S 1, 2, 2a or 3.... Whats the difference?

[tony66_au]

I've had a bit of a look around to see if its been discussed before and couldn't find an answer so here goes......

I've been looking for a Landy project, I had a 2a LWB 24 years ago and for the short time I had it I enjoyed it.

The big question is what's the difference between a Series I, a Series II, Series IIa and a Series III?

I'm not really interested in a County or Defender although I've played with them on behalf of mates who own them and I've got my Rangie anyway.

I understand that they are leaf sprung which is fine by me and probably underpowered which is also fine.

Lack of Synchromesh also doesn't bother me nor does lack of creature comforts and the vehicle will eventually become my daily hack about (I work on a farm).

What im not into is Wide tyres with tread you could cram small kids between, Air con, power steering and 4 wheel drives that cant be hosed out and then driven if the need arises (P38's and Disco's spring to mind) and Doof doosh.
I like Bar tread tyres, split rim's and slab sided utilitarian vehicles.

So I gather Ive got 3 generations to choose from but the question is which best suits my application.

My App.

On and off road driving, light towing and some recovery.
A motorised wheelbarrow for fencing and carting feed.
I do look after my vehicles and try to keep them neat but they are far from trailer queens and get used.

Your opinions please Ladys and Gents!

Cheers,
Tony.

[JDNSW]

Series 1 covers a wide range of changes to Landrovers. They all had flat sides, and the petrol ones had IOE engines, either 1.6 or 2.0l, with 2.0l diesel in 1957 an option. All had pedals through the floor, and all had headlights in the radiator support. The earliest were the 80" and these differ most from later ones, and also had the most production changes. Collectible, and some parts hard to find. These were replaced by the 86" and the 107" introduced. With very little change these went to 88 and 109". Probably the best option for Series 1. The 107" five door wagon is in many respects the most interesting, and quite rare.

Series 2, although looking significantly different with a distinct waist and pendant pedals, is otherwise very similar to the last Series 1, except for the new 2.25 petrol engine, based on the diesel. Series 2a introduced the diesel upsized to 2.25, and marked the start of ongoing progressive change. 1967 saw a change to negative earth and cable operated wipers, key start, and other changes, and about then the six became an option. 1969 saw the headlights move to the mudguards, and the last Series 2a were in 1971.

Series 3 is distinguished from Series 2a mainly by door hinges, windscreen hinges, a plastic grille and plastic dashboard, plus all synchro gearbox,and changes continued. 1979 saw the optional V8 and about 1981 the Isuzu diesel. Last Series 3 was 1983.

My choice is the Series 2a. Note that most mechanical and body parts are interchangeable if not identical from first Series 2 to last Series 3, although traps for the unwary include changes from BSF/Whitworth to Unified threads, to metric threads - but the changeover was still incomplete by the end of Series 3, which still has a few BSF and Whitworth and a lot of UNF.

Hope this helps.

John

[tony66_au]

John, what a pearler of a reply mate!

So it looks like a SIIa or SIII because im not fond of + earth vehicles.

The thread assortment doesn't bother me as most of my stuff is imperial anyway.

So the focus is now on S 2a and S 3.

Cheers,
Tony

[JDNSW]

John, what a pearler of a reply mate!

So it looks like a SIIa or SIII because im not fond of + earth vehicles.
.....

Cheers,
Tony

Changing a positive earth Lndrover to negative earth takes about five minutes if you know what you are doing, perhaps fifteen if you have to follow instructions. I would not let this affect my choice! In any case almost all will have already been changed.

Another point is that Series 3 have an alternator, not generator - but it is a bolt on change for Series 2/2a. Again, many will already have this.

John

[tony66_au]

I guess that any electrical work on a Landy would be minimally invasive anyway and Gen to Alt doesnt bother me because Ive had older cars in the past same as doing external reg conversions for alternators.

Are Landies a full time four wheel drive?

[JDNSW]

I guess that any electrical work on a Landy would be minimally invasive anyway and Gen to Alt doesnt bother me because Ive had older cars in the past same as doing external reg conversions for alternators.

Are Landies a full time four wheel drive?

Landrovers were full time four wheel drive from their inception in 1948 to late 1953. From then until the end of Series 3 production, Series Landrovers were part time four wheel drive except for the V8 and Isuzu engined "Stage 1" Series 3 Landrovers from 1979 on.

Rangerovers and Discoverys have always been full time four wheel drive. The 110, when first introduced in1983, had part time four wheel drive as an option but only with the four cylinder engine (not sold in Australia), although standard was full time, and most were sold this way. V8 and all Ninety and Defender Landrovers are full time four wheel drive.

[d@rk51d3]

Series vehicles are part time 4wd. It's engaged with the yellow knob, and disengaged with the red hi/low knob.

Early s1's had a pull chain to engage 4wd.

[bcj]

series 3 (post 1978?) has inertia reel seat belts, this requiring engineers cert to remove roof or modify cab -pre 78 had different design regs (in NSW anyway)
series3 would be my choice being a newer chassis,bulkhead etc-
Also later series3 have a dual brake circut which can prove usefull when a stump rips off a brake line in a hilly paddock:o
3's have a salsbury rear end in the 109 not sure about 2's
Brett
110 300tdi
109 h/top

[ade30946x6]

Tony, I would say series three is the best value. You have the stronger salisbury rear in LWB models. They have had less years of neglect by virtue of their age. The gearbox is not good, but if money comes into it, these are hard to go past, unless of course you get lucky with an earlier model that has been respected.

[JDNSW]

series 3 (post 1978?) has inertia reel seat belts, this requiring engineers cert to remove roof or modify cab -pre 78 had different design regs (in NSW anyway)
series3 would be my choice being a newer chassis,bulkhead etc-
Also later series3 have a dual brake circut which can prove usefull when a stump rips off a brake line in a hilly paddock:o
3's have a salsbury rear end in the 109 not sure about 2's
Brett
110 300tdi
109 h/top

Salisbury rear axle was standard on Series 3 109s, optional on late S2a 109, but many S2a have been retrofitted with them.

Another point worth noting - While the wheel stud pattern is the same on all Series Landrovers (and 90/110/Defender and RR Classic and Discovery 1), wheel studs were 9/16 BSF from 1948-1971, when they changed to 16mm. Studs are not interchangeable, but hubs are. Also, wheel bearing and stub axles changed about 1980.

Series 3 in Australia almost all had fresh air heaters, earlier Landrovers had recirculating heaters if any, as they were optional from 1948.

John

[Seriestwo]

Series 2's are my choice. The series 2 gearbox is arguably stronger (and i say arguably) and on the farm in 4x4 you will have no issues with axles or diffs if you have a standard engine. If you maintain the vehicle then you should have no issues as they really are bullet proof.

I am not a fan of the "plastic looking" interior of the series 3s, but basically the series 2 and 3s are essentially the same vehicle, with just a few things here and there changed over the years. As said in an earlier post, the early series 2s are closer to a series 1 sharing the same 2l engine and the later series 2a are closer to a series 3.

[jakeslouw]

My PERSONAL choice for a farm hack, occassional camper and general recovery and play vehicle would be a Forward Control, with the following attributes:

- rear flatbed with ISO container holding mechanisms, so that I can swop between dropside, camper body, etc reasonably easily and quickly
- 3.9 EFI motor on LT95 or Auto box, or else a large TDI on a 6-speed manual box
- ENV axles or at the very least Salisbury
- lockers front and back
- double batteries
- monster winch cabled for front & back recovery

Which FC? Well, that depends what you can source where you live. We can't get the FC101 without importing, so for me a FCIIB.

Why flatbed with ISO? Well, for playing around, the biggest issue with an FC is the weight and height. If you remove the rear tub/body, you reduce weight and lower the CoG. You can still carry stuff using discreet tie-down points and ratchets.
Why FC? It's a personal thing. Maybe I'd also like a Mog in the yard. Or a Volvo C303 if I can find one. A Pinzgauer. Ah, so many big 4x4s, so little time and money.

[jakeslouw]

This is the rear loadbed arrangement I mean:

Google Image Result for http://www.military-today.com/trucks/samil_20.jpg (http://www.google.co.za/imgres?imgurl=http://www.military-today.com/trucks/samil_20.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.military-today.com/trucks/samil_20.htm&h=376&w=600&sz=54&tbnid=u1OBCATKOAYHlM:&tbnh=85&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsamil%2B20&hl=en&usg=__LIbryANfSRRx-xSuy5NozkqgR0M=&sa=X&ei=WsxTTMOmOoP48AbupK2PBA&ved=0CC4Q9QEwAw)

Google Image Result for http://www.army.mil.za/equipment/vehicles/Pictures/service_truck_lad.jpg (http://www.google.co.za/imgres?imgurl=http://www.army.mil.za/equipment/vehicles/Pictures/service_truck_lad.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.army.mil.za/equipment/vehicles/Samil_20_Applications_Mk1.htm&h=224&w=400&sz=15&tbnid=IzzwF9Ach7iFjM:&tbnh=69&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsamil%2B20&hl=en&usg=__n-fq8lWsu36xsHNdq91ZiA9iWWk=&sa=X&ei=WsxTTMOmOoP48AbupK2PBA&ved=0CDAQ9QEwBA)

Google Image Result for http://www.alsgroup.co.za/Portals/117/images/ALS%20Companies/ALS%20Manufacturing/Vehicle%20Range/Farming/Full_Scale_Samil_20_Utility_Truck.jpg (http://www.google.co.za/imgres?imgurl=http://www.alsgroup.co.za/Portals/117/images/ALS%2520Companies/ALS%2520Manufacturing/Vehicle%2520Range/Farming/Full_Scale_Samil_20_Utility_Truck.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.alsgroup.co.za/Default.aspx%3FTabName%3DALS%2520Manufacturing%252 0Farming&h=580&w=773&sz=111&tbnid=gWbgLqv8JJ3vKM:&tbnh=107&tbnw=142&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsamil%2B20&hl=en&usg=__U6_YdznJlbEq8TZW-s4DzPacImU=&sa=X&ei=WsxTTMOmOoP48AbupK2PBA&ved=0CDQQ9QEwBg)

Jeez, those are long links, I hope the bulletin board software doesn't crunch them...

[tony66_au]

Ive seen a few Forward control Landies and they are a rare beast here as well, last one I saw was at Freds workshop in Bayswater and it looked pretty good but I suspect the center of gravity is higher than the standard Land Rover which makes it impractical for my place.

I was also looking to use the PTO capabilities for some basic implements such as a small slasher or similar so Id need the rear chassis crossmember hole for the drive shaft but this is a secondary consideration.
Failing that id look into fitting a hydraulic live drive to run, raise and lower a slasher deck.

I remember seeing one on a website somewhere years ago that had been used instead of a tractor on small acreage and it struck me how versatile the things are.

Obviously id have to be careful of the gearbox with a mech PTO drive or keep a few spares.

Interesting that the S II has a better box, my old 2A was quite a nice box to drive and being a LWB I used to cart a bit of stuff around up hill and down dale and the box never gave any indication of popping out of gear and it always sounded pretty good under load.
I went from that to a Diesel Troopy Tojo and it was awful in comparison especially gearbox and transfer case wise.

Worst change I ever made.

[tony66_au]

Series 2's are my choice. The series 2 gearbox is arguably stronger (and i say arguably) and on the farm in 4x4 you will have no issues with axles or diffs if you have a standard engine. If you maintain the vehicle then you should have no issues as they really are bullet proof.

I am not a fan of the "plastic looking" interior of the series 3s, but basically the series 2 and 3s are essentially the same vehicle, with just a few things here and there changed over the years. As said in an earlier post, the early series 2s are closer to a series 1 sharing the same 2l engine and the later series 2a are closer to a series 3.


Id prefer the standard LR engine, some liked the holden option but I always prefer to keep it original, anyway ive seen the axles on Landies and they always struck me as needing a bit more beef.

Besides that im rarely in a hurry and if I do want more than 55 Mph then I guess an overdrive is always an option or a later model 5 speed box.

[JDNSW]

Id prefer the standard LR engine, some liked the holden option but I always prefer to keep it original, anyway ive seen the axles on Landies and they always struck me as needing a bit more beef.

Besides that im rarely in a hurry and if I do want more than 55 Mph then I guess an overdrive is always an option or a later model 5 speed box.

An overdrive is not likely to increase the maximum cruising speed, just reduce the revs at that speed. There is no five speed box that can be fitted without major modifications.

Most varieties of the Holden engine need an overdrive or some other method of changing the gear ratio, as, unlike the Rover engines, they are not happy cruising at high rpm for long periods.

A couple of further differences worth noting. Landrover 80,86 and 88" models have ten inch brakes. 107 and 109 have 11" brakes, and in the case of the six, V8, Isuzu engines, and very late 2.25 engines, the front brakes are wider. Most models have no power assistance on the brakes, although this was optional on Series 3 and late 2a 109, and boosters were fitted after market on some. Converting an 88 to lwb brakes is a worthwhile improvement, as is converting the narrower 11" brakes to the wider ones. If you like very light brakes, adding a booster is worth it, but it is probably not really necessary for most people. A late S3 dual circuit brake system can be fitted to any Series 2/2a/3, although 2/2a will need panel modifications to the inner mudguard.

John

[chazza]

Any of the S1, 2 or 3's would suit your needs Tony, but as I am in the middle of restoring a S1 and tinkering with a S3 (with a view to having a scruffy but legal ute) I can say that the availability of parts for the S2 and 3 is much better, and common service items are as cheap-as-chips. S1 parts by comparison are sometimes harder to find and definitely more expensive.

Whatever you pick, take your time and find one that is more-or-less complete; has little rust and you like. As John points out, they are easy cars to modify to suit your taste,

Cheers Charlie

[akelly]

Here's my .02 worth... All just opinion, so no flames please!

For my money the IIA is the pick of the bunch for an all-rounder. The SI is just a bit too agricultural for everyday life (would you drive a '53 ford or holden as a daily driver?), the SII headlights are practically useless for night driving on main roads and the SIII gearbox is made of cheese (and has a plastic dash that is usually buggered).

The IIA has the best gearbox, lights on the guards so they work well at night, proper metal "dash" facia that doesn't crack in the sun and is still a "hose-outable" proper 4x4. You wont feel like you're driving a museum peice either, which is nice if you want to knock it around. Parts are still easy to get and everything from a SIII bolts right on if you are caught short. The very late ones had the dual circuit brakes from the SIII too.

Cheers,

Adam

[JDNSW]

......., the SII headlights are practically useless for night driving on main roads ........

??? The headlights in Australian Series 2 and 2a are identical until late in S2a production. And the problem is not the lights themselves, but the wiring, which has not improved yet. Adding headlight relays is a major improvement to all of them.

John

[tony66_au]

Im a bit anal about original light positions remaining original but owning a few older vehicles that are not LR or RR Ive done the relay upgrades before for a few reasons, Original Wire gauge is minimum, looms and earth points are usually 20 plus years old (In the case of the Val's 40 years old), switch gear is well used and the whole lot is NOT well fused and protected.

I usually upgrade sealed beams to Halogen H4 inserts with 60/55's with a relay per unit and per filament so 2 relays per side with the original cabling being used to trigger the relays instead of supplying the lights.

Im also not a fan of over wattage on 5 or 7 inch headlights although Ive run 100/55's in the past I now stick to 60/55's and just use plain white (Not blue) globes and leave Xenon's to new cars lol.

[chazza]

For my money the IIA is the pick of the bunch for an all-rounder. The SI is just a bit too agricultural for everyday life (would you drive a '53 ford or holden as a daily driver?), What is "agricultural" about them? Apart from the engine they are essentially the same thing!

... and the SIII gearbox is made of cheese (and has a plastic dash that is usually buggered). I've never had problems with the S3 box but I accept that others may have. The big advantage it has over the S1 and S2's is all-syncromesh, which makes it nicer to use when 1st gear is needed in a hurry. Plastic dashboards cracking don't make the car unserviceable and anyway who cares when as a consolation prize the S3 comes with a heater! :D

The IIA has the best gearbox debatable, lights on the guards most of them don't so they work well at night, ... and is still a "hose-outable" proper 4x4 as are the S1 and S3.



Cheers,

Adam
The worst thing about the S3's are the self-disintegrating rusty door tops; the plastic grill, which is easily stone damaged and the Leyland badge. :( Other advantages are the dual-circuit brakes on some of them and seat belts and mountings. Apart from that there is bugger-all difference - they are all great! :D

Like you Adam I prefer the S2A if I had to make a choice,
Cheers Charlie

[akelly]

Ah, isn't it great when you provide opinions, clearly labelled as such, yet still cop a flogging from those that disagree! :cool: I'll refrain from getting upset, but will respond to one point...

I challenge anyone to seriously argue that there is no difference between a series 1 and a series 2a besides the engine - I can't cop that one on the chin...

:angel:

[tony66_au]

This is why Im asking the original question because based on my limited experience with the 2a I couldnt see much difference between the 2, 2a and Series 3 and Ive got to say that as far as opinions go I very much appreciate ALL of your opinions as it all goes towards a pool of knowledge that will hopefully arm me better when the time comes to go and actually look at Land Rovers.

It will definitely have to be mechanically complete with a running engine from what Ive read.
Brakes not so much an issue, Boosted or not (My current project Val ute has 4 wheel jam tins and no booster) and im used to compensating and drive accordingly.

Electrics im great with (Ive owned Jags lol)

Mechanical im out of my depth and Ive forgotten a lot since I last got my hands greasy.

Id love a LWB, 2 or 4 door wagon and a 2 door wagon would be great.

My 2a had a safari roof (I think this is what they are called) which was a roof OVER the roof and it kept the Landie nicely cool during summer.

I can add a heater and the small 4 outlet hot rod heaters come with a 3 speed fan for a few hundred dollars and some duct work.

Comfort is secondary and im handy with foam and vinyl so I can always make a better bum cushion.

I also dont care what it looks like, my 2a was 4 different colours when I got her and she ended up that Land rover mustardy colour although this time I will probably go olive green.

Now for a big ask, Can you point me towards a website where I can see for myself and more importantly show Jenn my long suffering wife (Who likes Range Rovers BTW) what these old girls look like on the inside?

Or can someone post some pictures.

I resorted to ebay a few nights ago but there was stuff all suitable with decent pics.

Cheers,
Tony

[isuzutoo-eh]

This is the inside of my 2a:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1402.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/04/895.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/03/656.jpg

Hope that helps

EDIT: Mine had a truck cab fitted when the latter two photos were taken

[series3]

Hi Tony, here is my interior ('71 2A SWB). only minor differences as the years rolled by

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1400.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/357.jpg

Fairly Spartan, but I have never really suffered from discomfort in a series Land Rover. The ride is harsh, but I got over it.

[landrover dave]

An overdrive is not likely to increase the maximum cruising speed, just reduce the revs at that speed. There is no five speed box that can be fitted without major modifications.

Most varieties of the Holden engine need an overdrive or some other method of changing the gear ratio, as, unlike the Rover engines, they are not happy cruising at high rpm for long periods.

A couple of further differences worth noting. Landrover 80,86 and 88" models have ten inch brakes. 107 and 109 have 11" brakes, and in the case of the six, V8, Isuzu engines, and very late 2.25 engines, the front brakes are wider. Most models have no power assistance on the brakes, although this was optional on Series 3 and late 2a 109, and boosters were fitted after market on some. Converting an 88 to lwb brakes is a worthwhile improvement, as is converting the narrower 11" brakes to the wider ones. If you like very light brakes, adding a booster is worth it, but it is probably not really necessary for most people. A late S3 dual circuit brake system can be fitted to any Series 2/2a/3, although 2/2a will need panel modifications to the inner mudguard.

John
All factory six cyl 2a & 3 that i have seen have had power boosted brakes ex factory as well as the wider front shoes

[tony66_au]

Bloody grouse shots thanks Gents and Series3's 2a is similar to what I recall mine looked like with a demister setup etc

For what its worth if my 2a hadn't been burnt out I suspect id still have her.

And the olive green seems to be my favourite colour.

[JDNSW]

All factory six cyl 2a & 3 that i have seen have had power boosted brakes ex factory as well as the wider front shoes

Yes, I was perhaps not clear - as far as I know, all dual circuit Series 3 Landrovers had boosted brakes, and the wider front brakes went on all 109s late in S3 production (by which time all Australian S3 had dual circuit, and hence boosted brakes). Boosters may have been factory fitted on all (or all Australian) sixes, even single circuit, certainly they were common.

One point to note about Series Landrovers, is that there were a lot of different configurations available, and some bits changed back and forth in production for no obvious reason. Australian assembled ones tended to have less variation, but at times had noticeable differences to UK ones. Sometimes the parts books note differences occurring at specific chassis number, (but don't count on that being accurate!) but at other times simply says "alternatives". And that is quite apart from the optional equipment catalogue!

John

[Chad]

Are the Widths and Lengths of the Series 2 and 3 the same??

I am looking at Doing a Project on one, and wondering if the guards, front ends, doors etc are interchangeable?

I guess bonnet lengths must be different? as some of the models vary in there grille placement?

Thanks in Advance

[JDNSW]

Are the Widths and Lengths of the Series 2 and 3 the same??

I am looking at Doing a Project on one, and wondering if the guards, front ends, doors etc are interchangeable?

I guess bonnet lengths must be different? as some of the models vary in there grille placement?

Thanks in Advance

All body panels etc are identical dimensions on all Series 2/2a/3 Landrovers, obviously allowing for the different body lengths with different wheelbases, except:-

Firewall is different between four, six and V8/Isuzu.
Radiator support is different for the V8/Isuzu, and for 2/2a with narrowset headlights compared to wideset ones. So are the front panel of mudguards.

Firewalls are Different, Series 2/2a compared to Series 3, due to the different windscreen hinges and dashboard.

Windscreen frames are different for the same reason, but glass is the same.

Doors are interchangeable, but note that the door check arrangements are different between Series 2/2a and 3. Also, door locks changed in late S3, resulting in a hole in the skin for the lock cylinder, earlier ones had a different arrangement, if any lock provided. (but locks are otherwise interchangeable). Series 2/2a and Series 3 door hinges are interchangeable in sets.

Floor panels are different between four, six, V8/Isuzu.

Series 3 front mudguards differ in that the inner guard is further forward due to provision for dual master cylinder.

These are the main differences, other than having holes in different places etc as minor changes were made.

Note that basic shapes and dimensions remain essentially unchanged today - you can fit 1958 Series 2 doors to a current Defender for example. (or vice versa)

This is one of the major advantages of Series Landrovers!

John

[tony66_au]

The interchangeability of goodies is a real bonus with the Landies, now if I could only find a bargain unit that wasn't totally rusted out in the chassis lol