PC vs Mac

[mowog]

I decided to test the Mac vs PC debate myself.

I started looking for a cheap secondhand Mac on Ebay and made a few attempts at a couple of older Power Mac's. I am surprised at the prices some people will pay for these things.

I ended up finding an intel based MacBook Pro for a bargain price from a guy at work.

Job 1. Put Mac OSX 10.6.* on it done.
Job 2. Put Adobe Lightroom and photoshop elements on it.

Both jobs done...

Myth 1. Mac's are better for photographic work.

Simply not true based on my experience with 2 of the most common photographic tools in use today. The functionality on both is the same.

I cant really compare performance in processing tasks here as my desktop PC is an i7 with 12gb of ram running 64bit win7. The MacBook Pro is 2.5 Core Duo with 4gb.

What I can report on is that a Mac Pro desktop to the same spec's as my PC is well over twice the price of my PC. And I didn't buy cheap parts on my PC. It has a quality alloy case and a good motherboard, video card and ram.

Myth 2. Mac's are easier to use.

Now I took my time on this one getting use to the Mac and quirks around right click and some other Mac quirks. Easier to use not really at the end of the day both Win 7 and the Mac OSX are both easy to use.

Things I do like about the MacBook Pro.

Compared to my Toshiba laptop....

The MacBook Pro is very well made.
The screen is very nice as is the screen on my daughters 27" iMac.
The MacBook Pro starts very quickly.
I do like the magic mouse.
Like all Notebooks the Trackpad on the Mac is tragic.

Would I spend the dollars on a new Mac desktop or laptop? Not likely.
Would I buy another used Mac. I thinks so as a used item they seem to be good value for money.

[Lightweight]

Hi Mowog,

Good comparison, the Toshiba notebooks are solidly built so a fare comparo. What are the resale on those notebooks like? Is the 2nd hand market for PC based laptops any good? It never made much sense to me that the Apple laptops had such good resale... Actually it never made sense that any consumer electronic device has ANY resale...

Do yourself a favour and learn a few of the bash commands and unleash the true power of a *nix based system and you may never return to Windows.

[Scallops]

Have you used a Mac much previously to this experiment? The reason I ask is that you might change your opinions as you gain more experience using the Mac.

Some of the other "myths" you might like to test are things such as - does it ever require a reboot, do you have issues with virus/malware etc.

Anyhow - good post - I look forward to hearing what you think longer term. :)

[mowog]

My day job is as Software Tester specialising in Automation. So I get use to new systems/software pretty quickly.

I have had about 3 weeks with the MacBook Pro, and before that I helped my Daughter with her iMac.

I do like the MacBook Pro I just dont see any improvement over my PC experience.

Both PC and Mac are excellent systems. The debate for "me" comes down to a value based thing.

When I was looking for a new desktop I did spec a Mac Pro based on the same level I was looking at in a PC. You would have to be pretty hard core Mac to want to spend over twice the money for the Mac Pro.

My observations here are based on my experience and requirements. Others of course will have different requirements / experience.

[clubagreenie]

Experiment with how long you can leave it running without a reboot vs windows. I have a 2.4ghz core 2 duo that apart from 2 power failures (and it's set to auto restart) has never been off. And as said bash commands FTW.

[mowog]

Some of the other "myths" you might like to test are things such as - does it ever require a reboot, do you have issues with virus/malware etc.

Anyhow - good post - I look forward to hearing what you think longer term. :)

Did you know Mac slipped an anti virus program in with 10.6.* this not an advertised feature but it is there.
I have had to use Force Quit on a number of applications.

Reboots... My Win 7 64 bit PC only gets reboots for updates. A well built PC with well matched components running a properly patched OS is pretty stable. The problem in the PC world is the number of components and varying quality along with the simple user abuse that causes unstable systems. Mac have an advantage here in that they have some control over the components. To some this may also be a disadvantage as Mac tend to charge a little to much for additions.

[Scallops]

Did you know Mac slipped an anti virus program in with 10.6.* this not an advertised feature but it is there.
I have had to use Force Quit on a number of applications.

Reboots... My Win 7 64 bit PC only gets reboots for updates. A well built PC with well matched components running a properly patched OS is pretty stable. The problem in the PC world is the number of components and varying quality along with the simple user abuse that causes unstable systems. Mac have an advantage here in that they have some control over the components. To some this may also be a disadvantage as Mac tend to charge a little to much for additions.

I didn't know - that's just the point - I don't have to do anything! ;)

As for force quit - I've never needed it - so I guess different machines, different experiences - just like PC's. My PC was nowhere near as good an experience as is my Mac, so personally, I'm happy and glad I bought it.

[abaddonxi]

For me it came down to Thinkpad vs. Macbook. Went the Thinkpad for the keyboard. Not always about the OS.

[mowog]

For me it came down to Thinkpad vs. Macbook. Went the Thinkpad for the keyboard. Not always about the OS.

Thats the point I am trying to make.

They are both good systems and it simply comes down to what your needs are.

[Xul]

I'm not sure on the photographic point but from an audio recording point mac wins hands down in my opinion.

One of the main reasons I love my Mac is that it doesn't get clogged up with as much crap as a PC.

From the audio recording point of view again, I paid roughly 1200 for my base model macbook (with 1g RAM) a few years ago and it does audio recording better than my 1800 dollar PC.

Maybe I've been unlucky with PC's as well but I've had 3 die in the ass over the years, usually with serious motherboard failures, which means that you often have to buy a whole new computer with how often new sockets etc. come out these days.

Don't get me wrong, I still love my PC - it certainly has its advantages but I prefer the usability on my Mac. Heck I have bootcamp with xp and it runs better than natively on a PC!

[mowog]

Xul,

This is where user requirements come into play. Not everyone has the same needs.

[tony66_au]

Thats the point I am trying to make.

They are both good systems and it simply comes down to what your needs are.

Exactly, I used to look after a number of dual environment commercial entities running both PC and Mac and for years pooh poohed Mac's as a solar powered propeller head armadillo hat option because i found it weird and unfamiliar and yet played with AIX and HP_UX machines all the time.

And then I bought a Mac as an experiment, a cheap $100 PPC eMac, upgraded to 1 gig of ram with a new DVD burner, bought a legit copy of OS X 10.4 and started from there.

It was initially my Wife's machine and used on the internet for mail, blogging and so on.
Then I loaded Gimp and later Seashore, VLC and Xee so I could do stuff on the Mac that I was doing on my IBM Notebook and as I became more and more familiar with OS X and I realised that it was as close to a mainstream GUI Unix as id ever get.

I still have that machine, im on it now actually and I also have a Windows 7 Mini notebook (Intel Atom) I use and Ive got to say that if Apple had remained on the PPC processor path instead of going to Intel then id probably be a full convert to the Mac way but with things having gone the direction they did?

My next Mac will be a second hand G4 or 5 PPC powerMac.

I did recently play with one of the new Power Macs and it was very pretty but fairly close to a PC so I couldn't really see the point in buying one and went Windows 7 instead.

However it is very much horses for courses so if you feel the need to explore?

Buy a cheap 2nd hand unit and play, don't be frightened... you know you want to...................

Tony

[disco2hse]

I realised that it was as close to a mainstream GUI Unix as id ever get.

That is probably because it is. Unix that is. Certified and everything.

[written from a PPC dual G5]

[tony66_au]

Which is why its so much fun I guess, and what a lot of people dont realise is that Unix is "the standard", the OS that everyone copied including Windows although its a lot less obvious since Windows NT.

Either way I don't know why I didn't do this years ago.

[Outlaw]

I will point out though Mowog that the 'myths' you are playing with could be more likely referred to as 'urban myths' as they do have a substantial footing in reality but just embellished.

You are comparing the latest mac with the latest offering system from windows. Now continue doing that experiment back over the years and see how much of a 'myth' it is ;)

Everything is subjective :)

[mowog]

You are comparing the latest mac with the latest offering system from windows. Now continue doing that experiment back over the years and see how much of a 'myth' it is ;)

Everything is subjective :)

There is truth in what you say. However I dont see to many people down grading their Mac's or PC's to older hardware.

I think the "current truth" for a given quality/configuration a PC presents a compelling value for money argument. The Mac's do have brillant displays and you do pay for that.

Going forward there will be room for both in my kit.

The MacBook Pro will become my Travel PC replacing my Toshiba in that role. My Toshiba is my workday laptop as I need a Windows based PC for my actual real job.

However for my Desktop System I just dont see the value in buying a Mac Pro, When I can get the same power/quality/functionality(for me) at half the cost.

I dont buy off the self PC's I look for the parts and spec a good system that way.

[incisor]

a good graphic artist using the same software on a mac will outproduce what they can do on a pc many times over using the same software.

there is a reason why so many use it... apart from the perceived **** factor.

but for the average joe blow with limited knowledge your right there is little difference per see and falls in to the realms of a ****ing competition..

[JohnF]

Main problem with the Mac is that all the Mac users keep telling me their Mac's are better than my $280 Samsung laptop, the Mac users often telling me this with an evangelistic zeal for the Macs.

Also some applications I want to run, e.g. E-sword do not give support for Mac users.

[Xul]

Main problem with the Mac is that all the Mac users keep telling me their Mac's are better than my $280 Samsung laptop, the Mac users often telling me this with an evangelistic zeal for the Macs.

Also some applications I want to run, e.g. E-sword do not give support for Mac users.

I agree that many Mac owners love to push how awesome their macs are over a cheaper PC, I don't agree with this though.

You would be surprised what a Mac can run though, for example your program "E-Sword". This will run perfectly on a Mac through Crossover (best money I have ever spent on a program).

Compatibility - Tips & Tricks - e-Sword - CodeWeavers (http://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/browse/cat/?app_id=1459;tips=1)

[Delta_Farce]

I think Windows 7 has helped the PC world a lot. The user account control stuff is a nod towards Unix, if not quite as robust. A step in the right direction though.

I've been a PC user for a long time, and have moderate experience in Linux. I've used Mac's sparingingly but I find them harder to use because of my background in other systems. The GUI is obciously different, but the variances in terminal behaviour and the location of things makes that different enough to cause frustration too.

Some things are a lot easier to do with a Mac if you know how to do them. I had one experience in trying to mount a *.dd file. The Mac wouldn't have a bar of mounting the image using the Linux method, and forums weren't much help. The fix ended up being so easy (yet completely counter to what you would do with Windows or Linux) that I was pulling my hair out.

Horses for courses though. Windows 7 is my preferred desktop environment, and I have a Linux server for all the things I don't do on my desktop (web server etc). Works well for me :D

[discomuzz]

... A well built PC with well matched components running a properly patched OS is pretty stable...

You may be correct. But, how many hours of fuffing about do you need to get this stability?

IMHO, you get this straight out of the box with Macs. No patches. No search for matched components. And the OS is FAR more stable than anything I have ever come across on PCs.

You can buy them online and know what the heritage of the machine is.

It's worth the extra dollars in the end.

I am sick of 'playing' with P.C.s.

[LoveMyV8County]

Unfortunately the PC software I use every day won't run on my Mac... the antivirus software haha.

Jokes aside, the OP made lots of good points, it's horses for courses. Have to say that Ubuntu on my Atom-based netbook boots with incredible speed, faster than my MacBook Pro, and my PC is way slow in comparison.

My kids love the 4yo iMac, they are music students so it worked for them. Ex-wife uses the PC only so that kept the family from arguing.

Have to say that now that Steam is available for Mac I am happy! Yay! Now if only the ATO would port e-Tax, which sadly does not work for me under Crossover.

[incisor]

e-tax is being dumped now anyway...

[weeds]

im a computer numpty and upgraded to a mini mac and have never looked back. . .no more pcs for me. . .have not done a thing since taking it out of the box apart from upgrading to snow which was easy as

[stuee]

I've got to inform the industry I'm in to start using mac. They sound like the bee's knee's :o

[tony66_au]

I've got to inform the industry I'm in to start using mac. They sound like the bee's knee's :o

:-P

Thats what Apple does though, they grab an existing product and innovate.

Take the latest Mac Daddy gadget, the iPad.

iPad is a tablet PC, a concept thats been around for years and many of the Laptop makers had/have them.

Well Steve jobs and co made it better, trendy and cheap!

They did the same with PDA's and the Apple Newton, Sony Walkman/Discman and the iPod and in regards to out of the box computer solutions for both Numpties and PC savvy users you still cant beat Apple and yet many have tried.

Dell are still trying, IBM tried for years and gave up, Gateway had a cow trying and died for their sins and yet Apple still does it day in day out.

I personally find it hard to explain why I became a convert without foaming at the cakehole and that's because my level of experience is unique to me having been in at out of I.T. since the early 80's and DPS systems.......

But what I do tell people is to TRY the product, go and chat to the local Apple authorised dealer who will sit you down and talk to you while you test drive a system in the store and provide you with a sales and after-sales service.

I also tell them that Ive rebuilt my laptop and friends PCs on 20 different occasions this year due to viral issues or issues caused by anti viral/Anti Spyware/anti malware/Registry cleaners etc etc and yet my old eMac running no Anti virus etc hasnt been touched since I upgraded to OS 10.4

Whoops, im frothing again :-)

Tony

[disco dan]

ive had both PC and Mac first was the pc and it was great until it started jamming up and having to re BOOT it. then after a while 6 months it just died. i contemplated a imac when they first came out and based on value for money it was more expensive but liked the all in one system and the immunity to viruses.

if i had the choice now i would spend the extra and get a mac mainly due to i still own the same computer and have not had one single problem with it or its software. never had to reboot, no viruses, no waiting ages before it decides to start.

my new saying is "once you go MAC you never go back"

as for pcs they are great to i use them where i work and have renewed them 2 so far in 4 years. so i have found in my experience that the macs are more reliable.

just my 2 cents

dan

[Fish78]

You can run Mac OS on a modern PC if you like, Mac hardware is essentially the same as PC now under the hood.

[stuee]

a good graphic artist using the same software on a mac will outproduce what they can do on a pc many times over using the same software.

there is a reason why so many use it... apart from the perceived **** factor.

but for the average joe blow with limited knowledge your right there is little difference per see and falls in to the realms of a ****ing competition..

Most of the comments here are pretty clear. Basically Mac is easier to use for those not so tech savy (read less mal ware and virus's about, harder to change core OS settings, and an enforced consistent interface among all prgrams), those who want the perceived stability, or prefer the interface over windows. Your comment on the other hand really doesn't do anything for the Macs but make out Mac users to be arrogant.

I even went as far as googling why macs are better for graphic design, and the google consensus is that now days with current software and hardware platforms they're pretty much even, and a lot of the sentiment dates back to days when the graphical tools available on macs dominated those on windows and the hardware was better tuned for a graphical design environment.

So please enlighten me as to why any "good" graphic designer can produce more on a mac than a PC?

[incisor]

if me stating what i have have found to be the case is arrogant than so be it..

you might want to try ringing a few decent sized bureaus and getting it from the horses mouth seeing it is so offensive coming from me ;)

[stuee]

if me stating what i have have found to be the case is arrogant than so be it..

you might want to try ringing a few decent sized bureaus and getting it from the horses mouth seeing it is so offensive coming from me ;)

Dont see it as offensive, just arrogant. You've just stated a conclusion without any argument to back it up what so ever. Your obviously in the field and would appear to know what your talking about, be nice if you could share it so its clear to me as to why productivity is increased on a mac over a pc using the same software.

I've already googled with no solid arguments (read: only the usual Mac hysteria) supporting your claims, but its not that important enough for me to ring up companies over it. I'm happy to be proven wrong though ;).

[MacMan]

I even went as far as googling why macs are better for graphic design, and the google consensus is that now days with current software and hardware platforms they're pretty much even, and a lot of the sentiment dates back to days when the graphical tools available on macs dominated those on windows and the hardware was better tuned for a graphical design environment.

So please enlighten me as to why any "good" graphic designer can produce more on a mac than a PC?

1) Built in colour management.

2) No faffing around with hardware. Buy box, plug it in, start work. Just the same as a plumber who doesn't want to have to spent 25 minutes under the bonnet of his work ute twice a week.

3) Hardware does not fall over. OS does not implode. Before you say I'm biased, I always have a PC in the studio.

4) The hardware is neat and quiet. See above comment.

5) I've use both platforms, and I consider the Mac file management system for handling jobs with lots of editions and linked files vastly superior. Dealing with a 200 page document with 12Gb worth of links means that little delays and annoyances handling files become major ones.

6) The operating system doesn't have to contend with thousands of different possible hardware configurations. Updates roll out smoothly. See comment #3. I prefer to be able to buy a piece of software (Adobe CS stuff) and know it will work on my machine with the OS in hand, rather than have to hope/pray it will work on an up-to-date PC with a decade old OS (XP) on it because the newer ones (Vista) are as useful as mammaries on a male bovine.

7) The machines start up way faster than any PC i have at the time. See comment #3.

8) Keyboard shortcuts for OS and design software are better ergonomically. Think it's petty? Spend a full working week using them and see which you prefer. See comment #3.

In short, I've been a Mac user for 15 years and reluctantly retain a PC, mainly for web proofing on Internet Exploder and undoing all the wonderful things people do with Microsoft Word before I import the text. I would go kicking and screaming back to PC land. As far as I am concerned, any premium paid on the equipment at purchase is well worth it for lack of disruption or additional cost with IT support. Not everyone wants to have to know how to fly the space shuttle in Unix or terminal your ISP up the ASP using the dongle and patch blah blah. I prefer to be able to do my work, not hold up my clients and then get on with my life.

[Ferret]

I also tell them that Ive rebuilt my laptop and friends PCs on 20 different occasions this year due to viral issues or issues caused by anti viral/Anti Spyware/anti malware/Registry cleaners etc etc and yet my old eMac running no Anti virus etc hasnt been touched since I upgraded to OS 10.4

Whoops, im frothing again :-)



For the life of me I have a hard time understanding what people do to have so many problems.

In the 25+ years I have used Windows / generic hardware I have had to 'rebuild' my gear because of these sorts of issues exactly '0' times. I have had personal experiences with exactly 2 virus and one of those was back in the days of DOS.

I work for myself, ie my own business. Among the strings to my bow - I write software, either for myself in the course of the consultancy work I do or directly for the client, so I am completely depended upon my computing equipment functioning reliably otherwise I don't make money. If I had even a tiny fraction of some the problems people claim to encounter in the PC vs Mac debate I would be switching to something else tomorrow. It is not like there is no alternative to either Windows or Mac.

Getting involved in the PC vs Mac debate is always futile because like religious debates you will never convince the other side of the supposed superiority of your brand or your god.

I saw this article some months back, I think it has some bearing on the argument.

the summary Mac vs PC People: Personality Traits & Aesthetic/Media Choices (http://blog.hunch.com/?p=10124).

the full article Mac vs PC People: Personality Traits & Aesthetic/Media Choices (http://hunch.com/media/reports/macpc/)


For who don't want to read the articles here are pictures which sum up the findings of the survey.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/07/39.jpg
PC People are down-to-earth team players who enjoy sports, practical design, and mainstream media

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/07/40.jpg
Mac People trend towards retro design, bold colors, an appreciation for objects which express their individual identity, and "media with a message"

[philco]

Hi Mowog,

Good comparison, the Toshiba notebooks are solidly built so a fare comparo. What are the resale on those notebooks like? Is the 2nd hand market for PC based laptops any good? It never made much sense to me that the Apple laptops had such good resale... Actually it never made sense that any consumer electronic device has ANY resale...

Do yourself a favour and learn a few of the bash commands and unleash the true power of a *nix based system and you may never return to Windows.

Interesting thread, My wife has a Toshiba Satellite, had it for about 3 years.
It has crashed at least 7 times, had the mother board replaced 3 times, the screen replaced 2 times, the hard drive replaced 2 times and contents recovered.
Toshiba just wouldn't replace it.
She is so sick of it !
it crashed again last week so she went straight down to Robina Apple store and bought a 15 inch Mac Pro !
She loves it, wont go back to a PC based computer again.
She will divide the hard drive and have windows 7 on half and Mac OS on the other, need the windows for work and MYOB.
She is so looking forward to using it.
We have 2 Macbooks, one I use and the other our son uses for school etc, we have had them about 9 months, we love them, never had a problem.
I am left handed so i find the Mac so easy to use, as if it was made for me.

[inside]

I switched from a Mac to a PC a few months ago. The PC was a lot better value and Win 7 isn't too bad at all, however if I was looking for a laptop I'd check out the Macs again.

[tony66_au]

For the life of me I have a hard time understanding what people do to have so many problems.

In the 25+ years I have used Windows / generic hardware I have had to 'rebuild' my gear because of these sorts of issues exactly '0' times. I have had personal experiences with exactly 2 virus and one of those was back in the days of DOS.



I can answer that query for you, Quite simply.

Kids, Kids who load crap, surf crap, bypass warnings, ignore common sense, Limewire, Bearshare, Torrents, USB sticks from school, pirated crap on CD, in email, MSN, Hotmail.

Then theres sites they just HAVE to visit and google searches that lead them astray.

But wait, theres more!

And the reason I went to Mac after fixing IBM clones or PCs for 20 something years in large corporations, Financial institutions and sadly Private schools, looking after server farms and running a total solutions company is because Mac works, OS 10 works, the old Power PC architecture worked and I don't know about the Intel stuff but id bet that it works too!

Simple as that, No fuss, no bother just a steep learning curve and on my part the swallowing of my pride and the balls to admit I've been wrong about Apple for all these years.

And yes its an emotive issue not unlike the whole farcical Holden Versus Ford chest thumping garbage which im immune to because I like Valiant's!

So now I sit, I push the little button on the side of my eMac and shortly there after I am rewarded with dependable function.

The other thing to bear in mind is this, IF you are just an average person looking to buy a computer for your kids, and you are not aware of the pitfalls of cheap motherboards, garbage cases and nasty components then Apple takes out the guess work.

From a commercial standpoint?

I had a site that had 600 or so users and 200 of them were Mac stations.
I ended up looking after all 600 on a contact maintenance basis and hired a Mac guy to hold up that end of the SLA and apart from when the time came to upgrade we barely put a hand on them apart from replacing Mice and keyboards.

On the PC side we had well specced units, intel chipset MBs and all the good fruit and yet we still had a few swap outs a week.

My next Mac will still be a PPC based machine, 2nd hand and probably a dual G4 or 5.

I also recently bought an Intel Atom notebook running Windows 7 and its a lovely bit of gear, I suspect Microsoft finally got it right but I still predominantly use my old Mac and im going to continue to use Macs for the foreseeable future.

Coz they work.

Tony (Frothing again)

[discomuzz]

... those who want the perceived stability...

Nothing percieved about it!

It's a fact.

This is the point.

So, after 30 years using, etc. PCs I now use a Mac.

The best thing about it is that it works every time I turn it on and stays on until I turn it off.

[stuee]

1) Built in colour management.

5) I've use both platforms, and I consider the Mac file management system for handling jobs with lots of editions and linked files vastly superior. Dealing with a 200 page document with 12Gb worth of links means that little delays and annoyances handling files become major ones.


7) The machines start up way faster than any PC i have at the time. See comment #3.

8) Keyboard shortcuts for OS and design software are better ergonomically. Think it's petty? Spend a full working week using them and see which you prefer. See comment #3.


These would appear or reasonable arguments. I'm not sure how colour management differs from a windows environment and haven't worked with files in the format you describe so I'll take your word on that too.

Machines starting up faster, while it could be argued, is inevitable. Many software vendors install some sort of start-up software which periodically checks for updates or waits in the background till use. Many do it unnecessarily (why does itunes need a background service to check for updates??). You can control what's running at start-up but that obviously detracts from the usability.

Keyboard shortcuts are handled by the software. Its bizarre that a software vendor will use two sets of keyboard shortcuts for the same software on different platforms but if you say so.




2) No faffing around with hardware. Buy box, plug it in, start work. Just the same as a plumber who doesn't want to have to spent 25 minutes under the bonnet of his work ute twice a week.

3) Hardware does not fall over. OS does not implode. Before you say I'm biased, I always have a PC in the studio.

4) The hardware is neat and quiet. See above comment.

6) The operating system doesn't have to contend with thousands of different possible hardware configurations. Updates roll out smoothly. See comment #3. I prefer to be able to buy a piece of software (Adobe CS stuff) and know it will work on my machine with the OS in hand, rather than have to hope/pray it will work on an up-to-date PC with a decade old OS (XP) on it because the newer ones (Vista) are as useful as mammaries on a male bovine.

In short, I've been a Mac user for 15 years and reluctantly retain a PC, mainly for web proofing on Internet Exploder and undoing all the wonderful things people do with Microsoft Word before I import the text. I would go kicking and screaming back to PC land. As far as I am concerned, any premium paid on the equipment at purchase is well worth it for lack of disruption or additional cost with IT support. Not everyone wants to have to know how to fly the space shuttle in Unix or terminal your ISP up the ASP using the dongle and patch blah blah. I prefer to be able to do my work, not hold up my clients and then get on with my life.

You can buy a box from the likes of Dell that will fire up and run straight out of the box, and as mentioned before I don’t know what you’re doing to make the PC fall over and implode?? We run servers and workstations that get rebooted 4 times a year for patching and software updates, otherwise they stay on the whole time.

The OS having to contend with thousands of hardware types means the cost is kept low. Again buying from the likes of Dell means you have a system that’s been validated on the OS you want to run and with the volume associated with dell means it will be supported for a fair while.

XP is now a very stable platform if a little slow. That’s why we still use it on the workstations. No one’s going to argue that Vista wasn’t a complete dog but Windows 7 is a vast improvement and as mentioned goes a long way to address some of the flaws which allow it to be undone.

I’m sure if you had 15 years as a dedicated windows user your view would be different on a lot of points. In the process control industry we also pay a premium for hardware that’s been thoroughly tested prior to going to a plant. We want it to run too because a days downtime can cost up to $15 million in revenue if we have a catastrophic failure. Funnily enough there’s next to no Mac usage in this industry either, and reliability is a big thing.

While I disagree with some of what you say, you’ve got some valid points as to why you think Mac’s are better in graphic design, and if they’re enough reason to use Mac then fair enough. I'm not trying to say Macs are crap (excellent design and marketing amongst other things), just dispel some of the hysteria around PC's. Blanket statements along the lines of Macs are better than PC's full stop are just rubbish, especially when many of the arguments are now dated and irrelevant.

[stuee]

Nothing percieved about it!

It's a fact.

This is the point.

So, after 30 years using, etc. PCs I now use a Mac.

The best thing about it is that it works every time I turn it on and stays on until I turn it off.

Apologies that point came out poorly. It was meant to be a comparison to the stability of Windows, being that Mac is perceived as being more stable than windows, not Mac is unstable in itself. I would argue that Windows PC is just as stable, but then I don't have kids playing with my PC and installing junk from the net or downloading things they shouldn't be.

[tony66_au]

Stuee bear in mind that more often than not the acts of sabotage by kids are unintentional, they dont head out to bugger up their PCs and I found that it was more ignorance and cultural differences.

Ignorance on the part of the supervising parents and the cultural gap between parents and kids.

Ive also put cheap 2nd hand Macs in low income families to get them on the net for a few hundred dollars and they rarely miss a beat.

PCs are a minefield, you HAVE to know stuff to use them hassle free or have a tech on hand.

Macs are dill proof but should you choose to do so you can harness the power.

Tony (Who said good riddance to I.T. a while ago)

[Tombie]

I switched from a Mac to a PC a few months ago. The PC was a lot better value and Win 7 isn't too bad at all, however if I was looking for a laptop I'd check out the Macs again.

Define better value for a complete PC vs a complete iMac please ;)

iMac 21.5" ~ $1500.00

PC depnding on whose MB, RAM etc is in it + Monitor = anything from $600-infinity...


TCO on the units? I would bet my left nut the Apple unit will be running strong in 5 years, and that the OS will support current software and hardware...
Not like the opposition which often up specs software to the point Vid Cards etc are required to be upgraded (amongst other bits and pieces).

Mac power supply 241w does it all...

Average PC now has in excess of 600w in case + monitor consumption..


Productivity software for each?
PC = Office so Stundent to full can be $150 - $500 (approx)
MAC = iWork $129.00


I think "value" has been misrepresented :wasntme:

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Well I find for people who aren't IT workers macs are generally a revelation for them. All of a sudden - they can do stuff on their computer. Also, from a family support network perspective they are a godsend... I've converted my family and I've basically gotten rid of my support obligations.

I'm told windows 7 is a huge step up for MS, but still this is only a recent thing. Also, if you want the full house version that matches the OS X functionality it's pretty pricey. I think my upgrade was only $30.

Apple phone support is also **really** excellent. Their extended warranty is pricey on the laptops but not too bad on the desktops - and is well worth it to get three years of phone support.

[MacMan]

Machines starting up faster, while it could be argued, is inevitable. Many software vendors install some sort of start-up software which periodically checks for updates or waits in the background till use. Many do it unnecessarily (why does itunes need a background service to check for updates??). You can control what's running at start-up but that obviously detracts from the usability.

Every PC that has been in family eventually turns into a 5 minute coffee grinder, furiously processing something for that time between pressing the power button and actually getting to do something. Gets old fast. I have no idea why. I don't want to know why. I want to use the thing not give it dynamic psychotherapy.


Keyboard shortcuts are handled by the software. Its bizarre that a software vendor will use two sets of keyboard shortcuts for the same software on different platforms but if you say so.

They do have different setups. I won't bore you with minutiae but I know what I prefer. Even the OS keyboard shortcuts are better for me in Mac land.



You can buy a box from the likes of Dell that will fire up and run straight out of the box, and as mentioned before I don’t know what you’re doing to make the PC fall over and implode?? We run servers and workstations that get rebooted 4 times a year for patching and software updates, otherwise they stay on the whole time.


My mother had two Dells and they both went the same way. The first was running XP and turned into a coffee grinder. The second was a Vista machine that she wished she never bought. I tried to convince her to get a Mac because of the last Dell/XP coffee grinder but she feared change. That thing managed to completely stuff itself and lose a fair bit of data with non-hardware related failures. She had a number of phone support sessions with Dell where someone got into the machine via telnet and did things but after the 3rd implosion she bought a Mac. Never been happier because now she can just turn it on and work. Her latest Dell box is here with Linux on it. Unless she has a hardcore net porn addiction she's concealing, as far as I know all she ever did was read emails, tinker with quilt software and Photoshop and surf quilt and dog websites.



The OS having to contend with thousands of hardware types means the cost is kept low. Again buying from the likes of Dell means you have a system that’s been validated on the OS you want to run and with the volume associated with dell means it will be supported for a fair while.

True, in theory, but not in our experience. In the end, no better than any other PC I think. You still need to be tech savvy or lucky or insulated to stop them grinding to a halt or crashing into the mountain.

[mowog]

You may be correct. But, how many hours of fuffing about do you need to get this stability?

IMHO, you get this straight out of the box with Macs. No patches. No search for matched components. And the OS is FAR more stable than anything I have ever come across on PCs.

You can buy them online and know what the heritage of the machine is.

It's worth the extra dollars in the end.

I am sick of 'playing' with P.C.s.

I don't have to fiddle or fluff with my PC. It was stable out of the box.

Mac and Patches....

This MacBook Pro I got needed over 1gb of patches when I plugged it in...
Then I upgraded to 10.6.* and it need all those patches again?

Thats 2gb of downloaded patches...

Our Windows PC's have their patches managed by a sever at home so patches are only downloaded once.

I didn't start this thread with intension of saying either system is better. But it looks to have degenerated to that.

I actually like both systems.

[stuee]

I didn't start this thread with intension of saying either system is better. But it looks to have degenerated to that.

I actually like both systems.

Its just healthy debate :p (and nothings easier to stir up then a Mac user)

I have no problem with Mac's either, just the superiority complex that comes with them:wasntme::p.

At the end of the day its all good for the consumer because its making MS and Apple improve their products in a big way.

[abaddonxi]

I think a lot of it comes down to the user.

I have a friend who has been breaking Macs on a weekly or monthly basis for the last ten years. I think he has the Mac equivalent of Ron's ability to buy faulty goods.

So much so that his wife bought a PC so he wouldn't mess with it.

Guess which one performs without a problem.

[tony66_au]

I think a lot of it comes down to the user.

I have a friend who has been breaking Macs on a weekly or monthly basis for the last ten years. I think he has the Mac equivalent of Ron's ability to buy faulty goods.

So much so that his wife bought a PC so he wouldn't mess with it.

Guess which one performs without a problem.


Ahhhh yes................

Now you are on to Computer Personalities and you've mentioned what I call The Hardcore Fiddler.

The fiddler is best characterised as one who can not leave anything alone and is on a constant quest to improve their gear with software/hardware and yep, even firmware fiddles and upgrades.

They also have a stack of free software from PC User mag and similar and absolutely HAVE to apply any New OS, upgrade or service pack as soon as it is released.

[mowog]

The fiddler in me wanted to add another monitor to the PC. I have 2 already. So the goal was monitor number 3 (now maybe 4)

My boys are techno junkie updaters. So In their reject pile was a Nvida 9600gtx PCI_Express card.

How simple was this... Open side install the card start the PC. And waited for Win 7 64 bit to short its self out. In about a minute it was sorted and settled.

2 cards with 2 different GPU's both happy together.

[tony66_au]

The fiddler in me wanted to add another monitor to the PC. I have 2 already. So the goal was monitor number 3 (now maybe 4)

My boys are techno junkie updaters. So In their reject pile was a Nvida 9600gtx PCI_Express card.

How simple was this... Open side install the card start the PC. And waited for Win 7 64 bit to short its self out. In about a minute it was sorted and settled.

2 cards with 2 different GPU's both happy together.


*GROAN!*

Maybe im a Luddite?

[dbs]

Just to add to debate. Would you compare a RR P38A Autobiography to a suzuki mighty boy and expect the same experience.... so why compare a Mac to a Dell... Insanity!

If you are comparing then compare like for like... Mac Vs IBM T60 think pad is more likely a reasonable choice. I think you'll find that if you spent the same amount on a PC of quality brand as you do on a Mac it will just work.

As far as easy for the non tech savy? I have just as many just as many people come to me and say how do I do this on a Mac as I do a PC on a ration comparison to the number of Mac people to PC people I deal with. They are not easier,.. they are just different (but not by much)

when I ask someone to present a business case for the purchase of a Mac over a PC it usually involves a single line... They're cool! Sorry but that doesn't make them better... an alpha is cool but will still breakdown ... constantly.

I deal with corporate graphics suppliers familiar with both that tell me catagorically (and honestly) that there is no difference to their output.

Mac is inground in the graphics world like PC is in the corporate business world.

I will give you this though.... Apple is better, and I mean way Way WAy WAY BETTER....





at marketing

:twisted:




Buy which ever works for you and don't go with the cheap version of what ever you buy... it's cheap for a reason (hence why Dell products need soooooo much attention)
:wasntme::p:D

[clubagreenie]

I will argue for Dell in the second hand Linux box stakes.

There's a Indian guy at Parklea markets who flogs off 2md hand Dell boxes really cheap. I picked up a GX620 (midi case) for $150-, threw 4gig ram and a 1tb drive at it, another $200- total and a ASUS EAH4650 video card $75- (low profile and low power consumption,VGA/HDMI/DVi out).

Downside is the case size and non upgradeability of the power supply, on the other hand having found a suitable 1gig video card (as above) it makes an excellent media server and also runs RFactor without an issue.

So for less than $450- it sits there and does everything I want including now replacing my dated surround processor since the addition of a 5.1 card.

[tony66_au]

I guess Linux had to come into the discussion sooner or later lol

I just wish id taken the offer to sole distribute Redhat years ago when it was offered to me.......................

[discomuzz]

I will argue for Dell in the second hand Linux box stakes.

There's a Indian guy at Parklea markets who flogs off 2md hand Dell boxes really cheap. I picked up a GX620 (midi case) for $150-, threw 4gig ram and a 1tb drive at it, another $200- total and a ASUS EAH4650 video card $75- (low profile and low power consumption,VGA/HDMI/DVi out).

Downside is the case size and non upgradeability of the power supply, on the other hand having found a suitable 1gig video card (as above) it makes an excellent media server and also runs RFactor without an issue.

So for less than $450- it sits there and does everything I want including now replacing my dated surround processor since the addition of a 5.1 card.

This is all terrific, but I am sick of mixing and matching components and, IMHO, when you get to that stage you pay the extra for a Mac and be done with it!

I have a 20 inch computer/screen sitting on a bent piece of aluminium with one cord plugged into it on my desk. And it doesn't make a sound.

No disrespect clubagreenie.

[discomuzz]

... I just wish id taken the offer to sole distribute Redhat years ago...

Had you done that I would be after you for a refund!

I could NEVER get Linux to work on a PC from scratch and Redhat was the package I bought twice.

[stuee]

Had you done that I would be after you for a refund!

I could NEVER get Linux to work on a PC from scratch and Redhat was the package I bought twice.

Sucks you paid for it. Must've been a while ago, but I haven't actually head of anyone other than corporations buying any of the various distributions of Linux. I've had various versions of both Ubuntu and Fedora (free version of Red Hat) running on 3 different types of PC's.

[clubagreenie]

Hey, you can't argue against Mac for me, we have 4, plus the linux box, 2 win laptops, 3 xboxes, one 360.

[mowog]

My Toshiba laptop is now delayed for parts...

I need a windows laptop for a work project...

So now the MacBook Pro has a personality crisis. I have installed Win 7 32bit via bootcamp.

As a notebook running windows it is nothing special. It is pretty well much like any other intel based notebook.

[Ferret]

So now the MacBook Pro has a personality crisis. I have installed Win 7 32bit via bootcamp.

Does having to get a copy of Win7 for a Mac enter into the TCO equation? :wasntme:

[mowog]

Does having to get a copy of Win7 for a Mac enter into the TCO equation? :wasntme:

I have a Technet subscription so I have access to licensing for testing and evaluation. The Mac is currently running some very expensive software testing tools. Customer Licensing on these tools makes a fully optioned Mac Pro look cheap.

So this Win 7 License came from my pool of 10 keys for Win 7. It also got office 2010 as well the license also came from Technet.

[Ferret]

Probably worth pointing out technet (http://www.winsupersite.com/win7/totw/technet2.asp) offers multiple copies of MS products (ie OS and Office) relatively cheaply to anyone, for non commercial use. ie if you need to upgrade everything at home then this route is most likely cheaper than the normal retail options.

If your a student things may be even cheaper at Its No Cheating (http://www.microsoft.com/student/discounts/itsnotcheating/default.aspx). Win7 Professional at ~$50 and Office Professional at ~$100

Apple probably have something similar. Maybe one of the Mac guys can supply the details for those not aware of how saving can be made for those who qualify.

[LoveMyV8County]

Sucks you paid for it. Must've been a while ago, but I haven't actually head of anyone other than corporations buying any of the various distributions of Linux. I've had various versions of both Ubuntu and Fedora (free version of Red Hat) running on 3 different types of PC's.

Don't get me started... had a staff member who needed Red Hat for work, so I instructed him NOT to download it and bought the distro for $20 on DVD, delivered next day.

Guess what. He decided he knew better and downloaded it, which cost over $200 in metered bandwidth. Then he had the gall to deny it.

Grrr.

[tony66_au]

Re the Redhat Im talking seriously early days here when broadband was newish and sorta before torrents etc.

What you actually paid the $20 for was the tools and manual but it was in short a nice neat little package put together in the time of Shareware on floppy sold at swapmeets lol