HELP! Anyone raised a PUMA? Big TROUBLE!!!

[povman]

The story so far!

Bought a brand new Puma 110 for future family trips out bush and was advised by Land Rover to use ARB for my accessories.....
Off to ARB for the usual upgrades, Bullbar, winch, suspension etc...
Picked up the car and started driving home only to notice a loud clacking noise from under the bonnet whenever I backed off the accelerator. Rang ARB soon as I got home and had to take it back up there for assessment......
Long story short, ARB claimed "Problem not caused by their suspension?" Advised to take back to Land Rover....Off to Land Rover I go....
Told that the transfer case bearing had disintegrated and need to order a new one from England. Keeping in mind we are going on a 7 week around Australia driving trip in 3 weeks!!!!
Got the call from Land Rover today and told the new transfer case has been fitted and tested it out and bang, same problem immediately.....
Got the phone call from LR and told that it's the suspension that ARB have installed and that is the cause and while your at it, it's a $4500 part that LR now aren't willing to cover by warranty!!!!
Rang ARB and at the moment they don't believe their suspension is the cause of the problem and obviously don't want to pay the bill.....
Now, ARB are trying to rectify the problem and sort out once and for all who or what is at fault and in the mean time, I'm with out my new Deefer and my holiday is getting closer everyday....
My advice and question for you good people is:
Has anyone successfully lifted a Puma and how did you do it? Mines only lifted 40mm by the way!
Advice: Please take all considerations into account if you plan on lifting a Puma as I thought I did by taking it to a reputable company.
I'm putting my faith in ARB to get it sorted, but will keep you all posted....

Unhappy Povman.:(

[spudboy]

That's a bad story & sorry to hear it. 40mm is hardly severe.

Will be watching this thread with interest.

[Shonky]

I dunno first hand, but I have heard of more than one Puma owner on here having issues with lifting.

Do a search and see what comes up. ;)

[5teve]

Give Allan a shout... i beleive he took everything off his puma as he had noise issues... but i dont think there was damage..?

Steve

[Allan]

The story so far!

Bought a brand new Puma 110 for future family trips out bush and was advised by Land Rover to use ARB for my accessories.....
Off to ARB for the usual upgrades, Bullbar, winch, suspension etc...
Picked up the car and started driving home only to notice a loud clacking noise from under the bonnet whenever I backed off the accelerator. Rang ARB soon as I got home and had to take it back up there for assessment......
Long story short, ARB claimed "Problem not caused by their suspension?" Advised to take back to Land Rover....Off to Land Rover I go....
Told that the transfer case bearing had disintegrated and need to order a new one from England. Keeping in mind we are going on a 7 week around Australia driving trip in 3 weeks!!!!
Got the call from Land Rover today and told the new transfer case has been fitted and tested it out and bang, same problem immediately.....
Got the phone call from LR and told that it's the suspension that ARB have installed and that is the cause and while your at it, it's a $4500 part that LR now aren't willing to cover by warranty!!!!
Rang ARB and at the moment they don't believe their suspension is the cause of the problem and obviously don't want to pay the bill.....
Now, ARB are trying to rectify the problem and sort out once and for all who or what is at fault and in the mean time, I'm with out my new Deefer and my holiday is getting closer everyday....
My advice and question for you good people is:
Has anyone successfully lifted a Puma and how did you do it? Mines only lifted 40mm by the way!
Advice: Please take all considerations into account if you plan on lifting a Puma as I thought I did by taking it to a reputable company.
I'm putting my faith in ARB to get it sorted, but will keep you all posted....

Unhappy Povman.:(

Been through this with mine when I first bought it. The problem is the front prop shaft. I had to put it all back to standard height to fix this problem. With the weight of the ARB bar and winch I found the front of the vehicle sagged and this was remedied by LR 130 front springs. After all this drama I also noted that with a 2 inch lift the ARB shock absorbers have very little down travel and you loose almost all your suspension travel. I now use 130 fronts, 110 hd rears and Terra Firma +2inch shocks on mine and I am very happy with the results. I feel for you as I think a company like ARB should be aware of the vehicles they are selling accessories for, the fact is, they don't.

Allan

[spudboy]

So what is causing the transfer case to go bang? Does the 2" lift make the prop angle too severe?

I wouldn't have thought the suspension geometry would have been any different to a TD5 Defender.

[MacFamily]

Thats not good povman hope you get it sorted..

What transfer are they using in the Puma these days?

[Psimpson7]

Transfer case is clocked further around on Puma's but I would have thought that the one good thing about that would be the prop angle.

JohnR on here has lifted his and used it a lot, I believe, with no real issues.

[Allan]

So what is causing the transfer case to go bang? Does the 2" lift make the prop angle too severe?

I wouldn't have thought the suspension geometry would have been any different to a TD5 Defender.

Yes the angle is very different to the TD5. It due to the angle of the transfer box to the front diff as it had to be changed to fit the Ford lump into the chassis. I doubt the box has gone bang, but it does sound like somebody has put a bag of spanners in it when they are lifted. I hope changing the suspention back fixes the problem as $4500 is a lot of money.

Allan

[PAT303]

I find it very hard to believe that a 40mm lift would cause a transfer case to fail immediately. Pat

[Allan]

I find it very hard to believe that a 40mm lift would cause a transfer case to fail immediately. Pat

I think its miss diagnosis. It sounds like the transfer box when they hook up the noise sensors but its the prop shaft. This is why the noise is still there with the new box.

Allan

[miky]

I reckon this has been mentioned before. Lifting the Puma is not good.

Needs a cardan front prop ???

[greenhornet]

Whoa! Povman, what a setback.
I have been enjoying your ‘build up’ and this is a real blow.
We are definitely getting mixed messages re lifting the Puma.
Hasn’t Gav110 lifted his Puma with no issues?
Good luck with the outcome.

[TimNZ]

LRA are being very hard on warranty at the moment, I asked them directly if I could fit the following to my new 110:

ARB bar - OK
Warn 9.5xp - OK
HD front springs - Only genuine LR and to be fitted only by a dealer (NRC9448 Driver NRC9449 Passenger).
CB Radio - OK
Koni Shocks - NO

As others have said the front prop angle at the transfer box is borderline with the vehicle in standard form. If you lift the front of the vehicle off the ground, even in standard form, the uni will bind.

Cheers,

[Drover]

I had fitted 50mm lift OME front springs about 10,000k's ago when the ARB bar and winch were fitted, the front springs lifted it about 40mm in total from standard.

No problems, no noise, no virbrations and certainly no binding of the prop shaft.

Just completed a Simpson Desert trip without incident !

[Allan]

I had fitted 50mm lift OME front springs about 10,000k's ago when the ARB bar and winch were fitted, the front springs lifted it about 40mm in total from standard.

No problems, no noise, no virbrations and certainly no binding of the prop shaft.

Just completed a Simpson Desert trip without incident !

I think its luck of the draw. mine was a shocker, it felt like a wrecker yard bomb.

Allan

[spudboy]

Maybe they've changed the prop shaft spec/supplier along the way.

[Allan]

In hindsight mine got even worse with caster corection bushes, almost un driveable. perhaps the "luck of the draw" is dependant on the chassis you got. Who knows but its a hell of a lottery spin for 2 inches of lift.

Allan

[dullbird]

I warned many people about lifting their puma very early on, I was given a well what do you know!! Which was a fair comment as my vehicle was not lifted however I have had discusions with people that did..

Just so you know every lifted puma I saw at billing had a double Cardon fitted which is what I told a few people on here many moons ago that should really be done. I appreciate there is a couple that have had no dramas. Still I personally think not worth the risk..

I hope you get your troubles sorted Povman, Land Rover playing a very dirty game at the moment in let's pass the blame have been subjected to it my self on more then one occasion it's frustrating when your trying to do the right thing...

[roverrescue]

Surely LR "techs" are not blindly replacing parts without diagnosis first...
Surely being charged hundreds an hour would include some mechanical aptitude...

"I hear a noise, lets just replace the transfercase"
Why not pull the front shaft and take it for a drive first? Before replacing anything.

And why would a "reputable" suspension company not test drive after fitting?

"Automotive mechanics; its not rocket science... it just costs the same!"

Bahhh, the world needs to cloan more JCs and put them in every LR workshop around the country ;)
Steve

[povman]

I find it very hard to believe that a 40mm lift would cause a transfer case to fail immediately. Pat

As soon as I picked up my car and drove it home, the noise was present. Driving it as little as possible until LR took the transfer case apart and found the bearing was destroyed. The uni only binds on itself when the suspension is at full droop.
Will know more today and will keep you helpful people in the loop!
And thanks everyone for your advice and 2 cents worth, much appreciated.:mad:
Povman.

[dullbird]

Povman I think the biggest thing in your favour is that arb were recommended to you by the dealer....

I'm sure you will get it sorted, stay positive don't be frightened by them throwing figures around and most of all stand your ground especially if it is not your fault..

Pretty sure the bearings were done in our transfer as well when they were done in our gearbox,, I don't have a lift..

Things will work out
Regards
Lou

[abaddonxi]

Went looking for way too long, couldn't find the thread.:( I'm pretty sure it was Xavie who had all the problems with lifting his Puma. I'm sure Dullbird will remember the details.

[KarlB]

Strikes me that Povman is between a rock and a hard place. We can all say that the lift couldn’t have caused the problem, you were warned, etc. But does that help Povman? Ultimately, sorting the cause of the mechanical failure could come down to the courts and a battle between ARB’s and Land Rover Australia’s automotive engineers. And that assumes that ARB is even prepared to enter the game. I suspect they wouldn’t and if they did, I suspect Land Rover would win, and not just because might is right.

Where does Povman go from here? What can be salvaged from his problem? There appears to be two key issues he would like some resolution on: the financial one; and the big trip in just a few weeks.

The best you could hope for from LRA is some sort of compromise deal. I wouldn’t hold my breath on that though. What about ARB? To my mind it could be argued that they are at fault. Proving that may not be easy unless LRA provides a written statement that the cause of the mechanical failure was the lifting of the suspension. That should not be hard to get from them. Bluff and the threat of court action may then persuade ARB that the least costly outcome for them is to pay Povman’s costs and to return his vehicle to original condition.

Which leads us to Povman’s second dilemma: the trip. The mechanical issue needs to be resolved quickly and his Defender needs to be made roadworthy and reliable. Clearly the quickest and easiest way to achieve that is to return to the original set-up. This begs the question though, does he need the lift to undertake the trip he proposing? Only time and the trip could answer that with certainty, but I suspect the standard set up would be more than adequate, after all, we all know that the Defender (in its price class) is, off the showroom floor, the most capable 4x4 in the world.

Good luck Povman. I do hope your trip is a memorable one for all the right reasons.

Cheers
KarlB

[Scouse]

I'm pretty sure it was Xavie who had all the problems with lifting his Puma. I'm sure Dullbird will remember the details.Yep, ended up fitting a DC front shaft to solve the problem.

[VladTepes]

Its not acceptable.

On the otehr hand wy would you NEED to lift a Defender ?

[spudboy]

Gawd - you'd think someone in Land Rover would have issued a TSB (or whatever) to let dealers know this might be an issue, and suggest they recommend a DC prop shaft. Can't only be happening in Australia.

[spudboy]

...On the other hand why would you NEED to lift a Defender ?

I know - my missus and her short legs have enough trouble getting into it already!

[spudboy]

Just had a peek over in my favourite UK forum and found this post, which is worth a read:

57 D90 + 2" suspension = vibration (http://forum.landrovernet.com/showthread.php/137780-57-D90-2-quot-suspension-vibration?highlight=puma+lift+problems)

Cheers
David

[Scallops]

Just in case it might help your case, povman... like dullbird, my transfer case bearing went too, so LRA replaced the entire transfer case - again, no lift.

[pc3]

Who supplys this Double Cardon Part....how much is this worth if you were considering a lift ?

I also think that the defender has that much clearance in standard trim that you would need to be a VERY hardcore 4x4 driver to warrant requiring a lift....is this train of thought correct ?

For the average outback tourer or say hunter who goes to some remote outback stations (such as myself) a lift would not be required ?

I really symphasise with Povman and hope he has his cra fixed free of charge and in time for his trip !!

[Scallops]

Who supplys this Double Cardon Part....how much is this worth if you were considering a lift ?

I also think that the defender has that much clearance in standard trim that you would need to be a VERY hardcore 4x4 driver to warrant requiring a lift....is this train of thought correct ?

For the average outback tourer or say hunter who goes to some remote outbacj stations a lift would not be required ?

I really symphasise with Povman and hope he has his cra fixed free of charge and in time for his trip !!

Yeah - for the outback tourer etc - a lift isn't required. But I know heaps of guys with lifts on their Defys - any club day out with the harder core guys will convince you that the more ground clearance you have, the better.

[abaddonxi]

Gawd - you'd think someone in Land Rover would have issued a TSB (or whatever) to let dealers know this might be an issue, and suggest they recommend a DC prop shaft. Can't only be happening in Australia.

And you'd think ARB would do the same.

[KarlB]

And you'd think ARB would do the same.

Indeed, I would have thought ARB would have a greater responsibility, after all, they are the ones providing the suspension lift, not Land Rover whose position I would have thought was obvious. ARB's responsibility should also be considered in the light of the number of reported problems encountered with lifting Puma Defenders.

Reminds me of an old boss who said to me "done worry about looking professional, be professional".

That aside, we mustn't forget poor Povman and his difficult situation. We should also look on this as a warning to tread carefully when any changes we may be considering might impact on our vehicle's warranty (and insurance for that matter).

Cheers
KarlB

[Allan]

Indeed, I would have thought ARB would have a greater responsibility, after all, they are the ones providing the suspension lift, not Land Rover whose position I would have thought was obvious. ARB's responsibility should also be considered in the light of the number of reported problems encountered with lifting Puma Defenders.

Reminds me of an old boss who said to me "done worry about looking professional, be professional".

That aside, we mustn't forget poor Povman and his difficult situation. We should also look on this as a warning to tread carefully when any changes we may be considering might impact on our vehicle's warranty (and insurance for that matter).

Cheers
KarlB

After the lift problems I had with my vehicle I found a discussion regarding lifting Puma's on the Defender 2 forum. I faxed this information to ARB in Midland to save Midland ARB and other Defender owners all these problems in the future. Obviously the info is not shared.

Allan

[KarlB]

After the lift problems I had with my vehicle I found a discussion regarding lifting Puma's on the Defender 2 forum. I faxed this information to ARB in Midland to save Midland ARB and other Defender owners all these problems in the future. Obviously the info is not shared.


Great Allan. That is just the sort of information Povman may need in his battle. That information should have been shared across all of ARB. If I was in Povman's situation I would be asking you for a statutory declaration.

Cheers
KarlB

[Allan]

Great Allan. That is just the sort of information Povman may need in his battle. That information should have been shared across all of ARB. If I was in Povman's situation I would be asking you for a statutory declaration.

Cheers
KarlB

I agree it should have been shared across ARB and I'm shocked that its not. In their defence ARB were happy to refund the suspention part prices and stated they were un aware of any problems lifting a Defender. Mine was the first Puma they had done. I am starting to think the doller driven at most outlets these days.

Allan

[povman]

Ok guys, just got off the phone to ARB.....More of that in a minute!!!

I'm a pretty patient bloke and when I spoke to LR this morning, they told me that basically, the problem is only apparent due to the lift.
Take the lift away, problem goes away....
I agreed 100% with them.
Now, seen as I wasn't even after a lift in the first place, only a heavier suspension to take the weight of the bullbar, winch etc, advised by ARB in the first place, it was now time to get back to them (me getting back to THEM again) and find out exactly what they plan on doing..

Rang ARB and found the person I had been dealing with had been taken off the case.....
So now they ask me, "In your words, what do know about the whole situation?"
You know sometimes when your angry, you see RED, well I saw RED and recounted the whole f****ng story AGAIN to them..( Short version for you guys, "Car was good, you worked on it, car gone bad, $4500 part to fix, car still bad from lift you did, you need to fix yesterday"!!!!)
I'll give ARB something, they did actually seem genuine in wanting to help me this time, during my whole rant I wasn't butted in by even once....
Now gents and ladies I presume, I will have (so I'm told) a happier story to tell tomorrow after 3pm, apparently..
They are flat bedding the car from it's new home of LR to it's second home, ARB in the morning and they claim they are doing the fix tomorrow...

I'm dubious, but will keep you all informed how I go and once again, THANK YOU, for all your support, it really does help knowing people have this knowledge out there and want to share it. It helps to keep me positive that a solution is close at hand and I think everyone including after market businesses should consult the knowledge of this website before doing anything to their Defenders...At the end of the day, We are the ones driving them day in day out!!!!
Cheers people,
A bit happier, Povman. :(

[spudboy]

Aye - that's positive.

I guess ARB are keen to protect their name. Looks like they'll chalk that one up to experience and hopefully you still get to go on your holiday now.

[geckos]

wow, i have thought of so much to write but just forgotten it all.

geck

[JohnR]

Yep, what Pete said, Lifted mine (King spring 2" lift) at about 10,000kms now has 75,000km of trouble free driving.

It would be interesting to know exactly how much higher the ARB kit made it as when I did mine because of the bull bar, winch, sliders etc. etc. extra weight it actually only lifter the suspension by 28mm. Not that I am worried by this but my point is if you do a bit of maths and figure out what the actual change in degrees to the output shaft of the transfer case after the lift I am sure you will find it will be a very minimal difference. Therefore ask LR to explain how on a vehicle that should be able to use its full travel of suspension (with no lift kit) can fail as soon as they put a new transfer case in and I am sure their test drive did not use the full limits of the suspension even if it is lifted???

Something seems a little odd here. It sounds more like ARB have reassembled something incorrect when putting your car back together and for some reason LR have not picked up on this when checking over it? I'd be asking LR to do a full check of how the front is assembled to see if they can see what has caused the fault so you can go back to ARB with something concrete that they will have a difficult time arguing as you can bet your bottom dollar they are going to argue!

Good Luck :)

[dullbird]

Great news povman...

As for where to get the double Cardon Xavier had one made here at the cost of $1000 but you can get them from various suppliers. Devon 4x4 do double Cardons for the puma greasable ones too, not sure of price but ian also saw them at billing for £350 but can't remember the name of the company.

Hope that helps!

[dmdigital]

Wasn't from QT was it Lou? I notice they have DC'd prop shafts on their website.

[stevencam]

I have fitted ARB springs to the rear of my PUMA the local ARB dealer gave me a product guide and secification sheet for the ARB suspension components, and it clearly states that fitting their kits will cause prop shaft angle proplems and that a double cardan joint front prop must be fitted. So ARB are well aware of these problems even if the fitters and customers aren't.

[Gav110]

Whoa! Povman, what a setback.
I have been enjoying your ‘build up’ and this is a real blow.
We are definitely getting mixed messages re lifting the Puma.
Hasn’t Gav110 lifted his Puma with no issues?
Good luck with the outcome.


No mate, kept mine standard height but just added HD front springs - and considering HD for rears too as am started getting sag even with no towing and no weight - but getting LR to check under warranty first ;)

Good luck Povman - heary goes out to you. Gav

[Allan]

No mate, kept mine standard height but just added HD front springs - and considering HD for rears too as am started getting sag even with no towing and no weight - but getting LR to check under warranty first ;)

Good luck Povman - heary goes out to you. Gav

I've put a draw system and Engal drop down fridge mount in mine and have to go for LR heavy duty springs. Hope they fix your problem povman, good luck.

Allan

[lardy]

Great news povman...

As for where to get the double Cardon Xavier had one made here at the cost of $1000 but you can get them from various suppliers. Devon 4x4 do double Cardons for the puma greasable ones too, not sure of price but ian also saw them at billing for £350 but can't remember the name of the company.

Hope that helps!

Bailey Morris Limited - Propshaft Manufacturing Specialists (http://www.baileymorris.co.uk/)

[lardy]

I have fitted ARB springs to the rear of my PUMA the local ARB dealer gave me a product guide and secification sheet for the ARB suspension components, and it clearly states that fitting their kits will cause prop shaft angle proplems and that a double cardan joint front prop must be fitted. So ARB are well aware of these problems even if the fitters and customers aren't.

Povman...before anyone of your money extractors blinds you with bull**** if the products are not fit for purpose then they have the ball in their court and should therefore be making huge in-roads in your favour get in contact with consumer affairs just to give them the heads up and get some info to stick to whoever you end up dealing with, when I had a moment of madness and I looked at a puma at lra perth they also indicate ARB for aftermarket upgrades therefore you used the recommended bod's they messed up ...and good luck

[povman]

Once again, thanx for everyones support with this issue. Good to see peoples opinion to remedy this problem and it's much appreciated, but also you have given me ammunition to fight with.:D
They have kept the HD springs in the rear, and I questioned this with LR yesterday and they said, "not a problem". I'm hoping they are correct with this assessment and that it doesn't bight me in the arse later down the track..!
I already have a quote if anyones interested from Hardy Spicer for a double cardan and it came in at Price $451.40ea + GST.
ARB were hinting in this direction yesterday, and am told they are going to ring me today at 3pm to let me know what they are doing about this bull****
Once again will be back this arvo to give you an update..
Cheers,
Povman :mad:

[LowRanger]

I was quoted approx.$700 to make a heavy duty Double Cardan joint front shaft,using Hardy Spicer joints and slide from a local driveshaft guy here that does a lot of work for the comp guys.Don't even think of buying one from QT,as I already got stung buying their shafts,which have joints from Turkey and splined slides that are made in India.

Wayne

[rick130]

Locally made Hardy Spicer double cardan kits

:edit: sorry for the size, I didn't realise the site reduces it when you upload a piccy.

Try this

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://img534.imageshack.us/i/4wddoublecardanassy.gif/)


(http://imageshack.us)

[Psimpson7]

Just out of interest does it need to be a DC joint. Would a wide angle joint not be adequate?

Devon 4x4 Off Road - Wide Angle Shafts - Off Road Equipment and 4x4 accessories from Devon 4x4 (http://www.devon4x4.com/products_a/c10080/wide-angle-shafts/0.html)

[povman]

Not HAPPY Jan!!!!!
Just been having more heated discussions with ARB.
ARB had my car flat bedded to them today and have looked at my car and their own Defender and they claim that their own one has the same problem?
Now I find myself in between a rock and a hard place because:
ARB claim that their suspension DOES NOT change the angle of the prop shaft and the length of their shocks is only 2mm different than the OE shocks!
They have once AGAIN thrown it back to LR to now get it in writing that the problem is caused by their suspension change!
ARB are appearing to try and do the right thing by me and get the problem in writing from LR. (also covering their own backsides no doubt!)
They are willing to fit the double cardan uni, BUT, they don't believe that this will fix the actual problem and aren't happy just doing this and sending me on my merry way for it to fail down the track!!!! I won't be covered by warranty then and it will come back to ARB!
So my friends,
I am still without my car.
It's still costing me money everyday to get around without a car, ie, cabs.
I still don't have an answer when I'll get my car back.
They still can't tell me exactly what the problem is or what is causing it!
LR claim it's the suspension, ARB claim it's the uni or prop shaft or whatever it is this week and I'm none the wiser and I still have to fit the roofrack, uhf and antenna etc before we leave in exactly 21 days!
On top of that, I still wanted time to test all the mods that have been fitted!
It's now into day 18 since I had my car and it's anyones guess when I will get it back, plus I'm getting just that little bit extra pressure now from the missus to top it all off!!!:mad:
Not Happy Povman.

[Allan]

I think that sucks. I think I would be demanding they put it back to standard height, I would keep the shocks and get the dealer to fit 130 front springs to compensate for bar weight. I've been there with this problem and it seems the only logical fix without expensive prop shaft modifications.

Allan

[jasonedu]

I have fitted ARB springs to the rear of my PUMA the local ARB dealer gave me a product guide and secification sheet for the ARB suspension components, and it clearly states that fitting their kits will cause prop shaft angle proplems and that a double cardan joint front prop must be fitted. So ARB are well aware of these problems even if the fitters and customers aren't.

povman - i would be talking to your local dealer and trying to get your hands on this product guide and specification sheet. it makes the whole issue sound pretty clear cut to me.

[stevencam]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

This information was supplied to me by local agent

[LROV90]

Hi. We have 2 pumas that are both lifted around 3.5 inches. Mine needed caster arms, d/c front driveshaft and the rear shafts unis phased. My brothers need just the caster arms and d/c front driveshaft.

In both of them, once lifted the standard front shaft bound up which would very quickly destroy it and possibly the tranfer.

Good luck!

[Allan]

Hi. We have 2 pumas that are both lifted around 3.5 inches. Mine needed caster arms, d/c front driveshaft and the rear shafts unis phased. My brothers need just the caster arms and d/c front driveshaft.

In both of them, once lifted the standard front shaft bound up which would very quickly destroy it and possibly the tranfer.

Good luck!

PLEASE show me photoes, I now this thread is not really the place to do it but.

Allan

[Psimpson7]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=27331&stc=1&d=1280310880

This information was supplied to me by local agent

The date on that note specifies after 98 which would have been the start of the TD5. No specific mention of the Puma? It also says 2.5 on the top which again is not the Puma.

[one_iota]

The date on that note specifies after 98 which would have been the start of the TD5. No specific mention of the Puma? It also says 2.5 on the top which again is not the Puma.

I think that the operative words are "after 98". To put it another way "look before you lift". Caution should be applied and when in doubt either find out or don't.

[Psimpson7]

Indeed, but you would think they would have a specific comment re the Puma if, they had manage to spot that lifting a td5 40mm causes issues (which it doesn't)

Good luck to Povman sorting this out.

This coment from ARB

"ARB claim that their suspension DOES NOT change the angle of the prop shaft and the length of their shocks is only 2mm different than the OE shocks!"

Makes zero sense. The angle of the prop is affected by the height between the pinion and transfer case output, and with this the shocks would make no difference. The 40mm taller springs however, would make a 40mm difference!

Rgds
Pete

[Tusker]

What can one say. I sympathise.

From what I understand, the Puma has its gearbox/tc case rotated for whatever reason, end result is t/c case sticks out below chassis rails & all the driveshaft angles are different compared to a TD5.

So traditional fixes may not work.

A D/C front shaft will/may cure vibration issues, but won't fix binding at extreme angles. A wide angle uni is needed for that. My Td5 Defender has a D2 D/C front shaft for just this reason - eliminate vibration, not extra uni angles.

I can only suggest drop it back to std ride height. Any problems "should" be eliminated.

Lifting issues with Pumas seem to be trial & error, & perhaps need documented examples here to see what does & doesn't work.

Regards
Max P

[povman]

Just a quick question before I get back to the fight today:
If I get them to put the original springs back in and get the d/c put in as well, will this possibly stop the vibration and stop the binding of the uni all in one? Or is my lack of driveline knowledge showing and you can't do both? I don't know and I'm not afraid to ask maybe a dumb question from you people in the know!

Thanx in advance.
Povman.

[Tusker]

You'd hope so. And in standard trim the d/c shaft just shouldn't be necessary.

Did you drive it for any time before taking it to ARB? i.e. are you sure it was all ok beforehand?

And it might be worth checking what the lift actually is. Measure from the centre of the wheel up to the mudguard flare, all round. Check against a new one at at Dealer when no-one is looking. :angel:

Regards
Max P

[Psimpson7]

Is the front prop shorter on a puma or the same length as the earlier ones?

The rotated transfer case should improve the situation really, as they rotated it down.

It would be interesting to know the length of it, and the difference in height.

Can you meaure from the ground to the centre of the diff flange, and then the ground to the centre of the Transfer case output flange, and then the length of it if you had a minute?

Could compare it to an earlier model then.

Rgds
Pete

[LowRanger]

I am having a hard time believing that the lift had anything to do with creating the problem.Surely,when the suspension was fitted,the vehicle was on the hoist in a free wheel situation.Which means that the suspension was under its maximum extension.Which would mean that the angle of the tailshaft would be at its maximum operating angle,and therefore at the point where unis were going to bind.So when any technician was doing up the bolts on the taishaft,he would have found it very difficult,if not been unable to rotate the shaft.Another point is,if anyone has driven a vehicle with binding unis,you can't help but notice the noise and vibration the minute you move the vehicle.I would be thinking more along the lines of incorrect endfloat setting in the transfer,or the nut on the yoke; bottoming out before tightening the yoke.Allowing endplay in the transfer,which can be exacerbated with the angle and therefore operating length of the tailshaft as it is able to move on the splines.

Have seen this happen a few times,over many years in the trade.

Wayne

[Drover]

Hey Guys,

I have been watching this thread with concern and confusion.

I posted earlier that I had my PUMA lifted with OME767 50mm springs to compensate for the bull bar and winch. ARB also put the stock factory shocks back in, as the vehicle only had about 5,000k's on the clock at the time

Up to this thread being posted I didn't know that there was a problem. I do not get vibrations or any thing else to indicate that there is a problem.

I have done about 16,000k's since the lift. Including a trip through the Simpson, that saw the suspension, front and rear, travel through it full range on numerous occasion each day.

There is something funny going on here !

How can one PUMA have these problems and other ones don't ? They all use the same parts - Diff's - prop shafts - Transfer .

There is a post on this thread from another member talking of his PUMA with 50mm lift with king springs now with 75,000k's - no problems.

Not an expert by any stretch here but it doesn't add up !!!

PovMan – hope it all works out for you.

[spudboy]

...And it might be worth checking what the lift actually is. Measure from the centre of the wheel up to the mudguard flare, all round. Check against a new one at at Dealer when no-one is looking. :angel:

Regards
Max P

PovMan - I just measured my 2007 110 (which is bog standard, no winch, Std rims/tyres, no dual batteries or anything else remotely heavy added) and from the centre of the centre-cap to the edge lip of the wheel arch "eye-brow" is 495mm on both sides, sitting on a flat concrete pad.

HTH deterrmine what your actual lift is.
David

[Drover]

Mine measures 535mm from hub centre(front) to bottom edge of flare, both side, on flat concrete.

HTH.

Cheers

[Psimpson7]

If someone had time it would be really interesting to get the heights from the ground of the diff pinion centre, and the transfer case output flange centre, aswell as the front prop length.

(the height on mine is 550mm front wheel centre to bottom side of lip and that is supposedly an exact 2" lift with all the tat bolted on) - (not a puma - but may be useful for reference)

[spudboy]

Mine measures 535mm from hub centre(front) to bottom edge of flare, both side, on flat concrete.

HTH.

Cheers

Bugger - I seem to have been dudded out of 40mm......

[Allan]

Bugger - I seem to have been dudded out of 40mm......

Just measured my wheel arch to centre of hub (front), 520mm. It has an ARB bar, 9000 lbs winch with wire and all the extras. Springs are standard 130 Defender fronts. On the ARB springs it was considerably higher than this and I think that this is where the problem lies. Probably 20-25mm makes little difference, it would be interesting to know the measurements of Povman's wheel arch to hub.

Allan

[povman]

Latest update....
ARB are currently refitting OE suspension, which they already claim is still not going to fix the problem. Also once fitted they are going to video it as proof, then send the prop shaft off to an independent analyst to prove it isn't aligned or something like that, (lost concentration at this point with my head spinning out of control and the stress levels taking over!) :
If it comes back ok, they will admit they caused the problem once and for all and pay all expenses to get it rectified. (Good part of story!)
2: If it comes back with the results that prove it was this way from factory, I get sent on my merry way back to LR AGAIN to let them accept that the problem is theirs, (which is not going to be easy!)
All of this over my head and I still don't have an answer as to what the exact problem is and I've still got to fit the roofrack which arrives tomorrow and the uhf, all planned to fit this weekend but theres no way I'll get my car back by then, I guarantee it!
Anyone got any stress remedies????:(
Unhappy Povman AGAIN...

[one_iota]

For what it is worth.... the NSW RTA measurements for suspension heights of the Defender Wagon are on page three of the attached file.

Note that the measurement for suspension is from the center of the hub vertically to the wheel arch (cut out in the mudguard) not the flare.

[rick130]

Anyone have the part #'s for the TDCi uni's, slip joint and front prop to compare to the TD5 wide angle one ?

The later model TD5's went to the wide angle uni at the t/case end to prevent binding issues that the Tdi's didn't have.

Hmm, remember when the TDCi came out there were a spate of front props hitting (and some holing) the engine sump.
You'd expect this on an aftermarket conversion with development done on the run, not a factory version......

[Psimpson7]

The later model TD5's went to the wide angle uni at the t/case end to prevent binding issues that the Tdi's didn't have.


I am pretty sure all TD5's have the larger joint at the TC end.

[geckos]

Hey Guys,

How can one PUMA have these problems and other ones don't ? They all use the same parts - Diff's - prop shafts - Transfer .

There is a post on this thread from another member talking of his PUMA with 50mm lift with king springs now with 75,000k's - no problems.

Not an expert by any stretch here but it doesn't add up !!!

PovMan – hope it all works out for you.

It aint funny here, i got a lift a long time ago now of 2.5" and got front vibration in my Td5. Got a DC shaft. I know of other people who had the same and they didnt. What the????

i think it really is the luck of the draw........... hope you have yours soughted soon povman..

geck

[rick130]

It aint funny here, i got a lift a long time ago now of 2.5" and got front vibration in my Td5. Got a DC shaft. I know of other people who had the same and they didnt. What the????

i think it really is the luck of the draw........... hope you have yours soughted soon povman..

geck

Looking at panel tolerances, none of us should be surprised at driveline and general engineering tolerances being 'generous' on a Defender :D

[lambrover]

Ha Pov man did you have castor corrected bushes fitted, I noticed that allen had these fitted, this is not needed for a 2 inch lift in these vehicles and correcting castor in a constant 4x4 vehicle shouldn't be done this way ( my opinion) as it rotates the diff housing increasing the prop shaft drive angle, the best way is it to get slotted swivel housings, as this leaves the drive angle and only affects the castor in which needs changing.

If you had these fitted remove them.

Gecko, had a 3inch lift fitted, he has 6 degree corrected radius arms and had the stock shaft, this caused vibs, he had a DC shaft made up and all fixed.

My county was running about 3 inch lift, 125mm to the bump stop on the front axle, the countys run wide angle uni joints this is what Psimpson7 was talking about.

Lowranger, I think he could be on to it here, my mates 130 puma had a loose rear diff pinion flange which relates to bearing preload, the mechanics at Land rover spares in Mackay said he had seen it before.

People need to get out more and use there cars if they can sit there and say they don't need lifting, get off the black top guys and use it the way they where ment to be, the Army 110 is higher than standard 110's for a reason.

I would not fit arb shocks as they do not offer any extra wheel travel, total waste of money in my opinion. Allen has a good idea with his shocks or the other option to look at is tjm long travel shocks, arb should be ashamed with there shocks. the arb 2 inch coil works out roughly to be the same as a 130 front by the way.

hope this helps

[TimNZ]

Anyone have the part #'s for the TDCi uni's, slip joint and front prop to compare to the TD5 wide angle one ?

The later model TD5's went to the wide angle uni at the t/case end to prevent binding issues that the Tdi's didn't have.

Hmm, remember when the TDCi came out there were a spate of front props hitting (and some holing) the engine sump.
You'd expect this on an aftermarket conversion with development done on the run, not a factory version......


Front Uni......... TDCi TVC500010.. TD5 (from 1A612405) STC4807
Front Prop....... TDCi LR010465..... TD5 (from 1A612405) TVB100610
Rear Uni.......... TDCi RTC3458...... TD5 RTC3458............................... Heavy duty TD5 TVC100010
Rear 110 Prop.. TDCi LR010463..... TD5 (from LA942618) FTC4198

The slip joints on the TDCi are a ball race type.

Cheers,

[TimNZ]

Looking at panel tolerances, none of us should be surprised at driveline and general engineering tolerances being 'generous' on a Defender :D

The panel gaps and alignment on my new 110 is terrible! Fortunately it's easy to fix, just takes a bit of time.....

[rick130]

[snip]
People need to get out more and use there cars if they can sit there and say they don't need lifting, get off the black top guys and use it the way they where ment to be, the Army 110 is higher than standard 110's for a reason.

[snip]

hope this helps

There will always be those that think their Landy is 'perfect' as it left the factory, and there will be those of us that think Land Rover only did half a job :D

I never went as high as some of you, 'only' going 117/114mm initially between the front bump stops on my Tdi, but it just avoided any driveline problems and i got away without castor correcting the swivels, again just, although i sometimes think I should whip them off and slot the buggers as I've always been an advocate of increased castor in solid axle 4WD's
Anyway, the increased travel with 10" stroke dampers all round and the slight lift helps keep the 130's belly off stuff that it would otherwise drag on and keeps it driving.

[Allan]

Ha Pov man did you have castor corrected bushes fitted, I noticed that allen had these fitted, this is not needed for a 2 inch lift in these vehicles and correcting castor in a constant 4x4 vehicle shouldn't be done this way ( my opinion) as it rotates the diff housing increasing the prop shaft drive angle, the best way is it to get slotted swivel housings, as this leaves the drive angle and only affects the castor in which needs changing.

If you had these fitted remove them.

Gecko, had a 3inch lift fitted, he has 6 degree corrected radius arms and had the stock shaft, this caused vibs, he had a DC shaft made up and all fixed.

My county was running about 3 inch lift, 125mm to the bump stop on the front axle, the countys run wide angle uni joints this is what Psimpson7 was talking about.

Lowranger, I think he could be on to it here, my mates 130 puma had a loose rear diff pinion flange which relates to bearing preload, the mechanics at Land rover spares in Mackay said he had seen it before.

People need to get out more and use there cars if they can sit there and say they don't need lifting, get off the black top guys and use it the way they where ment to be, the Army 110 is higher than standard 110's for a reason.

I would not fit arb shocks as they do not offer any extra wheel travel, total waste of money in my opinion. Allen has a good idea with his shocks or the other option to look at is tjm long travel shocks, arb should be ashamed with there shocks. the arb 2 inch coil works out roughly to be the same as a 130 front by the way.

hope this helps

Unfortunately I had the noise before they fitted the caster bushes. Fitting them worsened it by introducing vibration that would shake your teeth out. For some reason the Puma has a problem with lift. The ARB springs lifted my Puma a good inch or more than the 130 springs. Iv'e just found the invoice and part number of what was fitted:- OME 767. My vehicle, with all of my extras looked much taller than a standard Puma with no extras as, to my eye, is Povmans - refer to his photos in earlier posts.

Allan

[lambrover]

Unfortunately I had the noise before they fitted the caster bushes. Fitting them worsened it by introducing vibration that would shake your teeth out. For some reason the Puma has a problem with lift. The ARB springs lifted my Puma a good inch or more than the 130 springs. Iv'e just found the invoice and part number of what was fitted:- OME 767. My vehicle, with all of my extras looked much taller than a standard Puma with no extras as, to my eye, is Povmans - refer to his photos in earlier posts.

Allan

ok that is really bad.
with the springs I should have added that when Gecko pulled his old man emu 2 inch lift out we tried them into another mates puma 130 and it sat lower than on the standard coils, we got hold of some 4inch lifted rears from a range rover to fit in the front and they worked really well and had no vibs, the puma has some strange problems.

[Allan]

ok that is really bad.
with the springs I should have added that when Gecko pulled his old man emu 2 inch lift out we tried them into another mates puma 130 and it sat lower than on the standard coils, we got hold of some 4inch lifted rears from a range rover to fit in the front and they worked really well and had no vibs, the puma has some strange problems.

For sure, I've played with the wifes ninty TD5 and had no problems, but I have told the boss the only modification to the Puma front suspention is 130 springs or close and standard travel shocks to stop prop shaft bind. I play with the rear, air locker, dislocation cones ect.

Allan

[JohnR]

Interestingly I was talking to Devon4x4 last night about a Double Cardon front prop shaft and the guy said before you order make sure you measure flange to flange as they have had a lot of small variants on the >2007 models and he said that a small error in length can make a big difference to the way the prop shaft will work????

Is it possible that the position of the transfer casse front output in relation to the front diff input is somehow different from one vehicle to another? I know it sounds stupid but we are still driving one of the few hand assembled cars left on the market :eek:

I am going to measure mine tonight and I will also make the measurements that Pete was asking for just so people with issue can compare their to a vehicle that is lifted with no issues.

Cheers,

[JohnR]

OK guy's just woke Alison up from the couch dragged her outside to take notes whilst I crawled under the car out out on the street :)

With King Spring 2" lift springs , ARB Bullbar, Winch with plasma rope, Checker plate wings, Spot lights (2on bull bar, 6 above windscreen) Rock sliders, Full size second battery beside other battery. Standard tyres on. Plus lots of other heavy crap but most of the rest is towards the rear of the vehicle.
Height from front axle centre to underside of flare: 505mm
Ground to Centre of diff output flange: 430mm
Ground to Centre of transfer output flange: 535mm
Length of prop shaft flange to flange: 695mm

How about a few other take the same measurements to see what differences we get?:confused:

Cheers,

[Psimpson7]

Height from front axle centre to underside of flare: 505mm
Ground to Centre of diff output flange: 430mm
Ground to Centre of transfer output flange: 535mm
Length of prop shaft flange to flange: 695mm


Nice work John + Alison!

I've just gone out and checked my TD5 for a comparison. I will double check them in daylight tommorow.

Height from front axle centre to underside of flare: 550mm
Ground to Centre of diff output flange: 470mm
Ground to Centre of transfer output flange: 590mm
Length of prop shaft flange to flange: 620mm

Rgds
Pete

[JohnR]

Interesting the height change from diff to transfer case is greater for you and it's over a shorter distance ???
105mm height change over 695mm a 75mm longer prop shaft.
120mm height change over 620mm
Our ratio is 6.62:1 rise
Your ratio 5.16:1 rise

Also with Sway bars and shorter shockies than yours I am sure it will be going through way less travel than you to??

I think LR have another problem here. But if more people can do the measurements it would be great and may also help Povman with some data if he needs it later.....

Cheers,

[Didge]

Great news povman...

As for where to get the double Cardon Xavier had one made here at the cost of $1000 but you can get them from various suppliers. Devon 4x4 do double Cardons for the puma greasable ones too, not sure of price but ian also saw them at billing for £350 but can't remember the name of the company.

Hope that helps!

Ok, I'll ask :) what's a double cardon xavier? (sounds like a posh mixer drink to me). Also, I'm now thinking I'll stick with my trouble free (apart from normal wear and tear issues) standard form 300 TDi for as long as it goes. Whad'ya reckon?
cheers gerald
ps one thing povman, depsite seeing red and high stress levels you're still a funny man :)

[stig0000]

just cheaked my car, diff is 435mm,

TC is 579mm

and flange linth is 624mm,

[JaYwALk]

Hey Povman - just found this thread and thought I'd provide some input! I've got the Puma double cab ute that was at the Defender Day a month or so ago (think I met you, but there was quite a few that I met on the day!) which has got a minor lift on it. However....when I first got the car I took it off to ARB (Hoppers Crossing) to get a 2.5" OME suspension kit on it - plus a few other things. Thankfully the guys at ARB rang me before installing it to advise that I would run into a whole bunch of problems if I was to raise the vehicle and that they simply wouldn't touch it. They also did a bit of research and found a local chap to confirm this advising that it affected the cardan joints and to rectify it would cost a couple of grand (on top of the lift). I said "thanks" and then contacted a few other suppliers as although I wasn't necessarily after a big lift, I was after something to compensate for the big muddies, bullbar, and winch etc. I eventually ended up going to Opposite Lock in Melton who consulted one of their franchisees in W.A who just happens to have a couple of Defenders and knew all about the problem. They advised lifting it to a max of 1" and installing heavy duty shocks in the front to compensate for the bar and winch. I did this back in April and have had no problems since.

I really feel for you as the 'upgrades' should be a positive thing. At the end of the day ARB should be held responsible as they are the "experts" and have been advised of the problems associated with lifting later model Defenders. Perhaps call the guys at Hoppers Crossing to get their opinion on a lift and then quote it back to head office!!!!

Good luck mate!

Jon

[miky]

My recent experience with ARB is that they are not experts. Just salesmen who like many others are just selling a product.

It really depends which ARB shop you walk into and who you get on the day.

In my case I was initially told that ARB did not make a bar for the new Defender! True. I had to prove they did and we went on from there. The shop (or to be fair, the salesman) had obviously never sold/fitted a Defender bar before.

At the end of the day, I am happy with the install.

OK for you guys and gals in the eastern states where you seem to have lots of shops and you can pick and choose your suppliers, but in sleepy old Adelaide ...


.

[Marty110]

Just found this thread - heres my experience - my Puma has done 10,000km and has had ARB OME 50mm lifted suspension from day 1, drove out of workshop and did 4,000km thru Vic including 800km off road in high country and a bit more in Grampians withour a single vibration but terrific ride and articulation. Got home found rear pinion seal leaking took to LR to fix - they said it was caused by OME suspension but would fix once for free. Now I have vibration. I think they may have stuffed up pre-load as they had also not done up the nuts on the brake end of the prop shaft either so anythings possible. Vehicle is off to engineers Monday to provide written report that suspension lift cannot affect pinion seal and back to fight with LR as its leaking again.... Whats with Puma, already had new diff fitted and brake vacuum pump all under warranty. Wish I'd kept the old 300Tdi in some ways except for the great pulling power of the new engine. Oh yeah - the lift is less than 50mm in practice due to the load I always carry in the rear and the bullbar and winch up front.

[Psimpson7]

Interesting the height change from diff to transfer case is greater for you and it's over a shorter distance ???
105mm height change over 695mm a 75mm longer prop shaft.
120mm height change over 620mm
Cheers,


I know. Thats why I am suprised this is an issue!

Rough sums say 8.56degrees on yours and 10.95degrees on mine

I wonder if the gear box and transfer case is angled to the rear on the puma?

ETA, Ii have just double checked my measurements and they are as I stated last night.

[povman]

Hey Povman - just found this thread and thought I'd provide some input! I've got the Puma double cab ute that was at the Defender Day a month or so ago (think I met you, but there was quite a few that I met on the day!) which has got a minor lift on it. However....when I first got the car I took it off to ARB (Hoppers Crossing) to get a 2.5" OME suspension kit on it - plus a few other things. Thankfully the guys at ARB rang me before installing it to advise that I would run into a whole bunch of problems if I was to raise the vehicle and that they simply wouldn't touch it. They also did a bit of research and found a local chap to confirm this advising that it affected the cardan joints and to rectify it would cost a couple of grand (on top of the lift). I said "thanks" and then contacted a few other suppliers as although I wasn't necessarily after a big lift, I was after something to compensate for the big muddies, bullbar, and winch etc. I eventually ended up going to Opposite Lock in Melton who consulted one of their franchisees in W.A who just happens to have a couple of Defenders and knew all about the problem. They advised lifting it to a max of 1" and installing heavy duty shocks in the front to compensate for the bar and winch. I did this back in April and have had no problems since.

I really feel for you as the 'upgrades' should be a positive thing. At the end of the day ARB should be held responsible as they are the "experts" and have been advised of the problems associated with lifting later model Defenders. Perhaps call the guys at Hoppers Crossing to get their opinion on a lift and then quote it back to head office!!!!

Good luck mate!

Jon

Jon, thanks for your input. Very interesting that Hoppers Crossing were aware of the probs and ARB head office failed to research this themselves! You would think a massive company would do their research for this very reason to cover their own arses and that it would be a standard operating procedure company wide!!!
I personally believe (and this is my opinion only) that they DID know about the double cardan needing to be installed but failed to quote me on this product in the first place and tried to get away without installing it because it wasn't required on their own test Defender vehicle!
Now as I said, this is my personal opinion and after all the evidence out there which support the correct procedures, this wasn't done and now they are trying very hard to rectify this!

From all the info that you knowledgeable people have given me, which is REALLY appreciated once again, we have been able to point ARB in the direction of Hardy Spicer, which I never even knew of before this whole saga mind you, and they are currently designing a custom double cardan that hopefully will be installed next week and it will be the end of it once and for all!!!! Fingers crossed, and yes I am going to try and get ARB to warrant my driveline for the duration of the car warranty now that it will be voided!! Need it in writing and will see how I go and will let you know.
Cheers,
Povman.

[JohnR]

Any Puma's out there want to do the measurements???

Pete, I double check mine this morning as well and I was correct as well?

Maybe Thr night if you bring your car we can hop underneath and compare angles?

I am still stuck as to why one car plays up and not another???? Especially when Povman's car played up without even being driven off road. :confused: If it was so boarder line mine would have at least played up off road lifting wheels, big drops etc.

I want to lift mine up so all wheels are off the ground and the CAREFULLY rotate the front shaft and see what it does?

Cheers,

[frantic]

Two links to source double cardan front propshafts:
Lucky8 Llc. - Take the road less traveled... (http://www.lucky8llc.com/Search.asp?Appl=Defender)

and
Products stocked and supplied for 4x4 modification at Gwyn Lewis Garage (http://www.gwynlewis4x4.co.uk/page2.html)

I have ordered a gwyn kit for my td5 but not with the propshafts, after reading this I may have to change my mind!:o

[povman]

Any Puma's out there want to do the measurements???

Pete, I double check mine this morning as well and I was correct as well?

Maybe Thr night if you bring your car we can hop underneath and compare angles?

I am still stuck as to why one car plays up and not another???? Especially when Povman's car played up without even being driven off road. :confused: If it was so boarder line mine would have at least played up off road lifting wheels, big drops etc.

I want to lift mine up so all wheels are off the ground and the CAREFULLY rotate the front shaft and see what it does?

Cheers,

They seem to think that mine was right on the border of being out of spec, then once they changed the suspension it was thrown way out of spec! when on the hoist and rotating the front shaft you can physically see the uni rubbing on itself, so check it out on full droop and see how you go..
All the best John and let us know how ya go..
Povman.

[Psimpson7]

Will do John.

Rgds
Pete

[Allan]

They seem to think that mine was right on the border of being out of spec, then once they changed the suspension it was thrown way out of spec! when on the hoist and rotating the front shaft you can physically see the uni rubbing on itself, so check it out on full droop and see how you go..
All the best John and let us know how ya go..
Povman.

Glad they are now on top of it. At least now you can finish your plans for your trip. All the best.

Allan

[scarry]

Son's Puma is this
Axle centre to underside of guard flare 480 mm / D2 505mm
Ground to centre diff output flange 430mm /D2 380mm
Ground to centre of TC flange 485mm /D2 465mm
Propshaft length,outside of flange to flange 681 mm / D2 614mm

Stock,with ARB bar& about 50 kg of stuff in rear.

Also checked the D2 just as a comparison,it was beside it in carport.
Never really compared them before,but you can see why the D2 has the C J.

Povman,hope it all gets sorted......

[one_iota]

Mine as measured as above:

485

440

490

685

Stock suspension with ARB Bull Bar no winch.

May the Force be with you povman.

[stevencam]

Son's Puma is this
Axle centre to underside of guard flare 480 mm / D2 505mm
Ground to centre diff output flange 430mm /D2 380mm
Ground to centre of TC flange 485mm /D2 465mm
Propshaft length,outside of flange to flange 681 mm / D2 614mm


......

Mine as above

520
460
544
681

130 front springs arb bar warn 9.5 winch dual batteries OME 755 rear springs blackwidow draws. OL fuel and water tanks. fridge and tool box

[Drover]

Hey Guys,

My numbers are ;

611

430

540

665

PUMA SVX, OME 50mm lift, stock rear with PolyBags.

Extra Weight = ARB Bull Bar, Winch, Dual Batts, Black Widow Storage, 140L fuel tank, 60L, water tank, fridge, KayMar Wheel hanger.

No probs, No vibration - 21,000k's.

[Allan]

It appears to me those with little or no trouble have 550 or less flare base to hub centre measurements. how many Puma's 550 and over this measurement are happy campers.

Allan

[povman]

Thanks guys, would give you my own if I had my car back!!!!!!!!
Ah well, another week, another walk!!

I'll update proceedings this week when they give me a time to get the D/C engineered and fitted!
Have a good week people..

Povman.

[Marty110]

thanks to all contributors, has been very interesting and helpful - checked through my diary and found that my vibration started when I fitted castor correction around same time as LR did pinion seal. My hub to flare measurement is 550mm, too cold and dark to do the rest. Extra weight up front: bullbar, winch with plasma, lights and thats it. I fitted the correction bushes well after the suspension as I had a slight wandering which was fixed by the bushes. Now - do I remove the bushes or get a DC shaft.........

[Drover]

Where is everybody getting their Hub Centre to Flare measurement from ?

Is it the outside point of the flare ? (closest to the hub)

Or

The point that the flare meets the guard (Underside of guard) ?

Seems to be to much difference in these numbers !

[one_iota]

Where is everybody getting their Hub Centre to Flare measurement from ?

Is it the outside point of the flare ? (closest to the hub)

Or

The point that the flare meets the guard (Underside of guard) ?

Seems to be to much difference in these numbers !

I measured both but the measurement I posted was to the outside of the flair. If you add 100mm to that dimension you will get the latter.

[ugu80]

Just a suggestion, talking of measurements, a good measure of how far a lift has moved the front axle across (due to the panhard rod) is to measure from the chassis rail to the inside of the wheel. Measure each side and will show how much the axle has moved without the 'iffyness' of the panel fit.

[Brid]

Here are my Puma 110 figures. I have 130' s Front, and STD rears with Polyairs fitted.
615
450
525
685
The axle to guard clearance is at the high end of those reported (similar to Drover), however the difference in height of flange centres (front diff & T/Case) is moderate...75mm for mine (cf 144mm for Drover).

I wonder if the engine mounting heights vary a lot to cause such a difference in T/cae pinion heights??

Brid

[Psimpson7]

Some of these numbers don't make much sense. I think there is some confusion on what is being measured to on the wheel centre to arch clearance. Are some people measuring to the lip of the wheel arch (I am) and some measuring to wherethe arch actually meets the metal wing skin?

[Allan]

Some of these numbers don't make much sense. I think there is some confusion on what is being measured to on the wheel centre to arch clearance. Are some people measuring to the lip of the wheel arch (I am) and some measuring to wherethe arch actually meets the metal wing skin?

I measured flare tip to hub centre @ 520.

Allan

[Psimpson7]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1454.jpg

[Brid]

No mistake...615mm from the axle centre to the guard edge (where the flare meets the lowest point of the guard). I had to recheck it myself, in case my glasses were fogged up or something.

Mine is pretty perky in the front with the 130's...no winch, just ARB bar. The rear springs are a bit tired and saggy, and Polyairs might be a bit low with cooler weather, so if sagging rear and perky front, this might explain it.

Cheers
Brid

[Psimpson7]

I still think there is some confusion. that would be a huge lift (5"+) it it was 615 to the same place that everyone else has measured too.

All the other measurements on the other cars are to the bottom of the outer lip (widest point) of the arch.

is that really where yours was too? The mounting face on the arch lip is about 90mm higher up.

Rgds
Pete

[Brid]

My measurement is vertically above the axle centre to the lowest point of the fender panel...directly where the flare meets the aluminium panel. Is that right or have i misunderstood something (it happens)?

Just for comparison the gap between the top of the tyre and the flare above is approx 135mm. What is yours, Pete?

Regards
Brid

[stig0000]

mines a 3" lift and just did the center of axle to out side flear and it was 581mm,

its just a LR bar, no winch,

jsut a thought, that last post, if you measured that, that would take into account tyre size, and since every one is different it has to be center of axle and then u can have 37s or 29s and the measurements are comparable??

[stig0000]

for the record,, this is how i got the measurements,

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1442.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1443.jpg

[isuzurover]

My measurement is vertically above the axle centre to the lowest point of the fender panel...directly where the flare meets the aluminium panel. Is that right or have i misunderstood something (it happens)?

Just for comparison the gap between the top of the tyre and the flare above is approx 135mm. What is yours, Pete?

Regards
Brid

It seems others are measuring to the bottom of the RUBBER FLARE, you are measuring to the top of the flare/bottom of the ally panel.

[povman]

Don't really want to talk about it but, it's getting towed BACK, yet again to LR from ARB to assess the uni rubbing on itself at full droop and a vibration at 50 to 60 km p/h. I'm really over it now and just want my car back.
I'll let you know the outcome once again!
Maybe I should have bought a patrol.

Povman.:(

[TimNZ]

Hi Povman, the front tx box end uni binds on my completely standard 110 when the front axle is at full drop.

Cheers,

Edit: For a more accurate indication of measuring your suspension geometry, (with regards to suspension height changes), can I recommend you measure the bump stop to axle clearance. This will cancel out differences due to tyre wear/pressures, body panel alignment etc.

[Brid]

Stuffed up...sorry to cause the figures. I misunderstood where to measure from as Pete thought. 515mm is my figure.

[LowRanger]

Don't really want to talk about it but, it's getting towed BACK, yet again to LR from ARB to assess the uni rubbing on itself at full droop and a vibration at 50 to 60 km p/h. I'm really over it now and just want my car back.
I'll let you know the outcome once again!
Maybe I should have bought a patrol.

Povman.:(

So Povman,did ARB decide that a double cardan shaft was too expensive to try?

wayne

[Allan]

Don't really want to talk about it but, it's getting towed BACK, yet again to LR from ARB to assess the uni rubbing on itself at full droop and a vibration at 50 to 60 km p/h. I'm really over it now and just want my car back.
I'll let you know the outcome once again!
Maybe I should have bought a patrol.

Povman.:(

I found the vibration was caster related following the lift. The vibration was still evident after it was put back to standard height, was only fixed by removal of caster correction bushes and standard refit. Are your shock absorbers standard travel or the new OME sport +2 inch travel? The latter could be the cause. This is why I fitted standard OME fronts and +2 inch rears, the front shaft is a bake. Very sorry its still not fixed, I know the stess you are going through, I got so close to selling it and would have, but with the noise it made nobody would have bought it. Hope you have better news today.

Allan

[KarlB]

Much earlier in this thread Vlad asked a most important question: "On the other hand why would you NEED to lift a Defender". Vlad is of course talking about a touring vehicle. Nobody has attempted to answered Vlad's question in even a cursory or flippant way, let alone a comprehensive analysis of the issues. There are a range of similar questions that could be asked about mechanically modifying a brand new Defender that is to be used for touring. Important issues include capability, reliability, and cost. To my mind Vlad's question goes to the heart of any lesson we might learn from Povman's dire situation.

Cheers
KarlB

[Allan]

Much earlier in this thread Vlad asked a most important question: "On the other hand why would you NEED to lift a Defender". Vlad is of course talking about a touring vehicle. Nobody has attempted to answered Vlad's question in even a cursory or flippant way, let alone a comprehensive analysis of the issues. There are a range of similar questions that could be asked about mechanically modifying a brand new Defender that is to be used for touring. Important issues include capability, reliability, and cost. To my mind Vlad's question goes to the heart of any lesson we might learn from Povman's dire situation.

Cheers
KarlB

Coldn't agree more, it not a rock crawler/off road race vehicle. I "lifted mine" to compensate for all the weighty item I intended to fit. Draw system winch bar ect. I expected it to return to almost standard height following these items being fitted. But ARB in their so called great wisdom don't point all the facts out when they grab your money. A lot of people go by what these so called experts tell them and and from these posts we can see the consequences

Allan

[Psimpson7]

Much earlier in this thread Vlad asked a most important question: "On the other hand why would you NEED to lift a Defender".

Because otherwise my play tyres remove and reshape sections of my panels. In fact they still do a bit!

[jake]

Having LR Heavy duty springs fitted this week instead of a lift. Hopefully this will ensure my vehicle maintains ride height.

[Allan]

Having LR Heavy duty springs fitted this week instead of a lift. Hopefully this will ensure my vehicle maintains ride height.

It did with mine, wish I had gone this path in the first place, you soon learn.

Allan

[povman]

Ok guys, lets set the record straight!
I went to ARB to get the accessories fitted and one of the recommendations was to upgrade the suspension to take the weight of the bull bar, winch etc!
Now, at no time did I ever ask or direct ARB in any way to RAISE the vehicle..
I was going under their infinite so called WISDOM, ha, and didn't want my car bottoming out or sagging etc.... When I picked my car up, it has a ridiculous lift of 70 odd mm.... Now I'm now expert by any stretch of the imagination but over the last 25 days of not having my car I've done a little bit of research and realized that this is a stupid mistake that they have made for a couple of reasons. 1. Not following OME guide lines about deefers after 98 and double cardan joints etc and also the most obvious one being, Not test driving the vehicle sufficiently when they finished the install...!
It is all now stock standard with OE suspension, including caster bushes etc, STOCK as the day it came out of the factory, but the uni still binds at full droop and a vibration at 50 to 60 km p/h.
Now I'm just putting this out there, but, should I and would you be happy with the uni issue after 4000km on the clock. Some of you are saying that your uni's bind as well and is this acceptable?
It is a 4wd and it is going to be used as a 4wd and the uni's will bind at full droop and each time this happens, it causes just that little bit more stress on the driveline etc. Me personally, I don't think this is an acceptable compromise straight from factory!
By the way, not a word from both parties today.
Povman.

[abaddonxi]

And another one -
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/110433-puma-warranty-issues.html

[jake]

It would be interesting to see how many people have had drive line issues with stock suspension. It is quite concerning but I would be interested to see the number of Pumas with these apparent faults.
I know my TD5 had many issues in drive line but I think this was due to aftermarket suspension at the time.
Povman certainly a costly time for you. Hopefully this can be sorted properley and with good will from LRA. I think our people at Land Rover need to get this sorted and as wel as industries in aftermarket. It is intersting that most dealers pretty much recommend getting aftermarket equipment. Maybe LRA and ARB should get their heads together and support their customers. It would be a win win situation for both if they get the products right.

[Tusker]

With all the measurements we now have does anyone know whether the front & rear shafts are the same/interchangeable with earlier Defenders?

Then we'll know whether a D2 D/C front shaft is a bolt on solution ala TD5, or whether custom DC shafts need to be made for the Puma.

Regards
Max P

[Brid]

I lifted the chassis front end of my 2007 Puma 110 (130 front swprings) with the forklift today, so that the front axle was on full droop. It appears that in my case, the unis are fine. There is over 1/4" clearance within the U-joint at full droop, before any fouling. In fact, it appears that if any further droop occurred, the front end of the propshaft would strike the stabilizer bar before the uni clearance took up.

I had earlier emailed Hardy Spicer, and Ian from the Darra branch kindly offered to drop out and check it...very impressed! He also confirmed that there was no problem with mine.

Maybe it might be worse if with a load weighing down the back springs, but I don't think it would be enough to cause an issue.

So the puzzling thing is where is the variation between Pumas?
Oh! One interesting thing Ian told me...he used to do a lot of work on the Army Land Rovers, and where some had a thick uni flange fouling occurred with the bolt heads (to the transfer output). They ended up machining a recessed platform for the bolts...and this rectified the problem. He indicated if >8mm there could be problems. Maybe another potential fix instead of expensive double cardons, etc!

At any rate I'd give a big plug for Hardy Spicer at Darra if any Brisbane members need help.

Regards
Brid

[lardy]

It would be interesting to see how many people have had drive line issues with stock suspension. It is quite concerning but I would be interested to see the number of Pumas with these apparent faults.
I know my TD5 had many issues in drive line but I think this was due to aftermarket suspension at the time.
Povman certainly a costly time for you. Hopefully this can be sorted properley and with good will from LRA. I think our people at Land Rover need to get this sorted and as wel as industries in aftermarket. It is intersting that most dealers pretty much recommend getting aftermarket equipment. Maybe LRA and ARB should get their heads together and support their customers. It would be a win win situation for both if they get the products right.

Interestingly enough when I was looking at the puma 110 extra cab they(LR) were suggesting that all aftermarket work be undertaken by ARB as if they were an agent of LRA or something. I think this relationship may well be getting strained and Land Rover won't let ARB play with it's toys anymore soon.

[Herbs]

Anyone know if there's been dramas with other brands of aftermarket suspension? I do know that Dobinsons have a full range for the latest Pumas.

[stig0000]

i have a uprated d2 shaft on mine, with bigger unis all round,, i had to get a d2 front out put flange to make it fit, all up $212

[rick130]

i have a uprated d2 shaft on mine, with bigger unis all round,, i had to get a d2 front out put flange to make it fit, all up $212

That seems like really good value.

Stig, can you measure a new Deefer when you service one to see if the shaft lengths are the same as the Td5 ?
It might help some of these fella's with uni issues.

[JohnR]

Heh Rick, Puma's definatly have a longer shaft by 60 or so mm. Pete and I had a good look at his TD5 and my Puma lastnight and really there is no real reason they should be doing this. The only observable difference we spotted but did not measure was that the Puma transfer case apears to be tilted back more than the TD5 case??? This is so weird, I can not see why they are doing it??

Any other theories??

Cheers,

[rick130]

Heh Rick, Puma's definatly have a longer shaft by 60 or so mm. Pete and I had a good look at his TD5 and my Puma lastnight and really there is no real reason they should be doing this. The only observable difference we spotted but did not measure was that the Puma transfer case apears to be tilted back more than the TD5 case??? This is so weird, I can not see why they are doing it??

Any other theories??

Cheers,

I think someone else mentioned that the whole engine/g-box/t-case was at a steeper angle than previous versions, so that'd explain the uni binding at the t/case end.
A minor lift is exceeding the maximum run angle of whatever uni L/R are using.

Sounds just like the cock up they made with the first run of TDCi's where the front prop fouled the sump and in some cases holed it at full suspension droop.

It almost sounds like no actual road/of road testing was done at all.
Maybe it was just all simulated and signed off ? :confused:

[stig0000]

i still have my original prop and its perfict,

il put it up against a puma one and see how it looks, but me thinks its not the props its the tcase position,

we do get alot of 130s have vibration probs, wev done alot of work on some cars and they just vibrate, balanced props, swapped between cars, removed just one, ;);) wev put it down to the rear prop is so long,

[povman]

G'day guys, sorry to keep you waiting with the latest!

OK, where to start........ My last update entailed my car once again going back to LR with absolute stock suspension from ARB.
Got the call to say, Shes all good!
Asked about if it still binds on full droop and got the run around, saying that it's all good and been signed off by LR and if there are any probs, bring it back!
Apparently they removed the front prop shaft and drove it, put it back in and it drove the same.... Good enough for them to sign off on it.
Only catch with picking it up was that LR would not release it until the bill was paid???
Um....... I asked who they expected to pay the bill and the reply was, "Doesn't matter as long as it's paid!!!" Just a lazy $4831.10!
I then proceeded to ask if the t/c damage was caused by the lift from ARB, shouldn't they pay?
"How about I email you the bill" was the reply.... I said "No worries mate, I'll then forward it to ARB and come and pick up my car after 27 days"!
Got the bill and it was in my name, forwarded it to ARB and the reply was, "We can't pay the bill because it's in your name! WTF.... I was then told that LR won't change the bill! I said, "We'll see about that"
Rang ARB back in 5 mins and told them, "The bill is on it's way!" Woo hoo...

Now I have to say I'm not 100% happy with the outcome, but, I do have my car back, it drives ok, it's quite low at the pointy end now with standard susp back in, and it's still covered by warranty.
I'm really happy ARB have admitted fault I guess, by accepting the bill and also reimbursing my suspension costs.

Just wanted to THANK EVERYONE who has given advice on this drama that has gone on for tooooo long.. It really is much appreciated and I hope to repay the favor sometime with my own Deefer knowledge. I will measure my new heights for a comparo with everyone else and I'll post some pics over the next couple of days after I fit the roof rack etc..
Once again, THANK YOU GOOD PEOPLE!:D
A happier Povman...

[rick130]

[snip]

we do get alot of 130s have vibration probs, wev done alot of work on some cars and they just vibrate, balanced props, swapped between cars, removed just one, ;);) wev put it down to the rear prop is so long,

That's odd ?
Plenty of other vehicles have prop shafts that long. My old F100 would have had a prop near a 130's length and the Jeep J3000 I used before it had a 131" wheelbase and no vibes.

I'd be looking at a tiny bit of bearing play in either the t/case output shaft or diff pinion magnifying a problem or any movement at all in the slip splines, or something not centred properly, eg the yoke :confused:

I must be lucky, never really had an issue with the front or rear shafts and I have a reasonable lift.

The worst part of my suspension mods was I had to remove the front anti-roll-bar as the prop shaft would crash into it at full droop.
I at least cycled the front end through maximum bump and droop before hitting the road to save any embarrassment.




Here's an interesting sequence of events.

I had a harmonic like vibe at just on 100km/h and put it down to exhaust resonance. (Tdi, 3" exhaust, only a resonator)
Had the flywheel and clutch assembly balanced and that helped a little but didn't eliminate it.

Installed a very heavy wall muffler (3mm+ thick) and that reduced the vibration a bit more, it worked like a mass damper but it was still there, just.

After swapping out the big ends, no more vibration.

[miky]

May I now suggest that you get LR to fit their heavy duty springs on the front.

Assuming you still want to raise the front back to what it was before fitting bar etc.

[rick130]

G'day guys, sorry to keep you waiting with the latest!
[snip]
A happier Povman...

Good to hear you've finally got your Defender back mate.

It's a shame when someone becomes the unwitting R&D guinea pig.

[rick130]

Just for giggles I'd love to know what the operating angle is on the front driveshaft on the new Defenders.

Anyone have one off ATM they can run a digital inclinometer over ?
You'd need to run a straight edge across the t/case output flange and sit an inclinometer across it and then hook the shaft up and sit it on the front prop shaft.
Subtract 90* and there's your operating angle.

[JohnR]

Just for giggles I'd love to know what the operating angle is on the front driveshaft on the new Defenders.

Anyone have one off ATM they can run a digital inclinometer over ?
You'd need to run a straight edge across the t/case output flange and sit an inclinometer across it and then hook the shaft up and sit it on the front prop shaft.
Subtract 90* and there's your operating angle.

This is a really good question. I will be swapping front prop shafts in a few weeks so I can make the measurements then if nobody comes up with them beforehand.

Povman, good to hear you got your car back. I am amazed ARB paid it. Hats of to them for taking the bullet.

Cheers,

[spudboy]

Glad it's 'mostly' sorted out. I reckon you were pretty lucky that ARB picked up the bill, and good on them for that. Expensive lesson.

[MacFamily]

Good to here you got your Defender back Povman, doubt ARB will be fitting many more suspension kits to defenders (Puma's) now.

Its bad that this has happened but for what its worth your experence will help others who decide to lift there Puma's in future (well those that read this forum).

Hope you enjoy your holiday/defender now Povman

[Allan]

Hey Povman, glad you've got it back. I'm up in Skycity Darwin sat next to the pool reading Australian 4x4 test of a Puma 90 and guess what they suggest - a set of muddies and wait for it........... a two inch lift. Bet he doesn't read this forum! Glad it all worked out for you.

Allan

[povman]

Hey Povman, glad you've got it back. I'm up in Skycity Darwin sat next to the pool reading Australian 4x4 test of a Puma 90 and guess what they suggest - a set of muddies and wait for it........... a two inch lift. Bet he doesn't read this forum! Glad it all worked out for you.

Allan

Ha Ha, yeah thanks Allan, I read that last night at work and thought the same thing...
If only they knew the potential for damage, quotes like that should really have a warning attached to them..

Povman.

[KarlB]

The whole article on the D90 in 4x4 Australia was poor, probably written by someone who had never driven a Defender before that week. The vehicle was almost certainly one of the LRA vehicles tarted up for the release during the surfing contest earlier in the year. Maybe the author could answer the question why you would want to give it a 2 inch lift. I might add I believe there are situation where you may want to lift the front (or back) of a Defender, to return it to 'normal' levels from a situation where the vehicle has dropped in consequence of adding a bullbar and winch, or similar. With the D90 in the article that situation just does not exist. My 2010 D90 has the identical setup with OEM winch and A-bar. I have standard front springs and it is dead level, with no front drop.

That aside, I am very pleased Povman that it has worked out for you in the end. The out come could have been much worse. I do hope we all learn from your trial.

Cheers
KarlB

[lardy]

Pov glad you held out and got somewhere you felt comfortable with.
There appears to be this horrendous attitude to aftercare in any product one buys these days.
It'a not just LR either I have read similar events on other marques.
Are we such consumers these days manufacturers assume we will just suck it and see? don't they give a rats regarding return trade? that has got to be a very blinkered viewpoint in a customer facing business.
I hope you have many adventures in your puma mate.
Regards Andy.

[farmport]

Read most of this thread with interest. I have an xtreme and I have given it a "real" 2" lift. This means that I have machined aluminium spacers under the spring plates on the front and corresponding spacers for the bump stops. This means that the car is raised from the axle without compromising suspension travel in any way. It also means that the axle moves downwards under full suspension extension another 2" in relation to the transfer case. Under full extension the uni at the transfer end bound up slightly. Grinding a small amount of metal off sorted it, although it should have a hooks(double cardon) joint fitted. It is inevitable that the puma, with its more angled transfer case, is going to have excessive uni angle with any lift and I reckon standard the unis are going to be operating ouside manufacturers spec.

On tailshaft vibration in 130's and defenders. Mine did it as soon as I initially raised it 25mm with King springs. I noted the front unis were at 45degrees orientation not 90 as you would expect. I had the the tailshaft balanced with the unis at 90degrees and alls well. I have since found this is a common fix.

Cheers,

Dave

[isuzurover]

Glad to hear that it is fixed! It is good that ARB came to the party. It would have been nice if the salespeople/store owners were better informed so this didn't happen in the first place.

[povman]

Glad to hear that it is fixed! It is good that ARB came to the party. It would have been nice if the salespeople/store owners were better informed so this didn't happen in the first place.

I agree 100% with you Ben but they were informed in the first place, but chose not to follow the documentation from OME.
The problem only occurred because they have raised many in the past with no drama and became complacent about checking the vehicle properly before handing it back to me!
It would be good to know that a big global company like that would take the time to inspect their products and workmanship before handing it back to their customers.. Surely it would only have been a quick inspection and the problem would have been apparent, according to OME fitting procedures! Time is money so they say, but maybe taking the time to do the job properly in the first place may have saved them and myself a bundle of time and money!!!!

Cheers,
Povman.

[rick130]

[snip]

On tailshaft vibration in 130's and defenders. Mine did it as soon as I initially raised it 25mm with King springs. I noted the front unis were at 45degrees orientation not 90 as you would expect. I had the the tailshaft balanced with the unis at 90degrees and alls well. I have since found this is a common fix.

Cheers,

Dave

The 45* phasing is because the diff pinion points up at the t/case, it isn't parallel with the t/case output as it should be for a normal 90* universal joint phasing.

It's not uncommon to find people with front shaft vibes have had the uni's phased as a 'normal' driveshaft at some stage in their lives and changing it back to 45* fixes things.

A few here have mentioned that sometimes it needs to move a spline either way to really sort things too.

[alittlebitconcerned]

Congrats on a result you are happy with. You seem to have approached it with a cool head regardless of your deserved frustration. I got riled just reading about it so kudos to you!

[bazzle]

After reading thru all this I am of the understanding it is not a fault of any aftermarket suspension lifts at all.
The issue is in the binding of the uni's causing transfer case bearing damage.
If ARB etc shocks are practically the same length as OE ones then nothing has changed where you can blame them.
If a vehicle has a slight bind on droop (failure waiting to happen) then as shock bushes wear, flex etc the issue will get worse down the track.
It looks more to me that there is a mismatch of components in the vehicles caused by poor design/assembly practices.
I would suggest ALL owners lift up the front of their vehicles, both wheels off the ground, and check for clearance/binding.
Any close ones WILL get issues later.

Bazzle

[povman]

After reading thru all this I am of the understanding it is not a fault of any aftermarket suspension lifts at all.
The issue is in the binding of the uni's causing transfer case bearing damage.
If ARB etc shocks are practically the same length as OE ones then nothing has changed where you can blame them.
If a vehicle has a slight bind on droop (failure waiting to happen) then as shock bushes wear, flex etc the issue will get worse down the track.
It looks more to me that there is a mismatch of components in the vehicles caused by poor design/assembly practices.
I would suggest ALL owners lift up the front of their vehicles, both wheels off the ground, and check for clearance/binding.
Any close ones WILL get issues later.

Bazzle

I also agree with you Bazzle,
But there are many Pumas out there with this problem and LR know this, but still get away with not providing a proven fix whilst still under warranty!!!!!
Has anyone really come up with a proven fix for these cars that are right on the edge of being OUT of spec at standard height?
I know a lot of people have gone down the path of fitting 130 springs, but should you really have to in a new car???? Especially at your own expense just to maintain warranty!!!
Food for thought anyway..

Povman.

[rick130]

I also agree with you Bazzle,
But there are many Pumas out there with this problem and LR know this, but still get away with not providing a proven fix whilst still under warranty!!!!!
Has anyone really come up with a proven fix for these cars that are right on the edge of being OUT of spec at standard height?
I know a lot of people have gone down the path of fitting 130 springs, but should you really have to in a new car???? Especially at your own expense just to maintain warranty!!!
Food for thought anyway..

Povman.

A wide angle uni or double cardan joint will be the 'fix'.

A DC joint halves the operating angle of the two universals used in it, the downside is there are two more failure points (the extra uni and the centring bearing) compared to a simple universal at the t/case end.

FWIW 110's were once sold (quite a few Tdi's) with the blue/red-yellow/white 225lb/in springs in Australia, it isn't a 130 only spring setup.
Having said that it's fairly normal to have to fit heavier/longer front springs when fitting a bullbar and winch in any vehicle.

land rover spring specifications (http://members.shaw.ca/jbarge/springinfo.html)

[povman]

[QUOTE=rick130;1310174]A wide angle uni or double cardan joint will be the 'fix'.

Thats fine and I agree that this will fix the problem but, if anyone goes down this path, it WILL void their warranty in LR's eyes and that's what I'm hoping to prevent, other people rushing in and doing this fix without having the full facts at their disposal.
Once again I have only learnt all of this through my own unfortunate experience and through you guys, so I appreciate every bit of advice everyone has given and hope this thread has and will help people make the correct decision before raising their Pumas under warranty..

Cheers,

Povman.

[lardy]

I suggest that all the puma owners with issues go buy cheap bombs,park their land rovers on the forecourts of the local dealership on a saturday with signs in the windows indicating the issues...saturday being a good day due to potential customers should be enmass and they won't have enough staff to move them out the way .....It's outrageous that there appears to be a consistant issue and it can be overlooked as warranty heads south

[KarlB]

I don't read every post on this forum but suggestions that there is a wide spread problem with the Puma universal joints is new to me (I also frequent the more global www.defender2.net (http://www.defender2.net) forum). The only common thread I am aware of is that there is a problem associated with the uni joints and aftermarket suspension alterations. How many people have had uni problems with original suspension and how many people haven't had their problems resolved under warranty?

Cheers
KarlB

[miky]

As I have said before.... if you want to maintain height with bar and winch etc. then get LR to fit the heavy duty springs and you will then be covered by warranty.



.

[povman]

As I have said before.... if you want to maintain height with bar and winch etc. then get LR to fit the heavy duty springs and you will then be covered by warranty.



.

Yep, did that yesterday.. LR fitted 130 helper springs in the rear and were going to put 130's in the front but they are still waiting on 1 spring to arrive from the UK.
Povman.

P.s heading off on the big trip tomorrow morning.. Will post some pics with the old girl loaded up later..

[KarlB]

Have a great trip Povman. Looking forward to seeing the photos.

Cheers
KarlB
:)

[miky]

Have a great trip Povman. Looking forward to seeing the photos.

Cheers
KarlB
:)


x2



.

[Allan]

Enjoy your trip Povman.

Allan

[povman]

Here she is fellas.. Loaded to enjoy the next 7 weeks!
Thanks for the well wishes too people..
Hope to see some members around in our travels.

Povman:D

[isuzurover]

Looks great! Have fun!

Suspension is a bit low at the front though isn't it?:eek:;):D:wasntme:

[spudboy]

Fitout looks good PovMan.

What's your rough itinerary, and how long are you away for?

[JohnR]

Looks great! Have loads of fun, enjoy the car!

Cheers,

[NQExplorers]

Magic stuff - she looks a million dollars. Have a good run. Warren.

[povman]

Fitout looks good PovMan.

What's your rough itinerary, and how long are you away for?

Thanks spudboy,
We are leaving Melb and heading straight up to Port Augusta, Marla, Ayres Rock, Kings Canyon etc, Alice, Katherine, Litchfield, Darwin, Lorella Springs, Normanton, Cloncurry, Longreach, Rockhampton, Brisvegas then home.
7 week round trip.
Can't wait and am now stuffed after cleaning the car then packing her to the rafters...
Catch ya, sleep beckons, 3am start!!!!!

[lardy]

Thanks spudboy,
We are leaving Melb and heading straight up to Port Augusta, Marla, Ayres Rock, Kings Canyon etc, Alice, Katherine, Litchfield, Darwin, Lorella Springs, Normanton, Cloncurry, Longreach, Rockhampton, Brisvegas then home.
7 week round trip.
Can't wait and am now stuffed after cleaning the car then packing her to the rafters...
Catch ya, sleep beckons, 3am start!!!!!

How can that be right you didn't even mention dropping in for a cuppa in perth ???!!!
Looking good mate looking good!!!

[NOZ]

Dragging up an older post here ;), but my 2011 Defender has this 2" lift vibration, did anyone try the D/C tail shaft ? if so did this fix the problem ?

[dullbird]

Dragging up an older post here ;), but my 2011 Defender has this 2" lift vibration, did anyone try the D/C tail shaft ? if so did this fix the problem ?

ask the question on a UK forum you may get a quicker answer as it appears a number of people in the UK put a DC shaft in...or at least that is the impression I got after billing.

[NOZ]

ask the question on a UK forum you may get a quicker answer as it appears a number of people in the UK put a DC shaft in...or at least that is the impression I got after billing.

not big on the UK forums, any you would suggest ?

[dullbird]

try defender2.net

also

land rover owners magazine they have a forum too.

and I'm sure that devon 4x4 had done it to their car as well so maybe even scoot them an email.

i'm sure one or two members on this site has done it as well but more likely to get a better hit in the UK...

try googling double cardon TDCI and see what comes up

[NOZ]

thanks for that


Defender2 - View topic - 2" OME Lift (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic359.html?highlight=vibration)

[NOZ]

Well off to ARB today, Roger Vickery is over seeing what needs to be done, but as said on many other forums and posts he has suggested a D/C front shaft and maybe castor corrections as well.

Be an interesting day

[Drew90]

Well off to ARB today, Roger Vickery is over seeing what needs to be done, but as said on many other forums and posts he has suggested a D/C front shaft and maybe castor corrections as well.

Be an interesting day


Let me know how it goes mate, cheers

[Drover]

Hey NOZ,

Have you seen this thread on Defender2

Defender2 - View topic - Megga Prop (front) (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic5905.html)

Looks like a few problems with this brand of DC Shafts.

I am interested to see how you go. My PUMA has a OME 2" lift but I have not had any vibrations or other problems, but would be interested in DC shaft before they come (touch wood)

Cheers

Cheers

[NOZ]

Rodger Vickery from ARB is going to get Driveline services to make me a DC tail shaft if it comes to that.

It is still at ARB at the moment and they are trying a few things with springs and shocks to see if this will sort the problem without going to the expense of a custom DC.

I am waiting on a call from them anytime soon.

[NOZ]

Ok well, ARB fitted slightly lighter and lower (10mm) front spring and the vibration has gone away.

The fron prop shaft still has bind up on full droop and this will need to be sorted by way of DC shaft or maybe a bigger wide angle uni.

So we are off to MR Automotive (Land Rover guru's) on Thursday so they will make there assesment and a final fix will be done.

Dave and Roger at ARB Nundah have been fantastic, never once have I felt like they would did not want to solve the problem.

VOTE 1 : ARB NUNDAH

[Nera Donna]

I don’t know if anyone has subgested this lot before? Might help some, maybe too late for others.
Props (http://www.gwynlewis4x4.co.uk/page36.html)


Cheers
Craig

[NOZ]

this is where mine is coming from


Tom Wood's Custom Drive Shafts - Tom Woods Custom Drive Shafts Custom Driveshafts Specialist (http://www.4xshaft.com/)

[NOZ]

m r Auto had alook at it today, so a D/C is on order

[wagoo]

It is interesting to me that a propshaft with a double cardan joint on only one end would cure vibrations without adjusting the diff pinion angle so that the angle of the single universal joint is no more than 3 or 4 degrees.
If it works it works I guess, but the text books I've read say it shouldn't.
Wagoo.

[NOZ]

I will soon let you know ;)

[rick130]

It is interesting to me that a propshaft with a double cardan joint on only one end would cure vibrations without adjusting the diff pinion angle so that the angle of the single universal joint is no more than 3 or 4 degrees.
If it works it works I guess, but the text books I've read say it shouldn't.
Wagoo.


Bil, i know what you are saying but from what I've read on here the problem with the Tdci engined/Getrag 'box equipped Defenders is that the entire driveline is angled more acutely than previous versions, so the stock uni at the t/case is running at pretty much maximum operating angle all the time.

If you lift the chassis a teensy weensy bit it looks like it all goes to hell in a handbasket, the uni binds and so they either need a DC or wide angle uni to fix it the problem.

I can hear Land Rovers answer already "The car is 'perfect' as it left the factory, why do you need to modify it ?"

[newhue]

Bil, i know what you are saying but from what I've read on here the problem with the Tdci engined/Getrag 'box equipped Defenders is that the entire driveline is angled more acutely than previous versions, so the stock uni at the t/case is running at pretty much maximum operating angle all the time.

If you lift the chassis a teensy weensy bit it looks like it all goes to hell in a handbasket, the uni binds and so they either need a DC or wide angle uni to fix it the problem.

I can hear Land Rovers answer already "The car is 'perfect' as it left the factory, why do you need to modify it ?"

I'm interested in raising mine. I have heard after market springs can ride harsh, and I kind of like the factory bounce.
So I was considering spring spacer blocks. It's cheaper, and I don't have to play with coil rates, just the shocks and a DC shaft.

Any thoughts on spacers

[rick130]

Spacers are fine if your only after a small lift, OME use packers to trim out any ride height discrepancies in their suspension installations, just don't be too ambitious.

Also remember that whatever gain you have in static ride height you will lose the corresponding amount of suspension droop as your working suspension travel is unaltered unless you address damper open/closed lengths, and then you need to look at lifting the front towers, changing the rear upper mounts, etc.

That goes for any lift where droop travel/damper lengths isn't considered.
ie, any spring lift too.

It isn't totally true that all aftermarket springs are a stiffer rate than OE, but most are.
eg. Les Richmond Automotive in Victoria, I think Dobinsons in Qld and I'm sure there are others, will set up a vehicle for the best outcome for you, usually with softer but longer coils, unless you really are overloading the vehicle.

[newhue]

Thanks Rick,

If I did replace the coils I was thinking Lovell coils, and either Bilsteins, Koni, or Lovell shocks. It's a bit of a mind field as many suppliers know very little about Land Rovers. I have 500kg of accessories, carry 250 to 500kg daily or for expeditions. I have heard several times Lovells hold there height well, but sometimes come with a bit more lift than expected.

It sounds like going cheap on coil spacers is to no advantage after the towers and mounts are factored in.

[TonyC]

I'm interested in raising mine. I have heard after market springs can ride harsh, and I kind of like the factory bounce.
So I was considering spring spacer blocks. It's cheaper, and I don't have to play with coil rates, just the shocks and a DC shaft.

Any thoughts on spacers

Hi Jason,
If your happy with the ride, what are you trying to achieve with the lift, and how much are you hoping to lift it?

Tony

[newhue]

TonC,
It's all pondering at present, but we plan to do a fair bit of desert and long haul travel in the future.
We are considering some sill tanks, and because the 130 is a long vehicle I was thinking it may need a 2" lift to keep the cars off road prowess. Now in the desert a sill tank banging on a dune doesn't matter, but we not opposed to sticking it into some rutted gully either on a weekends camping trip.

I like the feel of the original coils, and don't really want to replace it with a harsh one because I replaced the suspension.

[PAT303]

I'm taking the same route with mine.I want to keep a supple ride to cope with corrigations but need it to handle the weight on the front for a winch and bar.I was going to leave the rears and fit airbags but the front needs a 40mm lift to get it even and the next weight up spring,I'm not fitting a bullbar but a winch bumper to reduce the load.I read somewhere about disco's having a rubber spacer between the spring and mount and that will help also with the harsness,whatever way I go I want secondary/dirt road stability and comfort over wheel travel etc and a set of correctly valved bilsteins to suit. Pat

[rick130]

Be a little careful with Lovells off the shelf springs for a 130 as they used to be quite a bit heavier rate than stock in years past.

I'd happily use Lovells springs wound to my specs, they used to wind a very good spring (they were the Eibach importer/distributor for a number of years until Eibach set up their own warehouse in Australia. Eibach are one of the top three or four spring manufacturers in the world as far as quality and consistency are concerned)

[TonyC]

TonC,
It's all pondering at present, but we plan to do a fair bit of desert and long haul travel in the future.
We are considering some sill tanks, and because the 130 is a long vehicle I was thinking it may need a 2" lift to keep the cars off road prowess. Now in the desert a sill tank banging on a dune doesn't matter, but we not opposed to sticking it into some rutted gully either on a weekends camping trip.

I like the feel of the original coils, and don't really want to replace it with a harsh one because I replaced the suspension.

Hi Jason,
I too drive a 130 and it has a sill tank, my home stomping ground is the Vic High Country, and while I no longer go looking for the hero tracks, I've never tuned back due to a lack of clearance.

Here is a link to a good list of Land Rover springs, it's been around for some time now so I don't know how current it is. I think the springs in your Puma are the same as my Tdi but I'm not 100% sure.
land rover spring specifications (http://rovers.red90.ca/springinfo.html#RS)

Les Richmond have a good range with some long soft springs.
Coil Springs (http://www.lrautomotive.com.au/contents/en-us/d665.html)

How ever you set it up I hope it all works well for you.

Tony

[KarlB]

All the aftermarket sill or belly tanks I have seen fitted have their bottoms almost level with the chassis rails so don't compromise ground clearance except in the most exteme situations. Here is a picture of the one on the drivers side of my D90 showing the chassis below the fitted tank:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

I must admit that I haven't taken note of a sill tank fitted to a D130, however.

Cheers
KarlB

[rick130]

All the aftermarket sill or belly tanks I have seen fitted have their bottoms almost level with the chassis rails so don't compromise ground clearance except in the most exteme situations. Here is a picture of the one on the drivers side of my D90 showing the chassis below the fitted tank:

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/3681/auxtank2.jpg

I must admit that I haven't taken note of a sill tank fitted to a D130, however.

Cheers
KarlB

The LRA one I have tapers up towards the sill, I'll grab a piccy later (if I remember)

[dlatn]

I encountered similar problems to Povman but in reverse when I dropped my Puma 90 3 inches. The vibrations from the t/c were so bad that they nearly rattled the UV lights bars off of their chassis mountings.
When I took it back to the outfit that lowered it (no name, they were good in the end), they suggested 24 inch rims with pimping rubber, and apart from now having to slow down for speed bumps, I haven't had any problems since.

[cal415]

Interesting reading this thread, i have been playing quite a bit with puma suspension, interestingly enough my 130 has had a noise similar to what povman described and some vibs since new, without worrying to much about it i let it go waiting till the first service because it wasnt anything major, after fitting a bullbar the noise had almost gone and over time since then it stopped all together.... but since then i have had a bit of a play with the suspension and noticed that bringing it back up to the height from before the bullbar install has brought this noise back - remember i am only talking about the height the standard LR heavy duty springs in the 130 gave me.

After a bit of playing i found that the amount of noise was directly related to the height i had on the front end, and realised the sag from the bullbar initially was what stopped the sound the first time around not just the gearbox/tc wearing in as i had originally thought.

I have since pulled the front drive shaft out and the noise/vibs have completly disappeared, upon inspection of the drive shaft i have found some signs of minor binding and rubbing in the uni's which was supprising as i had never ran more then about 10mm over the height it sat at when i first picked it up. I was going to try a d2 shaft i had access to and after going to the trouble of pulling it out i found out about, as mentioned in this thread, the length difference...

After comparing a d2 shaft, a d1 shaft and the puma shaft i have to say the puma shaft looks like its just slapped together in a hurry, although they have bigger uni's they have alot less angle available compared to the other 2, which have scallops out of the flanges to avoid bind etc where the puma shaft has nothing like this done.

I am waiting on a new DC front shaft that i had already ordered a few weeks ago which i should hopefully have next week sometime, so i will see how i go and will post up what i have found.

Back to Povmans original post, i find it interesting that LR say they found a failed bearing, did they show you this at all? its more likely they just swapped the transfer and never bothered checking the old one at all, so ARB were probobly lumped with a bill to replace a transfercase that had nothing wrong as it was likely only the crap drive shafts LR supply all along causing the problem.

[Drover]

I have a 50mm lift and had a vibration around 90-110km/h.

Replaced the front prop shaft with a heavy duty, 30 degree, Bailey-Morris D/C unit - problem gone.

Now smooth as....:D

[dullbird]

I'm thinking I might change out our prop shaft as well before our big trip..I have seen a post somewhere but where are people buying them from in the UK??? might take a look with the exchange rate..

Part numbers would be good also if anyone has them...save any confusion

[chook73]

I'm thinking I might change out our prop shaft as well before our big trip..I have seen a post somewhere but where are people buying them from in the UK??? might take a look with the exchange rate..

Part numbers would be good also if anyone has them...save any confusion

I have the bailey morris DC shaft, simple as giving them your year and model and VIN number and a week later it arrives.

Bit smaller joints but only time will tell, so far it feels great

[cal415]

I'm trying to organise some locally built very heavy duty ones using Italian made 1350 series uni's as used on the front puma shaft already but a better quality setup with much wider angles, rather than using a d2 size dc joint with smaller uni's, let me know if your interested in one will be dearer then an imported one but will be about as durable a drive shaft as you will get.

[Drover]

Hey Dullbird,

As Chook73 said you will just need to supply your VIN number it will arrive on your door step about a week later.

Uni's are 1310's plenty big enough, without doubt. All fully grease-able.
Here's the link, I dealt with Stuart via email - to easy.

Cheers

Bailey Morris Limited - 4x4 Extreme Land Rover (http://www.baileymorris.co.uk/4x4.asp)

The PUMA shaft is the brown one pictured.

[dullbird]

I'm trying to organise some locally built very heavy duty ones using Italian made 1350 series uni's as used on the front puma shaft already but a better quality setup with much wider angles, rather than using a d2 size dc joint with smaller uni's, let me know if your interested in one will be dearer then an imported one but will be about as durable a drive shaft as you will get.

Cal it really depends on how much dearer, an when your looking at doing it because we go away in July...I'm not fitting for a lift I'm fitting for some piece of mind really...and I have to say I'm curious as to whether it would help with the on off throttle judder/rattle we have.

[dullbird]

Hey Dullbird,

As Chook73 said you will just need to supply your VIN number it will arrive on your door step about a week later.

Uni's are 1310's plenty big enough, without doubt. All fully grease-able.
Here's the link, I dealt with Stuart via email - to easy.

Cheers

Bailey Morris Limited - 4x4 Extreme Land Rover (http://www.baileymorris.co.uk/4x4.asp)

The PUMA shaft is the brown one pictured.

You sure its the brown one? so you guys have not just gone with the wide angled prop then you have actually put on a double cardon joint.

Can I ask for a ball park figure of these?

I think someone else got one from Devon4x4.

[chook73]

Yep dc for me

[Marty110]

Hi, just for info - I used a D2 DC shaft and had it lengthened and balanced by Hardy Spicer in Adelaide. After about 10K with these I think there is a bit of movement developing in the unis and in the slip joint. I have since read on this site of problems with strength/longevity of D2 shafts - live and learn I guess, or do better research. I would second time around go with getting Hardy's to make a shaft from scratch - it may be dearer but if it works and has a long life who cares? It will be cheaper and less trouble in the long run.......

[Drover]

You sure its the brown one? so you guys have not just gone with the wide angled prop then you have actually put on a double cardon joint.

Can I ask for a ball park figure of these?

I think someone else got one from Devon4x4.

Definitely the brown one, Definitely the a Double Cardan joint, the brown one is the 30 degree D/C shaft with the larger 1310 uni's.

These shafts are not the same as a D2 shaft - period.

Quoted as taking more torque than a stock PUMA shaft.

Price from memory was about $600AUD's delivered.

Cheers
Grant

[Drover]

...and I have to say I'm curious as to whether it would help with the on off throttle judder/rattle we have.



Hey Dullbird,

My vibration was only off throttle or on the float at about 90 -110k’s

The float is that balance between accelerating or decelerating.

The D/C shaft cured it straight away.

Cheers
Grant

[cal415]

Hi, just for info - I used a D2 DC shaft and had it lengthened and balanced by Hardy Spicer in Adelaide. After about 10K with these I think there is a bit of movement developing in the unis and in the slip joint. I have since read on this site of problems with strength/longevity of D2 shafts - live and learn I guess, or do better research. I would second time around go with getting Hardy's to make a shaft from scratch - it may be dearer but if it works and has a long life who cares? It will be cheaper and less trouble in the long run.......
Exactly my reason for wanting to go to the 1350 uni'd DC joint and super heavy duty spline... longevity!
I had my old d2 shaft rebuilt a few times, and had uprated uni's, but they still didnt last.

Lou, the shafts i am looking at will be around the 850 mark unless we get a few more people in on it then maybe 800, can also do the rears using the same bits minus the DC for about 650, or if you want a rear DC as well it will be same price as fronts. I dont mind paying the extra for a shaft that will last a long time, and i am supporting a local business that's always done good by me.

[Drover]

Originally I bought a grease-able D2 shaft from "Brit-Part" to suit a Defender.

Turned out it was to short for the PUMA, thats why I got the Bailley-Morris.

The uni's in the D2 shaft were smaller that the 1310's in the Bailly-Morris, not sure what size they were.

[dullbird]

Hey Dullbird,


My vibration was only off throttle or on the float at about 90 -110k’sThe float is that balance between accelerating or decelerating.

The D/C shaft cured it straight away.

Cheers
Grant


Yep same but I cant describe mine as a vibration as you can feel the judders through the car and hear the knock and rattle when it happens

[dullbird]

Exactly my reason for wanting to go to the 1350 uni'd DC joint and super heavy duty spline... longevity!
I had my old d2 shaft rebuilt a few times, and had uprated uni's, but they still didnt last.

Lou, the shafts i am looking at will be around the 850 mark unless we get a few more people in on it then maybe 800, can also do the rears using the same bits minus the DC for about 650, or if you want a rear DC as well it will be same price as fronts.
I dont mind paying the extra for a shaft that will last a long time, and i am supporting a local business that's always done good by me.

Thats fair enough but I cant justify supporting local when its a difference of 250/300 dollars....I don't have cash like that to throw around I take months to save up for this sort of stuff that difference will buy me a small fridge for the camper or my desk I really need for my computer...

[Rusnut]

I'm trying to organise some locally built very heavy duty ones using Italian made 1350 series uni's as used on the front puma shaft already but a better quality setup with much wider angles, rather than using a d2 size dc joint with smaller uni's, let me know if your interested in one will be dearer then an imported one but will be about as durable a drive shaft as you will get.








does he make them for a 90

[cal415]

Hey Dullbird,

My vibration was only off throttle or on the float at about 90 -110k’s

The float is that balance between accelerating or decelerating.

The D/C shaft cured it straight away.

Cheers
Grant
Where you also hearing some noise with this?

I was also getting some vibes accelerating about that speed up hill, now with the front shaft out thats gone, theres still a chance my issues are transfer case related, in which case my car will be returned back to the way it was and take a trip back to land rover - i know without a doubt that my playing with the suspension hasn't caused this, as it was there since day 1. Also the fact that i can see marking on the drive shaft from rubbing, only very minor, but it shouldn't be there at all points to a shaft problem.

[cal415]

Rusnut, he will make them for what ever is needed, just work off the same price, if you decide to do it you will need to supply your shaft lengths and he will make them. I will hopefully have the first one in the next few days and will post some pics.

[cal415]

Thats fair enough but I cant justify supporting local when its a difference of 250/300 dollars....I don't have cash like that to throw around I take months to save up for this sort of stuff that difference will buy me a small fridge for the camper or my desk I really need for my computer...
My main reason for doing this is longevity, i know these will outlast the others without a doubt and that 200-250 dollar difference will make up for itself in the long run. If you change your mind more then happy to point you in the right direction.

[dullbird]

I'm not disagreeing with you at all in terms of stuff being heavy duty... considering we have never damaged a prop on any of our vehicles I would say we would be fairly safe upgrading to a unit that isn't as tough as the ones you are making. its still going to be tougher than the one we have.

The puma is only a tourer the only reason for fitting as my car is not lifted is purely to see if it helps that problem and if it does in tern help with longivity of the gearbox and transfer case..which I'm sure is taking a lashing being on its limits of angle.

Thanks anyway though Mick....:)

[cal415]

You have never replaced a uni then?

[Bush65]

Or perhaps Lou has never had a uni failure do serious colateral damage. Often the yoke or tube is also damaged requiring a new shaft. Front shafts, particularly with double cardans can take out the gearbox.

Edit: disregarding worn uni-joints, I've had 2 unis fail while driving.
1. (not in a Land Rover) bent tailshaft, cracked the gearbox case and damaged floor
2. (rangie) bent tailshaft and tore most of the mount for the A-frame from the top of the diff pumpkin

[dullbird]

You have never replaced a uni then?

Never had a uni fail no, have replaced a uni after 100,000k's of work Yes but I call that general maintenance not a failing prop shaft.

[cal415]

Finally got my new 1350 uni'd tailshaft on, havnt tested it much yet, but i have noticed in the short test run i did no noise at all even running the suspension set at around 4in lift..... More testing to do yet but all good so far.

[masmia]

Don't underestimate the poor Land rover design engineer who probably cant respond to criticisms of the Defenders UJ clearances for legal reasons. But let us assume he is a professional automotive engineer charged with improving an ageing body/ chassis and installing a then state of the art engine gearbox and also matching this to an older transfer case design. Then installing the whole box and dice into the existing old body/chassis. There are going to be compromises .
For one he must make the design work for a multitude of purposes ie, varying road surfaces , varying inclines /declines , load carrying, keeping the vehicles appearance the same and yes comfort.
He cannot place designing for a multitude of aftermarket add ons and aftermarket suspension companies above his core brief.
It is my view it is the responsibility of the aftermarket supplier to engineer its products into the vehicle and TEST them.
So when a bulbar/winch is sold for any vehicle this engineering has been done and an advisory is attached ie, ?we advise that heavy duty front springs type xxxx are required to correct the effects of this bulbar will have on your vehicles suspension.? End of story.
Looking thru these posts it is plainly obvious that minimal correction is best , which illustrates the soundness of the original design.
I have just installed a Landrover bullbar similar to ARB, to my Heritage 110 and do not intend changing anything. There will be another 500kg in/on the vehicle for my upcoming Simmo trip and may loose a few mm's in wheel travel but will keep the vehicle otherwise standard for comfort and reliability reasons.
Let you all know how she goes.