Puma Clutch Death Rattle Again

[Allan]

Wife drove the Puma home from work tonight and to my I horror heard the clutch death rattle when she turned the engine of. Just as terminal on restart. This is the second time the clutch has had a terminal illness, even though a modified clutch was fitted 6 months ago. So what can you do, of to the guy's at Alf's workshop Thursday for a fix. Wouldn't you think after 60 years of building these things Land Rover could build a propper clutch, its not brain surgery. The thing only has a 2.4 litre engine after all and is not that fat. If Toyota or Poo-trole can do it or, for gods sake, the compony that built the engine and trans, F250, why not Land Rover. My SVX has only done 19000km since new and I treat it like a fine women. I am concerned as to what happens if I treat it like ****. I am looking closely at selling it and buying another TD5 or a Toyota as the thing is just not reliable. I am fitting it out at the moment for 6-8 weeks up the top end and need it to be reliable The other halfs 90 TD5 has been a pleasure to own thus far and I am now starting to see where TD5 owners are comming from.:mad::mad::mad::mad: and again:mad::mad:



Allan

[lardy]

That is bloody sad Allan as it is your pride and joy ...rightly so it is a beauty.
Why do companies knock out product half cocked with the idea that the issues can be sorted as you go along ....it's almost like buying computer software only very much a more expensive undertaking.

I hope you get a positive result from barbidoll land rover matey.

[stig0000]

im sorry to say that they will fit another clutch and in 8,000ks ish it will happen again,

land rover didn't make the clutch,, ford did:mad:,

and trust me your not the only puma owner thinking the same:mad:
we have defenders that are on there 3rd clutch in 40k,

you will be doing your self a favour going to another td5, and since you own both, i think you no witch car you'd rather trust;)

[amtravic1]

Nissan have had lots of trouble with clutches as well. I read other makes forums regularly and clutch problems are very common. The difference is Nissan seem very reluctant to warranty the clutches and try to blame the failures on bad driving habits.

All the jap makes are having problems with the common rail engines if you can believe what you read on other sites so it is not just Land Rover that is having problems.

[crl]

How the heck can this happen? These engines (and presumably clutches) have been running around in Ford Transit vans for years, surely the bugs would be ironed out?

[Scallops]

I'm near to selling mine too. Once the rose coloured glasses fade a bit, one can make a more balanced judgment on these vehicles. :(

[justinc]

not very encouraging news Alan, sorry to hear.

Yes, Nissan have had plenty of clutch issues, I have a 3litre GU on the hoist at present with a destroyed dual mass flywheel, and a Pathfinder 2.5 the year before - same problem and not cheap to rectify either :(.

On another note, got a satphone call from a '08 Puma owner near Bamaga who seems to have a front diff or CV fail, at 15K old. This is in my opinion unacceptable for a Defender.

Hope things improve:mad:

JC

[pc3]

Does it happen after motor is completely shut down ?

I get 5 taps after motor is finished, I posted about it on another thread and apparently its the EGR valve self cleaning ? I did not notice sound prior to parking ina "echoey garage"

[Allan]

Does it happen after motor is completely shut down ?

I get 5 taps after motor is finished, I posted about it on another thread and apparently its the EGR valve self cleaning ? I did not notice sound prior to parking ina "echoey garage"

Thanks all, no its a very loud rattle on both start and shut down that is not evident with the clutch depressed. I also question if Ford Transits have this issue. They are for sure given more hard time than my Puma.

Allan

[TimNZ]

Hi Allan, My 110 is on it's 3rd clutch, when the dealer fitted it they told me it was a 3rd generation one, (I do, however, take what they tell me with a grain of salt). On a brighter note I have done over 50,000k's on it, with no sign of the "death rattle", so perhaps they have sorted the problems.

Cheers,

[Allan]

Hi Allan, My 110 is on it's 3rd clutch, when the dealer fitted it they told me it was a 3rd generation one, (I do, however, take what they tell me with a grain of salt). On a brighter note I have done over 50,000k's on it, with no sign of the "death rattle", so perhaps they have sorted the problems.

Cheers,
Thanks Tim, do you or anyone else know if the rattle is from the pressure plate or the clutch plate centre springs. Glad to hear your clutch seems to be cured, I can hold out hope for mine

Allan

[dullbird]

in all honesty Allan if the clutch is all you have to worry about your on a winner...

perhaps you should fly over to Sydney and come and drive a real bag of ****;)..I wish I only had a clutch to worry about

[Allan]

in all honesty Allan if the clutch is all you have to worry about your on a winner...

perhaps you should fly over to Sydney and come and drive a real bag of ****;)..I wish I only had a clutch to worry about

I would have to fly, or drive the 90, as I don' think the Puma would last the distance :twisted:

Allan

[dullbird]

I would have to fly, or drive the 90, as I don' think the Puma would last the distance :twisted:

Allan


my thoughts exactly:D

[incisor]

really and truly is time "effective" lemon laws were introduced

the fact that at least 3 big players in the market space are having this level of difficulty getting something reliable to the pavement definitely is a worrying trend and must constitute an abuse of market power.

glad i didn't sell my soul to get one like i was contemplating.

[dullbird]

Dave there are many out there that are going strong without problems...unfortunately there are also some out there like mine well, I will let you make up the rest of the story.

I am however strongly convinced that when the troubles are fixed it will be an awesome car and will go on for a long time...

and for everyone that slags off the ford engine.....its not the engine that is giving everyone dramas...in fact since my faulty engine was replaced it has been the most reliable thing on the car (touch wood :bangin: :D)

[justinc]

Dave there are many out there that are going strong without problems...unfortunately there are also some out there like mine well, I will let you make up the rest of the story.

I am however strongly convinced that when the troubles are fixed it will be an awesome car and will go on for a long time...
and for everyone that slags off the ford engine.....its not the engine that is giving everyone dramas...in fact since my faulty engine was replaced it has been the most reliable thing on the car (touch wood :bangin: :D)

Agree DB, every time I drive one I want one:D:(

JC

[pc3]

Agree DB, every time I drive one I want one:D:(

JC

Its sad really...............as these PUMAS if there is no issues are THAT good to drive. I have had a New Triton Dual cab for work these past couple of days.....did 500 kms aprox in it. Its not a patch on the PUMA 130 dual cab as far as comfort and ride goes, the Defenders really are nice for your back !!

I will say the Triton motor goes like the clappers. BUT it felt cheap, the dash is not as attractive, it has HEAPS of rattles and squeaks (49,000km on the clock)

It does not feel as HEAVY DUTY as the PUMA feels, lots of knick knacks and buttons etc. but it felt kind of loose to drive.

Also it really was a boreing car to drive, and does not feel like a 4x4 at all.

Point I am getting too is the new PUMA Defender is a GREAT concept, correct mix of modern ammentities and offroad capabilities, its a shame about the execution. Just hope I dont get too many dramas with mine, I dont want to send it down the river cause I love it.................but it needs to be reliable !!

[Allan]

Dave there are many out there that are going strong without problems...unfortunately there are also some out there like mine well, I will let you make up the rest of the story.

I am however strongly convinced that when the troubles are fixed it will be an awesome car and will go on for a long time...

and for everyone that slags off the ford engine.....its not the engine that is giving everyone dramas...in fact since my faulty engine was replaced it has been the most reliable thing on the car (touch wood :bangin: :D)

I don't have a problem with the engine, goes very well pulls hard and considering its pushing 1 and 2/3 very large house bricks through the air, very light on fuel. I still can't work out why their is a clutch/gearbox problem on a powetrain combination used in a Transit van, a vehicle with a good reputation. I have no other issues with the Puma, its a Defender, they all have had Monday build issues. But saying that this is the only Land Rover to need 3 clutches I have ever owned and its only done 19000km"s in 18 months

Allan

[TimNZ]

Thanks Tim, do you or anyone else know if the rattle is from the pressure plate or the clutch plate centre springs. Glad to hear your clutch seems to be cured, I can hold out hope for mine

Allan


Hi Allan, in both cases it was the anti-rattle springs in the clutch plate. (Kind of ironic since the anti-rattle springs caused the rattle). They were so loose you could have pushed them out of the clutch plate with your thumb.

The dealer even said they couldn't accuse me of being hard on the clutch, as there was no signs of wear on the pressure plate, friction material, or the flywheel. If they are going to change your clutch, see if you can convince them to do the thrust bearing at the same time, since you've had so much trouble, etc, etc :)

Cheers,

[Scallops]

Allan,

I can add that, when my clutch was recently replaced (about 6 weeks ago), I was told this was the new "3rd generation" version. So hopefully another new one might be the fix. I know what you're going through - but as dullbird says - if that is the only issue, you're probably OK! :blink:

Good luck with it all, mate.

Dan.

[stig0000]

i remember the first puma clutch i fitted and i looked at the new plate and noted how loose the springs were, this was the 'new' plate as well, sure enough 5months later,


rattle rattle rattle:mad:

iv also noted how much drive line slack there is on pumas, my td5 with 118k and off road use, and its got no were near as much play as most pumas

the worst bit is that its NORMAL play, wev had alot customers complain of clunks and slack but compere it to a new and used defender its the same:mad:,

ford have really killed the defender, and as others said, the 'concept' was good,

only if:angel:

[justinc]

i remember the first puma clutch i fitted and i looked at the new plate and noted how loose the springs were, this was the 'new' plate as well, sure enough 5months later,


rattle rattle rattle:mad:

iv also noted how much drive line slack there is on pumas, my td5 with 118k and off road use, and its got no were near as much play as most pumas

the worst bit is that its NORMAL play, wev had alot customers complain of clunks and slack but compere it to a new and used defender its the same:mad:,

ford have really killed the defender, and as others said, the 'concept' was good,

only if:angel:

Hallelujah!!!:D:D Someone else who can vouch for a Td5 Vs Puma trans comparison!!! I am also of the same opinion!

JC

[Brid]

Interesting comments from both Justinc & Stig0000, regarding transfer slop...

I have tried to make the same point to the dealers, believing my puma was defective with XS slop compared to my 2005 Td5.

Do either of you bloke have any idea what is causing the extra slop? Is there some way it could be shimmed up a bit or modified?

Mine has just gone out of warranty now, so at some stage I might look at a proper rectification.

Brid

[stig0000]

well, even tho they are the 'same' transfer box, i really do believe after looking in both that the puma is a massive cut cost job,

how many lt230 have you herd of simply shear the out put shaft from the center diff, or twist the out put shaft, be so out of balance that the hand brake drum grabs the shoes with the pads adjusted right out, i have seen all them and more, and all on pumas, never had a problem with anything before the puma, and they havent been flogged, there standard pumas on standard tyres,

its just so hard for us to tell a customer that there car is normal, but it is, live with it;);)

as for shimming as we've never done that i cant comment on that

we have replaced both diffs transfer/ gear boxes/ a frames/ bushes, and, still ,, there is a drive line slack/clunk,

it is simply a puma thing,

[one_iota]

I don't doubt you Stig but how many flogged out Puma transfers would you say you've seen?

[justinc]

I haven't yet had to pull one down, as the dealers get the job of opening them up during warranty, but yes all the ones I have inspected/ tested have been quite 'loose'. I have driven many earlier LT230's over 200K that are tighter:mad: Even ones with worn axles:(

I would love to be 100% proven incorrect, i'd hate to think that the iconic LT230 has declined, but the proof is out there, it seems.

JC

[pc3]

Well I suppose for those that want to keep there Pumas for a long time what are the possible conversions that can be done?

Motor and drive train transplant possibilities and aproximate costs, is this the option for Puma owners who want a 20 year car after warranty runs out?

I love the practicality of the 130 dual cabs I'd like to think I have a really longterm car......maybe Puma owners will need to look at conversion if they want to go long term, shouldn't have too I know but I suppose long term fixes need to be looked at?

[stig0000]

there have only been a couple that have been undriverbull and had to be towed, thats not including ones with other faults,

but the fact that there are so many that are what you would not expect of a car that age and Ks,

i allways thought that the "lt230" was pretty indestructible, until now:mad:

if it was me and i have 55k to spend on a new car,, id get a low k 06 td5, and you still have alot of change to add the good things you want, and that will last you 20yrs,

i can't see th point of doing a engine swap as the cost would far out-way the +'s, i really do believe that in the next 3-5yrs,, the price of late model td5s will be even if not more second hand then the current puma second hand,

that is why i have a td5 and will be keeping it for along time yet,

[justinc]

Well I suppose for those that want to keep there Pumas for a long time what are the possible conversions that can be done?

Motor and drive train transplant possibilities and aproximate costs, is this the option for Puma owners who want a 20 year car after warranty runs out?

I love the practicality of the 130 dual cabs I'd like to think I have a really longterm car......maybe Puma owners will need to look at conversion if they want to go long term, shouldn't have too I know but I suppose long term fixes need to be looked at?

Looking under Austastars 130 last week, The Puma TF case is actually a 1.2:1 ratio high range, basically the same as a late 'Q' gear equipped 98/99 D1....I would be fitting one of those and a Salisbury rear diff. That'll take care of the above drivetrain issues me thinks. An Auto conversion will see to the rest....THEN I'd just about entertain the thought of owning one Myself:)

JC

[pc3]

Can the 6 speed gear box stay ? What would that conversion cost using the 6 speed in it ? You happy with the transit motor or ideally change that too ?

I love the driving position and dash of the puma.

[justinc]

I don't see why not, way cheaper than an auto conversion, I mentioned that to eliminate the clutch issues:D
Next one I take a look at I'll pay close attention to where the TF attaches to the trans, IIRC they looked the same as the old R380 to LT230 pattern.
In a 130, the salisbury diff conversion is even simpler/ cheaper as ABS isn't there:) Just shorten the tailshaft and Voila.

Costs, not all that much actually. For example a good LOW km D1 T/Fer case can be had for way less than 1K, a Late (Up to 2002) Sals diff in good order EX 110/ 130 could be as cheap as $1000 without ABS, about $500 more or so with ABS sensors etc. Tailshaft Mods about $100.

Easy peasy :):)

JC

[stig0000]

Can the 6 speed gear box stay ? What would that conversion cost using the 6 speed in it ? You happy with the transit motor or ideally change that too ?

I love the driving position and dash of the puma.


we've had the gboxs drop 6th, lock in 2end, and they rattle and clunk like nothing,, and iv herd a few reports when in syd they theyv been having trouble with they lock up all together as the detents drop out
but certenly the week point is the clutch,

r380 6speed is my dream:angel::angel:

hate to say it:angel:but the engine themselves have been slightly improved over the yrs its been out, its manly drive train probs, altho there are a few egrs and turbos popping up every now and then, haven't done one yet but there is a overlay harness to be made for certain faults with the VNT as its the dodgy wiring causing probs

[pc3]

I don't see why not, way cheaper than an auto conversion, I mentioned that to eliminate the clutch issues:D
Next one I take a look at I'll pay close attention to where the TF attaches to the trans, IIRC they looked the same as the old R380 to LT230 pattern.
In a 130, the salisbury diff conversion is even simpler/ cheaper as ABS isn't there:) Just shorten the tailshaft and Voila.

Costs, not all that much actually. For example a good LOW km D1 T/Fer case can be had for way less than 1K, a Late (Up to 2002) Sals diff in good order EX 110/ 130 could be as cheap as $1000 without ABS, about $500 more or so with ABS sensors etc. Tailshaft Mods about $100.

Easy peasy :):)

JC

Justin I'm thinking one might be better sticking with there Pumas and just changing the bits to superior parts after warranty. Can one buy a brand new Salisbury diff ? This would be more economical than giving up your new car after a couple of years.

What diesel motor could be dropped into a puma that had more grunt ? I'm just imagining what the ultimate "full conversion" could be

[stig0000]

Justin I'm thinking one might be better sticking with there Pumas and just changing the bits to superior parts after warranty. Can one buy a brand new Salisbury diff ? This would be more economical than giving up your new car after a couple of years.

What diesel motor could be dropped into a puma that had more grunt ? I'm just imagining what the ultimate "full conversion" could be

tdv8 conversion (18k for motor assembly) ecm not included):angel:
behind zf 900nm 7 speed, (9k)

running portal suls front and rear :angel::angel::angel::wasntme:

its hard to say realy,, its all comes down to cost realy

[TimNZ]

TDV8's too wide for the chassis rails apparently :( However, the disco TDV6 3.0 with the disco manual 6 speed would keep me happy :D Just the rest of the drive line to worry about..... wonder if a defer body would fit on a LR3/4 chassis...... :ph34r:

[stig0000]

TDV8's too wide for the chassis rails apparently :( However, the disco TDV6 3.0 with the disco manual 6 speed would keep me happy :D Just the rest of the drive line to worry about..... wonder if a defer body would fit on a LR3/4 chassis...... :ph34r:

ohhh yer 3L:cool:

cheaper rego to, haha

anything is possible if you throw enough money at it,, theres a 90 in uk running a tdv6 and another running a tdv8:angel:,

[Allan]

So why not buy a D3 if the Defender is so bad. When I turned spanners for a living, long before becoming a mental Health Nurse, Ford Escorts were winning races all around the world. At this time I spent 5-6 hours a day changing clutch plates with the same problem as the Puma has. Ford also at that time replaced gearboxes by the thousends in British Fords. I still think the problem with the transmission will be fixed as they were then. Why own a Defender if all you want is a D3 or RR V8 sport clone. Other than the clutch problem I find my Puma to be the best 4x4 I've driven under most conditions. Yes my wifes 90 is perhaps a little better of road - depends, but all round no standerd TD5 or for that matter I think any other standard 4x4, maybe I forgot the Toyota v8 Diesal, could compare with the Puma both off or on road. Yes it has its problems but, though last night I had thoughts of selling it, after driving it again today---------ah what can you do.;)

Allan

[stig0000]

So why not buy a D3 if the Defender is so bad. When I turned spanners for a living, long before becoming a mental Health Nurse, Ford Escorts were winning races all around the world. At this time I spent 5-6 hours a day changing clutch plates with the same problem as the Puma has. Ford also at that time replaced gearboxes by the thousends in British Fords. I still think the problem with the transmission will be fixed as they were then. Why own a Defender if all you want is a D3 or RR V8 sport clone. Other than the clutch problem I find my Puma to be the best 4x4 I've driven under most conditions. Yes my wifes 90 is perhaps a little better of road - depends, but all round no standerd TD5 or for that matter I think any other standard 4x4, maybe I forgot the Toyota v8 Diesal, could compare with the Puma both off or on road. Yes it has its problems but, though last night I had thoughts of selling it, after driving it again today---------ah what can you do.;)

Allan

yes that was a little off topic:angel:, i no toyota are having probs with there v8, and leaking dust, apparently the amount of complaints for leaking dust is getting up there with the defender:o

so its not just landrover, but the thing that gets me is the defender is a extremely well established car, i can-not find another car that has lasted 60yrs like the defender has, and ford has killed it with trying to make it as cheap as possible, thats why so many people are getting stupid little faults with cars, and once they start they dont stop,, its one after another:mad::mad:

wile under warranty its just annoying that there's probs with your car, but once its out of warranty??? and it will have most likely over 100k on it, and its getting this probs at 20k??

[JDNSW]

............ i can-not find another car that has lasted 60yrs like the defender has,.........

The Defender has not lasted sixty years.

The Defender has been in production for twenty years, with its 90/110 predecessor really the same, so you can say it has actually lasted for twenty-six years.

The overall shape and dimensions go back to the Series 2 in 1958, but the chassis, suspension and layout owe their origin to the Rangerover in 1970, which is only takes you back forty years.

Going back to the first Landrover in 1948 is only the concept, and using this to say the Defender has lasted sixty years makes about as much sense as considering the current Holden Commodore as being the same as the 1948 Holden.

But twenty-six years of production is still a respectable life, compared, for example, to the Series 2/3 which was about the same, or the VW beetle and Citroen 2CV about fifty years. Both of these retained the same styling for fifty years, about the same as the Defender has, even though in the case of both the Defender and beetle it was only styling and basic concept.

John

[justinc]

So why not buy a D3 if the Defender is so bad. When I turned spanners for a living, long before becoming a mental Health Nurse, Ford Escorts were winning races all around the world. At this time I spent 5-6 hours a day changing clutch plates with the same problem as the Puma has. Ford also at that time replaced gearboxes by the thousends in British Fords. I still think the problem with the transmission will be fixed as they were then. Why own a Defender if all you want is a D3 or RR V8 sport clone. Other than the clutch problem I find my Puma to be the best 4x4 I've driven under most conditions. Yes my wifes 90 is perhaps a little better of road - depends, but all round no standerd TD5 or for that matter I think any other standard 4x4, maybe I forgot the Toyota v8 Diesal, could compare with the Puma both off or on road. Yes it has its problems but, though last night I had thoughts of selling it, after driving it again today---------ah what can you do.;)
Allan

Exactly Allan, well put!

JC

[muddymech]

i reckon we will see if landrover has messed up when it launchs the 2.2 defender, if the drive train is changed we have the answer.

would that be enough proof for a class action law suit to relive our suffering??????????

[pc3]

i reckon we will see if landrover has messed up when it launchs the 2.2 defender, if the drive train is changed we have the answer.

would that be enough proof for a class action law suit to relive our suffering??????????

When do the first 2.2 defenders hit Australia ?

I know it will have improved figures, but Im kind of glad I have a 2.4......I think thats small enough given the size of a defender. In reality the motor should have been the TDV6 in it I reckon.

[pc3]

i reckon we will see if landrover has messed up when it launchs the 2.2 defender, if the drive train is changed we have the answer.

would that be enough proof for a class action law suit to relive our suffering??????????

Warranty repairs then might use parts from the new drive train if possible...........

[4wheeler]

The Defender has not lasted sixty years.

The Defender has been in production for twenty years, with its 90/110 predecessor really the same, so you can say it has actually lasted for twenty-six years.

The overall shape and dimensions go back to the Series 2 in 1958, but the chassis, suspension and layout owe their origin to the Rangerover in 1970, which is only takes you back forty years.

Going back to the first Landrover in 1948 is only the concept, and using this to say the Defender has lasted sixty years makes about as much sense as considering the current Holden Commodore as being the same as the 1948 Holden.

But twenty-six years of production is still a respectable life, compared, for example, to the Series 2/3 which was about the same, or the VW beetle and Citroen 2CV about fifty years. Both of these retained the same styling for fifty years, about the same as the Defender has, even though in the case of both the Defender and beetle it was only styling and basic concept.

John

Had to use the Defender Puma for work the other day as I had to tow a pallet of goods for a delivery which would not fit in my normal work vehicle, a Hiace. Pulled up to have the goods loaded onto the trailer. A bloke was standing looking at the Defender and asked "What year is it mate?". I replied "its a 2007". He replied "Really! Looks like it was made in 1970" Had to smile.

No doubt the guts are modern but the look is classic and looks all of its 60 years of LR heritage. That's the charm of the thing.:):)

[crl]

When do the first 2.2 defenders hit Australia ?



Is that in the 'all new' Defender or is there an upgrade of the current model coming before then?

[windsock]

i reckon we will see if landrover has messed up when it launchs the 2.2 defender, if the drive train is changed we have the answer.

would that be enough proof for a class action law suit to relive our suffering??????????

Yep, court actions usually mean reliving angst before they are relieved... ;)

[pc3]

Is that in the 'all new' Defender or is there an upgrade of the current model coming before then?

Upgrade I beleive................

[Disco44]

These posts on the puma have me gobsmacked.I very nearly bought one.It seems my reluctance appears to have been wise and I will stick to my D1 TDi until the newey comes out.
Thanks all for your posts,the last thing I want in a new vehicle is dramas.

[crl]

Upgrade I beleive................

I look forward to seeing that, (hopefully with an upgraded drivetrain).

[ATH]

I'm with Disco 44 on this as I very nearly came back from the darkside and bought a Puma.
I've been chatting to LR in Albany but after this I definitely won't bother. My first worries were the lack of support outside of the metro area but now it seems from all I've read on here and the UK forums they really are not worth risking your money on.
I sold a Td5 I'd bought new because of the probs. following a breakdown and I'm certainly not going to be put in the same position again.
"Once bitten twice shy" the old saying says and I'm going to be even more shy after this.
What a pity such a great vehicle has been ruined by cost cutting.
Alan.

[n plus one]

Don't care about all of this - just the quick drive home from work is enough for me to love mine, let alone using it for what it's meant for :D

Can't imagine a better combination of old and new.

Then again mine's still going strong (touch wood)...

[one_iota]

I'm with Disco 44 on this as I very nearly came back from the darkside and bought a Puma.
I've been chatting to LR in Albany but after this I definitely won't bother. My first worries were the lack of support outside of the metro area but now it seems from all I've read on here and the UK forums they really are not worth risking your money on.
I sold a Td5 I'd bought new because of the probs. following a breakdown and I'm certainly not going to be put in the same position again.
"Once bitten twice shy" the old saying says and I'm going to be even more shy after this.
What a pity such a great vehicle has been ruined by cost cutting.
Alan.

The hyperbole needs to be toned down to match all the evidence. This is a subset of the Toyota versus Land Rover argument. :mad:

If I was in Disco44's and your shoes with what appears to be your temperament, I wouldn't buy one either. They are not for the faint hearted. Those of us who have a half reasonable Puma Defender (and remember that not everyone has issues or at least can tolerate them) get to drive a brand new flawed Classic. :p;):)

There is no guarantee that the latest incarnation will be any better or worse than the last or the ones that came before them.

[TimNZ]

The hyperbole needs to be toned down to match all the evidence. This is a subset of the Toyota versus Land Rover argument. :mad:

If I was in your's and Disco44's shoes with what appears to be your temperament, I wouldn't buy one either. They are not for the faint hearted. Those of us who have a half reasonable Puma Defender (and remember that not everyone has issues or at least can tolerate them) get to drive a brand new flawed Classic. :p;):)

There is no guarantee that the latest incarnation will be any better or worse than the last or the ones that came before them.


Thanks Mahn, after owning one I wouldn't want anything else! Hell, I've been mad enough to buy another one!! :bangin:

[one_iota]

Tim,

I'd noticed your signature. What colour this time around? :D

Further to the gist of the discussion above I would add that as the doctor mostly only ever sees sick people it must think that the rest of the population must equally be afflicted just as the mechanic who only sees crook vehicles suspects likewise of the rest.

Hope yours is a gooden and that the mechanic only gets to ask the Defender to say "aaaargh". ;)

[aew849]

Tomorrow a new puma is welcomed home.

Will provide a running report on how it beds in. Have previously had 2 new 110wagons (TDi + TD5, gripes aplenty) as well as the current 130. There was a S3 88" even before that!!

So am I afflicted with Landyitus....you bet.

aew849

[one_iota]

aew849

You will enjoy the latest version (those are the rules)

Don't forget the photos (those are the rules).

Sorry the therapy has failed...there is no cure for you (those are the rules).

:D

[TimNZ]

Tim,

I'd noticed your signature. What colour this time around? :D



White again :) I was swayed by the Stornaway Grey, but the wait was too long.

[n plus one]

Thanks Mahn, after owning one I wouldn't want anything else! Hell, I've been mad enough to buy another one!! :bangin:

Yep, if I had the cash I'd be buying another one too - a 130 to sit next to the 110 :twisted:

[pc3]

These damn defenders seduce you, I look at my Puma 130 now with fruit on it and I reckon there the greatest looking ca getting around, and I keep harping on it but NO dual cab on the market currently IMHO feels as nice in the cabin for comfort and the dash of the Puma feels tougher and of higher quality than tritons etc. It ain't all bad in the puma!!

[spudboy]

iv also noted how much drive line slack there is on pumas, my td5 with 118k and off road use, and its got no were near as much play as most pumas

the worst bit is that its NORMAL play, wev had alot customers complain of clunks and slack but compere it to a new and used defender its the same:mad:,



After getting the rear diff in my 2007 Puma replaced last week, a HUGE amount of clunking/slop has disappeared. The difference is startling and most noticable.

At standstill, just depressing the clutch in and out swiftly used to make internal clunking noises. Now they are gone.

1st to 2nd, and 2nd to 3rd used to clunk very noticably. Now there is no clunking between the gears.

Not sure how a new diff can make such a difference, but there you are. I've only done 300-400Kms since it was fitted, so am hoping the noises don't come back after a few thousand KMs or whatever.

[Allan]

Don't care about all of this - just the quick drive home from work is enough for me to love mine, let alone using it for what it's meant for :D

Can't imagine a better combination of old and new.

Then again mine's still going strong (touch wood)...

Couldn't agree more, even with the clutch problem, a problem i am sure will be rectified, the Puma is and will always be the only true 4x4 left on the market. A drive of a D3 or D4 will prove this. A fantastic vehicle but what program do you use on the selector to follow a Puma thats on its limits. Yes I am unhappy about the clutch, but to dissmiss the Puma as a cheap replacement for the TD5 is wrong. Both have their short commings, but both are better than the rest. The Puma is a very competent vehicle onroad, appart from a D3/4 the best I have driven, but is on its own off road. Bring a winch, a land anchor and a lot of ARB after market gear if you want to go where a Puma can.

Allan

[Disco44]

People I am still a Landy nutter having owned 10 of them and am also very handy with a spanner.I like the old fashioned look of the defender but at my age now don't want dramas..Hence my post. Roll on the next generation Defender I say.
Cheers.

[4wheeler]

These posts on the puma have me gobsmacked.I very nearly bought one.It seems my reluctance appears to have been wise and I will stick to my D1 TDi until the newey comes out.
Thanks all for your posts,the last thing I want in a new vehicle is dramas.

While some have had isues with their Defenders my 10/2007 unit seems to be going well. It has 29000 Km on it and will be due for service soon. I anticipate that they will have to change the oil and that is it. It has had the usual problems afflicting the 07 models (and some later) such as a replaced clutch and transfer output shaft seal. I have no major drivline clunks, smooth gear changes, silent diffs and no leaks either outside or inside the vehicle. I am very happy with mine so far and it is just great on the 4X4 tracks and that it without any modification!

It is a pitty that reliability issues and poor quality control seem to be damaging the image of what should be the "Best 4X4XFar"

[ATH]

Hi TimNZ.
I was told you traded your beast on a new Disco!!!! It's nice to hear that you and so many others love the things I dearly want to and so does the Cook, but having had that horrible experience with the Td5 we are really hesitant about another especially so much seems to be wrong with drive trains etc. Having said that though, I have a mate with one of about 2008 vintage and he's totally satisfied with it.
I'll still give it until early next year before making a final decision and will then do much searching of forums before leaving the plastic boring but reliable darkside!:D
Alan.

[TimNZ]

Hi Alan, I very nealy did trade my 110 on a disco, but finances have recently tightened so I had to re-evaluate. (Also the disco was going to hurt me on the lux car tax :( and I couldn't quite imagine life without a defender.....). I've ordered another 110 instead, my current one has been really good for the last 12 months, but the k's are getting a bit high. As it's my work car I really need to be covered by a vehicle warranty, and changing the car now works really well in my favour as far as tax goes. It gave me a bit of greif in the first year, but 2 minutes down the road all is forgotten!! :D

Cheers,

[dullbird]

Dave there are many out there that are going strong without problems...unfortunately there are also some out there like mine well, I will let you make up the rest of the story.

I am however strongly convinced that when the troubles are fixed it will be an awesome car and will go on for a long time...

and for everyone that slags off the ford engine.....its not the engine that is giving everyone dramas...in fact since my faulty engine was replaced it has been the most reliable thing on the car (touch wood :bangin: :D)


Wooops!!!:(

[rar110]

While some have had isues with their Defenders my 10/2007 unit seems to be going well. It has 29000 Km on it and will be due for service soon. I anticipate that they will have to change the oil and that is it. It has had the usual problems afflicting the 07 models (and some later) such as a replaced clutch and transfer output shaft seal. I have no major drivline clunks, smooth gear changes, silent diffs and no leaks either outside or inside the vehicle. I am very happy with mine so far and it is just great on the 4X4 tracks and that it without any modification!

It is a pitty that reliability issues and poor quality control seem to be damaging the image of what should be the "Best 4X4XFar"

Maybe the early pumas used left over td5 components. Hasn't land rover done this in the past?

[4wheeler]

Maybe the early pumas used left over td5 components. Hasn't land rover done this in the past?

Hi rar110,
Anything is possible with Land Rover. As long as mine doesn't break I will be happy.:)
It is a problem when there seems to be so many potential causes of clunks and bangs as indicated by the other posts. It would be so much easier if you could say there was a known consistent fault with one particular drive train component. Trouble is we cant! I count myself lucky at this stage given the grief others have had with their Defenders.

[spudfan]

Have had our Puma for two years now. Drove a 200 tdi 110 for 14 years prior to this.Like all Defender owners I was not happy with the use of electronics in the Defender as such. Heard all the gloom and doom regarding the Td5 on it's launch and now look how revered it is on this site.I think the Puma will be likewise thought of in the future. Technology will move on no matter how much I wish it would 'nt. I still cannot work the DVD recorder thing the Mrs. bought a few years back. Last night I could not get it to open so as I could put my VHS tape in. Must get the instructions out sometime.
14 years in a Tdi and I considered it a truly wonderful thing to drive. The Puma feels fragile compared to the Tdi. It is very quiet on the road. One can even have a conversation with the mrs. while travelling at 60 mph. The radio can be heard at volume 4 instead at volune 14. I kept hearing an unusual noise from somewhere in the back and it was very annoying. Turned out to be my daughter's MP3 player comming through the headphones. Yep the Puma is that quiet.After a long journey and you turn it off your ears do not ring in the silence.
Your left leg and left arm will not get the same work out as they do in previous Defenders. The clutch and gear change are so light and smooth. One almost feels inclined to put on that old difficult to get into gear face just to show passers by just how strong your left arm is.
The doors close with a solid clunk and not a rattle. Overtaking is a joy. Thought the Tdi was good given time to wind her up. The Puma just goes without having to drop back and wind her up. Should have been called Cheetah.
Going from a speed restriction to higher limits catches out other motorists. They always start overtaking early and get a bit of a shock when the Puma takes off and they find themselves stranded in the outer lane. Have often had to drop back to let the aforementioned motorist back in.
As for the electronics-what about them?My biggest complaint is the stuff under the driver's seat. Don't have the same space I had in the Tdi for that stuff I always packed in and never needed. Only electronic problem I had was a sensor needing replacing. Apart from that I had a leaking power steering reservoir which I fixed myself so that was like owning a "normal" Defender. Had the clutch replaced (rattle on turn off) and power steering box replaced(damp patch on top seal). Both could have gone on for a long time yet but I used my unheard of 3 year warranty. Nothing there that can be blamed on the electronics.
One does got a shock seeing Ford stamped on various components rather than Land Rover or even Leyland in some cases. Sadly the days of Land Rover designing a bespoke engine for the Defender are long gone. It simply will not sell in a large enough volume to make it worth their while.I doubt if the New Defender will be any different in that respect. If as we are led to believe the replacement Defender will not have beam axles and wonderfully simple coil springs it can only get more complicated and more dependent on electronics. So those out there who do not want to buy a Puma because of it's dependence on electronics and are wanting for it's replacement I have one question, namely Why? Things will not get any less complicated. The backroom boys in suits who concoct emissions regulaions will see to that.
A series 3 diesel Land Rover could be rebuilt from the chassis up giving you a good, solid, reliable and easily maintained Land Rover such as we are all hankering after. Sadly there are a few downsides. You won't hear the wife talking to you(I know some would not list this in the negative column) at 50 mph. She will not go 60,you will not hear the radio at volume 14 let alone volume 4. You will not hear the kids in the back let alone the MP3 player. Your ears will ring once you turn it off. Whether you could go 4 or 5 hours non stop is open to question. Overtaking skills will no longer be needed.You will however experience the full thrill of open top driving with all the windows and doors closed.Not to mention well developed left leg and arm muscles. I have a series 3 that I can poke at whenever the need arises and I need a fix.
Sadly there have been cases of bad quality control with some Puma components but that seems to be the exception rather than the rule.
For years people wanted Land Rovers to be easier to drive, less tiring, less effort involved and with better on road manners. Well it is here and it is called Puma. Me? I am off to nail this DVD recorder thing once and for all. There must be an easy way to get my VHS tape in. As for the serious Defender stuff I leave that to Derek, Allan and the rest of you who push Puma to the limits of it's capabilities. But I do take pride in the fact that I can probably polish mine better than any of the above mentioned owners.

[spudboy]

Nice view of the differences Spud!

I've been in the 'lucky' group of Puma owners (so far) and not had any issues with it. Had a new rear diff under warranty, but that was just clunky/noisy on orverrun and not a show stopper. Also had a new CD player, when the old one refused to spit out my CDs, but I'd be sure that wasn't made by Land Rover.

[Gav110]

Well said Spuds...

Mine is in for service this week to address the rattle, crunch and EGR/hesitation issues - just dropped it off !

[Allan]

Well said Spuds...

Mine is in for service this week to address the rattle, crunch and EGR/hesitation issues - just dropped it off !

I drop mine in tomorrow, hope its back for the week end.

Allan

[Allan]

Just got a phone call from sevice re the very noisy rattle in the Puma's clutch to be told "Its within normal parameters" What a load. I am supposed to pick it up tomorrow so while I'm there will ask them to start and stop another Puma next to mine and compare "parameters" I may then advise them of a good hearing centre to have their ears tested. Will see what happens tomorrow.:mad::mad::mad:

[LR D4]

Allan

I take it you use a certai dealer...:thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

Try Cannington I find them much better...:thumbsup::thumbsup:

LR09WA

[Allan]

Allan

I take it you use a certain dealer...:thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

Try Cannington I find them much better...:thumbsup::thumbsup:

LR09WA

This is the frst time I've had used this dealer, new service guy doesn't seem to listen or understand the problem I am describing. Will try again tomorrow afternoon

Allan

[Scallops]

I was told, by the service manager at my dealer some time ago, that a gap in my panels was "within Defender parameters". When I asked him to define this parameter, I was told an acceptable gap was up to 300mm! :eek:

When I responded that that made mine pretty good (as it was only about 1 cm), the sarcasm was well and truly lost on him. :D

Good luck with this clutch mission Allan. But as others have said, if you get no joy - try a LR specialist and get a written report, or try the other dealer.

Hope it works out for you - my Puma is at the dealers as we speak for a steering ball replacement - warranty item # 45,098 for my heap of ****.

[alittlebitconcerned]

Any further thoughts on the clutch issue? Mine hasn't done 70k yet and it looks like it will need another clutch soon. That will make it 5 clutches in two years.

[dullbird]

Matt I think you need to take your car to a specialist maybe Graeme cooper or someone like that....either your not getting the upgraded clutches when they are being changed and your getting the older ones in place from old stock on the shlef or you got issues going on else where I think.

[alittlebitconcerned]

I agree Lou.

[astoltz]

Technical Service Bulletin LTB00477/2012 : Released on 06 Aug 2012

Abrie

[cal415]

I think thats what mine(mid 2011 built 2.4 puma - 25,000km) is currently suffering from, it has a metallic rattle at idle and on gear changes, but no issues with clutch operation.

[cal415]

Well mine is in getting a service today and they have told me my noise it definetly the clutch, so they have ordered a new one which will be going in next week.... 25,000 on the original, the noise started about 15,000, then stopped and came back again about 20,000 and has slowly got worse. Sounds like a metallic ratle at idle like a loose bolt with a washer bouncing around - best way to describe the noise is its like someone has attached a tambourine to my gearbox! I guess i get the rev 4 clutch atleast...

[astoltz]

Technical Service Bulletin LTB00477/2012 : Released on 06 Aug 2012




Version 2 is out replacing the above:

Technical Service Bulletin LTB00477v2 : Released on 20 Aug 2012
version 2 basically is just an update to indicate that the Clutch Kit part Number is: LR037956

Regards
Abrie

[cal415]

Ok, mine is currently in bits at LR, It has a new clutch kit waiting to go in as per the Technical Bulletin above.... but apparently they dont want to use it as the new ones springs are even looser then the one that is coming out! So now i am stuck without a car for who knows how long, they have had it since tuesday morning and it was supposed to be ready yesterday... not happy.

This really doesn't leave me with much confidence in the standard LR clutch kit either, there must be a better option out there as i really dont plan on putting in a new clutch every 25,000km.

[cal415]

Well further news from the Newcastle dealership, apparently Land Rover have put a parts hold on all the clutch kits they currently have because they are all crap, they cant tell me what will happen next and are waiting to hear back from Land Rover.. What a joke, meanwhile my car sits disassembled in their workshop leaving me without transport until land rover get there **** together.

[noogie]

i just can't understand why they can't get this right.
I'm still on my original Clutch & the td5 has 125k on the clock.
I've been told mine is on the way out althoughi don't hear or feel any slipping.
Should get another 20 k out of it.
I'm concerned what the replacement Clutch will be like.

[n plus one]

Well further news from the Newcastle dealership, apparently Land Rover have put a parts hold on all the clutch kits they currently have because they are all crap, they cant tell me what will happen next and are waiting to hear back from Land Rover.. What a joke, meanwhile my car sits disassembled in their workshop leaving me without transport until land rover get there **** together.

Get onto LR Customer Service about it - they got me a hire car ASAP when there where delays at the dealership.

[cal415]

Well LR Customer service sorted out a loan car for me, i am driving a new Pajero till mine is running again, this is pretty poor timing though with the LR expo coming up and 4wd Action wanting to do a shoot of my 130, i need to get a few things finished off on it and had plans for the next to weekends to get a lot done... i guess i will have to work on the county instead for a change.

[Under Rover]

Well further news from the Newcastle dealership, apparently Land Rover have put a parts hold on all the clutch kits they currently have because they are all crap, they cant tell me what will happen next and are waiting to hear back from Land Rover.. What a joke, meanwhile my car sits disassembled in their workshop leaving me without transport until land rover get there **** together.

Clutch is one of many other problem from new, I've done 80.000km with 4 clutch kits, they are crap ( waited 2 weeks for the first one to get fix) PS. Cairns dealership cannot get there *^*#* together :thumbsdown::mad:

[LRO53]

i just can't understand why they can't get this right.
I'm still on my original Clutch & the td5 has 125k on the clock.
I've been told mine is on the way out althoughi don't hear or feel any slipping.
Should get another 20 k out of it.
I'm concerned what the replacement Clutch will be like.

No need to worry with a TD5, I've seen some in the UK with excess of 230,000 miles on the orgional (Yes they judder and make noise) But no signs of letting go. We had one go at 250,000 miles,There was heaps of meat on the driven plate it was the rivets that broke first!!!

Td5 Clutch's are the biggest clutch land rover fitted to a vehicle Its alot larger in surface area to a Tdi or Puma with DMF and good all round you won't have any problems with it.

If you are going to replace it. I always fit genuine Valeo (Green Boxed) with a new Genuine LR Dual Mass Flywheel (It's worth it) As the effort required to pull it out again it's not worth it. Also fit brand new Genuine Slave Cyl and Genuine Push road (Series 3 idea) Much better system then the Tdi idea. Also arguably better then the Ford Fester idea they use on the Puma.

If you do all this you will have another 200,000+ km out of it.

I would not expect you to need a clutch in that 125,000 km vehicle for a long long time unless it's had a very bad driver.....

[dullbird]

I thought the puma never had a dual mass fly wheel? or am I confusing it with something else

[justinc]

yup, no dual mass flywheel lou:)

jc