Do we have 15-20 year cars in the Puma

[pc3]

Folks what's your thoughts on this one, I purchased my Puma twin cab with the thought that this would be my ride for the nxt 10 years at LEAST. With all the stuff that CAN occur with the Puma who feels confident they have a long term car, and who else plans on keeping there Puma long term. Thing with 4x4,s you spend a lot on extras you need to keep them a while to get value. I've spent 7 k on extras inclusive of the tray.... And I ain't done yet.

[Dinty]

G'day, I've never seen a Puma, but I have a Isuzu 110 and have owned it for 20 years cheers Dennis:angel:

[juddy]

I think we will be keeping ours for a long time, cant afford another one....

[Blknight.aus]

my guess is probabley not.. but I also said the same thing about the td5.

my reasoning is this

1. you cant totally rebuild the block, its designed as a one shot wonder, once its worn out theres no recomended "oversizing" (same deal for the TD5)
2. the cost of replacing the engine is (once you get to having an old vehicle on your hands) more than the vehicle is worth (same with the td5)
3. the recent owner ship transfer of landy from ford to tata means that when they redo the deefer they'll change the layout and obsolete the older stuff. (there are some bits in the puma that are specific to only the deefer and no other landy so that hurts you in the spare parts department you have a smaller pool to start with).

this is based on doing 30K Km a year and nothing catastrophic happening to the vehicle, if you do less than that and keep it off the hard stuff and away from the beach it should last longer.

as an interesting note... I have a suspicion that in the future cars are going to become like airframes and have a limited life after which they must be scrapped. This is probably going to be done under the guise of concern over the continued reliability of the safety features in the design of the vehicle such as crumple zones as the metal ages and its properties change or it rust/stresses and they start to collapse on themselves with routine use.

[VladTepes]

Dave you are depressing me.

[mike_ie]

I think that from the point of view of bodywork, there'll be plenty of Puma's around in 20 years time, as I do believe that they have made some significant improvements over some of the body parts and panels of the earlier Defender. However, as Dave has pointed out, the engine and drivetrain is a different story.Easiest way to look at it is to ask yourself "how many Ford Transits do I see still running in 20 years time???"

The future for serviceable cars in general is bleak. Again,as Dave pointed out, the people in the pointy hats in health and safety offices all over the world are making car parts obsolete after a few years due to various "safety" concerns, and already in Europe, some car manufacturers are already bringing out cars with "black box" engines. No longer to you change the timing belt when it's due, or swap out the alternator when that goes.Instead, after 100,000km you drive into your local dealership, they chuck a crane over your car, yank out your fully sealed engine, and drop in a replacement, complete with bits bolted on. :(

[Narangga]

as an interesting note... I have a suspicion that in the future cars are going to become like airframes and have a limited life after which they must be scrapped. This is probably going to be done under the guise of concern over the continued reliability of the safety features in the design of the vehicle such as crumple zones as the metal ages and its properties change or it rust/stresses and they start to collapse on themselves with routine use.

You deserve another iced coffee Dave - that's exactly were we are going.


Dave you are depressing me.

Does me to a degree too - however the truth often does that :(

[KarlB]

This thread reminds me of the old fellow who claimed he had been using the same axe for 60 years. In that time he replaced the head three times and the handle seven.

That said, I don't have any doubt the Pumas will last at least 10 years and many will see 20. Will they last 50+ like the Series Is is a different question. In 50 years enthusiasts will most likely be looking for old Pumas to cannibalise for parts for their project vehicle just like many Series I enthusiasts do today. I do admit that the Series vehicles are more akin to an axe than a Puma is however.

A more pressing issue relating to vehicle longevity is fuel availability and far more stringent controls on emissions.


Cheers
KarlB

[greenhornet]

I think it is a reasonable question to ask.
It comes back to how many kms you plan on putting on the vehicle (as Blknight stated)
Our Puma is not a daily driver and hence the kms are going to stay low, so ‘yes’ we plan to keep for 10-15 years and ‘yes’ keep adding gear as we go.

[mike_ie]

I think it is a reasonable question to ask.
It comes back to how many kms you plan on putting on the vehicle (as Blknight stated)
Our Puma is not a daily driver and hence the kms are going to stay low, so ‘yes’ we plan to keep for 10-15 years and ‘yes’ keep adding gear as we go.

Agreed, but you can say that about any car that you keep in the garage for 350 days of the year. I would assume that the question is more directed towards the general use Land Rover, and the famous claim that 75% of all manufactured Land Rovers are still on the road. There are plenty of Series Land Rovers out there that have been used as farm trucks for 40 years and still going strong. Will the same be said of the Puma??

[alittlebitconcerned]

I doubt my car will last 10 years. I will sell mine once the extended warranty I will be getting is finished. There is no way I could afford the ongoing repairs required just to keep it on the road. Mine has been getting repairs done one week in four for the last six months with no end in sight. I have little faith in the Puma's reliability and less in LR willingness to sort it out under warranty. I have been told by my service centre that my expectations are too high for the Puma.

[KarlB]

Kilometres travelled is a good point but it isn't as simple as that. It is also a factor of how hard they are worked and where they are worked. I would expect my D90 with my minimalist approach to gear when touring will last much longer than a 130 that does the same distance but with a tonne or more of gear in the back all the time. Also, two similar vehicles travelling the same roads but at different average speeds will have different expected longevities.

[pc3]

I am thinking that if us Puma drivers want to keep our rigs long term then once out of warranty just start replacing lr drivetrain parts with improved aftermarket parts and buy an aftermarket motor as funds permit.

My cruiser ute was still going great after 10 years of ownership.... I think Puma owners will need to start putting "stronger components" in as stuff breaks out of warranty. I see a "Puma" cottage industry starting up.

I hope we are all able to still buy "live axeled" rovers and 70 series styled cruisers in 20 years time. Someone will still see a market for a real 4x4 surely.

[mike_ie]

So it begs the question - what is the ideal Land Rover in terms of longevity? A Puma chassis and body, Isuzu motor and matching gearbox, salisbury axles, TD5 interior and dash. Could make an interesting project :)

[Scallops]

I feel so depressed owning 2 Land Rovers that I doubt I shall last the next 20 years - let alone the truck.:(

AFAIC - Pumas are junk. :mad: Mine doesn't seem capable of lasting through it's warranty, let alone any long term goal. So many people, having issue after issue - so many threads on so many forums - do some searching if you doubt this - it's universal, the world over, so many of these vehicles with dramas - it's a disgrace.

I cringe when I see new owners proudly announcing their faith in these trucks - a new vehicle should work. I just hope, for their sake, that they still feel OK with their purchase after a few more years and a few more kms. I don't.

[Blknight.aus]

So it begs the question - what is the ideal Land Rover in terms of longevity? A Puma chassis and body, Isuzu motor and matching gearbox, salisbury axles, TD5 interior and dash. Could make an interesting project :)


Id go a perentie with the firewall removed, sand blasted and cad plated

[pc3]

Yeh reading all that stuff depresses me as well, I did talk to another 130 puma owner the other day 79 k and only a clutch and vacume seal. The other car owned by Gary Yost a 130 twin cab 83 k and he claims no issues, best ute he's had and he had a feet of over 100 utes at one time for his business.

At the same time my close mate is foreman mechanic at Holden where i live, he said new holdens are crap. The captiva has every imaginable problem, they call them craptivas, one bloke had a colarado he was up near the CSR now he may not gave been driving to conditions but ge broke front and rear shackles, diff slid back pulling prop shaft out, this spun around and tore hole in the gearbox. It cost him $7200 to get a tow and just over 9k in damage. My mate said the stone sheilds underneath where polished silver...... No clearance and just another fake 4x4.

There has to continue to be a market forca fairdinkum off road rig with reasonable comfort. The puma is it just not executed well. There is a market for someone to do Puma conversions to make them bullet proof...... Brand new motor and drivetrain transplants, a reliable 6 cyl diesel motor and super strong drivetrain all new parts at a price that while may not be too cheap but could be justified as it will last 20 years, it would be standard conversion with all parts aimed at longevity and reliability.

[alittlebitconcerned]

I feel so depressed owning 2 Land Rovers that I doubt I shall last the next 20 years - let alone the truck.:(

AFAIC - Pumas are junk. :mad: Mine doesn't seem capable of lasting through it's warranty, let alone any long term goal. So many people, having issue after issue - so many threads on so many forums - do some searching if you doubt this - it's universal, the world over, so many of these vehicles with dramas - it's a disgrace.

I cringe when I see new owners proudly announcing their faith in these trucks - a new vehicle should work. I just hope, for their sake, that they still feel OK with their purchase after a few more years and a few more kms. I don't.

I wish I didn't agree but I do. I have been rorted and unfortunately more will come to the same conclusion in time.

[rovercare]

I can see them being a great 20 year vehicle:)



Once you've all retrofitted 4BD1's and LT95's:twisted:

[n plus one]

Seems unlikley it will be legal to drive internal combustion engined vehicles in 20 years, with the possible exception of some sort of limited club registration.

Hopefully I'll be able to retro-fit electric engined drop-drives into the puma and use the engine bay for addtional storage :D

[MacFamily]

Its a shame to hear all these Puma disaster stories but to me its seems LR are building crap defenders so over time people will hate them that much that they will be able to drop the Iconic defender off the line.

It must be costing the dealers/LR a fortune in warrenty jobs with parts, time and also wages.

Back on original Question any Vehicle can last 20years just comes down to maintence/care.My old 94 TDI defender has done 370k and still going strong buts thats also replacing parts eg water pump, vacuum pump, rebuit injector pump serviced every 5k and touch wood will still be going in another 370k cause I dont plan on parting with it :D

I know the Puma has alot of problems but any motor,gearbox or diff can be replaced with a superior part just depends how deep your pockets are.

I went for the 300tdi cause most problems had already been reconized and solved eg timing belt.But I think the problems that Tdi's and TD5's had are nothing compared to the Puma and I say that in a nice way.

All these rear diff problems were never heard of when the defender had a salisbury up the rear (except for axles) which can be upgraded, Why did they drop the salisbury ?

Scallops yours always seemed to be one of the better one's what happened?

Ive never owned a new car and proberly never will but its must be allot of strain and heartach putting your hard earned cash into something new and have it constantly failing.

Also this would not be good for the market value of a puma as I would see most trying to sell/trade before warrenty is up therfore having alot of Puma's on the market for sale and no body purchasing them driving the price down further.

Lets hope that when the defender gets its new make over they rectify alot of the current problems.

[PAT303]

No vehicle bought today will last.Lift the bonnet on a 2.25 series then look under a puma,cruiser and patrol.Anyone can get a 2.25 going,it takes hours,and I mean hours of arm twisting,knuckle skinning work to doing anything on modern vehicles.It's not the basic mechanics that are at fault,it's all the rubbish they fit on them to pass laws etc that cause the trouble and they will make vehicles in the future unrepairable. Pat

[slug_burner]

As the part count goes up the probability of having a part fail also goes up. Simple probability says that a Puma is more likely to have a part fail just because it has more parts. That is without considering that there may be some design flaws which are yet to be sorted in the Puma.

Don't know much about the Pumas but are the faults being experienced things that second hand car buyers would just suck up and live with or simply repair versus the high expectations of new car buyers?

In the end it will be the availability of fuel that will be the end of all current generation vehicles.

[mike_ie]

Don't know much about the Pumas but are the faults being experienced things that second hand car buyers would just suck up and live with or simply repair versus the high expectations of new car buyers?

A second-hand car buyer will suck it up (to a point) because it's exactly that - a second-hand car, complete with X amount of miles on the clock and the possibility that something may be on the way out. I don't think it's too high an expectation of any owner that they buy a new car straight off the production line and not want it in the garage one week in every four, having something repaired.

Too many of the complaints aren't from people that have been driving the vehicle for a few years before a problem pops its head up, but rather owners that have had the vehicle for mere months, weeks even. There's a thread here posted just today from an owner who has fond a list of problems, 70 something kilometres off the line. That's pretty shocking, in anyone's book.

[stace70]

Well one month out from handing over the hard earned and reading this makes me second guess myself as to whether I should be happy doing a $500 deposit and walk away from the sale. I am buying with the hope that I have a 15-20 yr ute, just like PC3.
But if I walk....to what.....a dual cab leaf sprung ute, with a maximum 1800L tray, 2250T towing capacity, 880kg payload (including accessories). With the only thing going for it IMHO is my mates would say you've done the right thing, you'll be happy with the Toyo. Only to read on toyota forum (newhilux.net) or complaints corner (COMPLAINTS CORNER - PROBLEMS WITH YOURS: TOYOTA*HILUX* - MOTORSM.COM (http://www.motorsm.com/complaints/000.asp?catid=199)) that there is a bucket load of problems with them too, and you don't get a real off road vehicle.

SWMBO always told me she would have painless contractions during birth....that certainly never happened....but I am sure they are not an urban myth.... a defender that comes straight from factory without an issue..urban myth...we will have to see. I will post back in 15-20 yrs hopefully with the same 130 I am about to get (perhaps broke).

[pc3]

Stace pointed out exactly the same things I considered when buying a twin can ute...... Really what are the alternatives. Anyway I have made my choice now and need to live with it. The concept of the 130 twin cab Puma is perfect......in thinking about it stronger drivetrain and clutch would solve 80% of Puma issues as from what I have read majority if issues reside here.

[incisor]

me thinks you fellas need to harden up :P

you think it's hard putting up with a 1 yr old land rover

have some pity for us guys that drive 30 year old ones and battle to keep them on the road as daly drivers.

look at the range rover, always railed as the most unreliable 4wd, yet time and time again they come up as the most capable in real life .

the capability comes at a price, always has, always will.

what makes you guys special [insert tongue in cheek smilie here] :D

[austastar]

Hi,
well I may be a bit naive mechanically, but all my vehicles have been 20+ years old by the time I sold them, and that is with me just doing oil changes and the odd head gasket with some help from friends.
I now have a Puma D130 ute and am so happy with it, I just love the way it drives.
My only real comparison for regular use now is a 3 year old Corolla, a 35 year old Toyota Dyna camper and a 35 year old BMW R75/6 motorcycle.
Will it last 20 years and will I still be driving it when I'm 85? (That last bit was scary to type.) Well I can't see any reason why not so far, it is in better condition and instils more confidence in its ability than any thing else I have owned.
I know we will never buy a new 'car' again after the car park nightmares we have had with shopping cart and similar damage to the Corolla, despite the Mrs being almost paranoid about where she parks it.
The Puma is not a daily driver either, which will add to its longevity for us at least, but it will be getting some very long runs on the mainland avoiding freeways where ever possible.
I could not find another vehicle I would rather own.
cheers

[solmanic]

Logically, most of the bits on a Puma Defender should last as long as the bits on any other previous model Defender. The bits that mightn't (as others have pointed out) are engine, drivetrain & electrics. Which could leave one pretty much rooted if they failed and ready spares are no longer available.

I may never know whether mine lasts 10 or 20 years as I have a personal policy on motor vehicles... If you have one old car, then make sure you have one new car for when the oldie plays up. Since I already have my "old" car, the Land Rover will always need to be my "new" car so I will no doubt trade up again in three or four years (my longing gaze is drawn to the G-Wagen).

If (and this is a BIG "if") Land Rover manage to design a replacement Defender that somehow miraculously combines all the capabilities & simple good looks of the current Defender with the necessary safety & emissions requirements then I may well consider buying again.

I think most of the problems with the current Puma are that it is so obviously a stop-gap model which Ford merely used to shove some of their own spare parts into before they bailed out. Maybe if Land Rover had were using all in-house technology and didn't have the uncertainty of the company's impending sale hanging over them things would have been much different. I think this was the reason we missed out on a TDV6 Defender.

[Hardchina]

I hope not, i really want a puma six speed box and tranny for the county. Should be able to make a bell housing adapter. By the sounds of it, there will be a few comming on the market soon.

You have to look at it as a good thing. The pumas will keep old countys on the road for another 25 years plus. :p

[PAT303]

I'd like to know what the difference is with the transit fitted to defenders and the ones fitted to the vans,the water board here in town run transits and they have prooven to be more robust than any previous vehicles,so much so they are being replaced with new transits as there time comes up.A mate of mine works there and his was filled with half a tank of petrol but suffered none the worst for it.The gloss is wearing off many new work vehicles,the 79 series is having some annoying and wierd problems that really shows the cost cutting tojo are doing. Pat

[pc3]

Pat I don't think the issue really is the motor didn't lr engineers make some good changes to the motor ford took on board ?

Main problems with Pumas seems to be with anything drivetrain related and maybe poorley made transfer box?

[5teve]

I'd like to know what the difference is with the transit fitted to defenders and the ones fitted to the vans,the water board here in town run transits and they have prooven to be more robust than any previous vehicles,so much so they are being replaced with new transits as there time comes up.A mate of mine works there and his was filled with half a tank of petrol but suffered none the worst for it.The gloss is wearing off many new work vehicles,the 79 series is having some annoying and wierd problems that really shows the cost cutting tojo are doing. Pat

I dont think the engine is the problem, like you say they are used all over, and to be honest in the UK thats all that is used. They get abused to all hell, but still have the niggly issues such as the vac pump leak (our transit is also leaking) the worst bit is that i have been quoted $900 to replace here. I can buy a new part from the UK for 35 quid (70 dollars) i'm pretty sure if the parts were that cheap over here then it would become a bit like the oil in the loom td5 issue, pretty much a service item its cheap, fairly easy to replace and just has to be done sometimes.. but for $900 you dont want to be doing it every couple of years!

All the other issues.. well i'm pretty sure the TD5 and 300TDI probably went through the same sort of thing too.. but maybe the internet and forums werent so widely developed to bring people and issues so closely together. Its easy to find issues and hundreds of them.. its been said many times before on here and its human nature!

I just hope you puma guys finally have the fixes put in place and they start behaving...

Steve

[mike_ie]

me thinks you fellas need to harden up :P

you think it's hard putting up with a 1 yr old land rover

have some pity for us guys that drive 30 year old ones and battle to keep them on the road as daly drivers.

look at the range rover, always railed as the most unreliable 4wd, yet time and time again they come up as the most capable in real life .

the capability comes at a price, always has, always will.

what makes you guys special [insert tongue in cheek smilie here] :D

Heh, reminds me of a post I saw on a UK landrover forum a few days ago. The poster was worried that his Defender wasn't leaving puddles of oil on his garage floor like everyone elses Defender, and he wanted to know what was wrong with his. Not only was this deemeda perfectly valid question, but cue twenty posts from other members of the forum, telling him to check various oils and fluids, because if they weren't on the garage floor, then something must be empty :D I'd love to see the response from Ford if I wrote in to tell them that their Transit wasn't dumping oil all over my nice clean driveway :D

I guess as Landy owners, we accept (whether we realise it or not) that our vehicles aren't "buy and forget", but more of a continuous hobby, where we'll be changing bits, doing upgrades, etc, until the next Defender purchased.

[spudboy]

Well one month out from handing over the hard earned and reading this makes me second guess myself as to whether I should be happy doing a $500 deposit and walk away from the sale...

Stace - don't despair. There are good ones out there that have not had issues. Some just seem to have been Monday morning or Friday afternoon cars. Poor Scallops and Mrs Ho Har (? Diana - or is it Lots-a-landies...) have had very bad runs.

If you expect a few teething issues, then you can be pleasantly surprised if it all goes without a hitch. We have had a good run with ours (2007 110 - new rear diff under warranty + new CD player under warranty), and I guess there are lots of others who have too, but you can't make an internet post out of 'nothing went wrong on my holiday adventure'.

Hope yours is one of the good ones.

Cheers
David

[Lotz-A-Landies]

<snip>
My cruiser ute was still going great after 10 years of ownership.... I think Puma owners will need to start putting "stronger components" in as stuff breaks out of warranty. I see a "Puma" cottage industry starting up.
<snip>So will we now be seeing a new generation of Land Rovers re-powered by a new generation of smaller Isuzu turbo diesels in line with weight of the Puma engines?

It seems that Isuzu owners swear by them.

What I see as the differences between the new Landies and the old Series engines is that old parts are mechanical and can often be repaired, the new components often contain microprocessors that have wizard like abilities but tend to fail leaving the driver stranded. I think it will be the microprocessor parts that will be difficult to acquire. The final factor is the supplies in the parts chain, given that motor manufacturers only have to provide support for old models for something like 5 years, they only manufacturer parts to supply over that 5 years. Older vehicles the supply chain seemingly went on for decades. I can remember as a teenager going into Grenville Motors at Five Dock to pick up an OEM exhaust system for a 25 year old 80" Land Rover. I can't see Alto, Trivett, Purnell or Classic Land Rover still being able to supply OEM parts for the Puma in 2033.

[scrambler]

SNIP
Older vehicles the supply chain seemingly went on for decades. I can remember as a teenager going into Grenville Motors at Five Dock to pick up an OEM exhaust system for a 25 year old 80" Land Rover. I can't see Alto, Trivett, Purnell or Classic Land Rover still being able to supply OEM parts for the Puma in 2033.

My Father-in-law bought a new gear lever two weeks ago for his 1967 Fiat tractor. Had to accept the previous (1964) model lever because that was all the Fiat dealer network had available. Mind you, after 40+ years sitting on a dealer's parts shelf, needed the surface rust cleaned off it first!

Back a little more on topic, I think the basic framework of the Puma will survive as well as any of the coil-sprung versions but the driveline cost-cutting that has been going on since the design was first laid down in the 1980's will mean that very little will be salvagable to keep Countys etc going.

As to what to repower with, I'm guessing we'll all be forced down the line of a gas turbine diesel/electric hybrid system, or something like it, by emissions rules, regardless of what the original power supply was or the age of the chassis.

When the 200TDI came out, Defender was offering whole motors as repower for Series vehicles. I'm hoping that the 2013 (or whenever) diesel/electric hybrid system is designed for retrofitting. And that the electronics are vibration- and water-proof

[PAT303]

Whats the vac pump leak?,do they leak out of the cover like Tdi's?. Pat

[5teve]

I'm a bit wooly on the leak but from what i can see it leaks from the gasket between it and i think the water pump... sometimes quite catastrophically.. there is another gasket also that leaks near the water pump... but i beleive there are upgraded gaskets now... i'm also onl talking from the transit engine... as ours is going to have to be fixed soon..

It was one of the most common failures i think for the first pumas.. ?

Steve

[Blknight.aus]

from what I got from the dealers (and what I managed to work out by putting a transit next to a new one) theres not much different in the motors, the turbo, exhaust and fuel system are modified as is the intake but you expect that, Im told the deefer mapping is significantly different.

I suspect they also use a different clutch.

there was 2 leaks from the vac pump 1 was from the front seal and the other was from the sealing gasket. from memory they had 2 go rounds on the seal and the gasket one was limited to a batch of engines that the housing wasnt torqued down on properly. the seal one was the one that had the potential to go catastrophic.

[n plus one]

Well one month out from handing over the hard earned and reading this makes me second guess myself as to whether I should be happy doing a $500 deposit and walk away from the sale.

Wouldn't stress too much mate - I'm on a bunch of forums (motos, mtbs, etc) you'd never buy anything if you took all the comments as representative of whast you'll experience. Mine's got 25k on the clock with no real dramas - slight clunk in the back end (reckon it'll need a new dif before warranty is out), had a bit of vibe in the drive train but the muddies 'fixed' that :D, lost a mud flap due to incorrect fittment and that's about it.

Basically what Spudboy says.

Anyway, what else you gunna' do? You think sitting around wishing you'd hadn't bought a Toyota would make you happier? I know what I'd prefer...

[slug_burner]

A second-hand car buyer will suck it up (to a point) because it's exactly that - a second-hand car, complete with X amount of miles on the clock and the possibility that something may be on the way out. I don't think it's too high an expectation of any owner that they buy a new car straight off the production line and not want it in the garage one week in every four, having something repaired.

Too many of the complaints aren't from people that have been driving the vehicle for a few years before a problem pops its head up, but rather owners that have had the vehicle for mere months, weeks even. There's a thread here posted just today from an owner who has fond a list of problems, 70 something kilometres off the line. That's pretty shocking, in anyone's book.

Perhaps what I wrote did not come out the way it was meant to. I did not mean that new car buyers should not have expectations to get a trouble free product. I just thought that if Defenders are hand made as opposed to made by robots then the expectations that you might have when buying a new Japanese sedan which is made by the millions might be different for a vehicle that only sells in the tens of thousands if that.

Hand made or not some things are just not acceptable and that puma with the poor paint job where the rust is coming through, the paint is cracked and in places the pant is not adhering due to bird poo or some other contaminant not cleaned off properly are not things anyone should be happy to accept.

[spudfan]

Just back from a trip to the doctor. While there I asked the doc ehether I'd be around in 20 years time. Lots of laughs and then the "Well I don't see any reason why you should'nt be, but there are no guarantees!" Even if I am around the question is whether I will be able to get into the Puma or not! Ah yes just enjoy things and what comes down the track will come anyway.
Over here two years ago the road tax on new vehicles went from being based on engine cc to emissions based. The road tax on a private registered Defender (i.e. windows and seats) went from 1394.64 AUD overnight to 2983.53 AUD annually. We managed to get a Puma registered the day before the change over so we pay the "cheap" 1394.64 yearly tax. It will be the last Defender we will ever have so we love our Puma. It is not a case of whether the Puma will last 20 years but when the bureaucrats will tax us off the road. So till then we will drive our Puma and love it.

[pc3]

Just back from a trip to the doctor. While there I asked the doc ehether I'd be around in 20 years time. Lots of laughs and then the "Well I don't see any reason why you should'nt be, but there are no guarantees!" Even if I am around the question is whether I will be able to get into the Puma or not! Ah yes just enjoy things and what comes down the track will come anyway.
Over here two years ago the road tax on new vehicles went from being based on engine cc to emissions based. The road tax on a private registered Defender (i.e. windows and seats) went from 1394.64 AUD overnight to 2983.53 AUD annually. We managed to get a Puma registered the day before the change over so we pay the "cheap" 1394.64 yearly tax. It will be the last Defender we will ever have so we love our Puma. It is not a case of whether the Puma will last 20 years but when the bureaucrats will tax us off the road. So till then we will drive our Puma and love it.


These moronic pen pushers drive me crazy.....................where will it end.