Puma Transfer casefree play

[Brid]

G'day all

I've had concerns with the transfer case in my 2007 puma since about 20,000kms & have logged several complaints under warranty...last one at 99,000kms. Southside LR dealer reckons it's OK. MR Automotive reckon it's OK! But I don't, and am doing battle over it now. Here's the problem...

With the vehicle parked up on the flat, hand brake OFF, centre diff LOCKED & in NEUTRAL & observe the free play between the front and rear output shafts of the transfer. You can rotate one propshaft through about 50 degrees until it takes up enough slack to move the other propshaft!!!

So my question is: "What amount of play here is acceptable??" I'd have thought it would be pretty minor eg 5-10 degrees rotation max...but 50 deg?????

To be somewhat fair to the dealer if the main transmission is in gear (rather than neutral) there is not much free play...they just failed to isolate the transfer properly to test for this, in my opinion.

As per some earlier posts on this, it has always run hot, can make some terrible noises under certain off road conditions & analysis of the oil has shown extremely high wear to bronze components & high wear to gears. Also some large 2-3mm metal on the drain plug.

I would appreciate any comment from the LR mechanics amongst you, as well as comparison of anyone else's puma please, as I have a bit of a job to get LR to do anything. I'm now out of warranty, but this issue was logged within the warranty period.

Cheers
Brid

[one_iota]

Here is mine:

The chalk lines on the hand brake drum show the free play on the rear driveshaft following your instructions.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/06/586.jpg

The free play on the front is about the same. Way less than five degrees I reckon.

[Brid]

Thanks Mahn

That's what I'd hope or expect it to be.

By comparison, my chalk lines were 120mm apart!!!

Could you hazzard a guess what might be responsible for such a large amount of play?

regards
Brid

[justinc]

G'day all

I've had concerns with the transfer case in my 2007 puma since about 20,000kms & have logged several complaints under warranty...last one at 99,000kms. Southside LR dealer reckons it's OK. MR Automotive reckon it's OK! But I don't, and am doing battle over it now. Here's the problem...

With the vehicle parked up on the flat, hand brake OFF, centre diff LOCKED & in NEUTRAL & observe the free play between the front and rear output shafts of the transfer. You can rotate one propshaft through about 50 degrees until it takes up enough slack to move the other propshaft!!!

So my question is: "What amount of play here is acceptable??" I'd have thought it would be pretty minor eg 5-10 degrees rotation max...but 50 deg?????

To be somewhat fair to the dealer if the main transmission is in gear (rather than neutral) there is not much free play...they just failed to isolate the transfer properly to test for this, in my opinion.

As per some earlier posts on this, it has always run hot, can make some terrible noises under certain off road conditions & analysis of the oil has shown extremely high wear to bronze components & high wear to gears. Also some large 2-3mm metal on the drain plug.

I would appreciate any comment from the LR mechanics amongst you, as well as comparison of anyone else's puma please, as I have a bit of a job to get LR to do anything. I'm now out of warranty, but this issue was logged within the warranty period.

Cheers
Brid

Brid,

Visible Bronze particls and metal bits are NOT acceptable for a 20,000km vehicle. I would hazard a guess and say yes, centre differential is suspect. BUT, MR have already looked didn't you say??? If so, then at their OK I would be happy, as they know their stuff. Did you tell Warren etc about the oil analysis findings? Maybe if not you can get them to take another look, maybe drop the bottom cover off aswell? I have one to look at soon, and I'll be dropping the oil and cover off to have a good squiz, as it is approaching warranty end and there has been many noises etc with it :(

JC

[Brid]

Thanks Justin
No, the vehicle has now done over 100,000km. My earliest warranty complaints go back to 20,000km, and have continued since then. I have been unsuccessful in getting a warranty resolution.

I had the oil analysed after MR looked at it, and noted the oil was contaminated. (I copied Southside LR with the report, a sample of oil and wear particles as well as photos of the magnetic plug. This information was totally ignored by them! They suggested the play was not abnormal as it still drove OK on a road test...not happy!)

I was under the hoist when MR examined it, and they were happy with the amount of play, however, I don't think the main box was in neutral, so it didn't isolate the transfer case to reveal the full extent of the play. Once again, there doesn't seem to be any problem with drive ability on road.

I'm sure there is a problem, but I was starting to doubt myself a little, until Mahn report such minor free play..I'd be wrapt if mine was like that!

Thanks
brid

[justinc]

Thanks Justin
No, the vehicle has now done over 100,000km. My earliest warranty complaints go back to 20,000km, and have continued since then. I have been unsuccessful in getting a warranty resolution.

I had the oil analysed after MR looked at it, and noted the oil was contaminated. (I copied Southside LR with the report, a sample of oil and wear particles as well as photos of the magnetic plug. This information was totally ignored by them! They suggested the play was not abnormal as it still drove OK on a road test...not happy!)

I was under the hoist when MR examined it, and they were happy with the amount of play, however, I don't think the main box was in neutral, so it didn't isolate the transfer case to reveal the full extent of the play. Once again, there doesn't seem to be any problem with drive ability on road.

I'm sure there is a problem, but I was starting to doubt myself a little, until Mahn report such minor free play..I'd be wrapt if mine was like that!

Thanks
brid

RE the road test, it is quite difficult to engender the clunking and excessive play in some due to the 'soft' throttle application, but it can be done. I would say that you shoulld be removing the bottom cover and checking for bronze 'bits' etc, as if the centre diff thrusts are disintegrating that where it'll be. It'll only cost 3 litres of 80w90 gear oil, some sealant and less than an hour from start to stop.

JC

[Brid]

Yes..good idea, Justin

I may have to get Southside LR to do that, as they have to see something for themselves to act on warranty. I've tried supplying information external to their resources, but they insist they've got so witness something themselves to justify a replacement part, in case Land Rover pick up something in an audit later on.

Regards
Brid

[scarry]

Have you tried Austral in the Valley?
Just another thought if your not happy with Southside.MR are usually excellent,looks like you are stuck between a rock & a hard place:(

Good luck

[Brid]

Hi Scarry

I haven't tried Austral, although it's the same owner as Southside I believe. I must say that Southside do try, and have good intentions, but I don't think their expertise is as good as independent LR specialists, like MR, who are one of the best.

I'll have another crack at Southside first & speak direct to the workshop manager. I'm not convinced he was actually directed to the oil report, & wear metals by the customer service man, so if I ask him to comment on the wear metal levels & he can't answer I'll want to know why. I would also like to know what he believes is acceptable backlash between output shafts, before I tell him how much mine is.

If that approach fails...I don't know what I'll do...either get it fixed by MR, wait to see the next oil sample report, or go to small claims. I'd be pretty peeved if I get nowhere on this attempt, as it's officially out of warranty, although the complaint is ongoing from warranty.

Cheers
Brid

[Gav110]

Brid, I have just come back from a trip to Melbourne - first miles on a new Puma. I have significant rattling and gear noises, evident when in high range - predominately when changing 1-2-3, but also when stepping off the accelerator in 5th or 6th.

When I described my 'symptoms' to the dealer (Alto, Sydney) over the phone, their preliminary diagnosis was "freeplay in the transfer case". Sounds positive so far - I have it booked in in 2 weeks so hopefully they will be as helpful then...

Will advise.

[one_iota]

<snip>

Could you hazzard a guess what might be responsible for such a large amount of play?



I've never explored the innards of a transfer case...however with that amount of play I'm surprised that the vehicle is capable of motion :eek:

It seems that the transfer case would make a good coffee grinder ;)

Good luck.

[TimNZ]

Hi Bird, it sounds like you are checking the amount of freeplay of the center diff lock?
ie. if have you:
Jacked up one front wheel (so the front diff, axle's etc are taken out of the equation,
Applied the handbrake to effectively lock the rear transfer box output flange,
Put the main gear box in neutral,
Then turned the front prop shaft to see how much rotation you have, there will be quite a lot, >45deg.
All you are checking here is the locking device of the center diff.

Checking the center diff freeplay is very difficult unless you pull it out.

However if you have all wheels on the ground (with the hand brake off), the diffs in the front or rear axle (depending on the prop you are swinging on) should stop the prop shaft rotating well before 45deg.

I'd be more worried about the steel you have found in the oil! My guess is that bronze is most likely from the "thrust" washers behind the gears in the center diff assembly. When I pulled the transfer box in my county apart 3 of them had gone completely.

Cheers,

EDIT: I've just re-read you post, if you are checking the prop movement with the wheels on the ground, and you are getting that much rotation, I'd be checking out your diff's, drive flanges, axles etc.

[Brid]

Hi Tim

Yes that is with a wheel lifted, so that I'm not just measuring diff play...sorry if I omitted that important bit.

Brid

[TimNZ]

Hi Bird, there is heaps of play in the center diff locking device, similar to what you are describing. I'd still push LR to pull the inspection plate off the transfer box so you can have a good look around. I had a similar concern with a diff, I offered to pay for the oil and the mechanics time if the oil came out nice an clean.

[TimNZ]

If you watch "A 4x4 is Born" when Mark goes to Aschrofts you can see the play in the center diff locking device when Dave Aschroft explains how it all works.

[one_iota]

Hi Tim

Yes that is with a wheel lifted, so that I'm not just measuring diff play...sorry if I omitted that important bit.

Brid

I'll jack up a wheel and see what happens....might be the next weekend though.

[ashtrans]

If you watch "A 4x4 is Born" when Mark goes to Aschrofts you can see the play in the center diff locking device when Dave Aschroft explains how it all works.

My 15 mins of fame !!!!!

[dullbird]

some how I think your a little more famous then 15mins ;)..for a start your already internationally famous:D

[pc3]

Where can this dvd be aquired ?? Id like to have a look at a program which illustrates the history of the Defender's etc.

[Brid]

Just to update again...

I spoke with Dwayne from MR Automotive, who also expressed concern about the high bronze, suggesting it was most likely from centre diff thrust washers.

He advised me to talk to Austral Land Rover as he had close contact with people there. I did this and found them most helpful. They asked for the oil reports, photos of magnet plug wear metals, and asked if any oil was kept aside (and I have some) in case they wanted to run an independent analysis.

I was heartened by his response and feel like I've made some headway.

Thanks for everyone's suggestions.

Brid

[TimNZ]

Where can this dvd be aquired ?? Id like to have a look at a program which illustrates the history of the Defender's etc.


Hi pc3, I got my one from here:

A 4x4 is Born DVD - 3.5 L V8 Off-Roader (http://www.pitstop.net.au/view/4wd-off-road/page/query/plu/15385/)

Cheers,

[one_iota]

I'll jack up a wheel and see what happens....might be the next weekend though.


With a rear wheel jacked up the measurement is 125 mm of brake drum circumference.