Club Permit Scheme - Profit no Profit

[chris1983rangie]

G'day all,

I'm curious as to why Club Permit Vehicles are not allowed to be used for commercial hire or profit? eg, weddings tv & film etc.

but if the Vehicle is fully registered theres no problem is there?
why is this?

the only thing i could think of is the Club Permit scheme has a non profit rule which is why the the cost of CP is kept low.

but its a different story if the vehicle is on private property?

id like to hear your comments on this one.

thanks,

Chris ;)

[101RRS]

Club permits are exactly that - for use on club events. Exceptions are to and from repairers.

Weddings and TV media events are not normally club events so the vehicle cannot be used.

Garry

[VladTepes]

The short answer is "the government is screwing you over" - as usual.

[Bigbjorn]

From discussions I have had with Qld. Transport officers over the years about the Specal Interest scheme, I can assure you that the Department regards it as a PIA, un-necessary, and something extra to administer. They would be well pleased to be quit of it. Their attitude is that many people have vehicles that see little use and pay their full registration so why should an exception be made because a vehcle is 30+ years old, or is a "street rod".

So think yourself lucky you have the existing scheme.

[Mick_Marsh]

There is discussion in Vic that the rules for these cars will be changed. Instead of being restricted to "club events" they will be restricted to "distance within a period of time". I'm not sure of how many km or the time period but it will be recorded in a log book you fill out before the start of the journey and compleated at the end of the journey.
With these rule changes you may be able to hire out your beloved.
I'll try to find out more.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I guess it's a matter of cost.

A hire car registration is weight taxed and costs over $1,000.00 per year with the green slip (third party compulsory) insurance.

Historic registration in NSW is not weight taxed and costs about $25.00 per year including green slip. It is also a great priviledge that we have access to it.

No one is preventing you from fully registering your vehicle to use as a car for hire and therefore paying what every other commercial vehicle on the road is paying for.

Historic/Special Interest/Club permit is exactly that and should never be considered cheap rego to be used and abused.

There is discussion in Vic that the rules for these cars will be changed. Instead of being restricted to "club events" they will be restricted to "distance within a period of time".<snip>. Mick

I'm not sure that limiting distance on an historic vehicle registration will serve the same purpose as the current schemes. Why should a vehicle that is 30 year old and only driven to do the saturday morning shopping and go the grandparents on birthdays be treated any different to a 2010 model used for the same purpose.

The more people complain that they can't use their historic vehicle to take a load of rubbish to the tip etc, the more likely that Governments will take notice and remove this great benefit to us.

Please don't abuse the system and cruel it for the rest of us!

BTW: The use on private property does have some restrictions. If the environment is a public right-of-way marked on a map or it is private property like a car park, it is treated the same as a public road and is termed a road related area. Vehicles used on road related areas must have registration or a permit.

BTW 2: Historic registration (and AFAIK Special Interest/Club Plates/) are only considered Registered if used in compliance with their Club's rules. Any other use, the vehicle is considered unregistered, so don't get caught out by this trap.

[Bigbjorn]

Diana, I can just imagine the speed and the fury with which hire car operators would contact their member and the minister if SI reg. vehicles were allowed to compete with them with a substantial cost advantage. Correctly, the government restricts private and commercial use of SI vehicles. The concession is to enable them to be used occasionally for club events and restricted use for repairs and road tests.

One fellow club member contacted me about being pulled over by a QT inspector mid-week driving his historic plate vehicle. He confidently told the officer that he was driving it to the spare parts shop to buy parts to use on the vehicle which he considered to be useage in the course of repair. Wrong, said the inspector. That is private usage. You can drive to the spare parts shop in any normally registered vehicle, so take it home now. I told him the inspector is correct, and you are damn lucky he didn't give you a bluey for driving an unregistered vehicle and told you to have it towed home. If he was a nark he could have done this.

Given the high proportion of narks in QT employ, he was indeed lucky.

I don't know if this is the same in other states, but in Qld. we have a clique who are pushing their own barrow in an attempt to have QT accept their dream of having one SI number plate issued to a person and that person could drive any of a declared list of complying SI vehicles said to be owned by them using that plate. QT not at all impressed by having something else to administer and also creating a system wide open to abuse. One senior QT officer I speak to regularly says that if they have ten roadworthy classic cars then they can afford to register them or sell a few until they can.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Absolutely Brian

It is of some great concern that we have HCRS vehicles in our Club and I have not heard from some of them from one year till the next rego is due. It is something our Club is about to audit, and if we find out that a member is running the cheap rego line we'll be obliged to do what other clubs do and notify the RTA that the member is using the vehicle outside the Club's rules.

That would be very sad.

I have heard by way of the HCRS grapevine that one Club was audited by the RTA to check members were doing the correct thing after a member was caught using an HCRS truck to collect bush rock. Another where an HCRS trailer was booked outside one of the northern suburbs tips. They had to get another trailer to unload the rubbish to take into the tip and then carry the now unregistered trailer back home.

[Mick_Marsh]

Mick

I'm not sure that limiting distance on an historic vehicle registration will serve the same purpose as the current schemes. Why should a vehicle that is 30 year old and only driven to do the saturday morning shopping and go the grandparents on birthdays be treated any different to a 2010 model used for the same purpose.

The more people complain that they can't use their historic vehicle to take a load of rubbish to the tip etc, the more likely that Governments will take notice and remove this great benefit to us.

Please don't abuse the system and cruel it for the rest of us!

BTW: The use on private property does have some restrictions. If the environment is a public right-of-way marked on a map or it is private property like a car park, it is treated the same as a public road and is termed a road related area. Vehicles used on road related areas must have registration or a permit.

BTW 2: Historic registration (and AFAIK Special Interest/Club Plates/) are only considered Registered if used in compliance with their Club's rules. Any other use, the vehicle is considered unregistered, so don't get caught out by this trap.
Sorry, I was not clear.
It's not my discussion. It's Vicroads' discussion. They sent a paper of proposed changes to motoring clubs within Victoria and called for comment from the motoring clubs and individuals. That was earlier this year.

[Bigbjorn]

Absolutely Brian

It is of some great concern that we have HCRS vehicles in our Club and I have not heard from some of them from one year till the next rego is due. It is something our Club is about to audit, .

Diana, in Qld. they only have to be a financial member of a club to do the iniitial SI registration. They don't have to provide proof of membership every year, just pay the renewal. An ex-president and life member of a prominent Brisbane club reckons 70% of their members are there only for the rego. and are rarely seen at events or meetings. He says "Thank you, God" for the fact that few know they don't have to continue membership. The club would probably fold from lack of funds.

[Sprint]

cant speak for other clubs, but i know my local car club passed a requirement for club members living within a 100km radius to attend 2 club events, be it the monthly meeting, friday night/sunday morning cruise or whatever each year to remain a member of the club,

[Lotz-A-Landies]

At least in NSW a declaration has to be signed and stamped by the club each year, whether people forge that signature I don't know and how conscientious the RTA clerks are sighting the current membership card is another question.

We now have a 3 event rule for members within 50KM and represent the club on at least one occasion outside 50 KM. This will be part of the audit.

[chris1983rangie]

thanks all for your comments, its quite important that the system is not abused and i am fully aware of that. my vehicle is currently on CH plates and will go on full rego because i want to go by the books and do the right thing. this way i can do as i wish with commercial use tv film hire, etc.

problem solved no hassels

cheers,

Chris;)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

thanks all for your comments, its quite important that the system is not abused and i am fully aware of that. my vehicle is currently on CH plates and will go on full rego because i want to go by the books and do the right thing. this way i can do as i wish with commercial use tv film hire, etc.

problem solved no hassels

cheers,

Chris;)
Chris

If it's only a single event, you may be able to use it on an unregistered vehicle permit. You could also talk to your insurance company to see about getting additional cover for the filming.

In NSW other uses for community events or benefit etc are permitted, provided it's not for hire or reward (reimbursement of expenses is O.K.) but still need to be authorised by the Club's registrar. ANZAC day is a classic example, LROC Sydney does not have a "trip" to ANZAC Day, but I would always authorise a member who wished to attend. Similarly someone could also use the car for their daughter's wedding or prom if authorised by the registrar.

Depending on the film, it may be considered a documentary of "community benefit" and fit in with the CP rules. You need to ask your club registrar and the RTA etc.

[blackbuttdisco]

For owners in Queeensland, all the correct info is on the Queensland Transport website. Be good if the rules were the same Australia wide, but that is probably too easy. I know bloke in Adelaide who had to remove the 3 Webers from his Triumph TR6 as it was not deemed original. Otherwise he had to go on full rego.

[Mick_Marsh]

Chris

If it's only a single event, you may be able to use it on an unregistered vehicle permit. You could also talk to your insurance company to see about getting additional cover for the filming.

In NSW other uses for community events or benefit etc are permitted, provided it's not for hire or reward (reimbursement of expenses is O.K.) but still need to be authorised by the Club's registrar. ANZAC day is a classic example, LROC Sydney does not have a "trip" to ANZAC Day, but I would always authorise a member who wished to attend. Similarly someone could also use the car for their daughter's wedding or prom if authorised by the registrar.

Depending on the film, it may be considered a documentary of "community benefit" and fit in with the CP rules. You need to ask your club registrar and the RTA etc.
In Victoria, you definitely cannot use an unregistered vehicle permit for purposes other than road testing or uses associated with getting it roadworthy and registered.

An Unregistered Vehicle Permit (UVP) allows you to drive an unregistered vehicle with some conditions. It is not a temporary registration. Your vehicle must be safe for use on the road and you must follow the permit conditions.


Conditions
You generally cannot drive between 7:00pm and 7:00am with an unregistered vehicle permit.
An unregistered vehicle permit cannot be issued if:



your vehicle is under suspension
your vehicle is registered
there is an uncleared defect notice on your vehicle.

Registrations are very different from state to state. For example, in Victoria, we do not need to register a trailer if it is less than 3m long, less than the width of the towing vehicle and 750kg GVM or less. We have an exempt trailer plate. Take this trailer to NSW and they fine you for using an unregistered trailer.

In relation to using unregistered vehicles in movies and community events, that is covered under whatever agreement the movie company or event organiser has made with the local council. I drove my car through Treasury Gardens once. The police couldn't touch me because I had permission from the Melbourne City Council.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

For owners in Queeensland, all the correct info is on the Queensland Transport website. Be good if the rules were the same Australia wide, but that is probably too easy. I know bloke in Adelaide who had to remove the 3 Webers from his Triumph TR6 as it was not deemed original. Otherwise he had to go on full rego.South Australia is the most pedantic of all the eastern states and I don't think that WA is reciprocal with the east.

In NSW commercial vehicles including Land Rovers are permitted to have "period engine replacements" if they were accepted by the authorities at the time. So Holden engines are O.K in NSW, in South Australia if you replaced the seat vinyl with a cloth trim it wouldn't be acceptable.

A lot of the interpretation in NSW is left to the individual club, e.g. the historic racing car club will accept engine and suspension modifications if the vehicle was raced in that configuration during the vehicles original "racing" life. The RTA doesn't want to go this deep.

Diana

[Tusker]

The differences & anomalies were worse before the national scheme..

Pretty sure the cheap fee is insurance related. In NSW, one ins co does all the compulsory third party for club plates. Or used to anyway.

The golden rule with club plates is no daily commuting. That puts insurance up a category. Commercial use puts it up again.

Regards
Max P

[Mick_Marsh]

I have heard that the minister has approved the changes to the classic/historic vehicle permit scheme.

I don't know what the latest changes that were approved were but here's a link for those who are interested.

AOMC (http://www.aomc.asn.au/logbook.htm)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Mick

Personally I'm not in favour of the new Vic scheme. While I like the idea of a log book, it is not designed to assist motoring enthusiasts and is merely a scheme where people who only drive on the weekends can have a registered vehicle cheap.

Under the current scheme in NSW (as I would if I lived in Vic) I have all the roadworthy ones registered and choose which one I'll take to a particular event. For the real collectors, it will come down to which of the collection you will register this year, as with increased costs you can not register them all. After all I can not drive more than one at a time.

[Mick_Marsh]

Mick

Personally I'm not in favour of the new Vic scheme. While I like the idea of a log book, it is not designed to assist motoring enthusiasts and is merely a scheme where people who only drive on the weekends can have a registered vehicle cheap.

Under the current scheme in NSW (as I would if I lived in Vic) I have all the roadworthy ones registered and choose which one I'll take to a particular event. For the real collectors, it will come down to which of the collection you will register this year, as with increased costs you can not register them all. After all I can not drive more than one at a time.
Your choice. As long as it's within the road rules, It's ok.

With the Victorian scheme, all the motoring clubs affiliated with the AOMC and other interested parties had their chance for input. Some did. The minister has approved (to be confirmed). It will be in the road rules. People will be allowed to do it if they choose to. The old scheme will no longer apply.

It's not up to me. I'm just the messenger. Thought others would be interested.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Your choice. As long as it's within the road rules, It's ok.
<snip>
It's not up to me. I'm just the messenger. Thought others would be interested.Mick

I'm not having a go at you, it's just my opinion.

I can see there will be plenty of people who will abuse the scheme and in the end and the Governments want for money will remove it altogether and we'll all be back on full rego.

It will be a case of lets watch all the states follow suit!

[101RRS]

That link indicates a vehicle can be used for "Events" up to 90 days per year. I am surprised it does not say "Club Events" - so does any related document clarify what an "Event" is. Under the current system it is clearly a club authorised event (basically you need some sort of club approval to use your car with the exception of the test drive/maintenance rule) but there ios now this new system so do the same rules apply - if so the 90 day rule is a backward step. However, if you can now use your car for events as determined by yourself then in many respects the system is better but will be abused.

Garry

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Garry

I know that I can only speak for NSW, however the NSW Historic Conditional Registration Scheme allows HCRS vehicles to attend events of community benefit outside the Recognised Club's own events.

Basically the local RSL can contact our Club's registrar and request vehicles for ANZAC day, or the sports car club may receive a request for vehicles for the footy teams grand final parade etc. So long as it's not for hire or reward the club can approve the event for member's vehicles.

Taking the clubs out of the scenario, taking a load of rubbish to the tip becomes an approved event.

Diana

[Mick_Marsh]

Mick

I'm not having a go at you, it's just my opinion.

I can see there will be plenty of people who will abuse the scheme and in the end and the Governments want for money will remove it altogether and we'll all be back on full rego.

It will be a case of lets watch all the states follow suit!
Didn't think you were.
You're right in that people will abuse the new scheme as people abused the old scheme.
This new scheme is more useful to me. I may put the Mercedes on it as I would be lucky to drive it twice a month.
You also have to look into the registration process of the different states.
You don't want to run out of rego in Vic. Amongst other things, I had to replace a perfectly good windscreen on the Mercedes because there was a small chip where the rego sticker is. I now don't have to get another roadworthy again as long as I own the car.
The NSW system checks them sensibly each year (or so I understand). Is the car safe? Yes. Here's the pink slip mate. (or is it blue?)
SA, you pay a late fee and it's registered. I had a car over there that I only registered for six months of each year.

[Bigbjorn]

I did a mornings training with Qld. Transport for club dating officers, who have to do the certification for applications for Special Interest registration.My understanding is that an "Authorised Event" need not be an event organised and run by your club. It can be an event run by any of the clubs accepted by QT. The procedure for getting authorisation to attend another club's event is to ask your club committee to authorise such attendance. This should be in the minutes of a club or committee meeting and published in the Club newsletter. I would move a motion at a club meeting that the committee consider and authorise the request. This will be recorded in the minutes. Take copies of the minutes and the newsletter with you. I would do this always. The world is full of half-smart coppers and pedantic transport officers who seem to love questioning the use of SI reg. vehicles.

A log book scheme is wide open to abuse. Same as truck driver's log books were. You don't fill in the time, date or destination until you are pulled over. If not pulled over for a log book check then that page can be used until you are.

There are plenty of people in the hobby, unfortunately, who do and will abuse any scheme. These are the ones who may eventually cause the cancellation of the SI scheme on the grounds of excessive abuse.

[101RRS]

Garry

I know that I can only speak for NSW, however the NSW Historic Conditional Registration Scheme allows HCRS vehicles to attend events of community benefit outside the Recognised Club's own events.

Basically the local RSL can contact our Club's registrar and request vehicles for ANZAC day, or the sports car club may receive a request for vehicles for the footy teams grand final parade etc. So long as it's not for hire or reward the club can approve the event for member's vehicles.



Exactly under the current scheme a vehicle can be used for any event as long as it is approved in one way or another by the club. The wording of the new Vic system implies that it is up to the owner as long as not more than 90 days per year are used.

This would be great for me but I know it will be abused by others - my 101 is on full registration but under the new Vic scheme I would be better putting it on historic plates and continue to use it as I do now - including going to the dump - as it would be used about 90 days a year.

Garry

[Mick_Marsh]

That link indicates a vehicle can be used for "Events" up to 90 days per year. I am surprised it does not say "Club Events" - so does any related document clarify what an "Event" is. Under the current system it is clearly a club authorised event (basically you need some sort of club approval to use your car with the exception of the test drive/maintenance rule) but there ios now this new system so do the same rules apply - if so the 90 day rule is a backward step. However, if you can now use your car for events as determined by yourself then in many respects the system is better but will be abused.

Garry
Yes Gary.
My understanding is it does not have to be a club event. As was explained to me, if you wanted to take it on a sunny Sunday afternoon drive, that would be an event. If you wanted to fuel it up the day before, that would also be an event.
I think too many people were taking their pride and joys on a road trip and claiming road testing or something like that. There were also clubs poping up on the internet in which you put in where you wanted to go and called it a club trip.
It may be abused but it can only be abused for up to 90 days a year (I would have preferred the 45 day proposal but that's just me.)
Don't forget the book has to be filled out before you travel otherwise suffer the consequences.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The problem comes up that you never know how many days in a year you will use the vehicle for authorised events. 90 days is an artificial number invented by insurance actuaries. Most years the vehicle will only be on the road for a few days, my Inter Mk3 has only been on the road for 3 days since last rego. Next year may be quite different, you want to go on the "Back to the Track" in an old Blitz and you're doing it from Melbourne, so you take a week to get from Melbourne to Brisbane then the trip to the top end and back takes another month so half of your 90 days have gone. Then you decide to go on a "Driving to D Day event" a once in a lifetime opportunity. You go Turkey, Greece, Crete and get to Italy when your 90 days is up! You can't drive it to Normandy so the trips wasted.

You ship the vehicle back to Oz, then you can't attend Battle for Australia Day in Melbourne, no Rememberance day, no ANZAC Day (where you can run over people in Flinders Street) and you can't go to Corowa Swim-In.

Next year the old blitz is back to being driven for less than 21 days.