"Freedom of Information"

[JDNSW]

A few days ago the SMH received the results of an FOI inquiry about the government's secret talks with ISPs on how to record all your on line activities and keep the data for posterity.

The document received had almost everything blacked out except the page numbers.

Does anyone else wonder what the government is trying to do that needs to be kept from the public?

See - Data retention: Got nothing to hide? | EFA (http://www.efa.org.au/2010/07/23/data-retention-secrecy/)

John

[olbod]

John, red and socialist regimes always collect and like to keep secret
files on everyone. East Germany was a good example that came to light
after it fell.

Our current socialist government are hell bent on changing our constitution. They have already ruled out the citizens having any rights.

Red raggers and supporters will claim that I am being a little extreme
in my comments. Time will tell.

I also wonder how Australians will cope with being ruled by muslims.
We have begun to head in that direction.

Fortunately, I will probably be long dead.

Cheers, I think.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

What a load of old rubbish Olbod!

Geez I get over "reds under the beds" conspiracy theorists.

The right wing GW Bush and Howard governments removed more rights than you can poke a stick at.

The US Patriot Act - US men having domestic disputes with ex-wives were charged under it for terrorism.
Howard reinforced sedition legislation not used since the second world war.

BTW under ESCHELON the Australian, Canadian, New Zealand, UK and US Governments have been eavesdropping on our communications since the Menzies Government in the early 1960's. And for those who don't remember Robert Menzies was a Liberal Prime Minister.

[DiscoStew]

So Joh Bjelke was a commo then?

I think you are mixing up communism and fascism.

According to the "political compass" Gandhi is almost as left wing as Stalin.
Political Compass - Analysis (http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2)

[Chucaro]

.........
Our current socialist government........... :eek::confused:
Socialist???? there are more members in the ALP that are more to the right than in the Liberal party
What are then the goverments in Brazil, Uruguay,etc, extreme communist :eek:

[olbod]

As I said, time will tell.

I realise that socialism in this country is now the accepted norm and we are quite happy to be dictated to by the unions behind the scenes.
Look how long we have had labour state governments.
Look at how much we have lost and how we have to have so many permits to travel in our country and how much of the country we are denied access too !!!
Comrades, I learnt the other day that if I park my car on a street or public place and leave it unlocked and go more than three metres from it, I can be charged and fined.
Farmers no longer own their own land to do with what they will, to
to look after it and make a good living !! There are many many rules now
telling them what they are not alowed to do and I am not talking about
water usage.

I dont have to like it or accept it and look at the hoo har and crap and denial that takes place when anyone dares to bring it to the fore.
Rage, conspirisy theories, put downs.
Thirty years ago I would not have believed it could happen to us.

By the way Ming is still my Hero, so get it inya !!

The yanks will shoot anyone in back to keep itself safe and most of us know what I feel about those SOB's.

What ever you like to call it, socialism is still socialism and you have the right to embrace it and be happy as larry. Poor Buggers.

Cheers.

[DiscoStew]

As I said, time will tell.
The yanks will shoot anyone in back to keep itself safe and most of us know what I feel about those SOB's.

What ever you like to call it, socialism is still socialism and you have the right to embrace it and be happy as larry. Poor Buggers.

Cheers.

The yanks are socialists? Yikes :Thump:

Not a lot of point arguing this one.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The yanks are socialists? Yikes :Thump:

Not a lot of point arguing this one.So the septics were the reds under their own beds! Ah Ha now it makes sense.

I need to travel to Melbourne tomorrow, is it be too late to get a permit? Where do I go to apply?

[abaddonxi]

So Joh Bjelke was a commo then?

I think you are mixing up communism and fascism.

According to the "political compass" Gandhi is almost as left wing as Stalin.
Political Compass - Analysis (http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2)

Thanks, haven't looked at that one for a while. Interesting read.

[olbod]

The yanks are socialists? Yikes :Thump:

Not a lot of point arguing this one.



Stew, I didn't say or even suggest that the yanks were socialists.
What I did say was that I think they are assholes !!!

Something else to add to this debate. I recieved this in a newsletter today. The full articule is in the Qld Country Life.
If it doesn't suggest socialism being administered I will eat an old boot.
Remember comrades, citizens dont count. The state is the only
important thing.

Surely I cannot be the only person on this site that is worried about the labour and green pollies getting their hands on our constitution ?

Cheers.

[olbod]

Sorry, I forgot to add the attachment. Doh.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Stew, I didn't say or even suggest that the yanks were socialists.
What I did say was that I think they are assholes !!! No you actually said:"
The yanks will shoot anyone in back to keep itself safe " alleging that the septics were tantamount to Stalin, (a communist).

I recieved this in a newsletter today. The full articule is in the Qld Country Life.
If it doesn't suggest socialism being administered I will eat an old boot.
Remember comrades, citizens dont count. well we know for sure that Fairfax media is not communist then is it?
I realise that socialism in this country is now the accepted norm and we are quite happy to be dictated to by the unions behind the scenes.
Now comrad Ollbod just like in Stalinist Russia and Siberia, I'm afraid that the Austapo will be coming around to your place today and arresting you for sedition (re-introduced by Howard) and you will be sent for re-programming in some totalitarian outpost of the country - oops you're already in Queensland that had the (right wing) dictator of Joh the Jerky Peanut for years. sorry you can stay at home. Good buddy comrad!

Look how long we have had labour state governments.
Look at how much we have lost and how we have to have so many permits to travel in our country and how much of the country we are denied access too !!!What have we lost?

Where do I need a permit?

If you are talking about park permits, they have been in for scores of years. There are now more National Parks. Other permits: The difference now is that the Arnhem land permits are now managed by the traditional owners of the land instead of the central government (decentralising? now that's always been a communist activity - NOT)

Build a bridge and stop reading right-wing media if it scares you that much!

[RecMec]

I dread that red head frump becoming PM. Funny thing, couple of blokes I
know are members of CFMEU and reckon things can only get better.

I asked them how they felt about their Union donating to the ALP and the ALP getting into bed with the Watermelon Nazis, the same ones who want to screw forestry and mining jobs. It's gonna take those two dudes a day or three to get over that shock. Cheers.;)

[Bigbjorn]

Johannes Bjelke-Petersen was a crook, plain and simple. No political agenda other than what made money for Johannes. Organised corruption through all levels of government in Qld. Particularly those shire councils controlled by very senior members and governors of the National Party.

[JDNSW]

I think that the question of what type (right, left, corrupt etc) of government you favour, or think we have, or have had in the past, is not really relevant to my original post.

What we see in this is a government that is clearly up to something, otherwise they would not be trying to keep it secret. This is behaviour you can get from governments of any political persuasion. Although it is a bit rich coming from a government that trumpeted "open government".

John

[olbod]

Andy, what can I say ?
Your replies are so frofound and deep, its way above me.

Your reference to the yanks is priceless
Your reference to the Fairfax media is childish.
You seem reluctant to acknowledge the message contained within those non communist pages ?

I am sorry if my observations shake up or rattle your complacensey,
I can only put it down to my pre election excitment.
Somrtimes tho, little home truths need to be faced with bravery, you
cannot deny peoples or parties ideoligical leanings. Attemps at humour
do not alter any facts.

Mate, you must not try to blame johny howard for everything, you expect that from a hardcore Irish union rep, not an intelectual.
To be fair tho it must be said that johnny could not be called a buffoon
or one of the boys amongst the workers. Nor could it be said that he
was a frontman or stooge for the unions. You would have to brand him as being his own man. He was never out the front leading a May Day march, the swine. How un Australian.
By the way, I never liked him either !!!
Take the case of the recession that we had to have, that was not Johns fault it was ours.
The worlds Greatest treasurer wanted to spend $20,000 of our money
to buy a new table for him to eat his corn flakes off. We said No.
Well, didn't we get a bashing, cost us billions.

Andy I am not frightened of anything. Socialist pollies, capitalism,
globalisation, recessions, nothing ruffles me or prevents me from going my own way. I am quite capable and happy to live off the land and sleep under a humpy.

There has been one thing this week tho that has shaken me about,
which I shall share in another more serious post.

You mention permits. We must seek more and more permits to move around our country and in a lot of cases its not clear what we get for our money.
You dont comment on the fact that we are denied access to so much
of the country, bit here, bit there.
You ask what we have lost, well, perhaps you might be a little young to
be able to make any valued judements.

You mention permits to enter Aboriginal land. I have no quarrel with that,
I am all in favour. I wish sometimes that I could do the same.
You see I have lots and lots of Aboriginal inlaw inlaws.
Whenever Betty and I have been down to sydney or Cobar or Wilcania,
or Kangaroo Island and other places, we alway stay with our Aboriginal
family or friends. Never with any of us white honkies, we stay in a motel or caravan park by choice otherwise.
You mentioned Arnam Land, by cripes if I could uproot myself and live there, I would be off in a flash !!!

Anyway to wrap it up, I was talking to a fellow LR owner on Monday.
He said that there was no way that the ginger horror was going to get
his old D1 clunker.
I said me too. In fact when it is nearing my time to turn up me toes, I am
going to drive off into the Simpson Desert, park under a Mulga tree and rest in peace.
He said that sounds like a great idea, so when I get there could I send him the coordinates and he would join me when his time comes.
If any of you would also like the same coordinates, let me know.
Make sure you get one of John Howards Sth Australian desert park
permits first tho or they might throw you out.

Cheers.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

You colour me red.

Do not worry about a communist take over of Australia: Both labour and liberal are as bad as each other.

We don't need permits to travel around Australia: We only need permits to enter certain parts of Australia, usually they are national parks.

The other places you can't enter, permit or no permit is private land: If you do enter it without permission it is called trespass.

Remember it was Howard who removed your weapons from you!

My greatest fear is that we live in a parliamentary monarchy without any Bill of Rights. The only right we actually have is the chance to elect a set of politicians who will dictate us for the next three or four years.

Don't be misled that we live in a democracy.

[Bigbjorn]

I think that the question of what type (right, left, corrupt etc) of government you favour, or think we have, or have had in the past, is not really relevant to my original post.

What we see in this is a government that is clearly up to something, otherwise they would not be trying to keep it secret. This is behaviour you can get from governments of any political persuasion. Although it is a bit rich coming from a government that trumpeted "open government".

John

JD, I have a friend whose (first) father-in-law was a third generation Canberra Mandarin of high rank. The old chap was a true gentleman and a public servant of the highest integrity. He despised political appointees and maintained that the public service had to fearlessly and impartially advise the government of the day.

He was absolutely appalled by the introduction of Freedom of Information believing passionately that the business of government was the government's business and no one elses. He maintained that no good could possibly come of allowing the public and in particular "muck-raking journalists" access to the governments records.

In my DSS days we received an occasional FOI request commonly from people in dispute with the Dept. & who believed there were secret documents in their file being used against them. Anyone going to an Appeals Tribunal or the Federal Court received the same documents as the DPP under disclosure so they were barking up the wrong tree.

Others would just say "I want to see my file". The FOI officer would then ask what documents in the file they wished to access. If no sensible answer, the FOIO would write to them saying "your file contains xxxxx documents, xx are purely data processing documents or coding sheets, xx were provided by you and you may see these, xx refer to other people and you may not see these."

Commonly the client wanted to see the file in the hope of finding out who "dobbed them in". This was never going to happen.

[JohnF]

During the 2000AD Sydney Olympics and during the Pope's visit it was illegal to give out printed material in Sydney without permission. I joined 20 others and went down to Sydney and gave out illegal material, a booklet called "the Pope's Letter and Sunday Laws" by Dr. Russel and Colin Standish, both brilliant graduates from Sydney University Russel died a while ago in a road accident.

I could have been arrested and jailed for breaking that unconstitutional law but was not, as I think the government of that time did not want the publicity of this law being challenged as unconstitutional [would have been challenged under section 116 of the Australian Constitution], but this law caused many others to be too scared to give out there materials.

During the Pope's visit I illegally distributed material in Sydney also, and would have challenged that law in court if arrested [Australian Constitution section 116].

Laws can be introduced but sit on the books for future governments to enforce when the agenda is far enough advanced. And that their is an agenda is provable.

[Disco44]

Johannes Bjelke-Petersen was a crook, plain and simple. No political agenda other than what made money for Johannes. Organised corruption through all levels of government in Qld. Particularly those shire councils controlled by very senior members and governors of the National Party.

Yes Brian how right you are.He even had his own army, the Police, who incidentally had their boss jailed for 13 years as were some of his pollies.I've been busting to get my say on this thread but I've had my hands full kicking reds from underneath my bed.:p

[Bigbjorn]

Yes Brian how right you are.He even had his own army, the Police, who incidentally had their boss jailed for 13 years as were some of his pollies.I've been busting to get my say on this thread but I've had my hands full kicking reds from underneath my bed.:p

What about the Menzies "Red Mare" he used to bring out and ride around at election times.

[VladTepes]

Socialist, Fascists, Muslims whatever - it's EXTREMISTS of any kind that are the problem

My favourite term is for the likes of Bob Brown and Lee Rhiannon et al.

Watermelons.. "Green on the outside but Red at heart"

[olbod]

You colour me red.

Do not worry about a communist take over of Australia: Both labour and liberal are as bad as each other.

We don't need permits to travel around Australia: We only need permits to enter certain parts of Australia, usually they are national parks.

The other places you can't enter, permit or no permit is private land: If you do enter it without permission it is called trespass.

Remember it was Howard who removed your weapons from you!

My greatest fear is that we live in a parliamentary monarchy without any Bill of Rights. The only right we actually have is the chance to elect a set of politicians who will dictate us for the next three or four years.

Don't be misled that we live in a democracy.

Andy, I dont brand you any colour, I dont know you.
Nor am I worried about a communist take over, thats not what I have been suggesting.
Communism in its true form was just a passing absurdity that was doomed to fail.
Reds under the bed etc. was put away as a threat years ago.
No, the spin off today is socialism, I dont like it in any shape or form.
It can and does quitely restrict and remove our freedoms. The people
that seem to be blind to this dont look outside the square and see the encroachment as normal. Do I really care ? Not at all but I do find it
interesting.
I heard on the news this evening that Gordon Tallis bought a block of land somewhere and proceeded to remove fourteen tree's to prepare the building sight. Oh my God. He was fined $12000 and made to replant new tree's. I dont know what he is going to do about his house. To me that smacks of big brother or in this case sister, putting him in his place. Thing is, the followers wont see anything wrong with these laws or question them !!!
I am certainly not being misled about us living in a Democracy, thats what I have been trying to point out.
I know all parties are almost the same but some are not dictated too by the unions. They are another pet dislike of mine and always have been.

I dont forget what John Howard done, as I said I didnt like him.

Another little snippet to stir the pot and bring the unwashed wrath down
upon my head. Aint this fun.
After the second world war, Mr Whitlam used to stand outside the gates at Fairfield railway station and hand out communist propaganda pamphlets. He lived just up the road toward Cabramatta. My family
thought this funny that a grown man could be so silly and used to save said pamphlets.
If we misbehaved when working the farm, Grandpa would threaten us
with a pamphlet and say we would be sent to russia if we didn't shape up.
I am told that even today he still calls his mates comrade.
Today he is revered as an elder statesmen and a passed great achiever.
Crikey !! God bless the Queen, eh.

A lot of places we are denied access to are not just private property.
In parks and forrests all over the country, gates are being closed off
and have been declared a no go zone.
At times, it has been complained about on this Forum.

I am more worried about the labor party ( who are now having their short
and curlies pulled by the greens ), get their hands on our constitution
and denying us even more. It was keating wasn't it that even wanted to abolish the States.
Ginger has had to do a deal with the greens to try and win the election.
Can you imagine what that means if they hold the balance of power !!!

Interesting days ahead, eh.

[wanglemoose]

All sides of the government spend millions of dollars of our tax money trying to tell the people of this country how they are going to make it a better place, and as soon as they gain power they just go and do what ever the hell they want.

It doesn't matter what party is in rule no one can say we truly live in a free country. If this was a free country then why do we not have the right not to vote without getting fined. Why cant we legally modify our cars beyond the point that some bureaucrat thinks is safe. I mean no one can deny that a race car with big brakes, big tyres a full roll cage and harnesses is the safest way to travel for who ever is driving it, yet try getting something like that registered. We have to pay registration to use the roads our tax dollars are supposed to pay for and then pay toll's as well.

Then move on to the current laws passed about bikey groups not being allowed to gather in their colors. They say it's to try to stop the violence caused by these "big bad bikeys" but it is just the first step towards the old days of Hitler and the nazies, "every one not in the nazi party is an enemy of germany and needs to be exterminated".

George Bush set it out for global domination perfectly, "we are waging a war on terror". In other words any person that doesn't believe in the same things that they do is automatically a "terrorist", which gives them the reasoning they need to exterminate any opposition.

Well that's my rant for the day, it is only my own opinion and if you don't agree I'm not going to force you to, that's the governments job.:nazibanned:

cheers
mick

[DeeJay]

[QUOTE=Lotz-A-Landies;1299997]

The other places you can't enter, permit or no permit is private land: If you do enter it without permission it is called trespass.


Not really correct, there is an implied permission providing you have a reason. Apart from asking the owner to buy something, I can think of plenty,
I'm looking for my dog
A $50.000 note blew out of my hand to "over there"
Etc - You get the idea, the exception would be if there was a big fence or trespass signs, then its clear you are not to enter.
Of course, if the land owner asks you to leave, you need to take the shortest or most practical way out. It is, after all, a free country..

[John W]

In case some of you have not noticed there are over 20 million of us in just this country. There is no such thing as no limits rights and never will be while there is more than just one of us on this earth. Start thinking responsibility for a change. From the beginning (pre virtual world time) we are a social species so is it any surprise that you can find elements of socialism in our laws and regulations. And yes, I do not believe in anyone being able to do anything they like on "their" land if that activity destroys what is there without reference to the wishes of the rest of the community (planning & environmental law) The traditional concept of being custodians of this land needs to become mainstream. & How many making gripes about socialism are drawing government pensions aged or disability? If so then your obviously a socialist, need I say more. Go get a real job.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The other places you can't enter, permit or no permit is private land: If you do enter it without permission it is called trespass.
Not really correct, there is an implied permission providing you have a reason. Apart from asking the owner to buy something, I can think of plenty,
I'm looking for my dog
A $50.000 note blew out of my hand to "over there"
Etc - You get the idea, the exception would be if there was a big fence or trespass signs, then its clear you are not to enter.
Of course, if the land owner asks you to leave, you need to take the shortest or most practical way out. It is, after all, a free country..If you were in my backyard without permission, $50 note or not, I'd be having you charged. The only right you have to enter private land is via an open front gate proceeding directly to the front door. A locked gate or a fence and your right of entry ends at the boundary.

I don't need a "No trespass" sign, that is what is implied by PRIVATE proverty.

[akelly]

Something that really bugs me about the internets is the lunies that can only see things from their POV. I'll give you a couple of examples:

1. Shrill whining about "closed gates" in national parks. You only have to watch 5 min of youtube "extreme 4x4 action" type stuff to see why these gates are being closed - idiots are trashing the place.

2. Race cars are super-safe, why cant we drive them on the road? Have you seen some of the ****house workmanship getting around on "modified" cars? Bogged up chassis, mismatching wheel tracks, dangerous fuel tank mods... the list goes on. That's why you are obliged to have your mods checked by an engineer - to make sure you aren't about to kill youself or someone else with your bird**** welding technique that is holding your rustbucket together.

3. Closed off fishing grounds are the work of nazis... Overfishing by shonky "commercial" fisherman has decimated species in some areas. As a result the govt has to put in place draconian measures to stop the lowest common denominator from ruining it for everyone.

I could go on, but there is little point. This thread is dead anyway - killed off by "wanglemoose" who invoked Godwins Law by using Hitler and the Nazis as an example.

For the uninitiated, see here Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)

Cheers,

Adam

[V8Ian]

So Joh Bjelke was a commo then?

I think you are mixing up communism and fascism.

According to the "political compass" Gandhi is almost as left wing as Stalin.
Political Compass - Analysis (http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2)
He even had a Special Branch that spied upon and kept secret records on everyone who may not agree with JBP's views.

[Disco44]

He even had a Special Branch that spied upon and kept secret records on everyone who may not agree with JBP's views.

Right you are Ian.Nothing has ever disappeared so fast as the files held by The Special Branch when Wayne Goss won power in 1989.Did you know one of Joh's jailed pollies Don Lane ( Liberal turned National MP)was a member of the special branch before he became an MP.

[V8Ian]

Yes mate, the 'Honourable' Member for Merthyr. ;)

[V8Ian]

Joh was once asked what he understood about the separation of powers, he was totally bewildered, had never even heard the term. :o

[Sprint]

Conroy dubbed dumbest pollie in survey (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/election2010/7938248/conroy-dubbed-dumbest-pollie-in-survey)

what a revelation!

[Bigbjorn]

Yes mate, the 'Honourable' Member for Merthyr. ;)

This icehole turned up at a funeral during the 1987 (I think) state election campaign to do some gladhanding and electioneering. Might have been '86.

The funeral was that of Brian (Blackjack) Eldridge, a player in the 1955 Valleys undefeated premiership team, a life member of Valleys, a former long serving Engineering Union delegate at the New Farm CSR refinery, a devoted and hard working member of the ALP who despised Lane. Lane was quite p'd off at people turning their backs on him, refusing his hand, in a couple of cases spitting on his shoes. Blackjack's son had to be physically restrained from thumping him. George Dziewicki, Secretary of Valleys, was one of the restrainers, saying "He's not worth it. Leave it."

[Disco44]

This icehole turned up at a funeral during the 1987 (I think) state election campaign to do some gladhanding and electioneering. Might have been '86.

The funeral was that of Brian (Blackjack) Eldridge, a player in the 1955 Valleys undefeated premiership team, a life member of Valleys, a former long serving Engineering Union delegate at the New Farm CSR refinery, a devoted and hard working member of the ALP who despised Lane. Lane was quite p'd off at people turning their backs on him, refusing his hand, in a couple of cases spitting on his shoes. Blackjack's son had to be physically restrained from thumping him. George Dziewicki, Secretary of Valleys, was one of the restrainers, saying "He's not worth it. Leave it."

I knew George he was a good bloke.
When Don Lane was the minister for transport ( I think that was his portfolio) and I was still a firefighter we had a fuel train derail halfway up the Little Liverpool Range near Laidley.Lane arrived by helicopter the next day and had to climb through a barbed wire fence to get to the wreck.Halfway through he was attacked by wasps .Guess what, not one hand was raised to help him..that's how much he was disliked( hated would be a better word )by all of the services attending to that incident.
NUFF SAID.

[Bigbjorn]

I knew George he was a good bloke.
When Don Lane was the minister for transport ( I think that was his portfolio) and I was still a firefighter we had a fuel train derail halfway up the Little Liverpool Range near Laidley.Lane arrived by helicopter the next day and had to climb through a barbed wire fence to get to the wreck.Halfway through he was attacked by wasps .Guess what, not one hand was raised to help him..that's how much he was disliked( hated would be a better word )by all of the services attending to that incident.
NUFF SAID.

George died last week, age 77. His funeral was today.

[Disco44]

George died last week, age 77. His funeral was today.

Thats a real shame he was ,as I said,a good bloke Vale to him.Thanks for letting me know,
John.

[Bigbjorn]

Thats a real shame he was ,as I said,a good bloke Vale to him.Thanks for letting me know,
John.

Yes, indeed, he was a good bloke. He devoted much of his life to Valleys and was deservedly a life member. Did you know that he had just about the best handwriting I ever saw from a man?

The ranks are thinning. Not many of us genuine Valley Diehards remaining. The Valley Old Boys Club, once prestigious and influential, has been defunct for at least a decade even after lowering the entry requirements to having merely been a player or official. In the 50's-60's you had to have been a seven season player to become an Old Boy