)

[c.h.i.e.f]

exotic motor choice that most will say will start at

1:4bd1/4bd1T
2:if you want power maybe a big v8
3:2.8ltr hse tgv (i think its called..made in brazil)is a 300tdi stroked and different cooling system and VNT turbo....supposedly makes a fair bit of power :D
4:rebuild the engine you have (cost of this will vary depending on how much a rebuild you decide to do) head reco (everything done to it)will cost around the $600 mark give or take a bit ,head gasket aint to dear and as for pistons,rings etc etc cant say how much for them ;) get a compression test maybe???
5:or the tdv6 would be a very good option:D as previosuly stated.

[**Discovery300Tdi**]

Rebuilt my motor for just over 7g's well got someone to do it but both bottom and top ends where done including another turbo (second hand). Was roughly about 2g's just for labour though and with a tweak here and change over parts there she bloody flying now!! Very happy!!!! Easy to get some more power from the 300's so I reckon rebuild it that's if it's not a minor issue with the head gasket.

[Michael2]

If you haven't run it with water for too long, and you haven't overheated it, then let's hope the head is okay.

Remove the head and the sump.

Any cracks on the head? NO - Have it hardness tested ($100).

Any metal in the sump? NO - Check the Big End & Crank Bearings.

If the crank checks OK, then maybe just big end and crank bearings and a head gasket is all you will need.

It will need a couple of oil / filter changes as you flush the system thoroughly.

It may turn out to be an expensive fix, but paying for an assessment may be cheaper than paying for an opinion.

I hope it's just a head gasket.

[GyroLandy]

Thx guys, here's the thing, when I bought this beat up old Landy for $6k up in Byron Bay I knew that the 3 main areas I would need to spend money on 1. The suspension 2. The body 3. The engine and gearbox.

I've done 1 and 2 and half of 3 so the potential spend is not entirely unexpected. If I can do the head etc. for $600 then that seems like a good option but the frustration of an underpowered vehicle which has a fifth gear but no power to use it (doing 80-90 km/h up the F3) would still be there. Is there the option to convert the 2.5 to a 2.8l while still using the same bottom, albeit with a renewal of bearings etc?

This v6 option looks nice but without having any idea what it would cost it seems like it's gonna be expensive.

Where can I find the numbers on the different options to see what the difference in power output is?

I've heard some good and bad of the 4bd1/4bd1T option.

So for now I know I want to keep it diesel and I want a turbo. Other than that, I'm wide open to suggestions. Would the gearbox need to be changed with any of the below options?

[PAT303]

I'd find out abit more before jumping to conclusions.It may just need a headgasket. Pat

[HUE166]

[1. $3500 - 4500 (Rebuild your motor)
2. $4500 - 5500 (Short motor)
3. ?????? (TdV6 :eek:)[/QUOTE]

Is there actually a known conversion kit for the TDV6 from 300tdi in a Defender??

[Bazzle218]

80-90 ks on the f3. Mate I had a stock standard 94 TDI with 300.000 + Ks on the clock with a 5 speed and it would sit on 100-110 all day no worries. Before a dozy female wrote it off i drove from Townsville to Sydney on straight veg oil sitting at an average speed of 11O, With two drivers, in 25 hrs. Once again no problems. I would take it and get a compression test before you start spending big.
Good luck;)

[Michael2]

...

This v6 option looks nice but without having any idea what it would cost it seems like it's gonna be expensive. If you have a $6K vehicle, don't go spending $30K on a TDV6 experiment.

Where can I find the numbers on the different options to see what the difference in power output is? The 2.8HSE motors were $11-$15 landed, then you have to fit it. May as well go and buy a TD5 or PUMA

I've heard some good and bad of the 4bd1/4bd1T option. I know guys here like it, but it's an old engine and I don't know how you'd go with rego fitting an older engine to the car.

So for now I know I want to keep it diesel and I want a turbo. Other than that, I'm wide open to suggestions. Would the gearbox need to be changed with any of the below options?

Get your 300Tdi sorted. Maybe some new injectors would help. Check the turbo hoses for delamination and leaks. It will be your cheapest option by far.

My Defender will also sit on 110kph all day long, and will easily get up to 120kph for overtaking.

[slug_burner]

If your 300 tdi can't get up to 100 km/h then it is sick. Apart from the obvious problems that you are experiencing which cannot be ignored a 300 Tdi is capable of doing highway speed.

Hopefully you will be ok with a head gasket repair, if you get to the stage of taking the head off you should get an indication of wear on the bores. If it is worth doing the head you might want to consider the bottom end as there are some concerns as to the robustness of the bearings.

[GyroLandy]

Thx all,

I am now convinced that keeping the Tdi standard and focussing more on the turbo and other power enhancement option is the way to go.

Does anyone know where I can take the head etc. for machining if required and also a good mechanic that can rebuild this engine if required?

I'm in north west Sydney.

[uninformed]

If your 300 tdi can't get up to 100 km/h then it is sick. Apart from the obvious problems that you are experiencing which cannot be ignored a 300 Tdi is capable of doing highway speed.


unless of coarse your towing a decent trailer on a warm (not hot by outback standards) day on a FLAT road.

I had to sit on 90-95 to keep engine heat at bay heading out to Roma...it wouldnt go much faster than that either....overtaking .......hahahaha yeah right, unless you mean the 3 trailer road trains that passed me like I was in 2nd :(

oh and yes the engine was in good working order, well maintained as was the radiator...it had a 3 inch madrel bent exhaust, larger intercooler and slight up in fueling.

this in a 98 110 trayback

for those that have a tdi defender WITHOUT egt gauge and still running a OEM temp gauge....just because things seem fine doesnt mean they are :mad:

Serg

[uninformed]

Thx all,

I am now convinced that keeping the Tdi standard and focussing more on the turbo and other power enhancement option is the way to go.

Does anyone know where I can take the head etc. for machining if required and also a good mechanic that can rebuild this engine if required?

I'm in north west Sydney.

if you are going this route: you will obviously have a budget, make sure you allow for some of that going to upgrading the cooling and intercooling system....in stock form on a stock 300tdi they are marginal at best

Serg

[DRanged]

Here is another option
Land Rover /Range Rover ISUZU 2.8 Turbo Conversion Kit - eBay 4x4 Accessories, Exterior, Car Parts, Accessories, Cars, Bikes, Boats. (end time 23-Jun-10 08:56:00 AEST) (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Land-Rover-Range-Rover-ISUZU-2-8-Turbo-Conversion-Kit-/160444570225?cmd=ViewItem&pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item255b3dda71)

Stronger easy to tweak with Intercooler etc, more low end torque.

Justin

[Ace]

Its a bit out of the way but take the head to Bruce Davis on Annangrove Road, he helped me out with my engine, he sorted he head and fitted new everything to it. I cant remember how much the head alone cost though.

I would get him to look at your injector pump if you want some more grunt, he can do one of his tweeks and give you a nice jump in power, costs about $800 or an exchange injector pump with the tweek done was $1200, but this was back in feb 08.

He can then do a manifold and turbo mod that works with the injector pump mod for a further $2000 which gives the engine a nice amount of power.

Matt

[Disco_owner]

exotic motor choice that most will say will start at

1:4bd1/4bd1T
2:if you want power maybe a big v8
3:2.8ltr hse tgv (i think its called..made in brazil)is a 300tdi stroked and different cooling system and VNT turbo....supposedly makes a fair bit of power :D
4:rebuild the engine you have (cost of this will vary depending on how much a rebuild you decide to do) head reco (everything done to it)will cost around the $600 mark give or take a bit ,head gasket aint to dear and as for pistons,rings etc etc cant say how much for them ;) get a compression test maybe???
5:or the tdv6 would be a very good option:D as previosuly stated.

I believe These engines are no longer available , look on their website .;)

[GyroLandy]

Ok, I've done some more research and this is what I came up with:

1. 2.5l to 2.8l Conversion kit including crank, piston, conrods, rings, head gasket etc. for $1,800 from M&D in the UK
2. Have the cylinders bored to fit the $2.8l as per specs from M&D - Does anyone know where I can have this done in Sydney? Presume this will be less than $1,000
3. M&D does a power conversion on teh head, turbo accentuator and fuel pump. According to them the upgrade accentuator provides more or less teh same as teh variable nozzle turbo found on the 2.8l TGV and fits a standard Tdi turbo. They charge a surchage but refund it once tehy receive the existing head - $1,200.
4. Have my exiting turbo redone - Does anyone know how much that will cost and who can do this? I thought thsi was in teh region of $1,000
5. Shipping cost to and from the UK - $500
6. Incidentals of $500
7. Are there any costs (excl. labor) which I have not factored in?

So the total is $6,000 excluding the labour cost which brings me back to the question... can I do this myself? I have re-done every suspension part of the vehicle and have rebuilt a motorcycle engine before so what are the odds of stuffing this up. Is there someone that can check it beofre I start it up to give me an opinion as to whether I have done something wrong.

So if I do it myself, I pay $6k for a 2.8l engine while retaining the original engine as a base and have a new turbo with higher capabilities and fuel pump.

There might still be new injectors required which can be done as and when funds are available.

Am I missing something here or is the above a good option that gets me the increased power?

[roverrescue]

Gyro,
I know the lines you are thinking along.
My situation is a little easier as it concerns a second block... ie I dont have off the road time constraints.

The 300 block I am doing up was dusted in its former life and all bores were shot.
I tossed up the 2.8 stroker kit but in consultation with a few people (Bush65 very helpful) decided that rather than minimal extra cubic capacity a VNT would give a more tractible engine. Cost wise not much in it, especially if you are thinking of spending money on the turbo.

I also had concerns with over boring the block 80 thou (specs for MD 2.8 kit) despite being told they have had no problems?

If I had needed to replace the crank I would have gone the MD stroker for sure...

Anyways, my engine work was done in Cairns, but I have had the block cleaned and match bored to a set of 40thou pistons. Crank ground to 20thou big ends, linished the mains (as a side note, on a poorly cared for dusted block the big ends were flogged but mains okay - this backs up what Rick130 has been saying for a whiles!) New camshaft bearings. All up got change from $600.

So now I wait till the AUD comes up against the pound and will then get in the allisport VNT kit, a new head plus plus plus. Then I change the radiator and fit a bigger IC...

Project end date who knows! But thats the plan.

S

[rick130]

[snip]
I also had concerns with over boring the block 80 thou (specs for MD 2.8 kit) despite being told they have had no problems?


[snip]
S

You had the same concern as I did ;)
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/94870-engine-swap-300tdi-isuzu-4bd1-2.html#post1275252
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/94870-engine-swap-300tdi-isuzu-4bd1-3.html

[roverrescue]

yeah saw that thread... was going to reply that you can get 1.0mm (40thou) OS pistons for a 300tdi as the largest over bore. The 2.8 stroker requires you to double that out to 80thou!
Deep down I would like to put a rattly zoozoo in the 130 but I have a whole corner of the shed dedicated to 300tdi bits and feel I should use them up!

S

[uninformed]

spending $6k on something that has already failed once and are you adressing that problem.....along with the others that exsist in that engine/ vehicle???

dont forget to add to that list a new rad core and a new temp gauge, plus an egt gauge if you dont have one.

oh and if your going to spend that coin on the donk you may as well get it to breathe right and put a proper intercooler in + hoses

all these things MAY work out in colder climates, but In QLD and put it to work will only result in tears :(

[rick130]

yeah saw that thread... was going to reply that you can get 1.0mm (40thou) OS pistons for a 300tdi as the largest over bore. The 2.8 stroker requires you to double that out to 80thou!
Deep down I would like to put a rattly zoozoo in the 130 but I have a whole corner of the shed dedicated to 300tdi bits and feel I should use them up!

S

Aftermarket pistons ?

RAVE only lists 10 thou and 20 thou as the only two OS sizes ?

Standard 90.395mm
First OS 90.649mm
Second OS 90.903mm

[roverrescue]

Yeah,
German made (cant remember brand name)
Engine builder who matches the pots to the pistons was very happy with tolerances.
He knew the brand and said they are the right stuff?

The reason we went 40 thou was number 3 and 4 pots were worn out past 20 and smooth as glass. Engine still ran okay, just used ole!

Can get brand / part number if needed.

S

[uninformed]

would it be MAHLE?

Serg

[slug_burner]

80 thou, approx 2mm, only 1mm off the cylinder wall. I'd like to think that there was more cylinder wall thickness than 2-4 mm. You would have to have a bad casting to be so unlucky.

Do 300 tdi's have liners? I guess not!

[roverrescue]

No liners in a 300 - cast block.

MD told me they have sold "lots" of 2.8 kits with no reported overbore faults.

Each to their own... With stock turbo / fueling will the extra stroke make an appreciable difference? I choose to spend $ on the induction side...
but, if the crank had been toast I would have gone for the 2.8 stroker?

S

[rick130]

Yeah,
German made (cant remember brand name)
Engine builder who matches the pots to the pistons was very happy with tolerances.
He knew the brand and said they are the right stuff?

The reason we went 40 thou was number 3 and 4 pots were worn out past 20 and smooth as glass. Engine still ran okay, just used ole!

Can get brand / part number if needed.

S


would it be MAHLE?

Serg

Kolbenshmidt I think. IIRC they make the OE ones.

[rick130]

80 thou, approx 2mm, only 1mm off the cylinder wall. I'd like to think that there was more cylinder wall thickness than 2-4 mm. You would have to have a bad casting to be so unlucky.

Do 300 tdi's have liners? I guess not!

Well, you need a certain amount of wall thickness to maintain integrity and trueness under temperature and cylinder pressures, (bores go out of round pretty easily, it's why race engines are honed with a torque plate to simulate the head being bolted down)

Add to that core shift (not unheard of in Tdi's, Serg has seen a few examples at a well known Land Rover specialist) and i'd be testing a block for wall thickness before boring, particular that far. (which i wouldn't do anyway, and I'm the bloke that used to run 0W-5 engine oil at only 35psi/6500 RPM in race engines, so it's not like I haven't pushed the limits before)

Oh, and we are talking about overboring 2.5mm, that's 100thou.....
Not for this little Black Duck......

[GyroLandy]

The reason I was looking at doing the 2.8l conversion is due to the cost being roughly the same as rebuilding the 2,5l.

I still have 2 outstanding question which nobody has answered. Please provide an answer on:

1. Who in the Sydney area does engineering on Tdi's including rebore
2. What are the chances of me doing the rebuild myself

Please let me know.

Has anyonr done a VNT on a stock Tdi and if so what was the result.

Thx to everyone who has posted replies.

[roverrescue]

Lets look at this... just the bits that go up-n-down-round-n-round...

The cost of gietting the 2.8 kit in will really only be similar if you need a new crank and or rods.

If your crank and rods are good, to rebuild the 2.5 will only cost:
1/ bore/hone of the pots
2/ new pistons
3/ crank linish / grind
4/ block clean/ welsh plugs
5/ cam linish with new bearings
6/ new main & bigend bearings

All apart from 2,3 &6 you would need to do for the conversion.
The above machine work cost about ~$500 in Cairns at the only engine workshop in town. Im sure in Sydney someone will know a reputable machine shop that can do it for that sort of price. The new bits 2,5 & 6 will cost a whole lot less than a $2800 kit.

In regards to doing it yourself. The tdi really is a pretty simple engine. Everyone has to have a first! Get the 300tdi engine overhaul manual and go for it (can email it if you want) and the uk website difflock has some good info...

In regards to 300tdi VNT there are numerous threads.
XrayXray installed the Allisport VNT kit
Jock has installed the MD VNT kit
and Bush65 is experienced, knowledgable and helpful in regards to VNTs...

cya
Steve

[GyroLandy]

Thx Steve, you have convinced me to have a go.

I would appreciate it if you could send me the engine overhaul manual. Are the engine bits sold from aftermarket retailers in Sydney the same quality as original LR part?


It sounds like the real power increase comes from the VNT etc rather than the 2.8l conversion.

I assume due to wear and tear I would have to fit slightly oversize pistons, is that correct?

[slug_burner]

Yes the need for what oversize will be determined by how much wear there is and how much they have to take the bores out by. May need to get the machine shop to tell you what oversize you will need.

The quality of parts is generally safe if you buy original. As LR probably don't make their own pistons and rings it might be a case of getting the bits from the original equipment supplier. Following up one of the manufacturers named earlier in this thread KOLBENSCHMIDT, they have agents in Sydney:

BT Oceania Pty Ltd (http://www.ms-motor-service.com/content2.asp?area=hauptmenue&site=haendlersuche&cls=02&changelang=02&land=Australia&kontinent=3)

Street 33 Mill Drive
City North Rocks, NSW
2151


They do the pistons, rings and water pump for the 300 tdi.

I have never used their parts nor do I have any association with them. I suspect that there are other suppliers better known to the LR community in Sydney.

[uninformed]

at the very least also allow for:

a new HD rad core,
new aftermarket temp gauge, somthing with actual degrees on it not just hot or cold
decent exhaust
egt gauge if you dont have one already
vent engine bay

if you can, new larger intercooler

Serg

[GyroLandy]

What is the HD rad core you are referring to? Is this the radiator core? I replaced the radiator 5,000km ago.

engineering shops in Sydney???

[uninformed]

What is the HD rad core you are referring to? Is this the radiator core? I replaced the radiator 5,000km ago.

engineering shops in Sydney???

Yes Radiator core.....and even though youve replaced it 5000km ago id still get it rodded out....no point doing all that good work to be let down by something simple....that applys throught out for the engine/cooling/intercooling/filtering and lubrictation